ToA needs to go. (in General)


WeaponX November 28 2005 11:35 AM EST

i was the biggest supporter of it and still use it but i know see why it is unfair. now i can beat Userfriendly a non ToA tank with almost double my MPR and similar NW. also it is main reason USD has taken over the game because with a ToA a tank needs no added ST with a bit of dex no non ToA tank can hit you if you use the proper gear (axbow DB) i feel that without the ToA USD would lose some effectiveness. plus it seems that the top is ToA or bust and i for 1 find that depressing. So you want to keep the ToA? how about leaving it as a PTH tattoo and remove the ST and DX. thoughts?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 28 2005 11:40 AM EST

It isn't gonna happen, Jon doesn't typically nerf the top strat, and he's been hesitant to bring on the hatred from those who used $US to get there.

WeaponX November 28 2005 12:00 PM EST

i think jon has the guts to do what is best for the game novice. it is my belief this is best.

bartjan November 28 2005 12:00 PM EST

I don't really care who can beat me and who can't ;)
What I do notice, as a non-ToA tank/enchanter, is that I manage to keep my PR ranking at a constant level for months now, without using any $US, or buying every BA possible. There are enough characters with score above my PR I can beat.
So I think my strategy might work, despite everyone saying that you can't run a tank without a ToA.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] November 28 2005 12:11 PM EST

Keep moving up, Bart, it gets ugly. :P

Quark November 28 2005 12:16 PM EST

bartjan's char has heavily invested in strength, not dex, by choice. The adam, cml, hod all mean that he can toast mages, but not even non toa tanks. And don't forget, Mega, that I set up Maranello with lots of dex to be able to outmaneuver as many tanks at my MPR as possible.

While the ToA has a huge PTH advantage for triples and quads, it has enough weaknesses (to mages) that I think it's a reasonable tradeoff.

! Love Barney November 28 2005 12:28 PM EST

ToA is too strong. No tat can even get close.
Familiars only get 20% of hp from its level so those are gone within 2-3 rounds unless u have a lot of xp invested in AS.
ToJ get 1/3 of its exp for hp. Its suppose to be like another minion but how many times does it actually get to melee? and if it does, how much damage does it really do?

60% st and 40%dx is too much and the pth is ridiculous.

" 450,000 will grant about 40-45 PTH." wow.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] November 28 2005 12:29 PM EST

I think without it tanks would be too powerful compared to mages. As G says it is an integral part of the rock/paper/scissor model.
It is not the main reason USD has taken over the game, it is just the best vehicle for USD leverage, the reason that USD dominates at the top is that a few people have spent so much of it :). In fact I believe it gives mages a chance at the top where they would have none versus a USD pumped tank in a ToE or RoS team. If you want to reduce USD effectiveness reduce the NW allowance for weapons.

WeaponX November 28 2005 12:31 PM EST

RD about that idea... well for 1 at the top PR has no impact on rewards so that's kind of pointless

QBRanger November 28 2005 12:36 PM EST

Familiars get 100 percent of their level in DD spells AND 25 percent into HP. Total 125 percent.

Maelstrom November 28 2005 12:38 PM EST

With my old character, Vainamoinen, I was in the top 20 score, and the only people I couldn't beat were those with massive NW or higher MPR (and a couple of very specialized strategies). The character was a FB-ToE mage with a tank and two enchanters. I could easily beat ToA tanks of similar level.

QBJohnnywas November 28 2005 12:48 PM EST

Sorry MM, gotta disagree on this one. The ToA is powerful but so are other tattoos if used properly. The number one single minion tank is a ToE tank. And there are a couple of other ToE tank teams up there.

It's not the tattoo that puts the big tank teams at the top, it's not even the NW, although that gives them a head start. It's the amount of down click down click that the players do. Check out the people who've fought the most battles and then check out the upper ranks. NUB (and very soon NCB) aside there is a pattern to it. One or two notable exceptions but otherwise...

When are people going to get it into their heads that the amount of time put into the game is a huge part, possibly the biggest part, of what makes the successful players successful?

