How to start over without the NUB (in General)

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] October 17 2005 7:20 PM EDT

So you want to start again, and you do not have access to the NUB. Sure you can do what everyone does, start a single mage or mage based team, stick a fat tat on them, and poof new beginning. Heck, I started that way. As a matter of fact, I started that way and realized my tattoo which at the time was well over my max tattoo level was outpacing the damage of my mage by such a degree, I tanked the mage and made a team that does nothing other than support the Fire Familiar. Check out my team Djinni. The tattoo is no longer pushing the max (its about 60K off) but the overall results are fairly decent.

Djinni Score 555,597 PR / MPR: 220,959 / 146,173 Max tattoo: 230,270
A Fire Familiar lvl 162,470

A wall and two support enchanters.

BORING!!!! with a capital B. The only thing you can do is hope for a bigger tat. May not be the same on a single mage or a mage based (vs. a familiar based team), but MAN does it drag. There is nothing to do, nothing to tweak. Sure you can bump the armor on the wall or look for enchanter gear, but the PR to NW link makes upgrading armor after a certain level impractical if not harmful to your character. All you do is train the same things over and over rinse and repeat. Then of course there is the wall you hit. Without NW to spend, you cannot increase your effectiveness much compared to your NUB based opponents, so you hit a wall, that only another minion can break you through, but pretty soon you run out of those as well. Anyway, while successful, its boring.

So, enter idea #2. It stems from the idea of maximizing your rewards. How do you max rewards? By fighting opponents with a score as high as possible compared to your PR. But you say, NW is linked to PR, so how can you do that? Two words, Unarmed Combat.

Now pick yourself off the floor from laughter and hear me out. I will not pretend that UC can do anything at high levels, but its just a skill easily unlearned, and you do not even need to make a ratio of it. You are making a single tank, but you are finding a loophole if you will in the system. The loophole is this. With the NW to PR link and the weapon allowance given by your MPR, the UC "weapon" counts and nothing in that link. That is, whatever your UC score is, your weapon is base unknown (I have a SNEAKING suspicion its linked to ST, but I digress) xUC SCORE +UC SCORE, so if your UC is 20 its unknown X20 +20 weapon. But you say, lvl 20 UC takes a lot of exp! No it doesn't, again, at the high levels this wont work, but at low levels, a base combat gi (had for a song price wise) adds no PR and adds +10 UC. Add in some cheap HG's and next thing you know, you have 20+ UC score. Unarmed Combat: 41,403/2,300 (22) (A Combat Gi [1] (+9) 60,162 and A Pair of Helm's Gauntlets [4] (+6) 46,132). Thats right NO tattoo :) A tattoo at your max tat level adds significantly to your PR. A base combat gi does not :) So basically, thats a free +10 x10 weapon. Which means you can really pump your ranged weapon :) You can add your entire NW allowance for weapons to your ranged weapon. OK, I think you are getting the idea, and if you read this long you deserve to :) Basically you can keep your PR to MPR ratio very low and yet have a fairly powerful weapon at the lower levels. Also you can tweak ST or DX or HP based upon your opponents. Do you need to do more damage, hit more often, survive longer, add to them as needed. It is a lot more fun, and it works. It works because you can fight ppl well above your PR, while your MPR and PR are close. Again, this will probably die out pretty soon now, but getting started it works well. At some point UC will not be able to keep up with your opponents weapons. But at the lower levels, you can generate some fairly decent exp in a short amount of time. So OK here it is take a look.

Silent Monk PR / MPR: 11,981 / 10,542 Max tattoo: 11,520

Monk EXP: 5,012 HP: 7,000/7,000 ST: 3,520/3,200 DX: 4,500 AC: 30
Unarmed Combat: 41,403/2,300 (22) Antimagic Field: 2,288/2,600 (?)

