Sept 1 changes (in Changelog)

AdminJonathan September 1 2005 10:51 AM EDT

+ BL no longer results in increased dmg taken; max dmg increase lowered to 100% (from 120); still maxes at 1/4 of ST.
+ VB reduces effective AC/protection/endurance by 40% (was 50)
+ ToA grants 40% and 60% of its level in DX and ST (was 60% and 70%)
+ increased ToE effect (primary and aura) by about 15%
+ Rune of Solitude: protection vs DM (also Lesser RoS)
    + (Yes, these are spawnable, inkable items; items Overview will update)
+ 1H melee weapons now have a 50% higher base chance-to-hit than 2H weapons
    + (1H base to-hit went up; 2H base to-hit went down)
    + this affects how easy it is to get double hits from DX as well
+ fixed bug that gave BTh, MH as much dmg as ELS/BNE; now is about 30% less
+ fixed bug that applied ST bonus to AC during ranged rounds (now is only during melee)

Stuff nobody cares about:
+ awl-pike base damage to 17 (was 16)
+ lochaber axe base damage to 50 (was 48)

WeaponX September 1 2005 10:54 AM EDT

ToA is not gonna be very popular now

Relic September 1 2005 10:54 AM EDT

Ouch to tanks. Looks like Mage Blender is back in full force. :)

AngryZac September 1 2005 10:55 AM EDT

TOE got more powerful? That's surprising to me, anyone else?

Nixon Jibfest September 1 2005 10:56 AM EDT

Nice to see the ELS and BNE get a boost in a roundabout way.

LumpBot September 1 2005 10:57 AM EDT

Wow, that's a lot of changes, and most of them are needed too.

Relic September 1 2005 11:01 AM EDT

My melee damage basically dropped by about 60% with this changelog. While FB mages still do the same damage as before and do not have to invest any cb2 into their char to do massive damage. Unbalanced? Maybe...we will see how much fightlist changes.

Chocolate Thunder September 1 2005 11:02 AM EDT

I'm beating some people i wasn't, I'm stalemating some people i was beating (increase fights to 30 rounds!)... I have no idea if I was nerfed or buffed :).

Everything there makes logical sense to me: ToE was nearly useless at higher levels, especially when faced with a VB.. now its just kind of useless. BL now looks attractive to me... it'll compensate for the loss of power and the whiff factor I'm now experiencing. I think I like all of the changes... even the ones that nerfed/fixed my big ol' hammer.

I do wish I didn't sell my BTH for nearly nothing a few weeks back :(.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 1 2005 11:02 AM EDT

so wait the VB was only 10% overpowered, but the ToA was a HUGE problem...

what the hell is a "base chance to hit"?

is that the cost of +?

LumpBot September 1 2005 11:04 AM EDT

Are you going to put up auctions for RoS, or just TA and store?

QBJohn Birk [Black Cheetah Bazaar] September 1 2005 11:04 AM EDT

Ouch, ToA tanks with archery take it in the shorts once again.

BL got a buff the 20% less damage is nothing compared to not taking extra damage

VB need to be reduced

ToA reduction was very harsh, looks like I won't have to train archery again until next change month.

ToE buff now means mages will be more popular than ever at lower levels (and they were already very popular)

Love the 1H melee weapon buff

Love the ELS/BoNE buff

Maybe this ST to AC not applying in ranged will end up helping archery, but I have doubts.

I actually like the lochbar axe buff

Any chance there will be any more love given to archery? I mean right now all I get is 2-3 extra shots for my 1mil + trained experience, and with the BL buff, I mean what is the point?

Chocolate Thunder September 1 2005 11:08 AM EDT

"ToE buff now means mages will be more popular than ever at lower levels (and they were already very popular)" .... are you kidding, the ToE is the mage killer :).

Though, I do agree with sefton with the Archery bit... melee gets boosted 100% by BL, ranged gets boosted 33% with archery. I do think melee skills should give a larger boost as they do come second, but 3 times the amount seems a bit harsh. (Unless there's some other balancing I don't see....)

Chocolate Thunder September 1 2005 11:16 AM EDT

I suck at math this week... boosted 50% not 33%...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 1 2005 11:19 AM EDT

Hehehehe.... With the massive BL change, no wonder Jon commented in my 'Critical Hit' idea thread. ;)

I suppose I should check wither the ToE increase effects the AMF backlash reduction as well, I'll save that for work tomorrow though! ;)

I think the base to hit stuff is the 50% chance at equal dex. It'll be something like 1h get's a base 75% chance to land a hit at equal dex, a 2h 25%. With 1% dex increases improving that margin by 1% and so on.

