Dexterity Balancing Ideas? (in General)

Chocolate Thunder August 5 2005 7:05 PM EDT

Two quick ideas on how to balance the dexterity problems we are facing:

1) EC should kill twice as much "not natural" dexterity (ToA, Haste) as it does now without having a increased detrimental effect on natural dex. This would be an option for teams not wishing to be strong-armed into using a ToA, while still allowing them to have a tank.

2) Axbow and Exbows should still leach Str and Dex even if they miss. What's the point in having an Axbow if you can't hit the person you are trying to bring down to your size?

Note: Only discuss the two ideas presented... don't start another ToA vs. FF discussion, no one cares.

Second Note: These just sprang to mind now, i haven't thought them through... be kind.

WeaponX August 5 2005 7:07 PM EDT

my kind answer is very bad idea's

Chocolate Thunder August 5 2005 7:10 PM EDT

Great response, saying something is a bad idea without saying why is often found to be useful.

QBRanger August 5 2005 7:20 PM EDT


What dex problems?


I do not like your idea about axbows and enbows leeching Str or Dex if they miss. I could get a nice x50 axbow with no + and put it on my 20 dex enchanter and let him "miss" but still have the axbow/enbow take effect. Ill get 2 in fact, one on each enchanter and let them "miss" at will and still have the drain still take effect.

As you can see the second of your ideas is not viable at all.


The idea about EC is a decent one. Right now vs TOA tanks, EC is not a very viable spell. Having EC take away 2x the normal amount in augmented str/dex might not be so bad.

Chocolate Thunder August 5 2005 7:23 PM EDT

Good point on #2 ranger, it wasn't thought out quite enough.. though cheaper + is still an option.

[T]Vestax August 5 2005 7:31 PM EDT

1) Teams with Haste are far from dominating the game, no need to double nerf them with EC when It's already negated by the current EC and DM already. As for the ToA, if I remember correctly it is not the DX that's being the killer here but the PTH, which a stronger EC can't fix no matter how strong you make it.

2) If you make Axbow and Exbow hit automatically then what happens to those people who use to get double and triple hits? Choosing to ignore whether or not you actually hit the opponent means ignoring multiple hits would also follow. Are you prepared to nerf these weapons by taking away this advantage for those people that learned to improve the accuracy of their xbow.

3) Identify this DX problem first.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] August 5 2005 7:51 PM EDT

Two quick ideas on how to balance the dexterity problems we are facing:

Huh?... DX problems? What are you talking about...

1) EC should kill twice as much "not natural" dexterity (ToA, Haste) as it does now without having a increased detrimental effect on natural dex. This would be an option for teams not wishing to be strong-armed into using a ToA, while still allowing them to have a tank.

You are aware that this would make EC overpowered? EC is a great spell if you use it well... I think there are a lot of people who would agree with that. And making it even better is only going to make things worse.

2) Axbow and Exbows should still leach Str and Dex even if they miss. What's the point in having an Axbow if you can't hit the person you are trying to bring down to your size?

What is the point of having any weapon if you can't hit your opponent? Why should axbow and exbow be special?

Note: Only discuss the two ideas presented... don't start another ToA vs. FF discussion, no one cares.

Second Note: These just sprang to mind now, i haven't thought them through... be kind.

Maybe it'd be a good idea to think it out next time? ;)

Chocolate Thunder August 5 2005 8:16 PM EDT

Forget point 2, it stinks.... but I'm starting to like point 1.

Example Bartlett vs. Imp:

Bartlett has a EC of 313K. This currently drops Dex about 125K.. with this change it would drop it 250K. Imp has 567,012 Dex after his ToA. He would have 300K Dex, still more than a reasonable Non-ToA tank... but hittable now.

Oh and he has about 25% less MPR than Bartlett.... doesn't appear to make EC overpowered to me

QBsutekh137 August 5 2005 8:23 PM EDT

He just got himself a tank, and is facing the issues folks like me faced long ago. *smile* Only CT isn't running away and being a mage killer like me -- he wants it all *laugh*

The issue is that non-ToA tanks are useless. They are only good for being pseudo-walls and mage killers (where even a very low dex can still get you double hits.

Dexterity is key, and CT's OP is dead-on in cutting to the chase. I can plug mages with my weak tank, but will never stand a chance without switching to ToA. That choice is too...abrupt. Do we really want to have absolutely zero options when it comes to tanks other than requiring a ToA? It is my impression that tattoos were meant to multiply the number of options, not cement them at status quo.

There are only two ways for a non-ToA tank to stop a ToA tank: a) get a ToA, thereby nullifying the original scenario, or b) get an uber-plussed axbow (that is where CT's take-away-even-on-miss idea came from.

If there are other ways, tell us. If there aren't, then it means that eventually the ToA folks will dominate the top 6, then 7, then 10...and so forth. If the top guys would stop cannibalizing themselves with needing DM right now and all switch to AMF, the mages would not stand any chance whatsoever.

Yes, there's Bast, and me, and now CT...doing something a little different. (I am sure there are more, that was not meant to be a diss if I forgot someone...oh yeah, toons). I am simply stating that you have two main strata: The ToA guys and then the all-mage teams. It is clear who is on top, and I would contest that they would still be on top even with equal MPRs (because NW PR rocks with a ToA). Then come the mages with us weirdos strewn in there.

It is my opinion that Mikel would rock harder with a ToA than he already does. Is he even out of NUB yet?

moser August 5 2005 9:07 PM EDT

Then my DM/AMF should hit x2 non-natural spell and so on.

WeaponX August 5 2005 9:08 PM EDT

i was thinking that as well moser

QBRanger August 5 2005 9:18 PM EDT

Well at least AMF being 2 times as effective vs the damage familiars out there.

If were weighing defensive spells based on what they go up against.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] August 5 2005 10:07 PM EDT

OK, I will give it a shot :)

First off, here is what you could do, using current gear in the game, to a single tank minion.

A Morgul-Hammer [84x87] (+61) worth $12,941,587
An Assassin's Crossbow [4x42] (+101) worth $18,501,714
An Elven Cloak [4] (+11) worth $1,941,646
Blur [6] (+100) worth $15,362,524
A Pair of Tulkas' Gauntlets [6] (+17) worth $1,970,755
The Mullet [6] (+16) worth $2,273,388
A Buckler of Mandos [8] (+21) worth $3,223,256
Dragon Scales [28] (+49) worth $3,149,566

AC 172


DX +11%
ST +54%

The MCM just to keep DX Pens down, you could train him HP ST DX and bloodlust at a decent ratio with your bonuses. You could opt for a big Adam and add another 50 AC. Thats for 60mil in NW. Think what you could do with another 40 mil to spend, then you would be around Ranger and I. Still almost 50 mil short of Magnus though.

Another, how about spending 80 mil in DB's? +100 is 15mil.

There are many ways to do it, just as long as you are saying how do I beat a ToA tank without a ToA.

I have seen it said, that top will be filled with ToA tanks. I say the top will be filled by a combination of NW and MPR such that with less MPR you will need more NW and vice versa. Now I have also seen it said that the ToA is the best way to leverage NW. So what tattoo should a person with more NW than MPR by comparison wear? The top is not filled with over powered ToA's, its filled with lots of NW on top of MPR. Just so happens that since the game is young, and the MPR gap is a lot less obvious than NW gap, there are more people with a higher NW to MPR ratio that are the opposite, so the best tattoo for leveraging NW is abundant. If the ToA was removed, whatever is the second best tattoo for leveraging NW in the game would be the most popular with high NW characters, who just happen to also be among the top characters in the game.

