CB2 NPC Banker Idea (in General)

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] August 22 2005 11:31 PM EDT

I ran cb2bank so I know what it's like to loan money out. Generally, it's rewarding and you make a profit here and there. And then comes along one or 2 players who default and POW! there goes all the profit and hard work you put into the bank. So, thinking out the the box, I would like the community to consider a cb2 npc banker.

The NPC Banker makes loans and charges interest. The interest gets paid to the cb2 bank teller. The borrower puts up a collateral item that covers the loan principal. If the loan is defaulted, the collateral item goes to auction. The proceeds goes to the cb2 bank teller. The banker can take deposits and pay interest, and that interest comes from the cb2 bank teller who is collecting interest on loans. If the bank teller has no funds to cover deposits, he can't take any deposits.

Result: there is no money created other than by players and that money gets redistributed fairly. No one gets ripped off. And everyone can get a loan if they need it.

Needed: the only thing needed is to set up the banker with cash to get the whole process started so he can make loans. Maybe that startup capital can come from the central bank.

Relic August 22 2005 11:34 PM EDT

Good rough idea, needs some tweaking but all n' all not a bad idea Barron.

Special J August 22 2005 11:35 PM EDT

Look at Ranger 's style of loaning and payplans, it is one I have adopted.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] August 22 2005 11:40 PM EDT

mrwuss, I'm not saying that all player to player loans would end. My guess is that with a structured npc banker they will diminish considerably. After all why would you want to worry about loans when you can fight? Loans are a necessary evil --yes, evil--why not let the npc banker take care of all that. It sure would clean up the forum posting loan mess. It would also avoid posts about players defaulting, and gripes and rip-offs, etc.

Special J August 22 2005 11:41 PM EDT

It would also be huge amounts of coding to put it in place.

Grim Reaper August 22 2005 11:44 PM EDT

Why not central bank be the one that does it.

LumpBot August 23 2005 12:16 AM EDT

Only thing that worries me is the fact some items get deleted or replaced. Imagine if someone used a CoBF to get a loan, they'd be filthy rich now

Undertow August 23 2005 1:52 AM EDT

I believe coding complaints should be voiced by no one but Jonathan. If he has a problem with the coding, but likes the idea, he'll say that.

Shark August 23 2005 2:11 AM EDT

loans are for dummies

Undertow August 23 2005 2:13 AM EDT

If you can grow in CB at a percentage that is larger than the interest of your loan, then your wrong.

Shark August 23 2005 2:28 AM EDT

any intelligent resourceful individual would have no need for a loan ,so who does that leave needing a loan? people who aren't so smart and resourceful..would be me guess..I saw someone give something to another on a loan the other day, 30 minuets later he had tossed it into the store..good grief ..Got to look at who you are dealing with in those matters. That " IF" you tossed out there is a BIG IF ,if even existent

Undertow August 23 2005 2:32 AM EDT

I'd say finding a good low interest rate loan worked on your terms and beneficial to you would be "resourceful".

Maelstrom August 23 2005 2:36 AM EDT

Why not add computer-controlled opponents, or maybe a 'quest' mode?
A: Computer opponents would add zero gameplay...

This whole game is about interacting with other players. Jon isn't going to add an NPC that reduces interactions between players.

Shark August 23 2005 2:36 AM EDT

LOL okay :)

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] August 23 2005 6:23 PM EDT

"This whole game is about interacting with other players. Jon isn't going to add an NPC that reduces interactions between players."

Maelstrom, so why did Jon create a Blacksmith NPC? Why is there a Tattoo Artist instead of a skill that can be trained to allow players to ink their own tattoos? NPCs are often a good addition and won't necessarily decrease player interaction---unless you think the interactions related to Monty are interesting and love to read all about it in the forums. An NPC Banker would avoid those kinds of issues to a large extent.