What's an Awl-pike?


AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 1 2005 11:21 AM EDT

ToE's will still suck at higher levels, they'll just take longer to do so.


Caedmon [Revenge of the Forgers] September 1 2005 11:39 AM EDT

/me finally feels smart for trying a ToE tank a few months ago...

Tezmac September 1 2005 11:46 AM EDT

So we know levels of other tattoos and how they affect gameplay, any insight as to how much the RoS stops DM?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 1 2005 11:54 AM EDT


Quark September 1 2005 11:57 AM EDT

I like the ToA changes - my targets are more in line with my RoE buffed dex. But I still wonder about the ToA's inherent PTH - does that need taken down a notch? There's no comparable skill I can train to increase my PTH, so while it remains a ToA advantage, maybe it's still too high?

Victim September 1 2005 11:59 AM EDT

Actually the loch increase makes it the best low end weapon by an even larger margin.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 1 2005 12:02 PM EDT

G_Max: you villian..after all the complainers get the only decent tank strat nerfed...and your here picking over the corpse...DIE DIE DIE!

onlyyouknow September 1 2005 12:06 PM EDT

Enough on the ToA, its so nerfed already. Think we should add more useful gears instead :p

Starseed^Lure September 1 2005 12:06 PM EDT

This is great. I think that my strat was pretty good before these changes and yet again, I will benefit from almost every change. I think the only one that works against me is the chance to hit on 2h weapons, though it also means that ToA tanks will be less effective against me. And that may end up being more of a benefit.

It may be a good idea for my non-toa tank to make the switch to a BTh. Though using BL I may be better sticking with my Morgul's better damage...

I hope you all have your amf trained up!

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] September 1 2005 12:23 PM EDT

How many times are we gonna go back and forth through ToA and ToE??

Now ToE is more powerful than ToA again... That was a massive uneeded nerf on the ToA IMO...

Dont tell me im just saying this for my own good, just because i have a ToA in my strat, I DONT FIGHT ANYMORE.

Quark September 1 2005 12:23 PM EDT

Point taken, novice. I should be happy with the changes that were made. Which I am.

[T]Vestax September 1 2005 12:35 PM EDT

It's rather clear, ToA uses the big heavy 2-handed weapons and non-ToA should use the lighter swifter weapons... like the VB, which got nerfed a little and buffed a lot.

As for the RoS, there can only be two real ways it can work:

The first is that it guarantees your ED is safe up to a certain fraction of the level of your RoS. So if it was say 50% a 400k RoS would mean that no matter how big the DM you would get 200k levels of you ED's off.

The second is the RoS subtracts directly from DM by a fraction of it's level. So again assuming 50% a of the RoS's level is it's effective level, the opposing team would lose 200k levels of DM from a 400k level RoS. That would be a DM of a DM though.

There is also the possibility that it can work either of the ways above except the reduction or protection isn't flat across the board but is rather a cap. Meaning the RoS would still get less effective when you use multiple ED's by having it's protection split among all of them. Or that the RoS would be less effective against multiple DM's by having it's effect split among all of them.

I am routing for a the first one as a flat level of protection. And yes I was very tempted to have the biggest RoS in the game.

(RoS needs to be added to the spell checker real soon.)

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] September 1 2005 12:38 PM EDT

Is it like the RoE where it doesnt gain levels? Or can the RoS gain levels?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 1 2005 12:40 PM EDT

:) Vestax, it sure looks like the RoS will really benefit your GA based strat! :D

[T]Vestax September 1 2005 1:00 PM EDT

The RoS can gain levels. Just take a look at the highest level tattoos and you'll see Jonathon holding a 11k version of it.

And yes it would help my strat sum. :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 1 2005 1:01 PM EDT

No easy way of getting it! You'll have to go camping! ;)

LumpBot September 1 2005 1:03 PM EDT

No one has inked one yet, so who's gonna be the first to own a RoS?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 1 2005 1:04 PM EDT

>_< Stupid stupid GL... They can be inked... I've even posted that...

[T]Vestax September 1 2005 1:21 PM EDT

Are you saying Jonathon doesn't count. :P

AdminJonathan September 1 2005 1:23 PM EDT

you might even want to add Protection, Vestax :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 1 2005 1:27 PM EDT

At least stick a base one on your first minion!

QBJohnnywas September 1 2005 1:31 PM EDT

I love the scramble on the first day of changemonth! You can almost hear everyone pouring over every detail to work out what's what....

Now if I could go away knowing that this was going to be it for the month then I'd be happy... =)

Be prepared for lots of questions from me on September 19th...

