Do we need to deal with ToA's this change month? (in General)


Quark August 30 2005 9:34 AM EDT

I've been trying to use the RoE to build a reasonably competitive non ToA tank from a 2 minion farm, and it's not going well. No matter how much I buff my dex to hit the ToA tank, the inherent PTH on the ToA still dings me quite often, even with 65k dex vs. 35k dex. And my native strength & dex don't grow as fast as the ToA strength and dex, even discounting EXP spent on bloodlust (to keep up on the damage side) and base protection.

What does everyone else think - do we need to tone down the ToA a bit? Especially given how it's dominating the top strategies (that and the axbow).

Duke August 30 2005 9:41 AM EDT

You try to pick on a very big lobby.

QBJohnnywas August 30 2005 9:41 AM EDT

I'm not sure it's the fact that they are ToAs at the top - it's the size of the tattoos. Ranger has the largest tattoo of any kind in the game - given that I would be very surprised if he wasn't at the top. And there are plenty of non ToA's in the top 50. A huge percentage of the top 50 are actually ToE's.

With regard to the Toa tank vs non ToA tank it is completely possible to be a non ToA tank and be successful. The character Failure is one of the best tanks in the game and is the proud wearer of a ToE.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 30 2005 9:43 AM EDT

Well, I've just realised that ToE's get worse the higher you get, and are rubbish by the time you hit the top.

As they reduce a direct amount of thier level, this is great at low levels and low damages, but as damage increases, even though the amount reduced increases when the tattoo levels, it just can't keep up.

A 600K tattoo would reduce around 60K from every hit you take. Great when facing damage around that mark, but if your facing blows (for example only) of around 1 mil per hit (the highest MPB), taking 60K a hit off that is nothing.

A 600K ToA on the other hand, while again providing a direct increase, gives a lot more bang for it's buck.

Oh, and TBF's are crap. So that leaves ToA s and minion tattoos.

QBJohnnywas August 30 2005 9:47 AM EDT

The ToA is probably the best of the tattoos regardless of the minion amount. It works just as well on a single minion team as a four minion team. The tank is the same size regardless. The ToE on the other hand since it's changes has become far more useful on multi teams. And that is when it shines now. Use a decent amount of AC and a few minions and the ToE minion can withstand a lot of damage.

And when you're talking MPB who can withstand a hit of a million easily?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 30 2005 9:51 AM EDT

;)

OK, I'll use a more reasonable one of 300K.

A 600K ToE would reduce about 20% total damage per hit. Seeing as effectiveness is reduced by a third for non wearers, that's only a 6.66% reduction in damage.

From a massive 600K Tattoo.

That's poor.

QBJohnnywas August 30 2005 9:55 AM EDT

That is poor maybe but those non wearers can also add AC - which as has always been said is far more useful the higher up you go. My wall has 230 AC on it at the moment. Which is shaving nearly 50% off already in terms of damage. Add the ToE aura to that and AMF and you are reducing damage by a huge amount. Any form of damage reduction is ok by me! =)

QBsutekh137 August 30 2005 9:58 AM EDT

It's a tricky thing... On one hand, I am not altogether sure ToAs are "over-powered". The top folks are tops because of large MPR, huge NW, and good leveraging of the ToA.

On the other hand, it is pretty dis-heartening to think that soon the Top Ten could be all ToA wearers. It just feels -- stagnant. I think there are some very neat strategic subtleties in the Top Ten as they jockey for position, but by and large you've got ToA tanks and walls. I think that is boring.

However, I have no ideas on how to change the current situation, so there is know use me flapping my gums about it.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 30 2005 10:01 AM EDT

Maybe poor is a bad choice of words. What I mean is that on non wearers, versus a 300K hit, a 600K ToE is about the same as wearing 32AC.

If Ranger inked his nearl 1 Mil (let's round it up to a mil) ToA to a ToE it would reduce about 100K from all hits. So facing a 300K hit (a nice MPB figure) that's a 33% reduction. 11% on all other minions. So that's like 157AC / 52AC. Easily reachable with armour, especially if tattoo slot not used, and a body armour/cloak used instead.

Plus, AC is percentage based, so won't lose effectiveness as damage increases.

157AC would still provide about a 33% damage reduction, even when facing Krangs 600K MPB, while a 1 mil ToE would then only provide about 16.6% reduction.