WeaponX November 28 2005 12:57 PM EST

if you look at even kitty. there is no mage team that can beat her ToE or not. the ToA allows a tank to put in alot more HP than mages can take from them. honestly if a mage team went up against any 4 minion ToA team of similar MPR they will have serious issues

QBJohnnywas November 28 2005 1:05 PM EST

The reason that tank teams work so well, ToA or not, is that they can concentrate most of their NW into their attack. Mage teams unless they equip a familiar tattoo don't have the same option. A lot of a mage teams overall PR is defensive. And while that can help you be very successful you won't win at any level unless the larger portion of your PR is offensive.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] November 28 2005 1:08 PM EST

So how come I could beat Almuric, Labyrinth and Imp at times with BCS while YOU was beating me with much less mpr and relatively low NW (ToE tank team)

QBJohnnywas November 28 2005 1:10 PM EST

One more thing and then I'm going to start cooking my dinner.

Go and look at the stats for tattoos. Look at the size of the larger ToA's and the characters wearing them. Where are they placed? Then look at ToE's and ask the same question of the wearers? On average the larger ToEs in the game are a lot smaller than the larger ToAs and yet are able to fight at a very high level in comparison.

I'd say if any tattoo was overpowered or out of balance it was the ToE.........and I have always been a supporter of it and still use it.....

WeaponX November 28 2005 1:11 PM EST

my guess is that they were not fully formed teams. with the new strat line of hp on enchanter's BCS would not win any of those battles RD

WeaponX November 28 2005 1:13 PM EST

johny a good 60% of those Tattoos were not always ToA. wonder why they switched?

QBJohnnywas November 28 2005 1:24 PM EST

Rubberduck - if you remember I was also able to beat you at times with Jack Crow. Very low MPR but quite a large ToE. I did it by lasting thru ranged into melee - thanks to the ToE and various other defensive items - where your mage and FF then finished the fight for me. It wasn't that I actually won those battles, you lost them for yourself. And that's probably what YOU managed to do against you.

MM, some of the switched items were because they were large tattoos that were available at the time. Mine hasn't always been a ToE - it started out as a steel familiar once upon a time. Most of the longer term ToA users have always been ToA users. The others, those who've bought older characters have gone ToA because as people have said, it is the best way to employ NW.

WeaponX November 28 2005 1:27 PM EST

and johny it is my contention that it is to good at deploying NW

QBJohnnywas November 28 2005 1:34 PM EST

Unfortunately MM the view is skewed by the USD factor. I would be willing to bet that a mage team using say CoC and a ToE would be far more equal to a ToA tank team if those two teams were to start from scratch and only employ earnings from fighting only. It is the USD contribution to that NW that is out of balance. An opinion though not a statement of fact.

Lets see, as GentlemanLoser has said on several occasions, what another year brings, when there are far more huge mage teams near the top with multi million level DD spells....

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] November 28 2005 1:36 PM EST

You just have to become resigned to the fact that beating people who have put thousands of dollars into the game and fight a lot is going to be hard if not impossible. I did :)

QBsutekh137 November 28 2005 1:39 PM EST

The issue as I see it (and I agree with MM) is that ToAs are only overpowered way up high. At that point they become WAY too powerful. This is because a "mature" team is going to have a decent amount of NW (NUB, saving up, USD, whatever). I have always said, and now am more correct than ever, that there is no good way to leverage NW other than by using a ToA.

Mages have little to invest in, and what they do have has just been given an armor-PR weight of 1.0.

Non-ToA tanks can do OK, but not against a ToA tank. The dexterity difference is simply too great.

Magic has sooooo many layers that can defeat it: AMF, TSA, MgS, Protection, and straight AC. Not to mention, BL is more powerful (and popular) than ever. What foils a ToA tank? Especially on the "mature" type of character I mention above?

If the ToA is simply an end-game requirement here in CB2, then fine. But let's everyone just admit that then. That is not a problem with the game mechanics either...Jonathan can't help it that USD gravitates toward the top. The only way to do something about that would be to make NW mean less and less, and then everything would just be an MPR game. While I would have no problem with that, I think it leads to a boring game.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] November 28 2005 1:39 PM EST

But believe me it would be even harder for mage teams if you ditch the ToA.