A Combat Gi [1] (+9) 60,162
A Pair of Helm's Gauntlets [4] (+6) 46,132
A Helm of Ecthelion [6] (+4) 17,006
1,412 Bolts [10x3] (+4) 6,419
An Enforcer's Crossbow [4x10] (+15) 195,008

At some point you add a tattoo and begin the ToA tank route, but for starting out, it works pretty well, there are lots of things tweak, and you get good rewards.

I will mention I am going to go a step further and try to make a run at using the two most unpopular things in all of CB (hey I wont me #1 so got to try something) I am going to go for an exbow and a ToBF. Hear me out, you want them to hit you often with a ToBF but you do not want them to hurt you much, heck no damage still hurts them. So you use an exbow to knock their ST down, and then say hit me :) Anyway, that's enough from me. Comments, suggestions, insights, and flames are welcome :)

QBRanger October 17 2005 7:25 PM EDT

You had your chance, but blew it.

There is really no way to compete with NUB players.

Just look at Kitty, 730k MPR in just over 2 months. Since we all know the purpose of this game is to be number 1 (as evident by the NUB), you are lost. Just let the NUB players take over as they already are. Pretty soon you may be the only old timer left :(

Just my 2 cents.

Synco October 17 2005 7:30 PM EDT

Seft, slap on an RoE, and you'd be all set.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] October 17 2005 7:35 PM EDT

I tried the RoE I did, and with the weapon you need to overcome the lack of the +10 to UC score combat gi it was about a wash. Again, at a higher level Im sure the RoE bonus compared to the NW needed to make up for the lack of the +10 from the Gi, that wont be true, but low levels, its works just as well as an RoE :)

Heavy October 17 2005 7:36 PM EDT

There will be few more old timers left but they aren't aiming for nr1.

Sefton: It looks like a pretty nice strategy. Keep refining it :D
You never know when the latest change (month) will boost your strat.

I am quite curious how high you can hit(score/pr ratio) with it.

[EG] Almuric October 17 2005 7:37 PM EDT

Ranger, your shtick is getting really old. You've made the exact same post in every post even remotely related to the NUB for a while now. One wonders why someone who hates the game as much as you still plays it.


Excellent post, Sefton. It's a good idea. Why couldn't you start off with a small tattoo and grow with it? When you're ready to switch to your old big tattoo you can sell it.

We might be able to lean on Jon to up the power of UC if we can prove it's underpowered.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] October 17 2005 7:37 PM EDT

P.S. Ranger, I did not "blow" anything. I made a choice, family good over CB good. I don't plan on being #1 with these characters, but I do plan on kicking the butt of everyone near my PR :)

QBRanger October 17 2005 7:41 PM EDT


Not worth my time...., one can see if someone does not agree with you completely you attack them in forums repeatedly. Nice to see you keep the same MO. Ever wonder why I post about the NUB so much? Maybe to get under your skin?

But Seft, what about footware? Elven Boots?

The main problem with the enforcers xbow is needing a high dex to hit those TOA tanks with their boosted dex. Or to hit the TOJ's with their evasion and/or boosted dex.

Blarg October 17 2005 7:44 PM EDT

He might be the only old timer left if every old timer's goal in CB is to become #1. That has never been, and never will be, my goal. I am not committed enough to be #1 even if i had a NUB. My goal in CB has been, and continues to be, to have fun building and advancing my character. I do not compare myself to others, I compare myself to me. So at least, there will be one more old timer around to keep sefton company :).