Armour > ToE.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 August 30 2005 10:02 AM EDT

a non ToA has no chance of catching up in the DX department when compared to a ToA tank, the only true "bonus" a non ToA tank has over a ToA tank is the ability to have a large AC. I am predicting that once weapon "+"s reach the higher levels (150 and above) non ToA tanks will become more competitive because the lack of DX will not be as apparent when it comes to hitting your opponent. (Somewhat like Cb1 the Todd/Sutekh DX wars, in the end, 0 DX and huge PTH won out)

QBJohnnywas August 30 2005 10:02 AM EDT

The top ten currently has six ToA's, a ToJ, two ToE's and an FF. That's not what I would call domination of the game. Huge (non-tattoo) NW counts for a lot of the domination as well I'd suggest. If there is a weapon capable of hitting an MPB of a million in the game that's the overpowered part....IMO anyhow....

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 30 2005 10:05 AM EDT

"but by and large you've got ToA tanks and walls."

:)

That's because ToA s are the best tattoos and Wall are needed to get the most out of MgS s to slow down mages.

Unless something changes, the top will always be ToA s + Walls.

:(

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 30 2005 10:06 AM EDT

"The top ten currently has six ToA's, a ToJ, two ToE's and an FF. That's not what I would call domination of the game."

Dude, that's 60%

60% of the top dogs use ToA s.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 30 2005 10:08 AM EDT

Actually, you stated 11 tattoos there! ;)

QBJohnnywas August 30 2005 10:13 AM EDT

Yes, but those same 60% are the highest NW by far in the game too. And for the most part amongst the highest MVP's when it comes to clan points. Probably buying all available BA too. Those are the things that make them dominate.

I suggest that it's actually the weapons and NW that need to be looked at. We have a max tattoo level - and although we have the NW/PR link and it's affect on rewards - perhaps a similar levelling needs to be done with weapons? So that regardless of it's power you can only use power suitable for your pr level. Might be interesting - might also put some life back into rentals?

QBJohnnywas August 30 2005 10:14 AM EDT

I thought you were the one who was good with numbers GL? Impending fatherhood ruining your brain?!??! lol

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 30 2005 10:43 AM EDT

:P

The amount of Endurance granted by a ToE was lessened. I can see how this would have been overpowered when we were all at low levels, someone with a big enough ToE could have become just about immune (well, taking 75% of everything..) to all the damage thrown at them.

But, now with have max tattoo levels based on PR. Maybe the Endurance granted should be raised again. No one will be able to give a big ToE to a small character in order to dominate the lower ranks.

AC > ToE

The only thing going for a ToE is the AMF backlash reduction. But in general, everyone using a ToE (Including me) would be better off swaping it out for some AC instead.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 30 2005 10:55 AM EDT

There are 6 ToA s in the top ten. That's 60%.

In fact, the top 5 all use ToA s.


100% of the top 5 use a single type of tattoo.

flamewind August 30 2005 10:57 AM EDT

It is your choice not to use a ToA yourself. If you wish to base your stat on a tank, use a ToA. Each tattoo has its own purpose. If I use a ToBF on a mage and I stated that I couldn't kill SMToEs (with CoC or MM), would I call for a nerf on the ToE? No, simply the purpose of a ToBF is not to defeat CoC or MM mages. The purpose of a RoE is to gain exp, the purpose of a ToA is to create a strong tank. If it does its job, why make it harder to do its job? And the reason it's dominating the top strategies is because tanks can easily do a ton of damage. Unlike a mage, you just have to upgrade your weapon high enough and you'll do more. A mage needs exp, a tank needs cash, and most of the top players have a lot of cash. So they use tanks.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] August 30 2005 11:00 AM EDT

GJ Flame. The ToA is still fine, and I'm sure FF/FB still beats ToA.

Part-time Barman August 30 2005 11:01 AM EDT

flamewind wrote:
"simply the purpose of a ToBF is not to defeat CoC or MM mages"

The purpose of the TBF is not to defeat anything. lol

QBJohnnywas August 30 2005 11:05 AM EDT

The TBF could be so good. Boost it's damage output some or apply that flame output to all minions in the team a la ToE. Otherwise it's becoming like that nasty ornament from your auntie that you hide in the cupboard until she comes round.....

Quark August 30 2005 11:10 AM EDT

Duly noted flamewind. I'm actually building base stats to eventually re-ink my 220k ToE into something at the end of changemonth. I'm not doing too bad, but ToA's still beat me even when the ToA minion's stats are lower. I figured I should be able to match up with a ToA tank in a 4 minion team with my use of a RoE on my tank in a two minion setup. It's proving harder to do than I thought, which is why I ask.

flamewind August 30 2005 11:15 AM EDT

I remember Jon saying somewhere that he didn't want us to depend on items to win? Or something like that. Maybe I'm imagining things.
Well anyway, I think we're all dependent on tattoos to win. It'd be funny to see what would happen if Jon disabled tattoos for a month. Actually, not really.

AdminJonathan August 30 2005 11:30 AM EDT

I can't picture a scenario where I would say something as broadly incorrect as "you shouldn't need items to win."

flamewind August 30 2005 11:32 AM EDT

Oh well, nevermind then.

