Fine, in response to Undertow (in General)
New thread time.
"I love how everyone is just ignoring GL in this "congradlatory" thread. GL, why can't you ever just open up your own thread for an arguement like this and stop other peoples happy threads from turning into debates?"
As i said, if Kitty has actually worked hard enough to earn where she is now, (a full 1/3 harder than Ranger) congratulations. Wow! That's a massive achievement.
Persoanlly, I don't think this has happened. I think the bonus is giving too much. I'd prefer to think that than something nefarious is happening with BA expenditure.
If Kitty hasn't worked a full 1/3 harder than Ranger, I'm sorry, but no congratulations should be given. That achievement has been gifted, not earned.
November 20 2005 5:59 AM EST
So what you're trying to say is, that kitty shouldn't be congratulated for being the #1, because that achievement has been gifted? Instead you think that you should be congratulated for unknown reasons, because you open up a "congratulations to GL for getting x amount of mpr in y amount of time". (on a sidenote, you think that hasn't been gifted)
I smell ..jealousy.
Our opinions on the NUB are somewhat similar, but on this they certainly differ..
I do however agree that it's absurd to believe that she's fought 1/3 more than Ranger.
However here's where I don't agree.
She's a newb!
I don't care what her PR is. She's a newb. Semi-newb anyway.
She started with an overpowered bonus. She fought her way up there and then it was nerfed, but too late to stop her taking top spot in MPR. However she was not 'given' anything.
For a new player to have done that well to both fight the same amount as one of CB's best, to have had the brains to have a solid strategy so she can keep climbing the ranks and to have done so with more consistancy than most of us (fighting that much for three months is not easy, especially for someone who is new to the game). She's earnt it. Even with an overpowered bonus, you'd have to earn it to get there.
Now back to agreeing with you.
Being able to get there with a month's bonus left is ridiculous.
However the recent change should stop this.
It possibly took a little too long to happen, but I can't see what damage has been done.
P.S Exiili, I think you missed the point of those threads. ;)
Xiaz on Hiatus
November 20 2005 6:23 AM EST
If given a good thing, use it. There's no reason not to!
Exili, you missed the point.
MrC, If Kitty through hard work had passed Ranger at the end of her bonus time, Brilliant! That's dedication.
I'm not ignoring the hard work that Kitty has already put in, and before people start again, this is in now way a paersonal attack on her.
But what her character has acheived has gone far beyond expectations. Why is this? either the bonus is still flawed and giving too much, in which case her position has been gifted and not earned, (which is not Kitty's fault...), She really has worked *that* much harder than anyone else (Which I find hard to believe), or there has been some nefarious involvement (Which I don't want to believe).
It's like me being (OK extreme example...) congratulated for getting to the top MPR spot in just 10 clicks of 'fight' as that's where the bonus has taken me.
The damage done is that Ranger has been (in my opinion) unfaily passed. And if the bonus is still in application, he has no competitive way to make up this gifted, unfair gap ahead of him.
Granted, this is moot if Kitty really has worked that much harder, in which case my exclaimation of WOW! Still stands. That would truely be some awe inspiring dedication, and she would deserve every congratualtion given to her.
Xiaz, encouraging someone to take advantage of a game system not working as intended is supporting expoits. Hey if this bug get's you 'X' even though we know it's wrong, use it! everyone can! ;)
November 20 2005 6:43 AM EST
I agree completely. But I have said the same thing you have for months now mostly falling upon deaf ears.
At least the NUB was changed to reflect how good Kitty has played it.
Lets see who the next person to pass Kitty is.
GL, I'm sorry, but you seem to have missed my point.
First of all, the effort required to get there isn't far from equal when you compare what kitty has done to what ranger has done. His has taken 11 months, her's only 3. But the difficulty of those three is much higher.
Besides, the most important stat is not MPR. Well, I guess it's not even a stat. But that's besides the point.
The most important thing in this game is who wins. Last time I checked, Ranger still holds the title.