Why do the game mechanics need altering such that NW is unecessary to compete with high NW characters?

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] August 5 2005 11:10 PM EDT

I have been thinking about how to compete with ToA tanks without a ToA also. If I were to turn tank now I think I could do it at this moment (with a couple of decent weapons and the stat boosting armors). As many of the teams are 4 minion I might be able to keep up if I stayed at 2 minions but I'm not convinced. I was looking at using an enforcers crossbow so this makes it even harder.

Basically with similar exp in the minions and similar NW I don't think you are going to be able to hit a ToA/DB minion enough to beat them with a non ToA tank. Since the archery nerf with many tanks switching to BL you will find it even more difficult (if they switch their ELB for AX bow).

As sefton says NW is a crucial issue when dealing with tanks but I still fail to see a non ToA tank defeating a ToA/DB tank given even minion stats and NW. Also as Sefton says if you can find a way to compete with the ToA/DB combo as a non ToA tank then won't we just see those teams themselves switching to ToE and a possible beat all type strategy.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] August 5 2005 11:46 PM EDT

Point of order: DBs might keep one from being hit, but do not grant the ability to be "DXey" enough to actually hit a ToA'd tank with anything, yes?

Or (in the Imp example above) given the DX differential, unswayed by even my EC, it's only gigantic PTH that is going to allow my VB the occasional nick, not DBs? (At which point, I've spent mucho $, such that my NW would really be more effectively used with ... a ToA?)

QBRanger August 5 2005 11:57 PM EDT


I think what people are saying is that a TOA tank that uses DB's (ie look at Almuric, Magnus, Imp, Gyaxx and me), is practically invulnerable to non TOA tanks.

With the dex difference giving the non TOA tanks no chance for a hit, they will need to rely on the pth. However, even if their VB/MH/BoTH etc.. is +100, the TOA tanks DB's will negate almost all that pth. My DB's are +86, Almuric's is +100, Gyaxx's is +90, Magnus' is +94 and Imps is the lowest at +65.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] August 6 2005 12:17 AM EDT

So: Yes. Right.

Or: The DBs are just for us playing against each other, you have no chance to hit a ToA'd tank, regardless of whom might be wearing the DBs.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] August 6 2005 12:56 AM EDT

No put DB on a mage, train HP DX and Fireball, add big FF tat and viola, a ToA tank killer. You might even be able to do it with a ToE instead of FF. Add some EG for the heck of it. Heck you could stick him in front and learn decay, with enough DX and enough HP and enough DB's you might last till melee with a whole team of damage dealers behind you :)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 6 2005 2:36 AM EDT

Seft: you don't need dex, or the DBs on the mage. Seriously folks, if you want to kill tanks, get a ToA, if you want to kills mages get a ToE. There arn't alot of choices for the tank oriented already, stop picking on us just cause were bigger stronger and faster than you! A well balanced mixed attack team will beat a high dex tank of similar PR, a mage team (This is mageblender after all) will decimate a dex heavy tank. You will not beat my tank with your dex, ever.
Stop trying and go back to having a fightlist twice my size.

QBsutekh137 August 6 2005 3:43 AM EDT

Wow, yeah, um, er, no, novice, you are absolutely 100% incorrect.

But let me back up and clarify...

You are saying a well-balanced team, say, one with some nice enchantments, a tank, and a decent mage will be able to beat a similarly PRed tank-based team?

That's funny, because (deja vu), Spid seems to beat me every time.

My PR is higher than his, and he is all tank, while I am a balanced mage/tank team. I tend toward the mage-busting, but it's not like AC or an axbow would help anyway (I could never hit him). He owns me because he has huge AMF and a tank with a ToA. That's not exactly rocket science -- it's just smart (as I would expect from spydah).

Bast has already covered the other pertinent points (with some help from Ranger, apparently), so I am still waiting for someone to tell me how a non-ToA tank can beat a ToA tank.

As far as mages being the answer, that is simply absurd. The big guns in ToA-land aren't even using much appreciable AMF and they still can't be touched by mages. We've been over this before -- other than DBs, there is nothing for the mages to invest in. And even once they have nice DBs, it is still difficult to rally enough offense to get the job done quickly enough, as Bast pointed out in such an elegantly terse fashion.

There is a third possibility to CT's OP that we could discuss -- making dexterity somehow less important. But I can't get my head around how that could be done right now, as it is 2:35 AM and I am rather tipsy. Dexterity is rubbing me the wrong way right now, as it seems to be wayyyy too much of a lynch pin in all of this. In CB1, that was OK because there was no way to run away with the dexterity game. Now we have ToAs, and they make it easy to run away with it even with a four-minion team (because the tattoo grows all the same). Worse, ToAs get EXTRA pth (still blowing my mind, that is).

Yes, Sefton, it will be all ToAs at the top because net worth has always reigned supreme (camping, USD, selling characters, CB1, etc.) ToAs are still the only way to effectively leverage that, and since another change month has passed, I doubt it is ever going to change. So, CT made a very lucid post about these issues, and it sounds crazy. But upon a closer read, it is dang hard to outright dismiss his concerns.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 6 2005 3:58 AM EDT

Chet - your team kills mages dead. It is in no way balanced, though I do question what you could do with the front two minions that woudl help.

I swear I put on my extra stupid cap this morning, I swear I ment to put on the one that's half-lucid.

maulaxe August 6 2005 5:29 AM EDT

sorry if this is silly in light of the above posts, but i just though i'd try and contribute even if i'm too tired to read through everything...
anyways, my thoughts about the special crossbows - they should have a special % bonus to their PTH on the FIRST round of ranged. i sort of figured at least for the AxBow you would be able to surprise people... cus , um thats what assassins do, right?

maybe the upgrade cost for the + would be slightly more expensive, but there would be a percentage bonus for the first shot

anyways, it's bedtime for Bonzo. WAY past bedtime, in fact. (thats CB for you! always draws me away...).
hope this still makes sense in the morning.

QBRanger August 6 2005 7:23 AM EDT

For those wondering how a non TOA team can beat a TOA team Ill give you this:

Mikel (Battle Royale) Imp (Team Excellence) Mikel 4 6:50 AM EDT

Mikel---FF team
Imp---TOA team

Mikel right now is the example of a high NW/MPR character NOT using the TOA.

So for all the complaining about the TOA and its dex, yes its possible to beat a high NW TOA tank team.

You just need a massive NW yourself to compete.

[T]Vestax August 6 2005 7:36 AM EDT

This discussion is now no different then the "ToA + Seekers is overpowered" topic that we had lest month. And if I remember correctly the same people had the same problem remembering all that ways there are to do damage. Everything is Tank and Mage with you people isn't it. If I remember correctly, I answered the question, "how do you kill a ToA without a ToA?" with a GA + Wall strat that no one seemed to have a problem with.

This is a how I see it. If your team uses DM then you are weak to Mages. If your team has AMF then you're weak to GA. However, if your serious about it you can have GA overcome any DM.

QBJohnnywas August 6 2005 7:41 AM EDT

Vestax, you can also repeat what I've been telling GentlemanLoser for months - there is no way to take on every strategy except as Ranger and Sefton keep repeating - high NW and high PR. Providing your strat is good if your NW and/or PR is high enough you will beat most opponents.

Chocolate Thunder August 6 2005 8:00 AM EDT


A) Mikel has gobs more PR than Imp.
B) Give Imp Seekers and see what happens.

Chocolate Thunder August 6 2005 8:07 AM EDT

Also, we are far off topic... again.