Now, on the strat, i think its a fun way to advance quickly in the start, and easily changed to a good later on strat. The ToBF/exbow might not work, and I doubt it will, but it sure will be a fun thing to try. Notice ranger, I said "fun" because thats what this is here for. Its not to become #1, which, sefton already mentioned was not his goal. His goal is to have as much fun as possible playing this game, which is what all games should be about.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] October 17 2005 7:45 PM EDT

Basically I found for any real effectiveness at a low level you need a tattoo at your max level to justify the PR gain vs. your ability to defeat higher leveled opponents. You cannot grow a tattoo at your max level. You gain max tattoo faster than you gain levels on your tattoo, so you end up in the needing to always insta up. At higher levels I see that as a necessity, but at low levels, you can keep the tattoo PR off your PR for quite some time it seems so far :)

P.S. UC seems fairly potent at low levels. My weapon based opponents get hit hard by the big ranged weapon the NW allowance affords me without a weapon counting against it. So by the time the exbow is done with them, they are basically hitting for 1/2 my damage or considerably less :)

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] October 17 2005 7:53 PM EDT

Again Ranger, this is how to start out. I do not know where I will hit the wall, and at that point my UC generated "NUB" if you will (the disparity I can create using low NW to create high effect weapon at the lower levels) will go away. But right now, whether they have ToA or not, it all adds to their PR where my weapons doesn't, or I should say, not adding additional above my MPR. So for now, I can beat high score chars with a low PR character, giving me better rewards than my average opponent, and thus artificially create a NUB for myself. :)

Blarg October 17 2005 7:57 PM EDT

Oh, and the PR gain by armor isn't really too bad. I only get 17k PR from my 240 AC set.

Synco October 17 2005 7:57 PM EDT

Using a TBF is a great idea. Not only does it give backlash in melee, but it also provides evasion. The main problem is the mages. ToA tanks won't be a problem if you switch to an axbow.

Oh, and btw, that's a great idea for a farm. Get a 1k PR char, train UC, and get a Gi.

FailBoat[SG] [Forever Alone] October 17 2005 8:00 PM EDT

*randomness* As a NUB, who is horrible at this game and all you really need to do is click a button, I am utterly confused. Translation on the topic please. And I'm not talking about ANY of the replies.

Special J October 17 2005 8:03 PM EDT

Sefton is explaining how to quickly grow a character without the NUB, since you will eventualy lose that bonus and your rewards will come back down to the rest of the user base. It becomes a slow process..painfuly slow.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] October 17 2005 8:05 PM EDT

Sorry Silvarian, I honestly didn't think too many new people would bother to read my horribly long post. Basically as a new person, you gain a bonus called the NUB to your fight rewards. This is designed to give you a fair shot at #1 in the whole game. There is much debate on this, and I will not reiterate. As a person who never had the NUB (or perhaps one who has had the NUB run out) starting over can be a tough process and I am working on ways to leverage the game system into creating the advantage that the NUB gives new players. To say that its equal is probably not true, but to say that it does create an greater amount of rewards vs. my non-NUB peers is true, hope that helps :)

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] October 17 2005 8:08 PM EDT

Oh and Leon, against Fireballs, with AMF, a ToBF is very helpful :) At low levels you see a lot of mage takes damage from own fireball, fireball hit you for no damage, mage takes damage from own fireball you take (17) damage, etc :)

QBBarzooMonkey October 17 2005 8:10 PM EDT

That's exactly how I got past the PR/NW link when I started up again in mid June, after a month off - I retrained 3 out 4 minions with UC, with the 4th a FB/AMF mage (and was told I had the craziest strat ever.) But it allowed me to build up alot of XP cheaply, until I retrained two of the three tanks with new skills & equipment, one at a time, as my mpr/pr/nw growth would allow it...

I'm feeling pretty good now, realizing now that there really was method to my madness, especially when a player like Sefton is confirming it! UC needs more love!!! :)

FailBoat[SG] [Forever Alone] October 17 2005 8:25 PM EDT

Two things Sefton, I don't care about being number one, I want to have fun. Secondly, this is all really interesting things to learn for the days when I do lose NUB and would like to figure out how to actually make XP for my new characters when I finally figure out the game and want to try something new.

Synco October 17 2005 8:27 PM EDT

Hey everyone, let's try to convince Jon to give the TBF and aura effect!

Synco October 17 2005 8:29 PM EDT

an* aura effect.

A bonus to UC, and a little endurance would be nice too.