Chocolate Thunder August 30 2005 12:03 PM EDT

I've been thinking about this alot.. as I'm one of the silly people that refuses to use a ToA. Its not the ToA in itself that causes the issues... its the DBs + ToA + Visa Card/camping that causes issues.

How does that get fixed? No idea. Maybe a buff to Ax/Exbows, maybe a change to EC, maybe making MM seek tanks, maybe nothing at all and wait the non-linear aspects of NW coupled with the linear aspects of DD to finally let the mages catch the tanks (though i have my doubts on that), maybe its just time to grin and bear it and fight amoungst ourselves for the top non-ToA team title :D

QBsutekh137 August 30 2005 12:06 PM EDT

GL, totally agree...ToE gets more and more useless at the top levels.

Johnnywas is right too -- the top dogs are top because of MPR and massive net worth. That is why I can't rightly say "ToAs are overpowered".

But one thing to remember is that the top dogs have huge NW because they are competing with _each other_. Ask Bast about some of the smaller ToA folks who have risen to beat her, even when they barely had her bested by NW, had smaller MPRs, and smaller tattoos.

Another thing that some of top ToA folks are fond of saying is that if a magic-based team spent the same NW on a team that they could compete with the ToAs. If that's true, why have none of the top ToA guys defected to using a DD familiar? I see people switching to ToA all the time (DAWG and Mikel would be semi-recent examples). I cannot recall the last time I saw a ToA switch to a DD familiar. Why is that?

Come on, Sefton...switch to magic! Let's see if a mage team really can compete with a ToA team when pumping in the same net worth! *smile*

Chocolate Thunder August 30 2005 12:09 PM EDT

I'd love to see people at the top switch to magic... my score would skyrocket!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 30 2005 12:12 PM EDT

Flamewind;

"It is your choice not to use a ToA yourself."

Just as it's my choice to field a team of 4 enchanters... With no form of damage, they aren't going to do well at all, but it's my choice. It's my choice to use a Tulwar on a tank instead of a Morg. It's gonna do crap damage compared to a Morg, but hey, it's my choice...

"If you wish to base your stat on a tank, use a ToA."

Great. You wanna make a tank, use a ToA. There's strategy.

"Each tattoo has its own purpose. If I use a ToBF on a mage and I stated that I couldn't kill SMToEs (with CoC or MM), would I call for a nerf on the ToE?"

What? If you used a ToBF on a Tank and couldn't kill SMToEs would it be any different? Some tiems here are just useless. ToBF s, Tulwars, DCM s, etc.

"If it does its job, why make it harder to do its job?"

If it does its job *far* better than anything else, of course it's a problem. I'm starting to belive that the ToA does it's job *far* better than any other tattoo. Isn't that cause for concern?

"And the reason it's dominating the top strategies is because tanks can easily do a ton of damage. Unlike a mage, you just have to upgrade your weapon high enough and you'll do more."

It's not easy. The 1 Mil hitting Morg is around 45 Million in NW. But on the other hand, all a Mage has to do is up their DD spell to do more damage. A lot more easier than upping damage on a Tank.

"A mage needs exp, a tank needs cash, and most of the top players have a lot of cash. So they use tanks."

No. Tanks need xp as well. Stick the 45 Mil Morg on a Tank with no Strength, and it won't do anything. Have no dex and you'll hardly hit.

But. A ToA can drastically lessen the amount of XP Tanks need to be effective.

Karmic Mishap [Soup Ream] August 30 2005 12:12 PM EDT

And Sut throws down the gauntlet... but by now, it seems clear that for a mage team to beat a TOA-tank team, the NW involved would have to be much, much higher. One reason is the fact that the TOAs grant an inherent PTH, making DBs need to be THAT much bigger. In addition, the DBs don't stack well with Evasion anymore, which seems to be a lot of the problem with the TOE as well, since it doesn't stack with Protection well. Weren't these things used more when the were more powerful?

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] August 30 2005 12:13 PM EDT

OK Sut, by all my tank gear for cb2 at a decent market value and I will :) Let me sink 80+mil NW into my DB's :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 30 2005 12:16 PM EDT

:)

At the moment, high net worth is ruling the top. The only tattoo that uses / increase the potential of any NW (as Sut has said many times) is the ToA.

That is why the ToA is the only tattoo worth using.

DD does great damage, but it's fixed. Physical damage can be boosted by XP, NW, Items and a single Tattoo.

Combine PR with NW and a ToA and you hvae an unbeatable combination.

The RoE is a good idea to being DD damage back in line, but the ToA is already established at the top.