! Love Barney November 28 2005 1:41 PM EST

" Familiars get 100 percent of their level in DD spells AND 25 percent into HP. Total 125 percent. "

100% of its exp goes to DD but DD doesnt do 100% of its trained exp. My numbers might be off but i think FB only does about 65%ish damage for trained exp and the wiki (it might be wrong) says that a familiar only gets 20% which means amf is the easy answer of getting rid of a familiar. So 125% isnt exactly on the mark...if we want to be technical its actually 85% for fb and 90% for coc.

on the other hand, 40% and 60% is what you get + the pth...which means u actually get more for the ToA...so thats what? 100% and some.

Its easy to counter a familiar, amf, but how do you counter the st and dx from a toa? EC? how do you counter the pth? DB's?

QBsutekh137 November 28 2005 1:46 PM EST

How so, Rubber?

Yes, it might be a tougher row at the lower levels (because I assume you mean ToA folks would switch to AMF/MGS/ToE and be hard to kill), but at the higher levels you would see some interesting stuff, I think.

Relic November 28 2005 1:48 PM EST

One thing that no one has brought up about ToA tanks is the weapons used. If you do not have a HUGE ranged weapon and a HUGE melee weapon at the higher levels, the character will get toasted by any and all teams. ToE teams will eat them alive and FB/CoC/MM teams with any tattoo besides maybe a ToBF will also destroy a ToA team without super nice weapons.

The PTH/ST/DX bonus from the ToA does NOTHING to aid in defending against mages. What are most teams? Mage Teams....

There are many strats that can and will dominate the game, look at Mikel's new character. His strat imo is awesome and beautifully crafted. He will be and already is a force to be reckoned with.

MM, you really need to stop complaining about strats that can beat you, and live with the fact that there is no uber-strat and trying to get Jonathan to nerf players who use USD is useless.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 28 2005 1:48 PM EST

I'd like to see the ToBF given some use, especially up high. The evasion capability combined with the damage to other tanks should be enough to do a lot vrs ToA tanks, but because a large portion of the ToBF's power is directed towards defeating FB, which splits the tattoo's focus down the middle. Ditch the FB prot, since everyone hates it anyway, and make it reduce backlash damage from amf/ga.

It creates a competitive tattoo for mages, with DB's and and ToBF, those ToA tanks no longer get QUAD hits. It leaves you open to other mages, but really makes a world of difference vrs ToA tanks, thereby assuring the rock scissor paper theory.

Oh and add T o B F to the spell check.

WeaponX November 28 2005 1:56 PM EST

glory. glory. glory... 1st off i am a ToA tank. 2nd off i can actually beat most of them at my level. 3rd USD dominates the top of this game like no MMOG i have ever seen. currently there is no way to beat DAWG/Ranger without higher or similar networth which means more USD. if you believe this is how it should be well that is your right personally i do not

QBJohnnywas November 28 2005 2:02 PM EST

Glory, I thought I'd mentioned weapons but maybe I was just thinking about them. I agree with you, and the thing about big weapons is that there is absolutely no counter to the weapons apart from maybe evasion as a skill or in items. For ST and DX you have EC, but like AMF it's a lot of XP to devote to just one type of foe. But the only counter to weapons is weapons...

WeaponX November 28 2005 2:11 PM EST

Havoc Score / PR / MPR: 1,195,008 / 1,499,177 / 375,273

Proteus II Score / PR / MPR: 1,529,062 / 1,376,737 / 1,050,019

Proteus II (The Order of Chaos) Havoc (Battle Royale) Draw 6 1:37 PM EST. still think there's nothing wrong?