Stryfe October 17 2005 8:33 PM EDT

Maybe it would be a good idea to have the NUB Last for all new created characters for a certain ammount of BA, and not for New Users. How much BA is the question, I think 1000x30x4=120,000 BA is generous enough. Needs tweaking but if you all like the idea maybe Jon will do it.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] October 17 2005 8:35 PM EDT

And that is a great goal Silvarian, having fun :) I do hope that if you ever find yourself in a similiar situation as me (being without the New User Bonus or NUB) you will find a post like this helpful :) In the end, you either have fun or don't play. I will admit that many of the things I used to find fun in CB do not work, so I have had to see if other things would. This is just one thing I am trying, and if nothing works, well Ill cross that bridge when I get there :)

FailBoat[SG] [Forever Alone] October 17 2005 8:39 PM EDT

When you cross that bridge, let me know so I can read up on it and try to figure it out with you. Although I still don't know what half of those things you were writting about are. Like the ToBF. I know its a tattoo but I can't find it.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] October 17 2005 8:51 PM EDT

you'll do fine just like at mikel and his charector mikel jr. he does not even have the nub.

FailBoat[SG] [Forever Alone] October 17 2005 8:53 PM EDT

Ya know, I think I ran into him. Don't remember... *goes off to try and refresh his memory*

AdminNightStrike October 18 2005 1:20 AM EDT

Sefton, you're a genius....

You should add your strategy to the Wiki and compete with Grant's (which, incidently, EVERYONE under 100k seems to be using.)

Stryfe October 18 2005 1:56 AM EDT

Both around 13,000 PR. His MPR a couple thousand higher. The monk strategy in action.

Monk cast Antimagic Field on Rogue (0.21)
Ranged Combat
Rogue takes damage from his own Fireball (84)!
Rogue's Fireball hit Monk [1578]
Monk hit Rogue [685]
Rogue looks weaker!
Monk hit Rogue [597]
Rogue takes damage from his own Fireball (96)!
Rogue's Fireball hit Monk [2021]
Rogue takes damage from his own Fireball (108)!
Rogue's Fireball hit Monk [2919]
Monk shot Rogue [580]
Melee Combat
Rogue takes damage from his own Fireball (120)!
Rogue's Fireball hit Monk [2467]
Rogue cries "Grrrr...!"
Monk pounded Rogue [1545]
Monk beat Rogue [1170]
R.I.P. Monk

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 18 2005 2:02 AM EDT

Sef, I'm sure that making a normal tank, and using a weapon that keeps under your PR allowance will perfom far better than UC.

One thing to consider, without UC you can take BL. Another non PR way (BL will even take less XP, and therefore less MPR increase than training UC) to significanly boost your damage.

I had a Massive UC and a fair sized Strength, and did less than 30K per hit.

I'm sure a weapon + BL would do better.

onlyyouknow October 18 2005 3:18 AM EDT

I've a question on using a ToA on a UC minion. Does the path to hit from the ToA work for UC? It will be interested because If you have trained u to level 50 on UC and ToA adds to it, you'll get a pretty decent chance to hit very often.

BrandonLP October 18 2005 3:27 AM EDT

I believe the pth stacks with UC, as UC is a weapon, but GL is correct. You'd be better off using weapons under the limit. When Brock was SMT, I did enough testing and such to realize that UC is simply what Jon intended it to be: the poor man's tank. Gis are cheap, HGs are cheap, heck, even Exbows are cheap. It's like digging a three foot deep hole with a spade instead of a shovel.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] October 18 2005 8:40 AM EDT

A couple of things to add :)

First, Stryfe has more MPR than Silent Monk, not a couple of thousand less. Not a lot more or anything. And this strat does not make single mages less powerful, but they are boring :) Heck he is already adding in protection just to keep from being bored.