[SoM]CupofJoe [Peoples Bank of Carnage] August 23 2005 6:30 PM EDT

Or everyone can take part in The People's Bank of Carnage. :)

horrble plug :P

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] August 23 2005 6:56 PM EDT

CupofJoe, the reality is that after awhile you will tire of keeping track of all these loans--I know from experience. You will burn out. Right now, I congratulate you on a fine job. One or 2 defaults will hurt, and because you hope the defaulter will eventually pay you, you won't be screaming to the admins for resets.

The answer is an NPC Banker. Let the players individually risk their own assets for a loan. Loan money is generated by interest income and after awhile becomes a stable but gentle money sink for the game as well. I haven't really heard any contrary arguments worth their salt yet.

[T]Vestax August 23 2005 6:59 PM EDT

If one or two defaults out of so many loans can actually kill all of your profit, then your rates are too low or your loans are not made with enough collateral or security.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] August 23 2005 7:04 PM EDT

Vestax, the problem is that many loans are in the millions at this point in the game. Collateral is a good idea and I've used it. The trouble is that the booking and accounting becomes tedious.

Really, what's the downside of an NPC Banker? I haven't heard any yet.

[SoM]CupofJoe [Peoples Bank of Carnage] August 23 2005 7:07 PM EDT

I'm just having a hard time understanding how you would take collateral. Also, the only way to enforce would be through resets and bans, which may not be so bad, but what if someone is $10000 short and just can't get it in time. A human would be like okay I'll wait a couple hours. A NPC will be like Error Error danger Will Robinson and that guy is reset.

Now I realize that I am running a bank and I appreciate your kind words, but please don't think of this as a biased argument. It just seems that it would cause more headaches than benefits.

Also many of the people who get loans for the first time don't have collateral. What about them? Would this be a bank only for the higher level characters with potential collateral items. I'm not saying that I like or dislike your idea. I'm just saying that I see a lot of holes that need filling before it could work.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] August 23 2005 7:10 PM EDT

Did you read the original post where it roughly addresses some of your questions?

And if you are new and don't have much "collateral" you probably shouldn't be trying to get a 2 mil loan, right?

Special J August 23 2005 7:12 PM EDT

If you are new then you don't need a loan,

Get in a top 10 clan, and fight your heart out in money time.

[SoM]CupofJoe [Peoples Bank of Carnage] August 23 2005 7:18 PM EDT

Its just one more human element taken away from the game. There's always extenuating circumstances that can affect people's lives. Can the NPC take this into account. I don't think that it can. Now will the collateral item be the market price? What would determine market price if so? Your original post didn't really answer any of my questions.

Here's what I got from your original post:

I ran a CB2 Bank made some profits, lost some profits, NPC

NPC Bank Makes loans + charges interest
Loanee needs collateral item which = principal of loan
If default loan to auctions proceeds to bank
Can take deposits if it can afford to

Need banker setup with money

Correct me if I'm wrong.

RIPsalt3d August 23 2005 7:27 PM EDT

NPCs are often a good addition and won't necessarily decrease player interaction

That doesn't sound like an argument brimming with certainty. My translation (comes with free assumptions!) is: decreasing player interaction is worth it in this instance. In other words, the game should be responsible for protecting people from their own stupidity, ignorance, misfortune, take your pick. In any case, I don't think you've refuted successfully the argument that an NPC banker would reduce player interaction.

I think a player controlled loan system could work. Nominate interest rate, payment frequency, collateral etc. Once both players agree, the terms are enforced by the game. Maybe even a 'Current Loan Applications' page or something, where hopeful loanees can post their desired terms, then spam chat to have someone accept them. :)

Special J August 23 2005 7:35 PM EDT

"In other words, the game should be responsible for protecting people from their own stupidity, ignorance, misfortune, take your pick."

No it should not, go outside and get that treatment.

RIPsalt3d August 23 2005 8:01 PM EDT

Thanks, mrwuss, for explaining to the idiots out there that I was demonstrating the weakness in that argument.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] August 23 2005 8:04 PM EDT

Tell you what. In this case decreasing player interaction for the purpose of 1) asking for loans 2) offering loans 3) creating a public record 4) listing all the loan payments 5) listing the collateral 6) making all the disclaimers 7) interest postings 8) loan update postings 9) wondering why the player is not logging on and paying his loan postings 10) complaining about getting ripped off postings 11) talking about resetting the defaulter postings etc, etc etc. IS A GOOD THING! We don't really need or want this kind of player interaction in my opinion.