Really the two questions left are
1) Would boosting EC in such a way be fair and a good idea?
2) Is there a point to a Non-ToA tank?

[T]Vestax August 6 2005 8:30 AM EDT

I think Ranger has answered your 2 question. There may be a more efficient strat that uses a ToA and there may be a way to beat Mikel with seekers, but you can't say there is no "point" to his non-ToA strat. Either way it gets the job done.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 6 2005 12:34 PM EDT

Yes there is a point to a non-ToA tank, but it's not to kill tanks.

boosting EC further nukes EVERY tank, don't mages have enough advantage (except for at the top...whatever, I'm still waiting for Mikel to swap for a ToA)

QBsutekh137 August 6 2005 12:41 PM EDT

Yeah, Ranger, you lost me there...Mikel has much higher PR than Imp, so what is the point of that comparison.

Also, I am not sure why people keep saying, "...and loads of NW." Net worth is factored into PR now. All you have to say is, "total PRs being equal..." Yes, it comes back to other threads like this, so I will say what I have said before: Do you think a single ToE mage with 500K MPR and 500K NWPR (total of 1 million) could beat a 500K MPR 500K NWPR tank? If so, what would the mage invest in other than DBs?

Yes, I am starting with the single vs. single and going from there.

QBRanger August 6 2005 3:41 PM EDT

Chet you keep saying it will be all ToAs at the top. Well Mikel is not a ToA. You also say the high nw characters go ToA to leverage their nw. Mikel proves you wrong for now.

QBsutekh137 August 6 2005 3:49 PM EDT

He doesn't prove anything wrong. At that total PR, he should be close to giving you a run for your money, but I am betting he doesn't even come close?

If he switched to a ToA, I bet he would be closer. *smile*

Chocolate Thunder August 6 2005 4:30 PM EDT

I'd hardly call: 8 / 35 / 2,793 good leveraging of 40 million NW in weapons.

Warchild August 7 2005 5:30 AM EDT

CT you are trying to say that a ToA makes a tank overpowered to a non-ToA tank but the single minion standings show you are wrong.

Let me explain 2 months ago Alucard my (ToA solo tank) was the largest solo tank in the game, followed by Brock (non-ToA UC) and Failure (ToE.) Since then a couple of things have changed. Brock switch to using a ToA and Failure out paced both of us (by a lot.)

I can no longer beat Failure much less get the kind of results i was getting before (generally taking no more than 3 hits/fight from Failure.) You may ask how this happened and there are several reasons

1) He put a lot into his DX to be able to get over the DX supplied by a ToA

2) His ToE means that he takes a lot less damage than a ToA tank would

3) his VA, which in combination with the lowered damage from the ToE and high dx means he heals almost as much damage as he takes from any tank.

There are things I could do to be able to beat Failure (namely adding more NW and raising my natural DX) but the fact remains that a ToE tank went from the 3rd largest solo tank to the largest solo tank passing by a ToA tank and a UC tank that converted to ToA.

I say all this to point out that there is not a DX is very possible for non-ToA tanks to beat ToA tanks. It is (as are most things in this game) just a matter of how you spend your xp and money.

Xiaz on Hiatus August 7 2005 5:33 AM EDT

Something you haven't mentions, is did Failure increase his fight rate? That may be another factor, maybe.

AdminJonathan August 7 2005 9:37 AM EDT

(Yes, Mikel is out of NUB.)

QBRanger August 7 2005 10:07 AM EDT


As to your question 2.

Is there a point to a non TOA tank?

Again, I say yes,

Mikel is the closest character to defeating me, esp with his very high FF. In my battles with him, my minitank/wall is the only one left standing with about 140k hp left.

Even vs Gyaxx my ToA tank lives with at least 500k hp left.

So there is a point to a non TOA character.

Yes I could use seekers, but they are rare, not in constant supply, and would eat into the profits I make fighting each day.

QBsutekh137 August 7 2005 11:44 AM EDT

Warchild, I think you answered your own question...Failure "out paced you".

Someone simply playing more is not a strategy. This discussion starts with the understood "all facets of PR being equal..." You PR is behind Failure's, so he SHOULD be able to beat you, and does.

There is no way a non-ToA tank should be able to catch a ToA tank's dexterity if they are investing similar XP in their characters. dexterity on the ToA grows way too fast. It outpaced any normal training, outpaces EC, and the built-in additional pth adds even more guaranteed hits.

Why aren't you pumping your dexterity more? In lieu of massive NW, dexterity is the single most important strategy for a single tank when it comes to defeating other tanks. Perhaps you are going for more balance while Failure is focused on dexterity? *shrug* I don't know, but it hardly sounds like a definitive case for a non-ToA tank working out.

Ranger, I see your point...let me clarify it and you can tell me if you agree: There IS a use for a non-ToA tank as a secondary minion. With the right equipment, even a non-ToA tank can still deal out substantial damage, and with a magic counterpart helping out can be part of a well-balanced team.

I would agree with that. But for more simple comparisons, I am sticking with comparing solo vs. solo. Warchild's example is a good one, but the PRs aren't the same. Also, Failure and Alucard are at a slightly lower level then the top elite, and I tihnk with time, NW will help Alucard a lot more than Failure. I have absolutely no doubt the ToA will beat the ToE in that case, especially as Alucard's blows start exceeding the ceiling of Failure's ToE. The tide will then turn in dramatic fashion -- that's what ToAs do to ToEs...I have watched several ToA teams go from not being able to touch me to beating me in a matter of days by using a ToA. The Extras and Neji are just a couple of examples, bu tthere have been several.

[T]Vestax August 7 2005 12:01 PM EDT

Probably because he can hit and dodge everyone around him pretty well except Failure Chet. I mean he is a Single Minion ToA Tank, so beating Failure is probably not his biggest worry, but rather knocking down walls and living through 5 rounds to kill those last row Mages.

Lumpy Koala August 7 2005 12:09 PM EDT

sorry to burst your bubbles Chet :) But Neji had been able to beat you even when he was still UC tank :) and that's solely because of my Axbow making your tank look like an extra punch bag :)

So in conclusion, TOA or no TOA, dexterity in tank versus tank scenario is too important. How are you going to change this? Only Jon knows, I have no clue. But nerf the mages first :)

[T]Vestax August 7 2005 12:20 PM EDT

Simple solution, make all physical attacks get a 100% chance to hit. While Magic goes back to having less then a 100% chance. *grin* I wonder if that would nerf me or make me better?

QBsutekh137 August 7 2005 12:26 PM EDT

NK, I have no bubbles to burst. I thought the ToA was the change that made the difference, but my memory is probably lacking. I think it is great that Neji can beat Cougars...

ThePwnageStickz August 7 2005 1:13 PM EDT

PwnageSticks thoughts:
You guys have far to much free time on your hands.... :|

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] August 7 2005 1:26 PM EDT


QBsutekh137 August 7 2005 1:29 PM EDT

Yes, Stick...forming cohesive, intelligent arguments is ever so arduous and time-consuming... I honestly don't know how I have time to eat or sleep!

[T]Vestax August 7 2005 2:08 PM EDT

You mean I could do all those things that sustain my life if I just say stuff like "bad idea" or "I don't like it" or "BURN the _______". Wow, why am I wasting my time by explaining my opinion.

Now to get back on topic: What DX problem?!