Second, GL, its not true at low levels. The reason is, you can make your ranged bigger. If your NW allowance for weapons is X, you have to make melee 1/2 X and ranged 1/2 X (or some derivation X=Y(ranged) + Z(melee)) A Blacksword of Nan Elmoth [92x10] (+10) 126,779 So you can add 126K more to the exbow than you would otherwise, and the BoNE does about the same damage as UC at (22). I tested it fairly well. I will admit I did not test BL with the BoNE, but since BL is a ratio of ST where UC is not, you can train very little into UC (or none at all) and let the Gi and HG carry you on. My 2,300 score UC by itself adds but 3 to the UC score, and could very easily be unlearned to base without much loss in effect.

Third, exactly Brandon, and even though I have all the gear you could want to make any sort of tank, what is a small character but a poor man? Someone mentioned a 240 AC gear set adds but 17K to his PR, but that would more than double my current MPR (around 11K) which is my point. You keep your PR close to MPR and then defeat opponents with high scores and you get good rewards.

Maybe I am wrong, that is always possible, but perhaps an example would help me find out. So here is the top 10 on my fight list reward results, in order from top to bottom (just so happens to be during exp time, so I can show some that aren' later)

You are awarded $51 and your Minions receive 118 exp each. Clan bonus: 5.8%
You are awarded $27 and your Minions receive 75 exp each. Clan bonus: 5.8%
You are awarded $26 and your Minions receive 82 exp each. Clan bonus: 5.8%.
You are awarded $26 and your Minions receive 81 exp each. Clan bonus: 5.8%
You are awarded $47 and your Minions receive 73 exp each. Clan bonus: 5.8%
You are awarded $24 and your Minions receive 88 exp each. Clan bonus: 5.8%
You are awarded $33 and your Minions receive 99 exp each. Clan bonus: 5.8%
You are awarded $19 and your Minions receive 70 exp each. Clan bonus: 5.8%.
You are awarded $43 and your Minions receive 93 exp each. Clan bonus: 5.8%
You are awarded $36 and your Minions receive 80 exp each. Clan bonus: 5.8%

So I never had NUB, and yah not a ton of experience playing low level single minion characters, but that seems like fairly hefty exp rewards to me. Maybe its not, maybe that is inline with what everyone is getting, but it seems like a lot, especially when I compared it to the RoE.

I know this strat will run out, and what Brandon and GL say is true, a weapon will be more effective, but this is not a long term thing this is how to start out and create an advantage for yourself, when you do not have NUB to start out with :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 18 2005 9:04 AM EDT

I thought the Melee and Ranged weapon allowancies were independant of each other? But it might be worth using a base UC and a Base Gi. HG s grant + to UC based on thier upgrade (it's 1.5 times their plus) and they get quite expensive, so it wouldn't be worth spending cash on them, you'll get a better return on spending that money on a weapon.

Base UC is a x0 +0 weapon. The Gi would give you +10. for a x10 +10 weapon.

I'd still sugest ignoring a ranged weapon (if allowance is linked), getting as big a Melee weapon as you can and train BL. High Strength doesn't do as much as upping your weapon, and BL works directly on weapon damage. So keep your Strength relatively low, with BL at a quarter, and I'm sure you'll outperfom UC+Gi.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 18 2005 9:06 AM EDT

Sef, if you're able to test the BoNE again, would you try droppping Strength enough to get BL at 1/4 and seeing what the damage output is compared to your UC?

I think at the moment, unless you want a speciality X Bow or Seekers, ranged weapons can be ignored. They don't do a lot of damage (Especially when compared to Melee), and ammo costs could be saved.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] October 18 2005 9:16 AM EDT

Ahh yes, but I am using an exbow, so lets say I hit myself with it, myself being the no ranged big weapon big damage from BL and upped weapon version. Just two hits from the exbow which is x10 +15 (and could be bigger, and will be shortly) and poof, they are pussycats :) Im serious, no one on my fight list does more melee damage to me than I do to them. In most cases (if not all) they are 1/2 damage or less. Yes it is possible that some other combination could provide similiar results, but I am not sure they could do it at such low MPR to PR ratio, which is my point :) I am setting things up such that I can give my ToBF idea a whirl. That is knock their ST down so low they do virtually no damage to me, while taking damage from the ToBF with every melee round. Then if they are ToA tank, with massive DX heck and even big DB's, they have low AC and take damage from hitting me, they might even lose without me laying a glove on them, I guess we will find out someday :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 18 2005 9:29 AM EDT

:) It's a cool idea! Exbow + TBF for Fire Splash fun!