Starseed^Lure August 30 2005 12:24 PM EDT

The ToA is overpowered. I feel that it is a basic problem. It is the only tattoo that keeps pace with its level. While all the other tattoos, barring RoE which has it's own intrinsic balance, tend to wane in relative power as you reach higher and higher pr, the ToA with its added PTH keeps swinging away. Add the fact that anyone in their right mind will leverage that advantage with huge NW and you have an overpowered tattoo.

flamewind August 30 2005 12:31 PM EDT

"Great. You wanna make a tank, use a ToA. There's strategy. "
Of course. But I did mean, if you want to base your strategy on a tank, having the tank do the most damage.

"What? If you used a ToBF on a Tank and couldn't kill SMToEs would it be any different? Some tiems here are just useless. ToBF s, Tulwars, DCM s, etc.
"
Well, you wouldn't use a ToBF on a tank, now would you? :) And yeah ToBF isn't that great but the CoBF is fun in CB1 tourneys.

"If it does its job *far* better than anything else, of course it's a problem. I'm starting to belive that the ToA does it's job *far* better than any other tattoo. Isn't that cause for concern?"
How does it do its job far better? If there was a tattoo that enhanced enchantments/spells, and grew at the same curve, would that be overpowered as well? If non ToA tanks could consistently beat ToA tanks, what's the point in having a ToA? And well, no other tattoo adds to stats, so you can't really compare them.

"It's not easy. The 1 Mil hitting Morg is around 45 Million in NW. But on the other hand, all a Mage has to do is up their DD spell to do more damage. A lot more easier than upping damage on a Tank. "
Hey they have the cash, they use it however they want. But at equal levels, tanks do more damage than mages. (hence the name. I think.) Well they ought to, else, why have a tank? I have a tank simply because you can technically up your damage two ways; by training and by upgrading weapons. Again, if tanks aren't as effective as mages, why have a tank?

"No. Tanks need xp as well. Stick the 45 Mil Morg on a Tank with no Strength, and it won't do anything. Have no dex and you'll hardly hit. "
Tanks do, but again, you're technically doubling the rate of increase of damage by spending money also. And tanks do not need as much experience that mages do. Mages can only up their damage with experience. Tanks can up it with either cash or experience. And so experience is not essential of a tank's damage; sure you need some, but stick the 45 Mil Morg on a tank with 100k HP/STR/DEX and he could probably defeat some high mages. Well stick a 45 Mil Elbow on him as well.

Simply put, tanks need networth and experience to be strong whereas a mage needs only experience. The ToA may sure increase experience, but that's only half the ability to do damage. (Theoretically..) And since no other tattoos add to stats, except say the RoE, you can't really say that the ToA is overpowered to say, a Fire Familiar (I miss ToF), simply because "his ToA adds 200k str and dex but my FF only does 30k damage." Although, you might compare the damage the ToA helps with, but then there's also networth.. Okay I'm going to shut up and refrain from commenting now..

Chocolate Thunder August 30 2005 12:31 PM EDT

80 million NW DBs are about +194 or so. +194 evasion with no dexterity would do what exactly? My guess is that it would take large non-ToA tanks down to a single hit against you... ToA tanks would still probably get doubles. You'd still get hurt hard by AMF. Go ahead at try it, sounds like a great idea.

QBJohnnywas August 30 2005 12:32 PM EDT

It is possible to compete with other tattoos but their NW has to be high. However, despite what people - GL take a bow - say about ToE's, the tattoos of that type in the top 50 are nowhere near the level of the ToA's in the same area. Mine is 380k level and is competing with ToA's nearly 200k level higher. And those ToA's need NW in weapons on top of that.

However, NW is always going to be king here - imo - because you can boost your power very very quickly with cash injectiion. Unlike XP which you have to earn - and that's take time....

QBJohnnywas August 30 2005 12:39 PM EDT

*that take's time

sorry I'm being fed wine to celebrate my forthcoming wedding day! Post to follow.....lol

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 30 2005 12:42 PM EDT

*Take a Bow*

Johnny, imagine Ranger inked to a ToE and loaned it to you. (And that your max tattoo level is 1 mil). Would you rather have 100K off of every hit? Or 600K extra Str, Dex and extra pth?

But you're not a tank though...

Just one thing Flamewind;

"Again, if tanks aren't as effective as mages, why have a tank?"

Again, if mages aren't as effective as tanks, why have a mage?

As for DBs, theoritically, you would need at least +165 to negate the two dex based hits. Thats above an attackers pth. With evasion being *nothing* at that level of DB, you then have to negate both the pth on the weapon, and the pth from the ToA.

+100 from the weapon? I dread to think how much pth a 600K ToA gives, let alone any higher...