QBsutekh137 August 7 2005 2:31 PM EDT

By the way, Neji can also beat Bast's Bartlett. Neji has far less total PR, less MPR, and is going up against the highest EC in the game and the largest ToJ. One has to give NK credit for optimal use of NW, AMF, and an axbow (second biggest in game), but man -- that is quite a team to be able to take out. Bartlett isn't especially focused on any one thing, but it is kind of hard to fathom with a total PR north of 900K. That loss is all about dexterity.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] August 7 2005 5:15 PM EDT

Seriously. Neji.

QBsutekh137 August 7 2005 5:45 PM EDT

Eartha is not pleased. I repeat: NOT pleased!

Chocolate Thunder August 7 2005 5:52 PM EDT

Chet, you come out with the Eartha reference, but neglect to use words such as "purrrfect" or "purrrrrportional'? I'm disappointed in you. :P

QBsutekh137 August 7 2005 10:47 PM EDT

That is superrrrrfluous, CT. Your point needs no dramatization or props. It stands on its own!


Lumpy Koala August 7 2005 10:59 PM EDT

hehe well beating Barlett was a great achievement I guess, but I think apart from TOA, it's the timing of hiring minion , the untrain of largest and most useless UC, the use of largest VB in game and 2nd largest Axbow plays a great role in this. If I use other melee weap, most likely will have to stalemate all the time against her big big TOJ :P

So it's a big strategy change that doesn't really just the TOA.

Duke August 7 2005 11:46 PM EDT

Well i think all the latest change have create that situation why not a others series of changelog.

[T]Vestax August 8 2005 11:37 AM EDT

I've decided I want to go back to this whole leveraging NW issue. I've finally noticed where everyone is putting their money and its no wonder they think ToA is the best way to 'leverage'.

When you put NW into a CoI, ToA does NOT help you leverage it, DD does. When you put NW into a Corn, ToA does NOT help you leverage it, EO and ED do. When you put NW into Elven Gear (excluding ELS and ELB) ToA does NOT help you leverage but rather only REAL DX and xp in skills do. When you put money into TGs or HGs or BGs or DBs you can NOT leverage it with a ToA. So forgive me if I'm suddenly forgetting to see your point. Heck even NW into just plain AC still requires you to put xp into HP and ToA alone will not help you there.

But when person put's 33.2 million in NW into a Morg and only 3.8 million into a CoI, of course they're going to believe it's all about the ToA.

QBsutekh137 August 8 2005 3:52 PM EDT

That's exactly it, Vestax. It's about the weapons, and has always been about the weapons.

It is also all about the dexterity (back on topic) and the fact that a 33 million Morg is USELESS when a non-ToA tank is swinging it -- he will miss the ToA tank almost every single time while the ToA will be hitting back multiple times due to dexterity and the extra pth granted by the ToA itself.

You can name all the other items people can invest in all you like. But weapons are what the game is about. Offense trumps defense every time.

Yes, there are other things that can be leveraged: DBs, armor, CoI, Corn, etc. DBs and armor are purely defensive. Corn and CoI are mage/enchanter based. This discussion is about dexterity (and morphed into non-ToA vs ToA). Dexterity has nothing to do with magic.

Besides, I have basically already mentioned all this in my hypothetical: single mage with 500K MPR and 500K NWPR (you shoose the items) wearing a ToE (or even an FF) against a single tank wearing a ToA and having similar PR breakdown. Who do you think would win? I honestly have no idea. Actually, comparing Susan Death to Spid sort of shows it. Spid has two minions, but the E is almost all AMF. Susan Death wins. Maybe the ToA isn't as tough as I am thinking when fewer minions are involved. It will take a while before Spid's blows are large enough to exceed Susan's ToE threshold, I guess...

Chocolate Thunder August 8 2005 4:17 PM EDT


Spid is bowless at the moment... give it time ;)

QBRanger August 8 2005 4:18 PM EDT

Spid is also bloodlust, not archery so I suspect he may not use a compound or elb, but rather an enforcers or assassins xbow.

Chocolate Thunder August 8 2005 4:19 PM EDT

Oddity Note:
Carnage Blender » Discussion Forums » Off-topic » Dexterity Balancing Ideas?

The top bit of my screens says its off topic, but the thread is in general. Odd

[T]Vestax August 8 2005 4:19 PM EDT

Chet, my point is that your not really going to know if Morg trumps a CoI unless your going to spend the same amount of money on it, and you failed to see that. I have the second largest CoI in the game and do you know how much PR it adds, less then 20k. To me that's nothing compared to the levels I gain from it. If i had just 250k PR in CoI I would have one heck of a DD spell. Throw that on a 500 MPR FB Mage and you would see a whole lot of first round kills.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 8 2005 4:20 PM EDT

Hi all! Still on holiday (Johnny, stop dropping my name into threads! I will find them all! :P )

My little thoughts (fuled by some staropramen).

How to reduce Magic damage;

AC +
Multiple minions for spread attacks
Mage Shield
TBF for fireball

How to reduce Physical damage;

Full AC
Strength (marginal effect)
A/E crossbows

Let's dump AC, Protection and Endurance for a moment (oh and Strength, as it's a marginal effect and spread effects and the under wheliming TBF). We're left with AMF, and Mage Shield for Magic and EC (including the weapon effects of the A/E crossbows) for physical.

AMF works as a ratio to the DD it's facing, while the Mage Shield has a very useful minimum value.

EC is a direct reduction, with the special crossbows having a very useful direct minimum reduction.

While both the Magic damage reductions left reduce damage taken by the whole of thier effect, EC doesn't.

A reduction of strength does not lower damage significantly, unless Strength can be taken to or very close to zero. Reducing dexterity doesn't reduce damage, but reduces the chance of taking additional damage. (The same for pth and Evasion, which is why I've left these out).

If I hit a mage with a 50% AMF reduction, I reduce his total potential damage by 50%.

If I hit a tank with a 50% Str reduction I do not reduce his potential damage by 50%.

Now, additional hits. Let's assume Evasion can cancel out any pth (which in reality it has a very hard time doing...) dexterity reduction counts for nothing unless your character has dexterity itself. Or like Str, you can reduce the targets dexterity to zero (or less than 20).

There is no tank specific Damage reduction (no stat reducer...) unlike there is for magical attacks. All you can hope for, is to try to totally negate Strength and or Dexterity to try to limit damage done.

A ToA makes this impossible.

It also make it's impossible to reduce pth to nothing as well.


Bring back Cause Fear?

Grant August 8 2005 5:49 PM EDT

Jonathan despises Cause Fear. I don't think it's coming back.

QBsutekh137 August 8 2005 6:21 PM EDT

Vestax, you are also missing a very important factor about the money invested in weapons: the net worth adds to the damage inflicted to some degree. Each point on a CoI gets more and more expensive (quite prohibitively so, I believe), and even if the next level costs 10 million and you are increasing the NW of the CoI by 25%, you still only get that one extra click of +. And at +15, increases are already costing well over 1 million per click, judging by the item list. Anyone know what +20 to +21 would be? Around 10 million would be my guess.

A weapon on the other hand, is different. Going from x100 to x110 is a HUGE increase as compared to going from x80 to x90, because net worth factors into the damage calculation.

Investing in DBs is a more valid comparison because the + on DBs is curved at the same rate as the Big Weapons (at least it was on CB1). But again, that is defensive. And I haven't seen a full chart-up of the upgrade curve on a CoI. But I seriously doubt upgrading a CoI is going to have the same effect as enhancing a weapon, especially since no matter what you do, you can never, ever make the magic fire twice.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] August 10 2005 7:08 PM EDT

This is a very interesting thread, and I've enjoyed reading it. Many good points here. I'd like to add a couple.