I'd rather read posts about the game, and strategies, and what's for sale--stuff like that. When CB2BANK was rolling I got alot of complaints about all the bank related postings. At the time I thought "so what", but now I think I'd rather not see post after post about numbers 1-11 above. That's my opinion, anyway.

Special J August 23 2005 8:09 PM EDT

You should have actualy stated,

the game is not going to put items into place to protect idiots from idiots,
(read, One idiot vs. One idiot).

[SoM]CupofJoe [Peoples Bank of Carnage] August 23 2005 8:19 PM EDT

Could you add a new Forum Topic?

Banks and Loans

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] August 23 2005 8:19 PM EDT

The game already protects idiots.

Look at all the confirmations for deleting a character, or unlearning skills, stats, and spells. Or having the option to unretire a character after you accidentally retired it. If player interaction is so sacred why are we constantly being encouraged to use auctions instead of just selling to players. But I don't want to stray from this argument.

I still haven't heard a good argument against the NPC Banker. Is protecting idiots from idiots the best you can do? What's the down side? I believe it would end up being a positive for the game. Problem is, we are encouraged to "think outside the box" but when we do it becomes a little uncomfortable.

Starseed^Lure August 25 2005 11:53 AM EDT

There is no good reason that this should not exist, except if Jon doesn't want to code it. It simply provides players who wish to loan and borrow with a secure way of making a transaction.

It's foolish to compare this concept with that of FORS #8; that suggestion has to do with npc opponents which I don't interpret from Barron's post.

I see no downsides, except if you're a person who was going to try and scam a loaner! ;p

AdminJonathan August 25 2005 11:54 AM EDT

No good reason? I think Joe's was quite articulate.

Maelstrom August 25 2005 11:59 AM EDT

Another problem with an NPC banker is, where would the money come from? We all know that Jon is very much against introducing additional money into the game, so this banker couldn't just create money.

If it were to happen at all, other players would first have to invest money into the banker before there was money to be loaned out. In that case, the banker would just be an unnecessary intermediate step: why not just deal with the other player directly?

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] August 25 2005 3:11 PM EDT

It doesn't make any sense to me that we don't have a bank. This game is played by many young people and I would think it would be beneficial to encourage habits of saving money VS spending it. But I suppose this game, and Jon, aren't in the business of teaching good life habits for young people. ;P

I'd rather see a bank with a little bit of interest, or something, then a banker that gives out lots of money. One, it makes it a little easier to afford some of the expensive items in this game, and helps preventing impulse buying. Jon hates the idea of a bank with a passion. For some reason saving money in this game is really frowned upon, even though it takes millions and millions of dollars to afford a couple rare items.

[SoM]CupofJoe [Peoples Bank of Carnage] August 25 2005 3:35 PM EDT

It sounds to me like you want half of a bank. You want something you can put money into to make more money but something that doesn't give loans. A real bank does both :)

I don't feel that it is Jon's, my, or anyone else's responsibility to raise children. If these young people need to develop good life habits they should talk to their parents. Speaking of good life habits, should we subject these young players to a fake world without a banking system. A world where money grows on trees and people do not take out loans or have any needs or wants. Because real life skills should involve real life applications. The real world has real banks that loan real money and that take on real investors. Real loans are not free in the real world.

I also disagree with you that saving is looked down upon. There are many people that save money within this game. Not everyone asks for a loan.

A banker who gives out lot's of money is not a banker, he is a loan shark.

Lastly, The People's Bank of Carnage was created to function like a real bank for the most part. It takes in investors it hands out loans. It sponsors events. It performs with no bias. It has turned down loan requests. It has accepted loan requests. It has required collateral items at some point. It has also not required them. Like a bank it performs it's operations on a case by case basis. I feel it's a very accurate representation of a bank. The only difference is my rates don't change daily. The last thing that this bank is that an NPC Bank is not is that the bank is HUMAN, making for an understanding bank. 1's and 0's do not take into account the fact that you are going to be out of town for the weekend and will have to pay one day late.