I just think the same could be achieved, with better results by either a Mage or BL Tank instead of UC.

Maybe I'm just revulsed by the sheer thought of UC just from using it for a while...


QBJohnnywas October 18 2005 9:37 AM EDT

Mmmm Seft, got to admire the idea of mixing UC and TBF. I remember discussing something similar with GL a while back. But that TBF would need to be buffed considerably to make it worthwhile - it is without a doubt the most underpowered item in the game, even though I wish it wasn't.

Although as you say, coupled with AMF, especially at lower levels, it is a very good counter to FB which does mean you get through ranged far more easily.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] October 18 2005 9:41 AM EDT

Well I will be doing the opposite, using it just long enough to milk as much exp from the system as I can and ditching it. Since its not a ratio, its easy to learn and unlearn. You are not forced to keep it at some level for it to be effective because you can directly effect it by bumping gear. DB's and evasion don't do that, archery and BG's don't do that, TSA and BL (oops none of those), you get the idea. I know without a doubt when the +10 from the Combat Gi becomes an insignificant amount, then the whole thing falls apart, but thats OK, this is how to get going and move up quickly (and cheaply considering exbow/Gi/HG can be had at base for most likley less than 500K total)

And I will mention, that this strat does NOT make mages less effective than it, but it is a lot more fun! You lose to one guy because you didn't get that second ranged attack, you bump your DX a little, need to hit that enchanter a little harder and finish him off in one melee round you bump ST. Trying to stay alive through ranged and lots of magical fire power, you add HP. Not sure if you are knocking ST down enough, goose the X on the exbow, etc. Mages still rule the roost. This does not change that, but man its train HP DD and maybe an EO, rinse repeat. Someone is beating you, oh well don't fight them kind of thing. With a tank you can try to tweak before saying oh well don't fight them, and if you do not plan to be #1 what is left but to tweak :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 18 2005 9:43 AM EDT

:) I used a TBF hen I went UC with Tal. Wanted to combine the Evasion from Tattoo, UC, and DB s with FB reduction and Melee splash.

Problem was it stopped hardly any FB damage, tickled with it's splash, and although DB + Tattoo had me dodging some hits (This was with the fixed +10 Evasion), I hit back like an anemic girl...

ToA was far more useful, better than even a Gi.

I dropped ranged completely, as without VA I was killing myself on GA returns from my ranged damage.


AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 18 2005 9:46 AM EDT

More interactive ftw! :D

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] October 18 2005 11:32 AM EDT

GL, I have one advantage with playing Gyaxx. I learned early on, that you CANNOT dodge a ToA tank, firing a +100 axbow. You can knock it down to one hit, but you cannot dodge it, at least not with a tank. Maybe with a mage dumping all your NW into DB's and some exp into DX, but with all the other NW requirements for a tank, it's just not possible. So, you either join them (get your own axbow, knock their DX down) or find alternate solutions. I did not find them with Gyaxx before I needed to sell him, so I have no idea if it will work, but, since you cannot dodge them, why not try to make it so that when they hit you it doesn't hurt you much but hurts them. You cannot do that with GA since its a ratio of damage dealt, but the ToBF fires off its max damage even if they scratch you for no damage, so I thought hey maybe thats the ticket, with their low AC, maybe the idea is to make their blows hurt less than the backfire of the ToBF. Granted you still get the evasion, and it should help in reducing the number of hits you take (you only get one ToBF backfire even if they hit you multiple times) But that is the plan atleast to see if this can counter those ToA tanks with axbow/BL/Morgs :)