Dexterity is a great stat. As pointed out earlier, it has very strong defensive and offensive qualities. Defensively, it allows you to get hit less often, or not at all. Offensively it allows archers and melee fighters to get multiple hits. That's pretty strong.

Now let's take strength. Unless I'm mistaken it has offensive qualities only. A stronger minion does a little more ranged damage and hits harder in melee. No defensive quality for strenght and that's where it sucks, and the imbalance lies.

Typically in other games strength allowed characters to wield bigger weapons and heavier armor. Weaker characters couldn't equip this big stuff. In cb2 any weak minion could wield a very powerful weapon like an ELB or Morg and do a lot of damage with a big dex and moderate strength. As sophisticated as this game has become, I would think the time has come to place strength requirements on some armor. Not only that, but as the minion became even stronger the dex penalty associated with that armor could decrease. It makes sense that if you can equip an Adam at 100,000 strength you might have a 15% dex penalty. But at 200,000 strength it would be easier to move around in that heavy armor so the dex penalty may be only 7%.

Strength is a weak stat in this game mainly because it isn't tied to armor requirements, and so it's not very important in the long run.

Adrian Exodus August 10 2005 7:21 PM EDT

Strength. A stronger Minion will deal more damage to opponents and resist (physical) damage better himself.-from wiki

being stronger may mean easier to lift heavy armor but would have nothing to do with the restrictions that binding armor places on movements.

QBsutekh137 August 10 2005 8:27 PM EDT

STR-related damage resistance is, in Jon's own words from previous CB1 threads, "highly over-estimated."

I am not sure if it is the same here.

STR is VERY important, especially at the low end of the damage scale. And since it couples with weaponry (where NW can really make a difference too), it is invaluable.

However, its value isn't even close to that of Dexterity. If you can't hit, it doesn't matter a whit how hard you are swinging.

Thanks for bringing this thread back to the fore...still waiting for Vestax to respond to my last post. *grin*

[T]Vestax August 11 2005 2:15 AM EDT

I wasn't about to drag us off-topic again Chet. *grin*

But since you requested it. Yes, CoI can't make you fire twice. Yes the cost for the next plus on the CoI is ridiculous in comparison to the last plus. However, I have a feeling there is a balance you do not see. I see a CoI as a way to get more for my xp. For every 100 levels I raise my DD i get an additional 13 at the moment. With the CoI on, I am also pretty sure that the last 10k levels increase to my DD gives me just as much damage increase as my next 10k levels of DD. I don't see anyone, however, guaranteeing the same results from weapons. If you left your weapon unimproved while you increased your ST can you really say that the percentage increase in damage from the last 10k levels of ST will match the next 10k levels of ST?

It's hard to notice if this is or is not the case because people go crazy reaching for the next best weapon until they finally have the best. Then once they get the best they almost never stop improving it, while the CoI or Corn or EB or whatever percentile increasing item goes unimproved for weeks or months. Sometimes the player insists on never improving the item ever again in fact. What I'm saying is that few have come close to investing real money into these items while weapons keep seeing improvement on a regular basis, which in turn makes them think that weapons leverage their xp so much more then those other items spite this not being proved true.

Anyhow, I think you can still see my point that you are mistaken every time you say "ToA is the best way to leverage NW". Instead what you mean and have always meant is that ToA is the best way to leverage weapons, which I'll grant you is true. However, you also think that NW spent on weapons is the only NW that matters anyhow, so one might as well just say that ToA leverages NW directly, which I do not grant to you as a truth but rather as an opinion.

If anything Chet, I'm sure that we can agree on this later statement. Even If I can't win you over on the weapons verses non-weapons topic.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 11 2005 1:03 PM EDT

Hi all, going back to dexterity, let's leave NW and items alone for a min. Let's just assume everyone has 100 million CB cash worth of items, as they see fit. Included in this assumption, let's ignore weapon pth and evasion as well.

At equal dexterity, both attacker and defender have a 50% chance to hit each other with 1 attack each.

Each 1% difference in opponents dexterity effects both chances to hit by an equal amount.

For example; an attacker with a dexterity 10% higher than their opponent has a 60% chance to hit, while the defender with 10% lower dexterity therefore has a 40% chance to hit.

This chance to hit is assumed to go as low as 0%, for someone with 50% less dexterity than their opponent. While going as high as 165%+ (an automatic hit at 100%, 65%+ chance of a second) for someone with deterity 115%+ higher than their opponent.

Theorycraft aside, if you are a tank, dexterity doesn't matter *at all* when you face enchanters or mages. You *are* going to hit the two dexterity based hits cap.

Dexterity only matters when you are facing another Tank.

Then it is desirable to leverage dexterity in order to maximise *your* hit's, while minimising the hits of your opponent.

This is where a ToA throws the ballance out of wack. If your opponent uses a ToA, as a Tank, you need to as well. Otherwise you might just as well put all your xp (Bar HP s as Grant has found out! :P) into a DD spell.

As somone *will* be using a ToA, then you, as a Tank *have* to use one as well.

It really is that simple...

QBsutekh137 August 11 2005 1:39 PM EDT

Everything I say is merely my opinion. How could it be anything else?

No, STR does not pace with DD, nor is it linear. That's why it combines with weapon NW to create (IMO) a much more powerful combination than DD in the long run (CoI or not).

Chocolate Thunder August 11 2005 1:42 PM EDT

GL, hit the nail on the head by saying "... then you, as a Tank *have* to use one as well. " That's the issue that people like myself have here... In a game about choices, one shouldn't *have* to use any one thing to compete, but right now in the Tank universe, its go ToA or go home... and its not because of the strength training ;). Choices are what makes this game fun and interesting. Basically in my original post, i was looking for new choices to counteract that massive dex differential. I'm not saying the ToA needs a nerf, I'm just saying that those of us that refuse to submit to their glowing aura need some sort of reasonable option to combat them.

Quark August 11 2005 2:07 PM EDT

You don't *have* to do anything in this game. I was using Murcielago to have a ToA specialist tank - high dex, lots of elven gear to increase it, and a large exbow to drain strength (since nobody else has dex, reducing the ToA tank's dex does me no good, but reducing its damage does). Not perfect, but as I continue to invest in dex it seems to grow a bit faster than the ToA's dex.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 11 2005 3:41 PM EDT

You don't *have* to do anything.. You don't have to spend BA.... But if you want to compete, and hey, isn't that what the focus of this game is? Then to compete, a tank *needs* a ToA.

I've a different view to Chet though. In the long run DD will be more powerful than Strength + Weapon. As Chet's pointed out;

"STR does not pace with DD, nor is it linear. That's why it combines with weapon NW"

DD is linear. Str does not pace with it, and there will come a time NW will be too expensive to keep up. Therefore in the long term, DD will outpace Strength + Weapon.


QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] August 11 2005 4:06 PM EDT

You do not have to have a ToA to compete with a ToA. You must have equivalent NW and MPR however. If that is what your gripe is, that it requires you to add a lot of NW to compete with it, then you are right it does.

I have supplied many examples in this very post how you would do it, and no one says they wont work. They might say except the axbow or except the db strat, what else will work, but no one says, well that wont do it. They will. How many rock options to you need to counter scissors? Sounds like there are an easy 3 I can think of (leverage axbow, leverage DBs, get your own ToA) and I could easily argue an armor class based strat as well (my wall can have up to 286 AC fully decked, that nerfs 60% of all physical damage against him, leverage that with a ToE on an enchanter.....)

Again, just because you cannot beat 180mil NW with your 50mil NW does not mean that ToA's are the only option, nor that they are over powered, it simply means you need to get another 130mil NW of your own, then put that NW to good use, then you can compete. It's that simple.