QBJohnnywas August 30 2005 12:49 PM EDT

I'm happy enough being mage GL you know that! I'd be the first to admit that a ToE the size of Ranger's ToA wouldn't be enough to be at the top. But couple that with the game's largest FB or CoC and you might be looking at something......

Meanwhile for non ToA success stories look at Vestax's character.... primarily a mage team; a familiar tattoo - in and out of the top ten on a regular basis. The one thing that gives the advantage to tanks is seekers. Seekers are the problem for mage vs tank.... a multi minion team with a CoC mage at the back can beat a ToA tank hands down if they're equal size - unless seekers are equipped....

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 30 2005 12:56 PM EDT

One last question from me for people to ponder.

Ignore that ToA might be too powerful, or the NW-PR link, or massive amounts of cash spent on weapons.


Is there any other strategy, including combinations of items, that's as or more effective than a ToA Tank?


If so, why isn't it in the top 5?

QBJohnnywas August 30 2005 1:08 PM EDT

If there is a reason for the ToA's power it's this: there is no other item that puts extra XP directly into the hands of a minion. The familiar tattoos add a minion; the ToE arguably may add extra hp (if you believe that damage reduction equates to extra HP) but only the ToA takes the place of extra XP on your minion. Only the ToA gives you the option of spending your XP earned elsewhere. So what the ToA is giving you is what the RoE is supposed to do and that is extra XP. If the fire familiar for instance was changed so it was an increase in the wearer's FB instead of an extra minion then you would see mage teams competing in the top five. Imagine an FB mage having the option of plowing that extra XP into his HP instead of splitting between HP/FB. - Huge Mage....

flamewind August 30 2005 1:08 PM EDT

Mages save money, and can damage more than one minion at a time, that's all I can see which makes them effective enough. Why get a tank that would do the same damage as a mage of the same level; why pay for something you can get for free?

Karmic Mishap [Soup Ream] August 30 2005 1:10 PM EDT

I liked somebody's recent suggestion of a ranged-only DD spell... it might be a viable option for a TOA mage! :p

QBJohnnywas August 30 2005 1:11 PM EDT

Actually that's a nice idea - a mage ToA.... augmenting the DD spell instead of ST/DX. I'd buy that for a dollar!

[T]Vestax August 30 2005 1:12 PM EDT

It's time I answered GL's question I suppose.

QBJohnnywas August 30 2005 1:16 PM EDT

Yes Vestax answer it.... unless seekers are equipped of course...

[T]Vestax August 30 2005 1:21 PM EDT

The strat I have now is my best answer, it still needs 10 mil NW in the right places, but that should be it.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] August 30 2005 1:38 PM EDT

Just for a little levity:
" If there were more mages up here, the strategies the top 5 used would be a little different, I think." ToA User, Tuesday, August 30, 2005.

And now, on with our show:
"Again, if tanks aren't as effective as mages, why have a tank?"
"Again, if mages aren't as effective as tanks, why have a mage?"

Define 'effective'. To me, it has something to do with 'relative ability' or 'comparability'. If a 1k MPR team, using a ToX under max size, with enough NW to boost to 100k PR can beat every team below it and every team above it to a max of either 10m MPR or 100m PR, is the ToX overpowered? If you had to be more than 100 times the size of any ToX team to beat it, would the ToX be the problem?

"It's the NW!" Stuff it. Yes, any team can compensate for lack of MPR with NW. But what is the upper limit? Does a team with $100k more NW but 15% less MPR do in its opponent, regardless of strategy? What about $300m more NW but 95% less MPR? (Kindly remember the Dawg experiment: mortgage-payment-esque money dumping didn't do him any good 'til he switched up to the ToA. When he bought some MPR to go with his NW, he got _even better_.)

"a multi minion team with a CoC mage at the back can beat a ToA tank hands down if they're equal size - unless seekers are equipped...."

Equal size being the issue: equal size meaning PR? So a stupidly low 10% MPR with enough money attached to it would be considered "equal" to a character that was at at least 50% MPR?

"Neji. Seriously." (TAB, Krang, Mikel, Al, Gyaxx, Imp/Neji [whomever gets to wear the big ToA], Toons [who knows what's going on there? Draws back when regularly doing something and equipped with a ToA], Spid [presumably], The Minotaur) There isn't really anyone nonToA who is any threat to Bartlett. Al dropped his AMF and will now draw to Bartlett maybe 1 out of 50 -- but that's not the tank, it's the mage. Look at the PR list, which (reminder!) accounts for NW. Where is the (back to the beginning!) 'relative ability' or 'comparability'?

QBJohnnywas August 30 2005 2:01 PM EDT

Bast - I really don't consider the NW portion of PR- to be the most important. Most of the people I can't beat - regardless of score - I can't beat because their MPR is much higher than mine.