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] November 28 2005 2:12 PM EST

As of now the ToA is necessary for a top tank team to compete with other ToA tanks but it is worse than virtually every other tattoo versus mages. As the main damage dealer must wear the tattoo it is vulnerable to spread damage (FB/CoC) which can bypass the wall and to GA. Put a ToE in there somewhere and a MgS on the tank and you become better not worse versus mages. It could depend on where the new levels for DX and ST would end up ie. someone could push DX really high to beat tanks while skimping on HP and becoming vulnerable to mages resulting in other tanks following suit.
Chuckles understands, he cited scrapping the ToA as a way to nerf mages.

QBRanger November 28 2005 2:16 PM EST

Actually Megaman,

Your example of Havoc vs Proteus is perfect.

Almost the same PR's draw. It is just as Jon intended.

bartjan November 28 2005 2:17 PM EST

Megaman: PR of those 2 characters is close enough to not be surprised if they draw against each other.

WeaponX November 28 2005 2:18 PM EST

so you think MPR means absolutlely nothing then?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 28 2005 2:18 PM EST

Mega: that's a weak high level team and one of the highest NW teams in the game...find a better example. We know the ToA makes a great lever, Jon has had a chance to change that for a long time, and he hasn't. If you don't have the weight, you can't push the lever. It's really actually quite sensible, because even with how hard the big ToA guys push, the mages with far less NW are right behind. Give mages a NW lever and the fight is over. I agree with about Mikel's team (and not only because my favorite mage strat is essentially the same). If Mikel had a way to turn NW into more damage without adding PR (something ONLY tanks have) he'd be able to pull a Glory and wedge himself in the top spot as soon as he can equip some 30 mil NW item...

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] November 28 2005 2:19 PM EST

hehe I see Glory has surpassed himself in the top heavy character stakes :)

QBRanger November 28 2005 2:20 PM EST

And look at this one:
Score / PR / MPR: 1,170,661 / 744,787 / 468,808 -- Flip.

Flip (Ghostbusters) Havoc (Battle Royale) Flip 3 11:03 AM EST
With 1/2 the PR and just a bit more MPR.

See I can show examples to contradict everyone you post.

WeaponX November 28 2005 2:23 PM EST

did he have the MH on in that fight?

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] November 28 2005 2:23 PM EST

I imagine Havoc could be beaten by a very low FB/FF/DM

bartjan November 28 2005 2:24 PM EST

MPR indeed means nothing (except when you're a forger; or selling your character naked).

QBRanger November 28 2005 2:24 PM EST

And, O look at that,

Flip is a FB/FF/DM character that with 1/2 Glory's PR beats him silly.

I guess the FF is now overpowered and should be gone. Forget about the TOA, its the FF that is too powerful.

My one example proves that point, right?

QBRanger November 28 2005 2:26 PM EST

Megaman,

Lets review.

Flip's battle with Havoc lasted 3 rounds. By definition a battle with a FB mage needs at least 4 till you get to melee and can use a 70 Million NW MH.

So, in conclusion, Havoc's MH means NOTHING in that battle.

Like I said, it is not the TOA, but the FF that is too overpowered and should go :)

WeaponX November 28 2005 2:26 PM EST

Ranger find me an example of a FF DM team at 1/3 of his MPR like he is to proteus. you won't

QBRanger November 28 2005 2:44 PM EST

Exactly, but I did find one at 1/2 his PR, which as we all know is the deciding factor in rewards.

YOU November 28 2005 2:46 PM EST

TOA is over-rated. I wish rubber didn't sell BCS, 'cause i am still going to slap BCS without tattoo :P

Arorrr November 28 2005 2:49 PM EST

Megaman,

Why are you confusing MPR with PR? MPR mean nothing. I can make an extreme case of 100K MPR to win vs 2M MPR every single fight. It just comes down to PR and strategy.

100K MPR: HP, Dex, STR + MH + about 200K AMF with ToBF.
2M MPR: HP, Decay and very large AMF with ToBF.

Now if the 2M MPR loses to the 100K MPR, should we start crying ToBF nerf?

Please....

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 28 2005 2:52 PM EST

"The PTH/ST/DX bonus from the ToA does NOTHING to aid in defending against mages. What are most teams? Mage Teams.... "

CB isn't about defense. It never has been. If you've never read Sute's/TS's threads in CB1 (This is not aimed at anyone, I'm not replying to a specific post) then I 'd strongly reccomend them. I joined just at the hight / end of those.