Chocolate Thunder August 11 2005 4:23 PM EDT

Sefton, I borrowed a +85 Axbow from NK last week, second biggest Axbow in the game. There's 2 people that beat me consistantly that have significantly less MPR and NW than me without a borrowed $14 million NW Axbow. I still missed them with a +85 Axbow... yep that works wonders. Did i do something wrong? 1.5 million DBs and a 14 million NW Axbow against folks with 70K less MPR and only $17 million total NW, and I still couldn't lay a finger on either of them. Heck, the Axbow has more NW than their whole teams without their tattoos! Bigger DBs would have just caused a stalemate (whee!). But, if I changed to a ToA I wouldn't need 1/3 that NW and I'd clobber them.

There's one tank in town and its the ToA. Excuse me while I continue playing with my laughing stock of a tank.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] August 11 2005 4:39 PM EDT

I looked at your last 1000 battles and could not find the opponent you speak of. I would bet that they have a lot of ED's. Since you choose AMF (will help you in NO WAY vs any tank) anyone who choose the AS/Haste/GS option will do well against you with or without a ToA. Your tank has about the same AC as my enchanter. Since you can wear armor you should leverage armor. The MgS is probably a poor choice as weill for beating tanks. You are leaned to beating Mages, so it does not surprise me that you have trouble vs any tanks, let alone ToA tanks. You cannot just plop down a big axbow and say there fixed. If a +85 axbow misses you need more DX. Get a EC and swap in some EGs, bump that DX, while you are at it drop the MgS for atleast a BoM (again the advantage of not having a ToA tattoo) You will say but I need the MgS to beat the mages, welcome to rock paper scissors this should not surprise you.

If you want me to show you how you can totally go after ToA tanks with your non-ToA tank I will, but then I bet you lose to the FF/DM/FB teams. Which I would prefer so you could say how over powered they are WITHOUT any appreciatable NW, which I believe is much more of an arguement.

Chocolate Thunder August 11 2005 4:48 PM EDT

So in other words, if i want to beat a ToA tank with DBs with 60-70K less PR than me (AS/GA by the way, and GA does near squat against me especially when i miss so much), I have to spend 3 times what they spend? Because a Weapon equaling their NW wasn't enough to hit them... once. All the armor in the world wouldn't help me beat them, I can't hit them. I could force a stalemate with more cash spent on DBs and armor, as I said.. that's about it.

QBRanger August 11 2005 4:58 PM EDT


It would help a lot in your arguement if you could state who you fought with 60k less MPR and only 17 million NW total.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] August 11 2005 4:59 PM EDT

but that is not about it. Switch your AMF to DM and I bet you would have beat them, that simple. And no, not from GA from AS. How do those opponents you tried to beat do against Krang? You draw to Krang, my bet is Krang beats those opponents. Your whole strat says don't let mages beat me, and I bet not many do. How many mage teams of any size with or without tanks beat you? How many of the opponents you lose to wear ToA? My bet is most of the opponents that beat you DO use ToA, and if they did not have it they would lose to you.

Every strat will have holes, you have to do what you can to minimize them, but saying ToA's are overpowered while you pound on the biggest mages in the game makes it hard to say man you are right.

Chocolate Thunder August 11 2005 5:29 PM EDT

Ranger, one person was Aquateenhungerforce (though i really don't think he's fought in a nearly a week, i may be able to take him now)... I'm not stating the other as they haven't added me to their hitlist as they don't realize they can beat me, though since i started ranting today more people have been trying me out and adding me.

And Sefton, I submit to people like Cau and Neji with this strategy... they *should* beat me, they don't confuse and befuddle me. Its the people that have tiny NW and 15% less MPR that confuse me, they don't beat me because they pound me to the ground... they beat me because my tank has no means for hitting them (even with a borrowed +85 weapon) and they can chip away leisurely for 20 rounds. Switching to DM wouldn't help beat anyone except that one team that uses Haste (brave soul that he is), knocking down AS/GA/GS/VA aren't helping me beat a team I can't hit anyway.

The problem is that the ToA outpaces a normal tank by nearly 3x on a 4-minion team and around 2x on a 3-minion team (someone check those numbers). Add DBs to the ToA and that gives an impossible dex gap to overcome with any reasonable amount of NW. A change to EC or an Xbow buff would be enough of ding to the ToA that non-ToA tanks could compete with ToA tanks that are significantly smaller in PR... but it wouldn't be enough to beat ones that are the same size or just slightly smaller. That seems fair to me, I'm not sure why that doesn't seem fair to you.

QBRanger August 11 2005 5:43 PM EDT


You just did beat Aquayadayadayade today.

But you dont even realize how very very close you were to beating me before you nuked your character. You had my last minion down to under 100k hp with my TOA tank already dead. And you had over 200k less MPR and 1/5th the NW I did at that time. Im positive that if you continued along with that strat you would have easily beat me very soon.

So there are strats that can defeat a TOA tank.

Now back to your ORIGINAL 2 questions.

1) If EC is to kill 2 times unnatural Str/Dex, then to compensate AMF should be 2x effective vs FF/SF/IF. Just to keep it fair to all.

2) For the reasons discussed above, the axbow should NOT drain dex if it misses. If it did, then all my minions would use x40 +0 assassin or enforcer xbows. The bigger problem is the fact that the upgrades on the DB's are easier than that of an assassin or enforcers crossbow. All the high level TOA tanks have very high DB's as a defensive measure.

[T]Vestax August 11 2005 5:46 PM EDT

Chet, GL has pretty much pointed out what part of what you say is in fact an opinion. (And I knew he would if I waited *grin*) Your of the opinion that weapons can go on forever out pacing DD, and GL has reason to think the reverse. Regardless, like I said, ToA doesn't leverage NW per se, it mostly only leverages weapons. That's the only point I want to stand out, the rest you can flush down the toilet. As to whether you or GL are ultimately correct, only time will tell.

Now to hit on something G Maximus said, I think he's got a good idea by trying to overcome ToA with elven gear. Sure it might take a good sum of money but eventually he can succeed against any ToA. The ToA can only grant you so much DX for so much xp earned. Once the percentile of DX increase from elven gear becomes greater then the DX you get from the ToA, it will never be able to catch up to you again. In fact, you will eventually have a much more economical strat then the ToA since the ToA, which will always stay behind you, will continue to add NW and PR while the elven gear has no need to add anymore unless you want to out pace the ToA even more.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 11 2005 6:02 PM EDT

Hey.... I'm being used? I feel dirty now... ;)

"You do not have to have a ToA to compete with a ToA. You must have equivalent NW and MPR however."

Assume exactly the same MPR and NW. Both tanks. Both tanks have spent their cash on weapon, dbs etc etc.... Even assume exactly the same weapons, and dbs, with exactly the same + as their pth...

The difference between the ToA tank and the non ToA tank is the non ToA tank can land none of thier two dex based hits, while allowing thier opponent to land two dex based hits every round.

For this the non ToA tank get's to use a body armour and cloak. What two peices of armour out weight the disparity between the dex based hits? High AC ones? Even if you get a 50% damage reduction from just these two items (~239 AC...) with a higher dex, your ToA opponent has got 100% (ignoring pth/evasion. it's not part of the equation...) damage reduction plus the confidence of landing two hits on you. Every time. So high AC items don't warrant not using a ToA.

What does?

As Vestax suggested, maybe Dex increasing items can outpace a ToA?