I also don't consider tattoos to be overpowered. Tattoos obviously have their own portion of PR. I strongly suspect that - regardless of strategy - the size of the tattoos at the top is the reason you guys are there. Ranger has the biggest tattoo of any type in the game and yours is not that far behind in size. I'd be more concerned if you, providing that you fought hard, bought ba etc, were not at the top. Then there would be a problem...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 30 2005 2:08 PM EDT

"Equal size being the issue: equal size meaning PR? So a stupidly low 10% MPR with enough money attached to it would be considered "equal" to a character that was at at least 50% MPR?"

Ah Bast, but with the NW to PR link, isn't that the same thing?

Isn't a 10 MPR with enough NW to bring it to 100 PR 'equal' to a 90 MPR with NW to bring it to 100 PR? Isn't that what the link was supposed to do?

Lets define 'effective' to be be 'x amount of BA spent on fighting, increases score by y'. (To get around people just fighting 1 PR character if it's win rates. Or hunting down a fat target to farm if it's xp/cash rewards)

So my question should probably be;

At an equal PR, with the same amount of BA spent on fighting, does any other strategy, including combination of xp or items, increase score by the same amount, or more, than a ToA Tank?

;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 30 2005 2:09 PM EDT

Hehehehehe johnny, I bet if Ranger inked that ToA to a ToBF he'd drop from the top spot like a stone!! ;)

HunterFrei August 30 2005 2:11 PM EDT

DM/FB+FF is pretty strong.

QBsutekh137 August 30 2005 2:58 PM EDT

GL, you are asking what I am (seriously) pleading Sefton for: that he show us once and for all if an equally PRed and NWed mage team can compete with the ToA teams.

I would propose the team thusly:

Wall - Great way to spend NW, and effective against pretty much anything. Up to Sefton to decide whether to go max AC (Mithril Shield) or more mage-buster (MgS). Best part: Gyaxx already has a Wall he can use.

Mage - Probably FB. Gyaxx would suffer great untraining losses to convert to being a mage. That would suck.

Tattoo - FF on the mage. Convert Gyaxx's ToA to an FF.

Throw a DM enchanter in front if you want to, especially if you already have one. Throw a final minion (enchanter) up front as a meat shield/diluter if you wish.

Sefton has said before (when I questioned what a mage team could spend money on) that there were still things to spend cash on: AC, DBs, Corns, CoIs, etc. Plus, spending all that cash on AC makes the NW addition to PR much smaller than investing in weaponry (because of the AC allowance), so better rewards -- if the gamble pays off. If a similarly MPRed and NW mage team could dominate a ToA team, rewards would rock because overall PR would be lower (due to the mage team's NW being primarily in AC).

Folks who think the ToA is overpowered already think they know the outcome to my proposed idea: the mage would get toasted, and high NW could not be as effectively leveraged using a fire familiar.

I am not so sure, as it is very, very difficult to say without seeing it happen. So far, evolution is showing us that the ToA _is_ overpowered, simply because it is what people use, and it is hard to even imagine anything else being competitive.

Special J August 30 2005 3:02 PM EDT

"DM/FB+FF is pretty strong. "


Yes it is, until a certain point in the game. Then it sucks.

QBJohnnywas August 30 2005 3:05 PM EDT

GL, I have this to say: 'INK/MUGS'.

You're right though, the NW/PR link was supposed to make your PR=mpr+NW. However, where the ToA is concerned that is misleading. The ToA adds to your basic stats in a way none of the other tattoos do - so I'd say the equation here is PR = (RMPR +toa) + NW - RMPR being 'real' MPR.

Nothing else adds to your minion in the same way. The rest are effectively equipment.

QBsutekh137 August 30 2005 3:07 PM EDT

Black Card Situation sucks? Seems like a fairly tough team to me...

Quark August 30 2005 3:15 PM EDT

All good points. My original comparison, though, was tank vs tank - not tank vs. mage. Even tank against tank I can't compete with a ToA. I max out my weapon NW on an exbow (3rd biggest), a BTh (or a VB - I have one with the same stats), and an enchanter to deal with mages. Plus a good chunk of NW on my HoE, EB, EG (and sometimes EC & MgS). The PTH is impossible to avoid in the ToA.

Special J August 30 2005 3:16 PM EDT

Do you use the strat Chet?

Didn't think so, and yes at a certain point not having a tank is your weakness.

Chocolate Thunder August 30 2005 3:47 PM EDT

Hmmm. DM+FB/FF works real well actually, even at higher PR. Saying it doesn't is wrong. And yes I did use it... to greater success than most. However it is easily countered, just noone around here chooses to.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] August 30 2005 3:51 PM EDT

Why is it always people getting hit by these actions are the ones who complain? You ToE wearers now are complaining about ToA, where were you when the ToE was overpowered? I honestly think all the tattoos are fine just the way they are right now, ToA and ToE need a little something, since they dont actually produce an extra minion...