Myonax September 1 2005 1:44 PM EDT

Would be nice if the RoS had an aura that increased that minions ED by 10% (doesn't grow with size).

I think it would make it more attractive. Don't forget to protect your ED you have an increased PR from the RoS that needs to be accounted for.

Special J September 1 2005 1:45 PM EDT

Jonny, go have fun, worry not about this game!

Icewindvz September 1 2005 1:54 PM EDT

Cool change +), Also I feel we need to Reduce the Max Tattoo little more too.

Biscuitback September 1 2005 1:55 PM EDT

i think the max tattoo is fine

QBJohn Birk [Black Cheetah Bazaar] September 1 2005 1:56 PM EDT

To revive a an idea from several posts, now that the ToA has been nerfed considerably, and the ToE has been buffed is there ANY chance of getting the amount of PR the ToA, ToE, and ToBF adds reduced, or is this just another way of saying only idiots do not have a minion based Tattoo?

Quark September 1 2005 1:57 PM EDT

Myonax - it's attrative enough. It's not the DM blocking hat, so it has aura and the wearer can still have a corn. The PR increase is guaranteed ED spells, just like the PR on a ToE is guaranteed protection. Just don't use it if you don't have enough ED spell reliance to justify the guarantee.

LumpBot September 1 2005 2:00 PM EDT

If it's so attractive how come no one has one yet?

Special J September 1 2005 2:02 PM EDT

well I am not dropping my FF for a GA every fight

Chocolate Thunder September 1 2005 2:28 PM EDT

Maybe it would be a good tattoo for a 4 tank set-up?

QBJohnnywas September 1 2005 2:43 PM EDT

The two strats that would benefit most from the RoS are the old CB1 fake tank strat and old school EEMM with a large AS/GA.

Dunno where else it would be useful....

QBJohnnywas September 1 2005 2:46 PM EDT

I guess the element that will benefit most from the RoS is AS. This could make AS attractive again...

YNM September 1 2005 3:14 PM EDT

Thank you very much Jonathan. Good changes i commend you.

maulaxe September 1 2005 3:22 PM EDT

Chocolate thunder:
maybe it would be very good for my my 4 enchanter-tank team, but i'll not be able to afford it for a while.

but even if it would guarantee that a chunk of my EDs cast, currently my FF is a better choice. if someone has a large DM, then there will be no AMF to hinder all my burny-goodness that the familiar will dish out.
...So even though it would seem like the perfect fit, in the end I think that it isn't worth sacrificing that extra damage in those precious, precious ranged rounds - which is why i'm aquiring belegs for everyone.

/me holds out an empty hat to beg for an RoS

Grim Reaper September 1 2005 3:42 PM EDT

You know, you can always just use the tattoo artist.

Myonax September 1 2005 4:13 PM EDT

G-Max - I understand what your getting at, but would have to disagree. Let me break this down on how it would affect me (a very heavy team in ED).

I have the 4th largest AS last time I checked at 400k. Let’s say I converted my Tattoo of Ice to a RoS. My PR is concentrated into 3 things; my tattoo (roughly 1/3), my AS (roughly 1/3) and everything else (AMF/MM and Health/Equipment on minions). With a RoS I would loose 1/3 of my offensive PR to protect 1/3 of my defensive PR. And that is only against the teams the use DM (which isn't wide spread and with the threat of this tattoo is unlikely to become the new rage). Having 2/3rds of my PR dedicated to my AS, which is very worth protecting, doesn't make sense. There are a lot of teams I can beat now that I would be unable to beat without the Tattoo of Ice. I can think of only 3 teams that have big enough DMs to even cause me concern, it’s simply not worth it. You are looking at the benefits of a RoS (which aren't worthless) and not looking at the cost (any of the other tattoos). You can't have both, and right now it’s pretty safe to say just about any of the other mage centric tattoos including endurance and jiggy would be better suited to almost all mage teams then a RoS. This is only a step up from having a ToA on mage team :P

Too sum it up in one sentence: Doubling the effective PR of a current ED to ensure it will cast at full effectiveness is not enough of a benefit to compensate for the PR gain.

Grim Reaper September 1 2005 4:24 PM EDT

I have similar problems too, If I switch to this new tattoo then only one of my minions enchantments would really be protected and the other 3 minions would be hit hard by dm, now if I did have that tattoo it would also mean I would not be able to attack with my coc tattoo which is my offense. Why can't we just get a new offensive spell that targets DM?

