VB overpowered or maybe a bug? (in General)


QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] September 1 2005 11:13 PM EDT

Hopefully we have seen the END of the ToA overpowered posts. Not that the top end will suddenly switch because it is still the ONLY tattoo that leverages NW no matter what Jon does to it. But regardless check this out:

The stats:
Gyaxx
ST: 482,770 DX: 440,757
The Soul Thief [73x90] (+95) worth $23,347,674

Earth Elemental ST: 23 DX: 15 AC: 293

The Opponent

Charlie
ST: 215,075 DX: 267,024 AC: 155
Havok [75x66] (+44) worth $6,677,551

Gyaxx hacked Charlie with The Soul Thief [35656]
Gyaxx gashed Charlie with The Soul Thief [27930]
Gyaxx dislimbed Charlie with The Soul Thief [32095]

Charlie gashed Earth Elemental with Havok [23783]
Charlie's Havok went snicker-snack! [27460]

So Gyaxx hits AC 155 (155 X .21 = 32.55% Damage reduction)with 23mil NW BTh and 482K ST (267K more ST) and averages 31,893 damage

Charlie hits AC 293 (293 X .21 = 61.53% reduction normally 175.8AC after 40% reduction from VB power 175.8 X .21 = 36.9% reduction) with a 6mil nw VB and 215K ST (215K more ST) and averages 25,621 damage

So with more comparable ST more AC after reduction and a paltry 17mil more NW the BTh averages 6K more damage. That seems like money well spent.

Need more? It gets WORSE not better maybe its a bug, heck I don't know, check this out.

Gera HP: 215,874 ST: 187,065 DX: 158,744 AC: 69

Gera uses a named VB called widow maker that is so small I cannot tell you its net worth but it is the 22nd most powerful VB in the game (Havok at 6mil is the 2nd most powerful)

Gyaxx glanced off of Gera with The Soul Thief [23130]
Gyaxx scratched Gera with The Soul Thief [19291]
Gyaxx glanced off of Gera with The Soul Thief [22911]

Against AC of 69 (69 x .21 = 14.49% reduction) with 267K more ST and who knows how much more NW averages 21,777 damage

Gera gashed Stone Elemental with The Widow Maker [39328]

HUH????? How is it possible that the VB does more damage to the same AC with less NW and the same 215K more ST?

Maybe I am missing something, but this just seems very wrong to me. I would be happy to email/chatmail the actual fight data to the more mathmatically inclined, but come on, please tell me this is a bug. It almost seems like some inverse is created, as I do more damage on average to more AC on Charlie than I do to the almost 100AC less Gera. AND the less NW VB seems to do MORE damage to the same AC on my wall.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] September 1 2005 11:18 PM EDT

Sorry data amendment

Gera HP: 215,874 ST: 187,065 DX: 158,744 AC: 69

Gera has LESS ST that the 215K I quoted above

Khardin September 1 2005 11:26 PM EDT

215k more strength.. er.. well.. that seems like a lot more strength..
but the post wasn't all that easy to follow..
like this part:
482K ST (267K more ST)

more than what?

im confused, but that's not unusual.

Khardin September 1 2005 11:28 PM EDT

well, i guess that answers that part then. heh.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] September 1 2005 11:39 PM EDT

More data as pointed out by Warchild, Gera has BL Charlie does not, so that accounts for how Gera does more damage to the wall than Charile but not how I do less damage to Gera than Charlie.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] September 1 2005 11:43 PM EDT

And Warchild points out ANOTHER factor I forgot to factor in, which is EC, however:

Upir cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (22041) (thats Gera's team

Margaret cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (141063) (thats Charlie's team)

So I should do less damage to Charlie's team not more

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] September 1 2005 11:55 PM EDT

OK forgiving my poorly worded poorly formatted poorly data collected post, this is what I think.

1) the VB is way over powered NW to NW comparison
2) that BL is somehow reducing the amount of damage a person takes

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 2 2005 1:48 AM EDT

VB's got buffed a lot with the changes. First, they are 1 handed so their base chance to hit has been increased. Secondly, with the increase to ToE s, VB s were buffed indirectly by being the only things to cut through Endurance.

OK, they had their defense cutting abilities slightly reduced, but they are the only thing in the game (bar decay) which can do this.