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] October 18 2005 11:57 AM EDT

I also want to mention, that this is not a beat everyone strat. This is not the greatest strat ever invented, this is not even the best strat overall. It is one of the highest exp earning strat I have been able to come up with, which is my goal, to make a small char a big char as quickly as possible, I would love a single minion NUB around 10K-15K MPR to post their reward data, so I could compare to my own, see if I am even close (or maybe even better :) I realize there are a lot of factors in strat implimentation that effect rewards, but still I would like a frame of reference.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 18 2005 12:21 PM EDT

Heavy single tank also has been known to work well fighting above pr...

It's all about the RoE for me, a named RoE combined with a good strat and reward maximizing fighting...I'll make it to 500k if my fingers bleed and I got nuts from lack of sleep.

AdminNightStrike October 19 2005 6:06 AM EDT

I've read several references to your NW allowance. What is it, and how do you calculate it? How do you know how much NW you can apply to a character?

AdminNightStrike October 22 2005 1:07 PM EDT


Mikel October 22 2005 6:08 PM EDT

I won't comment on UC, never tested it myself.
I do know how much damage I do with weapons under my NW allowance and it's more than enough.

FS: The NW allowarnce ratio is about 50:1 (NW:MPR) for Weapons only. There isn't one for Armor, which I think there should be.

AdminNightStrike October 22 2005 6:19 PM EDT

1) What's FS?
2) Where does 50:1 come from? Is that an enforced ratio, or a guideline to ensure adequate rewards?
3) Am I to understand, then, that Armor doesn't increase NW? I thought it did.
4) Should I start a new thread for all of this?

Mikel October 22 2005 10:21 PM EDT

1) Sorry FS = NS
2) Equip stuff of varying NW, that will tell you how much NW per MPR you are allowed. It is a set rate in the game.
3) Armor doesn't affect your PR if it is base. any +'s on it and it does.

AdminNightStrike October 22 2005 11:39 PM EDT

So what happens if I try to equip stuff with more NW than is allowed? And how do I see how my MPR is being affected?

Where is all of this explained? I don't see it in the Help, FAQ, or Wiki.

Special J October 22 2005 11:42 PM EDT

Your PR goes up.

Your rewards go down.

Adrian Exodus October 22 2005 11:42 PM EDT

AdminNightStrike October 23 2005 12:08 AM EDT

Thanks for the link, but the Wiki doesn't explain ratios.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 2 2005 4:41 PM EST

Just to update things, the strat is working well.

Score / PR / MPR: 302,163 / 86,496 / 52,401
Net Worth: $5,052,880

The NW is primarily tied up in a way over sized lesser tattoo of balrog flame.

A Lesser Tattoo of Balrog Flame lvl 154,720
Max tattoo: 71,420

I am now keeping the weapon allowance equal to the total NW on the exbow, so I am basically able to dump all the NW into the ranged weapon. Minor trained UC adds 4 and the HG's add the rest to give me (20) UC. So with minimal armor NW adding to PR, no weapon NW adding to PR, and a maxed out tattoo I am able to achieve almost 3x score to PR ratio.

The top 5 opponents on my current list yield the following rewards:

You are awarded $257 and your Minions receive 97 exp each. Clan bonus: 5.5%.
You are awarded $229 and your Minions receive 130 exp each. Clan bonus: 5.5%.
You are awarded $251 and your Minions receive 122 exp each. Clan bonus: 5.5%.
You are awarded $113 and your Minions receive 102 exp each. Clan bonus: 5.5%.
You are awarded $108 and your Minions receive 102 exp each. Clan bonus: 5.5%.