Chocolate Thunder September 1 2005 4:43 PM EDT

Before I was kidding... but not so much now. All these changes are defensive buffs (which i love) but Is there any chance of getting fights further extended to 30 rounds? When two defensive teams collide... 42 / 42 / 12,040 happens, and that's not enough to kill anyone. :D

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 1 2005 6:10 PM EDT

I dunno if I'm still the sole player RoS, but I have to say, it's more than little overly specific. And if this is Jon's answer to how messed up DM is...*sigh* well it's not enough.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 [SHIELD] September 1 2005 6:13 PM EDT

I like the RoS, I might consider using it on the new team I am dreaming up ;-)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 1 2005 6:27 PM EDT

Novice, you're still the sole player owner of a RoS. In it's current incarnation, I don't think it'll get much use.

It's the UC of tattoos!


Admin{CB1}Slayer333 [SHIELD] September 1 2005 6:30 PM EDT

bah, UC of tattoos....

more like the Tulwar of tattoos! :)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 1 2005 6:32 PM EDT

it's the DCM, at least UC is useful against more than five people.

Why would anyone want to devote 40% of xp (proper tat lvl) to negating ONE single
enchantment? Maybe if (as Ranger suggested) it effected all minions to the same level, or just did something other than suck.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 1 2005 6:32 PM EDT

Did someone mention Tulwars?


I thought I turned that off....

QBJohnnywas September 1 2005 6:34 PM EDT


AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 1 2005 6:36 PM EDT


Johnny, get out of here and go prepare your speech!!!


tscm September 1 2005 7:17 PM EDT

sweet changes, I like it johnny boy!! X D

Xiaz on Hiatus September 1 2005 8:01 PM EDT

The Lochaber Axe is making a comeback!

Go the Lochs!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 1 2005 8:53 PM EDT

the RoE would have made a great MgS like helm or cloak, it's a lousy tat.

Mikel [Bring it] September 1 2005 9:38 PM EDT

Looks like BL > Archery now, and of course I noticed the change to the ToA as soon as I logged in today, cause my archery that I had been working on suddenly was 1.0. Other than that nothing else changed other than people hitting me after this announcement to see if they could beat me now... ;)

Going to do anything to Archery 1.0, otherwise, most everyone will switch to BL.

J Carp September 1 2005 9:39 PM EDT

i liked everything...except the ToA change...which is good in some ways and not in other ways...

AdminShade September 2 2005 4:52 AM EDT

Sweet! I want one of those Lochaber Axes now!!! :P

nice set of changes, kind of like i thought it would be (except for the 1 hand and 2 hand to hit changes)

Doc [girl power] September 2 2005 8:44 AM EDT

I lose to everyone on my fight list now.



miteke [Superheros] September 2 2005 9:33 AM EDT

I'd like to see the rune actually ENHANCE defensive enchantments rather than just negate DM. Perhaps something like:

adds +x levels to y enchantment up to 50% of the base level.

For example a RoS could add 300 levels/tattoo level to each type of Defensive Enchantment other than protection.

a level 500 RoS would add 150000 to AS, GA, and VA.

Protection would need some special formula.

Or it could give a 25% boost to all DE up to the level of the RoS*x in points.

That way it does not depend on the other guy having a big DM, which very few folks do.

With the right equations that rune would be quite competitive.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 2 2005 10:15 AM EDT

It would be far too powerful like that. Stick one of those on an AS minion on a 4 minion team, and everyone has mega hit points.

That would force people to use DM, which would force others to use RoS s in a never ending vicious circle.

miteke [Superheros] September 2 2005 10:48 AM EDT

How can you say it would be too powerful?

If it added .0000001% it would be under powered, if it added 1000000% it would be too powerful, but somewhere in between it would be just right!

[T]Vestax September 2 2005 11:46 AM EDT

The problem with a flat add is that everyone would have at least a base enchantment on every minion. It's like free candy but maybe even better, like free dinner! Besides the additional power you are talking about far exceeds what four Corns could ever accomplish, it just doesn't fit into the balance of the game.

And yes GL is correct, the objective is to make people hesitate on whether to use DM or something else, not to make it a brainless choice for people who want to win.

miteke [Superheros] September 2 2005 2:05 PM EDT

I don't particularly like my idea either, but not because it is overpowered. I don't like it because it does what the corns already do in a slightly different way. Not very interesting.

But there is still the problem that just neutralizing a DM is not a very good ability, compared to what the other tattoos give you (with the exception of the Balrog Flame tattoo)

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 [SHIELD] September 2 2005 9:19 PM EDT

"The problem with a flat add is that everyone would have at least a base enchantment on every minion. It's like free candy but maybe even better, like free dinner!"