The numbers posted above may be because of problems with the changes to VB s and BL, but even if there are no bugs this just shows how good a weapon a VB is. All other weapons below it are obsolete. And which the higer AC values people are getting and facing now, for the one handed weapons above it, does a little more damage (that can be mitigated) or a 20% VA (which can be gained for an ED - if you're worried about DM, stick it on an enchanter and give them a RoS) really make an ELS or BTh more attractive than a VB?


;)

[EG] Almuric September 2 2005 9:17 AM EDT

Ahh Havok. What a great sword that was. The problem is, Sefton, I gave that sword some extra Mojo. That's why it's so baaaad.

;}

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] September 2 2005 9:22 AM EDT

Yah I wish I could articulate it properly. I see the pattern when I fight, and something just seems very off with the damage of the BTh, the damage of the VB, and the damage taken by a Bloodlusted minion. If anyone is more able to test this and show me everything is OK that would be great! Or even show me something is broken because it sure seems broken.

QBsutekh137 September 2 2005 9:45 AM EDT

I'm not going to say there isn't something amiss, but with the Bth losing 30% of damage (or something like that, according to Changelog), are you are it isn't just that your Bth has lost a step instead of the VB seeming too strong? I agree that with that NW differential the damge seems a bit off, but Bth damage _was_ decreased...

Chocolate Thunder September 2 2005 10:03 AM EDT

I did notice my Morg was decreased damage yesterday, more than the 30% less that was reported, but today... all seems about right again. If there was a little glitch with the Morg/BTh.. it may be fixed now.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 2 2005 10:08 AM EDT

>_< I missed the original problem.

1) Versus 155 AC Sef s weapon did an average of ~32K damage.

2) Versus 69 AC Sef s BTh did an average of ~22K Damage.

Why did Sef do more damage to a much higher AC?



QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] September 2 2005 10:15 AM EDT

Right I think its because somehow the BL minion is actually having the damage he takes reduced, I realize it is not supposed to take more damage anymore, but I think some how its counting as "ST" in melee and actually reducing the damage.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 2 2005 10:21 AM EDT

:)

I've just trained a base BL (reaches 1.00 with my base Str) to see if it has any noticable increase on my survivability.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 2 2005 10:39 AM EDT

Well I can easily beat one person I was drawing with. but not sure how subjective that is... later on, when my BA has refreshed, I'll untrain BL and fight for while and try to record some results..

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 2 2005 10:43 AM EDT

One fight without later, no noticable difference. Maybe it's counting str more, and I've only got base str, but I didn't think Str made that much impact with damage reduction.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] September 2 2005 10:57 AM EDT

Well I guess it could also have to do with Jon changing such that ST did not count in ranged for damage reduction, in combo with the BL change and the damage reduction on the BTh, but still it is on all my fights going counter to intutition, that I do less damage to someone with less AC and with a larger ST gap.

Still think the VB NW to NW wise is way overpowered though, I mean if I dumped 23 mil into one, would it rule? Considering what a 6mil NW one can do I would say yes it would.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2005 12:26 PM EDT

I laughed when I saw Jon's "fix" for the VB....

make it a two handed, base 70 weapon, and whammo you have a
proper supporter item...this thing is ridiculous.

Warchild September 2 2005 2:15 PM EDT

Ok one other thing that I pointed out that Sefton "forgot" ;P to mention was that there is a huge difference in the PTH on the two weapons. Specifically the BTH in question has 51 more points of PTH then the VB in question...how much of the NW difference is due to that (and thus has nothing to do with the damage output comparison)

Now that being said, I still can not figure out why Sefton does less damage to the minion with less AC. The only thing i can think of is if there is a ToE or protection involved in the team with the lower AC minion that is accounting for the extra damage reduction.

I would really like to have links to (or at least the team names of) the two teams that he is testing against so I can look into it more closely.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2005 2:22 PM EDT

War, if it hadn't changed, the + of a weapon adding to NW ups the damage by adding NW, which is somehow (or was anyway) factored in to damage.

Warchild September 2 2005 2:28 PM EDT

I remember people talking about that but I never saw any proof that adding NW to PTH increased damage (other than causing more hits.) And even if it does (or did) I am sure that the increase was very slight or people WOULD be using things like Tulwars, whose NW increase per point becomes dramatic at a certain point.

AdminJonathan September 2 2005 3:04 PM EDT

increasing + never increased damage

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] September 2 2005 3:36 PM EDT

So I take from this response Jon, that there is nothing really wrong here and I am just not factoring all the variables?

