Bumps Will Be Deleted (in Public Record)

It has come to my attention that some people are changing the rules of their FS/WTB posts just for the sake of a bump. This will no longer be accepted from me.

In the case of FS/WTB posts it is very important that the player reading the post can be sure of what all the rules are for a bid, insta, or trade in that first reply. It is therefore important that you get it right the first time. The forum gives you a chance to review what you are about to say, I suggest people start making sure everything is there before they click send that second time.

Anyone who makes a FS/WTB post has only 5 minutes afterwards to change anything they are displeased with. Any change after that and their post will be deleted. Some reasons for changing the conditions for a sale, insta, trade, or such will be accepted but with only good reason. Such as you no longer have the item or you have made another deal which effects this one.

I encourage people to tell others about this so that they will understand what has happened to their post when they were only "conducting business as usual".

So, in essence you are saying that once a person pays for a FS/WTB post, they cannot change the sale at any time before the thread closes other than in the first 5 mins? I am sorry and I mean no disrespect but that is stupid. The rights of the seller are being completely diminished by this, because the buyer(s) can make any changes they wish, why can the seller not?

I feel that this is a little unfair to sellers because they did pay 5k for their post. So if its deleted, is there a refund? Where are the sellers rights?

I suspect its to stop stuff like this from occurring:

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001QqT

Now I suspect if you have a real change for your sale, thats ok, but to add little things to make your FS/WTB move to the top of forums is blatently unfair.

You want to take about sellers right, what about those sellers that play by the rules and dont bump their own threads. What about those sellers rights to have their posts stay near the top.

Blatant bumps are obviously not being championed by myself. Burn the blatant bumpers! =)

What Ranger is referring to is correct. Some trivial rule change such as "p/p accepted" is in my eyes a bump.

Is it really that hard to lay out a complete set of rules the first time? If you must make a correction because some change in the status quo has occurred, then fine. Otherwise you have no excuse.

Expect chat to become busy with players telling everyone about there sales.

why. my only problem with this is it is not killing anybody. stop trying to be neat all the time there are far more important things for an admin to be doing. what if i forget to say i accept payplans would it bother you that much if i added it. if this is done then we should be able to modify our posts.

I will say one more thing, then I will leave this thread be. If our FS/WTB threads functioned more like the Auction system where those that end first are at the top, then those who spend the money first and have the least amount of time left on their thread/sale would get the most benefit and not have to shamelessly bump.

I believe we have the auction system for that...

Glory,

Then one should use the auctions then.

And Megaman,

How many items have you sold in FS/WTB? I would think you already know what to put in your posts the initial time.


And MrBones;

Thats what chatops are for. To make sure chat is not spammed by people stating their sales.

Ranger how many times have you forgotten something?

Yep Ranger I know what chat ops are supposed to do.

Just stating a fact that chat is going to used even more to promote sales

I position on changing Bin, Buy Now, and interest rates is that they shouldn't happen often. If you make these changes several times a day I'll consider it excessive, but you as a seller have the right to change these numbers if a day goes by and nothing is selling.

People do forget to include things. Half of that is human nature, the other half is human condition. You are given three opportunities to correct you mistakes, once right after you write up the post, once when you are given the review page, and once more right after the post is sent. It shouldn't take much conditioning to include all of the important details within one of these three opportunities. In time you will learn to not miss the essential points of your deal.

Ignoring Mega, and staying on topic, I think it's fairly obvious that there is a difference between http://carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001Ssi being blatant and http://carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001Syy which is simply updating the terms of sale as necessary. It's a matter of admin discretion and Jon trusts their judgement.

Edit - These posts were deleted for starting a series of off-topic replies and for bordering on hostile remarks.

Spacegirl, 12:16 PM EDT
Spaceman[camperr], 12:18 PM EDT
MegamanV, 12:26 PM EDT
Spaceman[camperr], 12:29 PM EDT
MegamanV, 12:33 PM EDT
Spaceman[camperr], 12:35 PM EDT

Spaceman[camper] can post his on-topic opinion again if he so wishes.

vestax,
Can you be a little more clear on the consequences?

"Any change after that and their post will be deleted."

Do you just mean the bump post or the entire thread?

The entire thread. Removing the bump has no consequence to it. If you bump and I delete only the bump then you are still bumped, the only difference is that you post is now clean of all the extra replies that didn't mean much anyhow.

Thanks for asking.

Removing a bump will cause the post to drop back to its old position, undoing the effect of the bump.

I think that is the more reasonable approach unless you refund the posting fee.

So, remove the bump and fine the offender, as Shade has been doing?

If that's what Shade has been doing then that's what I'll do as well. It's better if the punishment is consistent.

Of course, deleting the bump will only undo the effect of the bump if it's done shortly after the bump. So combining this with a fine is a fine idea.

Out of curiosity, to what extent is bumping really a problem on CB2?

I know that it was a problem on CB1 because only 5 recent posts showed up on the front page. I really haven't noticed that great of a problem on CB2 since it can take a while before a post gets knocked off the Active Threads page.

I'm not saying that it's not a problem. I'm just asking to what extent is it a problem.

It might also help the cause if there was a warning about bumping on the FS/WTB main page. just a suggestion.