There is very little wrong with someone passing his stats, it's simply a trivial thing if kitty still cannot beat his char.
What damage has been done? Nothing has changed, except we now have a new character up there to battle it out for top spot. The only way there is any logical reason to claim that something is wrong with that is if she consistantly beats Ranger, until that day comes I think it's unreasonable to complain about it.
November 20 2005 7:21 AM EST
Actually Chuckles it is important.
Kitty can sell off her character to someone with a USD bankroll and viola, I am not at the top anymore.
If characters were not transferrable, then you would have a point, but right now that is not the case.
Sorry MrC, I think I have. :(
"First of all, the effort required to get there isn't far from equal when you compare what kitty has done to what ranger has done. His has taken 11 months, her's only 3. But the difficulty of those three is much higher."
No it's not. It's easier. That's what the bonus is there for. Les fights, greater rewards. Less change months. How can those three months possibly be harder than Rangers 11?
"Besides, the most important stat is not MPR. Well, I guess it's not even a stat. But that's besides the point.
The most important thing in this game is who wins. Last time I checked, Ranger still holds the title.
There is very little wrong with someone passing his stats, it's simply a trivial thing if kitty still cannot beat his char."
To me, MPR is the most important stat. It's the one least effected by USD. Bar buying new minions, it's the only record of effort over purchase. Plus, it's what the bonus is based on. I suppose that why I prefer Mages... To be the best tank, buy the biggest weapon... But that#s a different topic! ;)
"What damage has been done? Nothing has changed, except we now have a new character up there to battle it out for top spot. The only way there is any logical reason to claim that something is wrong with that is if she consistantly beats Ranger, until that day comes I think it's unreasonable to complain about it."
Give Kitty as much NW as Ranger, and she will win. Ranger is still unbeaten because of the amount of cash investment. But I'm not interested in who can spend the most.
Ranger now has no way of catching Kitty's MPR. That's the problem. A month of existing bonus (which we both agree is wrong) just makes that worse.
May I ask why this was moved?
It's not a congratulations, nor is it off topic. It's a discussion about how someone has used a game mechanic to take the top MPR spot.
November 21 2005 11:09 AM EST
Copied into the more appropriate thread:
If we look at YTD clan points, Ranger's got a shade over a million, which for 10 months of play (late Jan) works out to about 100k clan points per month. If the stats are right and kitty's clan points reset based on her join date with Supreme (and I believe that's the case, as my points reset as well), she has around 310k points for just over 2.5 months of play, which works out to just under 120k clan points per month.
Further assume both hit 3 point targets almost exclusively (and assume they have about the same Sunday play), and that means kitty has 20% more BA burned in her bonus time than Ranger's lifetime burn rate. That means kitty's bonus should put her at about 15% more MPR than Ranger at the end of her bonus period.
Whew! I think I had those numbers right. That means kitty's right on track.
GL, Jon has had to modify the NUB twice during the time Kitty has had it to lessen the extent it works, NUB players were not rescaled accordingly so Kitty kept what she gained before the changes.
We have not had enough time to see if the new formula is right for Jon's prediction so to say it is still too strong is false. Jon admitted twice now that he has made it too strong and changed it but Kitty has already benefited from it and she has still had to put a tremendous amount of effort into her place as any slacking would result in a loss of challenge for that place.
Finally, if she cannot keep up the good work in the next month and after the bonus ends or even takes a single weeks break then she will be left open to slipping back down the leagues. I am starting to take distain on your bitterness to new people at the top as much as Ranger used to go on about it, if you want that make a big offer for the top character on CB1 and play that.
November 21 2005 11:34 AM EST
She still can't beat TAB either as her NW is around 100M NW less (or higher depending on what Ranger has equipped). Just making a point, her MPR may be higher, but shes still not #1. :O)
this will all be moot by march, the richest person in this game happens to be building an NCB char with a fury...I give a month before he's beating Kitty...