I will say the VB is STILL way over powered NW to NW wise considering that a 6mil NW VB can almost match a 23 mil BTh regardless of the additional + comparison. Should I just sell the thing and dump all my NW into a VB, or is there perhaps another tweak due here shortly on either weapon?

Grim Reaper September 2 2005 3:54 PM EDT

Looks like we need another weapon to do battle against the VB.

AdminJonathan September 2 2005 3:55 PM EDT

it's hard to say if there's something wrong... your data seems to have been collected as haphazardly as it is presented

I'm not ruling out a bug but I'd have to see better data to be convinced of it

QBRanger September 2 2005 4:08 PM EDT

Here is some more data:

I have a 235 AC heavy tank.

Vs Bast and her 6.7 million NW VB which has the stats of Havok [75x66] (+44) in melee she did:
8 / 8 / 20,121

Vs Gyaxx and his 23 million NW Both with the stats of The Soul Thief [73x91] (+95) in melee he did:
11 / 13 / 33,848.
The 2 misses were from his wall on my wall-Earth Elemental mistimed his attack at War.

Both use archery.

QBRanger September 2 2005 4:13 PM EDT

Sorry,

In Bast's stats I accidently included her familiar.

I recalculated it to be:

6 /6 /23606

Grim Reaper September 2 2005 4:25 PM EDT

I see the problem now:

To see the true dmg without any AC

VB does:
28k
Soul Thief does:
66k

So I can't really see any problems except that the soul thief cuts its dmg in half against heavy armor and vb cuts armor dmg reduction by 40% but it still has dmg reduction of 29%

Grim Reaper September 2 2005 4:27 PM EDT

Ok change the VB dmg to 32400 instead of the 28k with the new update ranger added.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] September 2 2005 4:45 PM EDT

Yah a screwed the whole thing up. I did want to show that the VB was overpowered, but in reality, I think there is something actually wrong with the fights. So, HOPEFULLY this will help. What you will see is a long list of both the fights with mostly only data relevant to my point, then I will pull that data out at the end. And thank you Jon, at least knowing that the effort to reorganize my thoughts and data could be used to show a problem made it worth while for me to try again.

Charlie HP: 241,526 ST: 215,075 DX: 267,024 AC: 155
Archery
Havok [75x66] (+44) worth $6,677,551

Gyaxx Bartlett
Ranged Hits / Shots / Avg Damage 10 / 10 / 121,673 6 / 6 / 15,812
Melee Hits / Blows / Avg Damage 22 / 31 / 19,148 36 / 36 / 15,734

Post-battle stats
Minion EXP HP ST DX AC DI
Stone Elemental 428 -36,726 -141,297 -141,302 170 0 / 64,103
Earth Elemental 432 35,235 -141,296 -141,304 293 0 / 138,624
Magic Eater 428 3,057 -141,299 -141,302 105 0 783
Gyaxx 439 435,165 344,870 302,236 41 1,638,000

Earth Elemental cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (884)
Magic Eater cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (319,411)
Stone Elemental cast Protection on all friendly Minions (4)
Magic Eater cast Guardian Angel on all friendly Minions (?)

Leo cast Antimagic Field on Stone Elemental (1.00)
Leo cast Antimagic Field on Magic Eater (1.00)
Leo's Vampiric Aura fizzles under Dispel Magic
Margaret cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (141319)
Margaret's Guardian Angel fizzles under Dispel Magic

Gyaxx chopped Charlie with The Soul Thief [39118]
Gyaxx clove Charlie with The Soul Thief [35957]

Charlie clove Earth Elemental with Havok [25711]
Charlie gashed Earth Elemental with Havok [16806]

Gyaxx eviscerated Charlie with The Soul Thief [27107]
Gyaxx decapitated Charlie with The Soul Thief [40957]
Gyaxx decapitated Charlie with The Soul Thief [28093]

Charlie gashed Earth Elemental with Havok [16441]
Charlie carved into Earth Elemental with Havok [17643]


Gera HP: 215,874 ST: 187,065 DX: 158,744 AC: 138
Bloodlust
Widowmaker (small NW VB)


Gyaxx The Lega
Ranged Hits / Shots / Avg Damage 8 / 8 / 86,136 0 / 0 / 0
Melee Hits / Blows / Avg Damage 14 / 16 / 16,563 7 / 7 / 30,276

Post-battle stats
Minion EXP HP ST DX AC DI Ammo
Stone Elemental -16,025 -22,019 -22,024 170 0 / 11,649
Earth Elemental 409,370 -22,018 -22,026 293 0 / 6,153
Magic Eater 1,573 -22,021 -22,024 105 0 / 2,435
Gyaxx 394,996 464,148 421,514 41 920,984 / 2,363


Earth Elemental cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (884)
Magic Eater cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (319,411)
Stone Elemental cast Protection on all friendly Minions (4)
Magic Eater cast Guardian Angel on all friendly Minions (?)