Well I will toss my two cents in here. It is on topic. I disagree with the topic of this post of several levels. That is simply my opinion. However, I will also mention that since you can no longer discuss commerce in chat, what is the point of restricting the use of commerce in forums?

Selling stuff is hard enough, the prices of items are falling fast, and these measures will only ensure that items are harder to sell and prices will further decline. Again, if that is a the true goal to encourage the recession, then that is an economic control measure and again I disagree with it, but I disagree with Greenspan often as well.

In the end, if the admins want to build more work for themselves, that fine. I'm just not sure what the goal is? Are the FS/WTB posts becoming that frequent? If they are, and people disagree with this policy, then that will encourage more sales, and thus in the end foster more sale posts than the old system did. So it will not decrease the number of sale posts, it will increase them as people are now finding that they not only have to deal with game changes and rules they dislike, but also a change in public policy that has existed pretty much since I started over 1 year ago. So this will also encourage more people to leave the game, which will further drive the economic recession. Again, if that is the goal, to put the economy into a deeper spiral, where BTh and ELS sell for less than 2mil each, and the only thing that sells at value is an elbow, corn, and morg, well I think this extra rule will further that decline two fold.

I seem to remember that often times when sweeping changes were to be made to public policy, things like polls, and other tools were used to see if others felt the same way, and that a majority of people would like to see a change. I guess we no longer have access to this type of discussion on cb2 as well? I have not heard or read one whiff of complaint from anyone, Vestax included, on any post about the frequest adjusting of sale conditions, and suddenly with out vote or discussion it is a law? That seems inherently wrong to me, and quite frankly very knee-jerk reactionary. Even Macheveli knew that a scared population was good, and angry population was not.

I see lots of people leaving cb2, lots of good old timers. I am good at seeing patterns. This is just another part of a bad pattern in my opinion.

You mean you want this warning "Note: 'bumping' posts to keep them at the top is inappropriate. Such replies will be deleted." moved to the front, as well?

bast,
"as well?"
Is the warning already posted somewhere? I don't see it. I admit that i often miss stuff like that.

PSB:
I had a hard time finding it myself. it is seen when you reply to a post just above the box you type in.

I generally avoid getting into these kind of threads, but my opinion in this case is that this entire issue is questionable.
Say, for the sake of argument,one is not a "hardcore 24-7" player, but a consistent (we'll call it "12-7") player. You pay your fee and start a thread in the morning, your time. By the time you're going to bed 12 hours later, it's off the page. I know I would want to bump it, blatantly, so that the "12-7" player on the other side of the planet who might be interested has a better chance of seeing it.
On top of the fee, I'm going to lose my thread and be fined just because I'm trying to "balance" my opportunities against those of the "hardcore 24-7" players?
My point is that a general "bumps are bad" is wrong, and "I will delete your post if I feel you've blatantly bumped" simply sounds more like "I have the power and I will use it."
Just an opinion, others may know more :)

So what if I want to sell my items without pay plans initially and later decide to accept pay plans because there're no bids? Surely you should be allow to change your FS thread such as lowering your prices or accepting pay plans when there's lack of interests. I would say that you put a minimum amount of time say 6 hrs before you are allow to change your FS thread.

LOL!!!!!

I knew FOR A FACT! before I even pasted the thread Rqanger put it was me, I knew it...everyone else does it but he pulls a way old thread FROM ME.

I love you.

anyway as someone stated in an earlier thread with this new forum layout bumps dont really matter as much as in cb1 where there were only 5 threads, as to where hear there are 50? or something

Actually Monty,

It was the only thread that I remembered it being that blatant.

But I LOVE YOU also.

awww ;)

I'm just wondering, if there's no reply in 24 hours, could we bump up our fs/wtb thread ? Because I've been doing that most of the time since CB 1, and I thought it's fair to bump up if there's no reply in 24 hours, because people might just missed the thread. Sometimes I missed few threads, and only realized it's there after it's closed.

Sefton, I did not choose to make up a new policy, rather I only made a choice to enforce an existing policy and lay out what I consider to be a bump or not. If Jon wants to allow bumps then take it up with him and have him change the rules as I am just the messenger in this case.

As for why I didn't make some feeler post first, I was approached by a very well respected player that there was a problem. As far as I could tell I was being asked simply to do my job. Personally, I thought I was just being nice by giving everyone fair warning. I did not have any intention of restricting trade, causing recession, forcing old players to leave, or any other crime you have accused me of.

I based my judgment on one thing I find to be very important, which is buyer's integrity. If you want to change rules and leave it so that each trade has unwritten conditions applied, then by all means do so. I'll step aside if that's what you all want me to do. But it is this quality which makes sellers apprehensive about making deals in FS/WTB.

I only wanted to do a good job and it seems you all want to bicker and argue so much that it's impossible for me to make a judgment that anyone can agree is fair. Honestly, I'm just waiting to here from Jon on this issue seeing as I work for him and not you.

And let me translate bluntly;


It has been a rule for a long time, it has been over looked in the past, people are complaining that rules are not being followed and no action is taken.

Break the rule now and action will be taken.

Case closed, and so is the thread.
Now get off Vestax's back for doing his appointed job.