QBRanger August 30 2005 3:52 PM EDT

I remember one of the toughest character I faced was Choc Thunder before he changed his strat.

A massive FF, massive AS, massive GA. Unless I used seekers I had tons of problem with that.

Special J August 30 2005 3:52 PM EDT

I do not see the strat listed on your characters of any "great success", I see a CoC mage, which not a FB mage.


I have a DM+FB+FF strat, and am capping out in score.

Chocolate Thunder August 30 2005 4:00 PM EDT

Though one point to add to Chet's points. Toward the end of my FF/DM team. I was beating Mikel about 50% of the time... stalemating another 35% and losing about 15%. This was despite him having pretty much the same strategy (he had two wall/mini-tanks to my one), FAR more NW on his team than I did and the same/slightly higher MPR. NW did almost nothing for the FF/DM team success... it just added unnecessary PR and therefore gave less rewards.

Chocolate Thunder August 30 2005 4:03 PM EDT

Score / PR / MPR: 792,453 / 478,797 / 283,875 . Yeah Wuss, you really seem like you are capping out on score. And that's without using the strategy effectively, you have almost no HPs on either of your FB minions.

Special J August 30 2005 4:06 PM EDT

283k MPR and 800k score is quite effective.

QBsutekh137 August 30 2005 4:42 PM EDT

mrwuss, he was being sarcastic. He is wondering why you said you are capping out when you have such a gorgeous score/PR ratio?

There is a difference between running out of easy (higher) targets and "capping out".

QBsutekh137 August 30 2005 4:45 PM EDT

Also, I am having a tremendously hard time understanding how CT was able to even get _close_ to harming TAB back when he was using an FF? Lowly Cougars could beat him, and that was with crappy offense and tiny net worth. The only difference I can see is the DM and lack of an MgS. You could change those things in a heartbeat (in fact, the MgS alone would probably be more than enough, and only cost you around 10 million to reduce close to 40% magic damage on your Wall.

QBRanger August 30 2005 4:49 PM EDT

yes, it was in the days of DM.

I changed to AMF due to CT and BCS but now am quite vulnerable to GA so its a trade off.

Toons does very well due to the massive AS and GA. He gets my tank down to about 100k HP from 670k.

QBJohnnywas August 30 2005 4:50 PM EDT

Cougars had a large AMF didn't it 'back in the day'. Which probably won it for you at the time. I think at that time TAB had DM trained. DM is particularly vulnerable to FB attacks....

Special J August 30 2005 4:51 PM EDT

Capping out would have been a bad choice of words,

more like leveling off my score.

Until this point going up the ranks was cheese, now I am coming against those who think out the strat they are using, and thus are much harder to beat.

But You will never see a DM+FB+FF team in the top scores, atleast not with out having a much tighter MPR/PR/Score ratio.

QBsutekh137 August 30 2005 5:02 PM EDT

Yes, Cougars had a decent AMF (not the largest), but it was more the ToE/MgS combo that made mages fail.

If TAB put an MgS on his Wall, the wall would lose around 40-45 AC but gain 40% magic damage reduction. That would be HUGE against mages.

Yes, toons is the master of indirect damage. Quite interesting. Right now, toons and BCS appear to be keeping the ToA teams at least having to think a little bit about the AMF/DM/both choice. But like I have said before -- it must be nice to have only one or two niche weaknesses where even those do not result in losing...just getting "close". A win is a win...doesn't matter how close it gets.

Chocolate Thunder August 30 2005 5:11 PM EDT

Chet, i was fairly close to ranger. But he had the luxury of having a strategy that can be tweaked. I had nothing to tweak...

Basically what this all boils down to is:

ToA + Visa >> FF/FB + DM > All else

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] August 30 2005 5:30 PM EDT

Don't forget ToA + camping :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 30 2005 7:07 PM EDT

Vestax, AS+GA is good. In some cases very good. As a main damaging tactic, GA without AS and multiple minions will never be a winner.

But, it's very vulnerable to DM.

What is a ToA tank very vulnerable to? A mage? Maybe. But that's where a MgS wall comes in. AS + GA? quite possibly, but a DM minion could be added.

What minion can an AS + GA team add to make it less vulnerable to DM? All it can do is get bigger. Get bigger than the DM it faces

But a ToA Tank can do that as well. Dish out bigger damage than the GA it faces (to reduce amount returned).

ToA Tank > AS+GA.

:)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 30 2005 7:18 PM EDT

G Max,

"My original comparison, though, was tank vs tank"

A non ToA wearing physical attacker is never going to be competitive with a ToA wearer.