So using the least popular melee weapon UC, the least popular ranged weapon Exbow, and the least popular tattoo LToBF, I am generating significant rewards. (at least it seems it to me, never having the NUB as a frame for comparison)

I am sure here pretty soon, I will hit the wall, and have to make a move to either significantly increase UC or switch to conventional weapons, but for now, the plan is still full steam ahead. The tattoo finally became more useful than the Gi about 4 days ago, and I would forecast a switch to a regular melee weapon within 14 days, but probably sooner.

So, I think instead of taking that next step of dropping UC, I will try the same strategy on my NCB character and see what I could do with that bonus on this strategy. All I can say for certain is, this strategy is working better than I ever expected it to :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 2 2005 6:31 PM EST

Yeah, it's a shame that just about any tattoo works better for a UC tank than a Gi...


AdminNightStrike November 2 2005 11:20 PM EST

Not in the beginning. I believe that is what Sefton is saying -- there was a crossover point.

Sefton, I wish I understood these game mechanics like you do, and would be able to follow a similar strategy. I still don't understand this whole ratio thing. You mention that you have the whole weapon NW allowance in ranged. Ok, can you elaborate on that?

If a hypothetical character has 100k MPR, does that mean that he can have 5m NW in a weapon? Does that mean that there are penalties above that value, and no penalties below it?

Where is this documented?

AdminNightStrike November 2 2005 11:22 PM EST

Also, where do the armor and tattoo calculations fall into place? With the same character, how much NW can go into armor, and how much into a tattoo? Well, I would guess that a tattoo should always be at max level, right?

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 3 2005 12:03 AM EST

Well, to be honest NightStrike I don't really know all the hard and fast mathamatical numbers. But I can answer some of your questions.

Basically speaking in regards to the weapon allowance. Your MPR generates a certain level of weapon allowance. This allowance allows you to equip ranged and meleee weapons of a certain NW for "free". Free meaning that the equipping of those weapons adds no PR. This allowance uses a formula like this X (weapon allowance) = ranged NW + melee NW. So normally, with both melee and ranged weapons equipped you have to split this allowance between both types of weapons. Because UC adds no NW and no PR, you can make it X (weapon allowance) = ranged weapon NW. So I can basically add NW to my ranged equal to ALL of my allowance instead of splitting that allowance between ranged and melee. I leverage that advantage to get better rewards.

Adding armor of any sort above base (meaning +0) adds some NW. There is no allowance. The idea for me here is to keep the number of items adding PR via NW down to a minium so that I get maxium effect with minium gain in PR. In my case that means I have only two pieces of armor that are adding PR via NW the HoE and the HG. When I take off the tattoo my PR/MPR is like this: PR / MPR: 58,960 / 52,401. So as you can see I am adding only 6K+ PR to my MPR with my armor, but I gain a x20 +20 weapon and a 14% boost in ST.

As far as the tattoo goes, I have found that yes in order for the tattoo's PR gain to be totally justified it has to be at max. Anything less than max means that your bang for buck (your effect on combat vs. the PR gain of the tattoo) is less and less.

Now as a caveat, these factors, all of them, are only truly in play when you do not have a top 10 character. The rules for a top 10 character are much different than the ones I have described here. If you have a top 10 character you can add NW with impunity. You can have a tattoo that is not at max level and still justify the PR gain. But below the top 10, you have to carefully consider all of these factors.

GL: Yes it is a shame. And as NightStrike mentioned, there is a point where the +10 UC is greater than the effect a tattoo can add. A base Gi adds no PR but gives a +10 UC. Granted you eat up this advantage real quick and have to switch very soon and that is sort of a shame because since the UC gain is fixed, the usefulness of the Gi is a lot less than say the HG which adds UC based upon the + of the HG.

Hope that helps explain things. In the end its all about keeping the PR gain from NW as small as possible while still getting the max gain of combat effectiveness. Doing this means you can beat players of a higher score than your average peer, and get rewards greater than average of your peers. That is truly the idea, because it allows you to grow faster than your peers, thus restarting without a NUB. Or artificially creating your own "NUB", however you want to look at it.
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