Upir cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (22041)
Upir cast Ablative Shield on all friendly Minions (15659)
Lekunhawk cast Antimagic Field on Stone Elemental (1.00)
Lekunhawk cast Antimagic Field on Magic Eater (1.00)
Lekunhawk's Vampiric Aura fizzles under Dispel Magic
Lorni's Guardian Angel fizzles under Dispel Magic

Melee Combat
Gyaxx scratched Gera with The Soul Thief [17969]
Gyaxx scratched Gera with The Soul Thief [10579]
Gyaxx glanced off of Gera with The Soul Thief [22004]

Gera sliced into Stone Elemental with The Widow Maker [29491]
Gera sliced into Stone Elemental with The Widow Maker [32873]

Gyaxx glanced off of Gera with The Soul Thief [16553]
Gyaxx scratched Gera with The Soul Thief [18159]
Gyaxx rent Gera with The Soul Thief [30862]

Gera clove Stone Elemental with The Widow Maker [37977]
Gera gashed Stone Elemental with The Widow Maker [30593]

Gyaxx glanced off of Gera with The Soul Thief [11130]
Gyaxx chopped Gera with The Soul Thief [18720]
Gyaxx carved into Gera with The Soul Thief [18173]

Gera's The Widow Maker went snicker-snack! [29641]

Gyaxx rived Gera with The Soul Thief [31318]
Gyaxx carved into Gera with The Soul Thief [23946]
Gyaxx decapitated Gera with The Soul Thief [12478]

Gera scratched Earth Elemental with The Widow Maker [30403]
Gera scratched Earth Elemental with The Widow Maker [20954]

OK I tried to pull out all the irrelavent data, but giving a complete picture of the fight at the same time. In a nut shell however, here is the data I don't seem to understand. Why do I do a lot more damage to Charlie than Gera?

Gyaxx chopped Charlie with The Soul Thief [39118]
Gyaxx clove Charlie with The Soul Thief [35957]
Gyaxx eviscerated Charlie with The Soul Thief [27107]
Gyaxx decapitated Charlie with The Soul Thief [40957]
Gyaxx decapitated Charlie with The Soul Thief [28093]


Gyaxx scratched Gera with The Soul Thief [17969]
Gyaxx scratched Gera with The Soul Thief [10579]
Gyaxx glanced off of Gera with The Soul Thief [22004]
Gyaxx glanced off of Gera with The Soul Thief [11130]
Gyaxx chopped Gera with The Soul Thief [18720]
Gyaxx carved into Gera with The Soul Thief [18173]
Gyaxx rived Gera with The Soul Thief [31318]
Gyaxx carved into Gera with The Soul Thief [23946]
Gyaxx decapitated Gera with The Soul Thief [12478]

QBRanger September 2 2005 4:47 PM EDT

One last thing,

Bartlett tank has 215k str, while Gyaxx has 486k which should mean that Gyaxx does about 2x more damage just from str alone.

QBRanger September 2 2005 4:49 PM EDT

The Lega uses a TOE. Its aura protects a lot considering the relatively low damages your doing.

QBRanger September 2 2005 4:52 PM EDT

BTW its a 610k TOE, so even at 5% aura of its level thats 30k of damage reduction.

Which will matter quite a lot vs the damage Gyaxx is currently doing.

Grim Reaper September 2 2005 4:54 PM EDT

Lega has a toe which has 1/3 power of dmg reduction on the tank. If his toe is 609k then that means 20k is subtracted from ur dmg if you do the math where 609k x 11% to be safe then devide the number by 3 and you get the dmg reduction cap. Now since you done more dmg than that cap, the cap is subtracted from your dmg and you are left with low dmg.

at 11% the cap is 66990 devide that by 3 and u get a cap of 22330. Subtract that from ur regular dmg vs similar AC such as against bast and you are left with the dmg you can deal against Lega.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] September 2 2005 4:58 PM EDT

Ahh there you go, that answers my question, thank you :)

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] September 2 2005 5:00 PM EDT

See Gera is not wearing the ToE though....that's what threw me and still does.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] September 2 2005 5:03 PM EDT

Wow at least that explains it Ranger, but man thats some serious damage reduction from the aura. Sorry to clutter the forum post up so much, for such a simple answer, but man, do we need to start a ToE overpowered thread?