They can be good Walls Mage/Enchanter killers though. But never Tank busters.

For all purposes Tanks = ToA wearers

:(

Quark August 31 2005 9:32 AM EDT

My point exactly, GL. If a RoE wearing tank can't keep up to a ToA tank, the ToA is too strong. I thought the RoE was intended to allow a char to retain the EXP a tatoo would take and keep up with it (or at least keep reasonably close).

WeaponX August 31 2005 9:43 AM EDT

imo the ToA is ok. its the DBs + ToA that hurts things. i think maybe the ToA PTH curve is a tad bit off as well.

Chocolate Thunder August 31 2005 10:22 AM EDT

Something occured to me. Why are DBs so much easier to upgrade than Evasion is to train?

And G Max, my understanding was that tattoos grow like a minion on a 2-3 minion team (I have no idea where that came from or if its true.. but it makes sense). This works out to getting about 40% the XP of the actual team. So a ToA on a single minion should grow about 40% faster than regular single minion, a ToA on a 2 minion team should make the minion grow about 80% faster than a regular double minion, 3 minion ToA would be about 120% faster and 4 minion ToA would be about 200% faster than a regular 4th minion.

Avoid figured out the RoE as: "That means for a 2 minion char, the minion with the rune will gain about 43% more xp than the non- rune minion, for a 3 minion char, the rune minion will gain about 64% more xp than the others, and about 86% on a 4 minion char." He didn't say anything about a single minion, but you can guess that it will turn out less than 40%.

So the long answer to your short concern... no you won't keep up with a ToA tank using a RoE. (This is all assuming my drowsy back of the envelope math is correct.)

Chocolate Thunder August 31 2005 10:24 AM EDT

Erm, that 200% should be about 160%... I'm a spaz.

Xiaz on Hiatus August 31 2005 10:28 AM EDT

"My point exactly, GL. If a RoE wearing tank can't keep up to a ToA tank, the ToA is too strong. I thought the RoE was intended to allow a char to retain the EXP a tattoo would take and keep up with it (or at least keep reasonably close)."

The ToA is a tattoo that is SPECIALIZED for a tank, because it give DX and ST. The RoE is not specialized for a tank, it purely increases or boost the EXP a minion recieves, and it wasn't designed to give a sufficient amount of EXP to train enough ST/DX to match a ToA.
Because if it did, what would be the point of having the ToA?

With that aside, yes I tend to agree that the ToA should only be made to supplement trained DX/ST, not replace it. I don't know about the top end, but if all you need to train is HP on a tank, and the ToA will give you sufficient levels of DX/ST, then it is possibly too "powerful".

Relic August 31 2005 10:43 AM EDT

If anyone thinks that HP are the only thing you need on a viable tank, just take a look at the top players and what they have on those tanks. Solid tanks do require a ToA, but you need big DB's, big Weapons (ranged and melee) and keep in mind you have to train archery, unarmed combat, or bloodlust. Tanks are very expensive to maintain, mages are cheap and just as powerful imo.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 31 2005 4:04 PM EDT

if this was cb1, this thread would be complaining about lochs being overpowered.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 31 2005 4:24 PM EDT

Nah Novice. It would be complaining about ELB s. Def ELB s! ;)

Starseed^Lure September 1 2005 3:05 AM EDT

I'm not sure why anyone would think that the RoE should be as powerful as the ToA... or ToE or any tattoo for that matter.

Just a thought, but not all items are created equal. I think that the debate is about whether the strat revolving around ToAs is overpowered not necessarily if ToAs are overpowered inherently. Though I would argue they are, but for entirely different reasons.

Undertow September 1 2005 4:04 AM EDT

RoE being just as powerful as a ToA? What are you on?

The RoE was made for one reason, and one reason only:

To shut people up about wanting to shift Xp around to different minions, or "bench" them, or divy up rewards differently, or whatever.

An RoE on a single minion character is technotarded. It's for when you have a 4 minion team (or any multiminion) and you want 1 minion's XP ratio VS that of the whole team to increase. That's all.

Undertow September 1 2005 4:12 AM EDT

To back up my point with a small amount of fact:

The ToA's effect on your PR is equal to about 80% of what training expierance would take for the same effect.

In other words, using an RoE instead of a ToA is basically like sticking a V6 in a camero. Your going out of your way to suck.

Your traiding PR gained from having a tattoo for MPR gained from having XP trained. Your PR will be 25% higher training stats vs equiping a ToA.

What Tattoos really are are small bundles of free XP. Sure, I could get a new minion and train him with HP and FB, but for less PR a FF does the same thing. AND he can be a fifth minion.

I honestly have no idea if I'm on topic here, I just read like the last 5 posts.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001Uev">Do we need to deal with ToA's this change month?</a>