With a Million dexterity (which no one has anywhere near) +20% dex from items (maybe you can squeeze a little more pluses out) grantes you an extra 200K dex. The same as a what, 333K ToA?

A lot of tattoos are already at or near that size, and it's going to take a lot of time to get to 1 mil Dex, which by then, the ToA's will have just got bigger...

And all this is ignoring the extra ToA bonuses of Strength and dex. If you're not worried about EC, don't train any natural Str, let the ToA take that, and pump that xp into your dex...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 11 2005 6:04 PM EDT

Make that extra bonuses of Str and pth....

*slinks off*

[T]Vestax August 11 2005 6:14 PM EDT

I didn't think I was using you, rather letting you have the chance to state your opinion once again.

eh, so it's a very very big eventually, but at least one can hope the game can last that long. :)

Chocolate Thunder August 11 2005 6:18 PM EDT

I was using him :D

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] August 11 2005 6:52 PM EDT

Yah well thats the problem, only a fool would use the same gear. The non-ToA tank would want totally different gear from the ToA tank. For instance, the ToA cannot wear armor or cloak. So you add a 3mil NW adam to your crew and you add over 100AC to your minion, toss in 2mil on a Shadow cloak forgo the DB's and dump into CMLS, make a heavy tank, say hit me but you wont hurt me. Or like the other suggestion go all DX. You say impossible, but 20% you are joking right? EB EC and EG, lets just say a palty +10 a piece is 30%, and I see 50% possible with some NW. And again, you just need to go all the way with it. And again, if you are just doing minion to minion comparisons you are missing the boat. This is a full team effort to defeat a ToA tank just like its a full team effort for me to beat large mage teams.

My ToA tank can't stand up to a big single minion FF/FB/DM team by itself. With my HP and AC I would be dead before I would do enough damage to both of them. So does that make now FF/FB/DM teams over powered, simply because my ToA tank could not stand up to them? I hope so! Its both just a minion and its tattoo. But I'm way dead with 10X their NW on minion by comparison.

So you want to be a beat a big ToA you add an EC enchanter. Sure by himself he does nothing, but with the extra elven gear and AC your tank has, bloodlust with Morg after axbow does hit with EC assist and DX bolstering. Then you drop in a Decay/wall guy. Now you force them to seekers or AMF/DM splitting. So then you add in your own GA enchanter. Maybe bolster it with another EC. Now you have viced them in. They have to DM/AMF or go seekers.

ToA is beatable. In many many ways. However most of those ways require a vulnearability to mages. Go figure.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 11 2005 8:13 PM EDT

:) Give me a 2 mill FB and I'll beat everyone here. Scratch that, there are some very good anti mage teams. Better make it 5 Mil...

But i was focusing on like for like.

"2) Is there a point to a Non-ToA tank?"

I think we can all agree, facing either a Wall, Mage, Enchanter, or any other type of minion bar another tank, there really is no great distinction between ToA/Non ToA.

It's only when we compare Tank versus Tank. Is there such a gulf between using a ToA to not using one, on a Tank, that should raise questions about the tattoo itself?

As both types of tank have (potential) access to exactly the same equipment, bar the restrictions placed upon using a tattoo, to keep the observation fair, we have to assume like for like. Give an non ToA tank more cash, maybe even much more cash, than a ToA tank and I'm sure you could get a configuration that wins... But it's not really helpful.

So Adam + SC versus ToA. It's not equal. There is no reason for a Tank to choose (if you want to be competitive) anything else above a ToA. That is not strategy. Are there any other choices?

As for the natural dex route, I'll accept that I might be painting a low figure for dex increase, but it's not going to be much higher. If you want to take this route, it's a light tank. No Adam, no CMLs. MCM to keep the dex penalties down. If you're trying to beat a ToA dex so you can hit and not be hit in return, there is no reason to substitute out DBs. That leaves you totally open to abuse from pth.

If you go Heavy Tank and "say hit me but you wont hurt me" you can be sure your Tank, in return will never hit either, leading to a stalemate if he can't whittle you down.

Unless he uses a VB...

I think this is becoming too wide a discussion. Let's ignore Mages, Enchanters and Walls. Extra minions as well. Tank versus Tank. Is there any competitive alternative equal to a ToA?

I don't think there is...

AdminJonathan August 11 2005 8:28 PM EDT

I think there is a great deal of difference b/t ToA vs FB mage and ToE vs FBM. So no, I wouldn't agree that tank vs tank is the only matchup that matters.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 11 2005 8:32 PM EDT

For Dex it is.

It doesn't matter how much dex you have, either naturally, or from a ToA when you face a 20 Dex Mage.

QBsutekh137 August 11 2005 8:43 PM EDT

No, it is not the only match up that matters.

But it seems...limiting, that the two poles are ToA vs all mage. We are all converging on a name for the non-ToA tank -- it's called a Wall. Sorry, folks. That ain't a tank.

We are all agreeing that there is no use putting a weapon in the hand of anything not wearing a ToA (ulness you are specializing in mage-killing). CT had a +85 axbow on what was supposed to be a tankish minion, and it did him no good. The dexterity game seals the rest of the fate.

So, can we just go a little farther and all agree that a non-ToA tank is useless (again, for all except mage-killing) unless you just go ahead and make him a wall? I keep hearing "high AC", "lots of HP", and "mainly defensive". That's a Wall, not a tank.

And I think a Wall is the lamest minion type every conjured. I would rather forge. That's my problem with the ToA in a nutshell.

Or maybe there is a different convergence... The ToA, the all mage, and the hybrid in between (what Cougars was and what CT is now) that keeps everything honest. If that's the point of the game, then I have to say it feels more constricting that CB1. I thought CB2 would have more choices with the tattoos and all, but there seem to be fewer, more locked-in choices now. Anyone else feel that way?

[T]Vestax August 11 2005 10:43 PM EDT

(/me looks at his IF) nope.

QBsutekh137 August 11 2005 11:15 PM EDT

Um, Vest, you are all mage. You are agreeing with me.

My question was, does anyone feel there is any alternative to ToA, all mage, or that weak hybrid in between that keeps everyone honest (but can never excel because od the ToA pummelling).

Your answer, based on looking at your highest character, is "no", as you have chosen option 2: all mage. I am having a hard time seeing what pointing to your IF and saying "nope" is?

[T]Vestax August 11 2005 11:35 PM EDT

"I thought CB2 would have more choices with the tattoos and all, but there seem to be fewer, more locked-in choices now. Anyone else feel that way?"

Mikel August 12 2005 12:38 AM EDT

What is your knock on a hybrid strats?
I want you to tell me what all is wrong with my strat.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] August 12 2005 12:45 AM EDT

If you are happy with it, nothing.

For the purposes of this conversation, such as it is, we are discounting you on the basis that, while what you have there is effective, it is hardly efficient. See Dawg.

QBsutekh137 August 12 2005 1:12 AM EDT

So, Vestax, you see the all-mage (including a mage familiar) as new and exciting?

[T]Vestax August 12 2005 1:37 AM EDT

1) Chet, I'm not an all mage team. Ignoring GA as a viable way to deal damage means you can't get out of a mage and tank mind-set. My GA (highest in the game) is so swift and so effective actually that it is the primary reason why everyone on my fight list is defeated in 3 or 4 rounds.

2) What I was saying is that spite my choice in choosing an unpopular tattoo, I don't feel myself being driven to one of the dominate strats in the slightest. I feel no pull to move to a FF or a ToA or a ToE at all. You asked if I felt "locked-in" and I was simply answering how I "feel", which is no.