I'm done with my rant. I await responses.

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] August 25 2005 3:44 PM EDT

CupOfJoe, there was a rather innocuous bank in CB1. It didn't provide loans, but it allowed players to put money into it in hopes of making a bit of interest off of it. It usually wasn't very much, but thats not really the point, just being able to put off spending the money for a while, and gaining something for waiting is the whole point to which I'm talking about. Loaning money? I don't think there should be ANY automated loan system in any game, or in real life. Just so you know, that was no part of my comment. ;)

[SoM]CupofJoe [Peoples Bank of Carnage] August 25 2005 3:51 PM EDT

I apologize. I misunderstood your post. I have no problems at all with your suggestion.

However, my last position on the subject of an NPC Bank stands firm :)

Reebok August 25 2005 3:52 PM EDT

No offense Joe, but it seems like you just don't like any ideas anyone has here, well except the People's Bank of Carnage that is.


AdminJonathan August 25 2005 3:57 PM EDT

Verifex: the CB1 bank was one of the worst ideas ever implemented.

Hell will freeze over before it comes to CB2.

[SoM]CupofJoe [Peoples Bank of Carnage] August 25 2005 3:57 PM EDT

You should read the post right above yours :)

[SoM]CupofJoe [Peoples Bank of Carnage] August 25 2005 4:03 PM EDT

You do have a point and you are right. I am not a big fan of the main idea that was proposed. I've only seen one other idea and said I didn't have a problem with that. Lastly it's true, I do have an affinity towards the bank, let it be known.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] August 25 2005 4:08 PM EDT

I want to address the question of "where would the money to start the bank come from"

If depositors are putting money into the bank, the bank can make short term loans and generate income. After sufficient activity on both sides, the bank could generate enough money to make larger loans, and so on. As long as the loans are secured with an item of value that can be auctioned, the bank has little risk.

I really don't understand why some consider this such a vile idea and relegate it to FORS. I do believe that it would provide a safe, trustworthy service. More importantly it would not create new money as would a bank that just gives out interest.

Aside from that, it may be a coding nightmare, but Jon didn't address that issue. That would be the only downside that I could see.

Wonderpuff August 25 2005 11:31 PM EDT

But CupOfJoe, aren't your rates actually the highest of any lender? By my reckoning, you run at %5.3/week for short term and 7.2%/week for short term.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] August 26 2005 12:57 AM EDT

Example: An NPC Banker could pay out 2% interest per week on a deposit and charge 3% per week on a loan. Eventually there will be sufficient money to provide bigger loans. In time, it would work for the benefit of all in providing interest for your cash and low interest loans.

[SoM]CupofJoe [Peoples Bank of Carnage] August 26 2005 6:04 AM EDT

Please take into account that I take on investors and make payouts to them.
If you look I payout over $200,000 weekly at the moment.

Also the numbers that you pulled for Short Term Loans are if people are not making any payments. If people do make payments then no the interest rate is not what you claim it to be. The interest rate for a short term loan overall is variable to the payments made to the bank.

As far as the long term loan. You are accurate. But keep in mind that a long term loan is designed, in essence, to be for a long term. This gives everyone a set interest rate to expect upon payment.

Lastly, you have a loan out with me. I state in the loan application to read the charter. If you had any questions you should have asked. If you feel that my practices are wrong or misleading, I apologize. I am also open to suggestions on how to make this bank better. Apparently, with your last post, you understood the rates that the bank has in place. If you didn't agree with them you didn't have to get a loan from the bank. I did not force your hand. However, again, if you have any suggestions, I am all ears.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] August 26 2005 1:18 PM EDT

I rest my case.

Player interaction is great and an important part of the enjoyment of this game. But when it comes to loans, well, it sucks.

A NPC CB2 Banker would allow everyone to work under the same rules, regulations and consequences.

AdminJonathan August 26 2005 1:19 PM EDT

well, I guess Barron's convinced the only one who matters here

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