Yup, sure will be moot soon... Hell, I'm even aiming to overtake Kitty's MPR. Back me up with loads of cash and I'll be the big dog until the next man comes along...
Tezmac, I understand that, which is why I'm not worried about who beats who out of the two. The one who spends the most wins that battle.
Zog, Jon amneded the bonus for the length it had been active, so Kitty sohuld have seen more of a reduction than most, to being her back intot he 95% line (with equivalent effort).
G, Cool, so Kitty's working 15% harder than Ranger? To get where she is now, she would have had to be working slightly double that at 33%.
November 21 2005 12:27 PM EST
Wow, I thought I'd been fined when I saw this thread. :: whew ::
November 21 2005 12:46 PM EST
If someone has earned something no matter how trivial one may think it or what method was used (legal method I should say) they have done a good job and should be give recognition for the task.
November 21 2005 6:03 PM EST
"If Kitty hasn't worked a full 1/3 harder than Ranger, I'm sorry, but no congratulations should be given. That achievement has been gifted, not earned. "
I'm curious where you pulled the 1/3 harder than Ranger from, Ilovehellokitty's bonus for the last month is dramatically lower than it was in the first three (130% vs about 20%). I doubt ilovehellokitty will be any more than about 8-10% higher in MPR than Ranger by the end of her NUB. So the question is really more like, has kitty worked 10% harder than Ranger not 33% harder than Ranger.
November 21 2005 6:09 PM EST
Derek you make no sense with your math,
Ranger has played for ~11 months.
Kitty has played for less than 4.
In that time the fights per day is almost even, and 4 months of dedication versus 11 months of dedication.
Stop and think.
And before kittyou changes her minion names to something new, no one is stating their effort of using all BA possible is not something to be looked up to. However being given a hand out much larger than you should is not something to be congratulates for.
November 21 2005 6:32 PM EST
What? Please explain the flaw in my math.
Jon states the NUB is designed to allow a player who fights on average as hard as the top player to be at 95% the xp of the top player by the end of their NUB.
If kitty ends up with 10% more xp than Ranger, then by what Jon has stated kiity must have fought 10%/0.95 = about 12% harder than Ranger (if you assume the calculations Jon made in the change log thread are correct).
Sure kitty only had to do it for 4 months vs 12 months but that point has been argued time and time again. I assume the point GL is making here is that if kitty hasn't been fighting as hard on average for those 4 months than Ranger has on average over the year then she shouldn't be ahead of Ranger which is a different point entirely.
GL, 3 months is almost as hard as 11.
Well, if the 3 months is with the NUB.
The only thing a vet like Ranger has to worry about is consistancy. If he keeps fighting enough and doesn't let his NW fall back, he's going to be right up there.
Kitty on the other hand, is still new to the game.
Think back to when you just started, do you really think you'd be able to do what she has?
Personally, I wouldn't have had any hope in the first 3-4 months of getting anywhere. I went for the "four minions and train something in every spell slot just because I can" strategy for a while. Would have done the same if mentors were around back then too, simply because like a lot of newbs, I don't tend to listen when I'm supposed to.
By my (unreliable) calculations, kitty would have to have fought 4k more battles to have burnt the same percentage of BA as Ranger has. That's no difference at all.
For someone in their first four months of playing to spend that much BA, maintain a solid strategy and do so consistantly for that long... it's a lot harder than it would be for a vet.
Ranger, you make a good point, but when we consider that Jon has kept it down to only one NUB char getting to the top, the odds of it selling to a USD spender are not good at all. If it happens anytime soon, then there will have been some damage done, but as it is I cannot see what is wrong with it.
And GL again, you actually make a good point about the importance of MPR. I'd never looked at it like that. Personally I'd rather just see who wins because that way people get credit for being intelligent enough to come up with a half decent strategy. However there's no way to say which way is better, so I'll concede that it's not ideal that she was able to take top spot in MPR so quickly. But that doesn't mean she hasn't earnt it.
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