Quark August 12 2005 9:50 AM EDT

FYI since it came up, 31% increased Dex costs me a bit over a mil in NW (see my clan item loan thread for item stats on my bonus armor.

QBsutekh137 August 12 2005 10:07 AM EDT

OK. If you say you are not following one of the "dominant" strats, then we will have to agree to disagree. I see you as an all mage team with a big GA. Tacking on a big GA doesn't really change any of my comments about people either going ToA or mage-centered. You are mage-centered as far as minion and tattoo type.

What I mean by "lock-in" is that I have yet to see anything new on CB2 as compared to CB1, which seems sad now that we have tattoos. Here's is what we already had in CB1 (and I did miss a few with my previous comments):

1) Tank Dominated - This would include T, ET, EET, and EEET. fun stuff. In the twilight days, the more tanks the better because of the huge amounts of cash being pooled in the game. Lots of TTTT out there, actually.

2) All Mage - main offense came from DD, but Enchanters abounded as well: EMMM, MM, EEMM, and such.

3) The Passive Damage - Even works better in CB1, as there are three great ways to passively deal out damage: GA, AMF, CBF. Works wonders, especially since there is no DM to foil the GA/AS combinations.

4) The Mixes - TTMM, ETMM, EETM, TM, ETM...these were all very popular and effective strategies. The tank could still be big enough to stand up (and actually land a hit against other tanks), and the mage could be big enough to stand up as well. There was good balance in these teams. Many even already discovered the Wall minion...high HP and high AC to protect those behind. And by a mage, I am not talking about an enchanter with a base Decay trained. These were real mages with real invested XP into their craft.

Here is where we may just be talking about bad expectations on my part... I was expecting all of these to be viable strategies in CB2, plus some new ones based around tattoos. I DO think tattoos have added to the game over all -- a nice new thing that people can tweak and change (especially now with the RoE). Micro-management is fun! But as far as general tactics, tattoos have seemed to polarize the strategies more than diversify them. Non-tattooed minions are almost _always_ enchanters or walls. Sure, the enchanter's might have a base Decay on them, and the Walls might take a few potshots with a specialized xbow, but for the most part, non-tattoed minions are meat shields and enchanters (or both). In my opinion, that isn't very much fun. You appear to like the current state. I'm very glad that I appear to be in the minority on this one, as it means CB is still a rich and varied game. That's good news!

[EG] Almuric August 12 2005 10:28 AM EDT

Sutekh's back. Sutekh's back.

(Does the happy-happy-Sutekh's-back dance.)

Hail to Sutekh, destroyer of worlds and eater of Top Ramen.


[T]Vestax August 12 2005 10:42 AM EDT

Chet wins, I'll just admit defeat for now. Besides, I won't bother going past post 100 on a general forum topic.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] August 12 2005 10:49 AM EDT

I have to agree with you Sutekh. I like trying unusual strats. So I started with a TTTT. It was fun, expensive, but I soon realized it just wouldn't work well. Now I have another unusual strat: E, W/MgS, W/TBF, M. It's fun, but not very strong and I don't think it will hold up to big ToAs or bid DDs in the long run. I keep thinking that I should go back to using a ToA and converting my M back to a bigger tank. Or, alternatively, converting the tattoo back to a dd familiar. But that's what evferyone else has right?
Basically, I aggree that the winning strats are narrowed down due to the tattoos and the all-powerful effect of dex.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 12 2005 11:16 AM EDT


Um. Are we still discussing something?

QBsutekh137 August 12 2005 11:36 AM EDT

Who's Chet?

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] August 12 2005 12:36 PM EDT

Theres a little disclaimer at the top of this thread: "don't start another ToA vs. FF discussion".

I think you guys broke that condition. Also: Reading this thread you'd think this was DebateBlender, holy cow guys, there is a little over 30 pages of text on this thread.

Special J August 12 2005 12:49 PM EDT

All this about balancing a stat that is not unbalanced.

Every month there is a new
"I can't beat so and so unless I adapt a new strat to do so"

Knock it the hell off, seriously.

You win some, you lose some not every strat can beat every strat in the end, welcome to CB.

QBsutekh137 August 12 2005 2:04 PM EDT

/me smacks forehead.

Thank you, mrwuss! I will be sure to never debate something again when it is so very clear that everything is A-OK! CT, knock off this dissent! Everything's fine, and if you don't think so, you are wrong or a whiner. Seriously. Are we clear, Mister? Now, what were you saying about a DM-blocking hat?

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] August 12 2005 10:39 PM EDT

The wait is over, there's a new ToA in town! Time to pay off our wagers:

Everyone who had "within 30 days" gets paid by me, as I had the "30+ days" spread. Everyone who said "won't happen" owes me.

Chocolate Thunder August 12 2005 10:46 PM EDT

Bring on the DM Blockin' hat! I'll use that IF strategy i wanted to use instead of my new gimped tank... As for Mikel's new toy: zzzzzzzz. Can we have two leagues? One for the $80 million NW ToA teams and one for everyone else?

QBRanger August 12 2005 10:49 PM EDT


You still have no idea how very close you were to beating me with your old strat.

And you were 200k less MPR than me. If you would not have changed your strat you likely would have overcome me.

QBsutekh137 August 12 2005 10:50 PM EDT

Wait, what?

Is he more effective now? I tohught he was doing pretty well before? Thought he would do better with a ToA, but didn't think he was going to do it.


Next wager: How long before Top Ten (score) is regularly all ToAs?

Mikel August 12 2005 10:50 PM EDT

I've tested it thoroughly and it is a better setup than what I had. It doesn't take a genius to see what I've been gearing up for the last 2 months, as it was only a matter of time.
So please, if you have a problem with me, say it to me, and for your information, JON took away half of my 4 month NUB time. So enjoy it, but don't stop growing, cause I won't, and you can throw out the "after his NUB runs out, I bet he quits" joke as well. I set myself up as best I can to keep my $ flowing in... Long after my NUB expired.

QBsutekh137 August 12 2005 10:53 PM EDT

Mikel, I will be bold, and speak for myself, Bast, and CT all at once:

Not one of us has a single thing against you.

Our beef, collectively, is with the ToA. You are doing an exemplaray job of excelling abd being competitive, and I wouldn't change that for anything. More power to you, and I never once thought you would quit after your NUB was up.

AdminJonathan August 12 2005 11:17 PM EDT

You can stop acting all whiney about losing NUB time, Mikel. Everyone who abused the BA purchase bug did.

Mikel August 13 2005 12:23 AM EDT

I wasn't whining, I was merely clarifying what everyone wants to hear. "Mikel's NUB has finally expired." That means my growth will slow down, quite a few people were very worried about how high I would actually grow to before it expired.

I started on May 29th, NUB lasts 4 months. Mine ended on Aug 8th at 5:29 EDT instead of the initial Sept 29th or the minus 5 days that the other NUBs got that started at the same time as me. I got what I needed out of the NUB. In fact, I'm fine that it is over, my BA cost was approaching $800 each.

Since then, you have addressed what I did that got me where I am now so that it would be very hard to duplicate what I did.
VPR + Rewards
Max Tattoo

Going back on Topic, until we get some dedicated mages up here, the high Dex ToA still rules over all others. AMF and Seekers keeps the Mages down.

QBsutekh137 August 13 2005 12:26 AM EDT

Yeah, such a dearth of dedicated mages... I guess Black Card Situation is just chopped liver? *smile*

Relic August 13 2005 12:58 AM EDT

Blah, blah, blah.

/me buries the dead horse that has been beat down in this thread.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001SUQ">Dexterity Balancing Ideas?</a>