Grim Reaper September 2 2005 5:03 PM EDT

check the bottom minion.

Grim Reaper September 2 2005 5:07 PM EDT

toe is not overpowered, I think the problem is that you do very little dmg. 10% more or so of the toe level is the dmg reduction cap, any dmg dealt against toe wearer is reduced by that cap but if the dmg is lower than the cap it is reduced by 75%. If it is aura then the cap is 1/3 but 75% still applies.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 2 2005 5:19 PM EDT

A combination of the lowering of ToA Strength, BTh damage bug and an increase in the reduction a ToE provides.

:)

Of course, if you use a VB, increases to ToE s don't really make too much of a difference.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] September 2 2005 5:25 PM EDT

Well tormentor perhaps that is the problem then, even after Gera's team EC reduces my ST a little, I have The Soul Thief [73x91] (+95) worth $23,857,689 and 464,148 ST and I do "very little" damage. Its tough to tell with the ToA's and such, but even after a small reduction from his like 25k EC that 464,148 is probably top 10 ST score (OK say even top 20) and that BTh is a top 10 weapon of any sort. How does that combo result is very little damage?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 2 2005 5:32 PM EDT

Because you get the opportunity to hit multiple times a round.

Grim Reaper September 2 2005 5:42 PM EDT

Here is some math for you using the dmg you dealt vs Bast I did math to come up with why you do little dmg against Gera:

Gyaxx chopped Charlie with The Soul Thief [39118] -20k=18k
Gyaxx clove Charlie with The Soul Thief [35957]-20k=16k
Gyaxx eviscerated Charlie with The Soul Thief [27107]-20k=7k
Gyaxx decapitated Charlie with The Soul Thief [40957]-20k=21k
Gyaxx decapitated Charlie with The Soul Thief [28093]-20k=8k

That stuff up there is around 14k avg dmg but I think the 7k and 8k since you do pretty much the dmg of the other ones I calculated which is what u done below to gera:
Gyaxx scratched Gera with The Soul Thief [17969]
Gyaxx scratched Gera with The Soul Thief [10579]
Gyaxx glanced off of Gera with The Soul Thief [22004]
Gyaxx glanced off of Gera with The Soul Thief [11130]
Gyaxx chopped Gera with The Soul Thief [18720]
Gyaxx carved into Gera with The Soul Thief [18173]
Gyaxx rived Gera with The Soul Thief [31318]
Gyaxx carved into Gera with The Soul Thief [23946]
Gyaxx decapitated Gera with The Soul Thief [12478]

It seems to be pretty close right?

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] September 2 2005 5:43 PM EDT

yah well I spent a lot of money to make it +95 so I would have that opportunity anyway, perhaps there should be an increased chance of getting a 5th hit a round with the 1 handed to hit bonus, because seems to me its a waste to add a lot of plus to a 1 handed weapon then :)

Grim Reaper September 2 2005 5:48 PM EDT

I just can't see how tanks can be better than mages, actually right now only thing I see that is great is a familiar, the minions are just there for support. With the dmg I calculated my coc tattoo does, it does dmg at the level of the tattoo, so if I had rangers tattoo which is 950k, that would be around 950k dmg :) Now that is what I call overpowering since tattoos are stronger than minion dd counterpart.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 2 2005 6:25 PM EDT

I like the idea of allowing a third dex based hit for 1 handed weapons. :)

Grim Reaper September 2 2005 6:46 PM EDT

How about a weapon that just writes Z with big dmg lol. That should solve 3 strikes since you have to do 3 strikes to write a Z right?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 2 2005 7:10 PM EDT

Tormentor, CoC does nearly it's level as average damage (maybe around 90%). So if you trained CoC on a minion to 950K, you'ld do nearly 950K to a single un-armoured, no AMF character.

Special J September 2 2005 7:20 PM EDT

GL is correct,

However CoC does not work in ranged where the FB and FF do. Thus FB does less damage but can be used from the start of the fight.

Grim Reaper September 2 2005 9:45 PM EDT

I think you guys are responding to my coc but are posting in wrong thread :)

But my point stands, if you go by the minion level and train up dd and then look at what ur max tattoo can be or go and start a new character and get a new tatoo at level 20, train minion dd and level the tatoo, the tattoo ends up doing 10times bigger dmg.
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