Right...and the ToA does...? ;-P

Good thing they got nerfed though ;-)

CoolWater September 2 2005 9:39 PM EDT

Why is this the only page that I have to scroll to the right to read everything? All other thread including previous changelog, the words wrap around.

Sukotto [lookingglas] September 2 2005 10:37 PM EDT

This thread is so wide because Jon posted using <blockquote> which doesn't wrap the way normal html text does.

I'm really curious why Jon changed awl-pike and loch. Perhaps hinting at changes to come that will make those weapons more desirable?

[SoV] Shiv [/me Forge Stuff :D] September 3 2005 5:51 AM EDT

i gather the VB benefits from this change as well??

**1H melee weapons now have a 50% higher base chance-to-hit than 2H weapons**

which is very cool >:D

cool tweaks

Undertow September 3 2005 5:53 AM EDT


And you FF does what? I mean not just adding stats, but a whole new minion slot.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] September 3 2005 10:57 AM EDT

Ok, so lets give FF's 50% effectiveness of what they do now. (inbetween 40% and 60%) and see how long they are used by the FF+DM chars.

Or make FF a non-minion stat booster tattoo that gives a boost to FB and maybe HP (60% - FB, 40% - HP) and see how well like they are after not granting an extra minion...

Grim Reaper September 3 2005 5:56 PM EDT

we should get more offensive enchantments.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 3 2005 7:39 PM EDT

Smallpaul. I wouldn't use a Fire F with a large FB mage due to the way they spread their target damage before death.

Now if the Fire F was changed to boost my FB, woah!! I'd slap that on and never take it off!

Imagine BCS with instead of a 1 mil FB a 1.5 Mil one....

QBsutekh137 September 3 2005 9:41 PM EDT

I think it is pretty clear how Jon decided to split up tattoos into minion-based ones and non-minion-based. Not saying it was a part of some grand design, but I kind of have a feeling Jonathan sorta understands the mechanics of Carnage Blender. :P

Tattoos that provide an actual minion can do damage on their own: the DD familiars and the ToJ. Now, the ToJ has ended up becoming more defensive because of its endurance and higher HP training, but it can still dole out some damage too.

Runes provide no offense whatsoever. ToE is purely defensive. And the ToA, while enabling nice tank offense, generates no actual offense in and of itself.

This makes great sense. When a tattoo can dole out pain, it should have to succumb to the perils of doing so: backfires, GA, friendly FB backlash. In a way, that is an advantage of a ToE and ToA -- they can never really die until their minion dies.

Trust me, Jonathan has thought about this, and I would bet that it all works into the GUTCB (Grand Unified Theory of Carnage Blender).

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 [SHIELD] September 3 2005 9:43 PM EDT

GUTCB...gonna have to write that down somewhere ;-)

Sukotto [lookingglas] September 3 2005 10:11 PM EDT

"Jonathan sorta understands the mechanics of Carnage Blender"

Yeah, but he cheated. He read the source code.

Xiaz on Hiatus September 3 2005 10:14 PM EDT

Actually, he wrote the source code :P

QBsutekh137 September 4 2005 12:36 AM EDT

My theory is that he found the source code on a buried scroll, saw it was written in PHP and said, "What is this crap?" He then proceeded to make it world-class and build the game(s) we currently play.

Grim Reaper September 4 2005 3:55 AM EDT

So what's next for changes.

Undertow September 4 2005 4:01 AM EDT

Pickles will now taste like chicken.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 4 2005 4:25 AM EDT

I'm hoping Skill Evasion goes back to stacking with Item Evasion...

Quark September 4 2005 11:49 AM EDT

Good idea GL - good way to counter the PTH on the ToA without changing the ToA. And forces a BL / Evasion choice.

flamewind September 4 2005 11:58 AM EDT

While you're talking about making new tattoos, how about a tattoo that casts defensive enchantments that can't be DM'd, but with only 20HP..

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 4 2005 2:07 PM EDT

The HP doesn't matter. once a ED is cast, the casting minion can die and the ED remains...

Sukotto [lookingglas] September 4 2005 10:49 PM EDT

Wouldn't it be interesting if that was no longer true....

[FireBreathing]Chicken September 7 2005 8:22 PM EDT

Its about time you did something about those awl-pikes. I was getting worried people would stop using them and just use maces instead.
But with this recent boost in power, awl-pike wielders everywhere have a good chance against those monstrous mace wielders.

Totally balanced out the game. Thank you sooo much Jon. ;)
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001Uug&all_p=1">Sept 1 changes</a>