Defensive here is never as strong as offence. Kill quicker, take less damage. Offence is the way to go.

Why quote Glory?

A ToA does nothing to defend against a Mage. If you aren't counting offence as a valid, if not the most valid defence here.

The added DEX and PTH from a ToA helps tanks (especially the stupidly overpowered BL ones...) murder (or maybe slaughter, I'm not sure which I prefer :P ) mages through extra attacks. The supposed tank equaliser to mages 'always hit' spells.

The problem is that the one thing designed to help Tanks kill faster (if you want to class the ToA versus the ToE as offensive tattoo versus defensive tattoo) also increases Tanks defence to other Tanks.

It does too much.

QBsutekh137 November 28 2005 3:50 PM EST

I think Ranger's example shows pretty clearly how any imbalance in CB2 is mainly from top to bottom, not side to side.

I have to agree that at lower levels, an FB mage is hard to beat. Heck, I am not even running a real tattoo and my stratgey/fightlist tactics are far from perfect. Yet I can still get close to a 3x score/PR ratio. My character is still small, however. Once I get into the realm of larger MgSes, ToAs, and TSAs, I will have to be far more careful about who I fight (but will still have plenty of viable targets).

But then at the high end (mainly Top Ten), it is a net worth game. Therefore, it is a ToA game. That is not actually odd. Just take a look at CB1 -- it has become a massive net worth swingathon.

The ToA isn't really the problem -- it is an obvious catalyst/target, but not really the problem. Net Worth is the problem, especially in the Top Ten where its influence has no real downside. But who here has an idea on how to make NW less important without turning the game into boring Mage Blender? Net worth is _fun_. Weapons and armor and hitting things hard is _fun_. If you have an idea on how to maintain that level of jocularity without adding net worth to the mix, then please, speak out. Honestly, I am all ears.

WeaponX November 28 2005 3:57 PM EST

remove the top 10 exemption to fighting down. this would force them to downsize they're PR

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] November 28 2005 4:09 PM EST

"ToA needs to go."

That I will agree with.

The rest of what you said... no. Those are not good reasons to be getting rid of it.

In fact, given Jon's recent changes, I don't mind the ToA so much. Still a dumb item, but not so bad anymore.

WeaponX November 28 2005 4:23 PM EST

it's not just the ToA it is what the ToA allows you to do mainly. because you don't need ST you can have more HP and AMF. because you have the ToA you can use DB very effectively. couple that with PTH and at the top only ToA tanks can hit another ToA tank with weapons.

QBsutekh137 November 28 2005 4:25 PM EST

I hear the "remove top ten exemption" a lot... Still mulling it over after all these months... Seems so harsh to remove that "edge effect", especially with NUB/NCB folks blazing up the ladder...

Relic November 28 2005 4:37 PM EST

The example you showed of Proteus attacking me was silly Mega, that is with all my defensive equipment on. I do not fight with that equipment just equip it when I am not fighting, so I don't get farmed so much. :P

As far as Tanks vs. Mages, most mages with FB and FF combinations kill in 1/2/3 rounds and I do not even get a chance to hit them in melee. Mages only have to train two stats to be effective HP/DD Spell. Tanks have to train HP/DX/(BL or Archery) and have to use a ton of cb2 and/or usd to be viable.

I really do not see Tanks or ToA tanks for that matter as overpowered.

I tell you what would be overpowered, having a single FB mage with a huge FF tattoo and equipping a nice pair of AG's and a monstrous pair of DB's. They would be nigh unbeatable at high levels, just look at how successful Rubberduck was with BCS.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 28 2005 5:32 PM EST

Here is my take. An item that requires the expenditure of USD to be competitive cannot be over powered. Sure you can run a ToA tank at any levels, but it is only "over-powered" when you can ignore the amount of NW you sink into your character, and at that point if you did not spend USD, you are not in that small band of elite players at the top. Before you could do it with other means, now you have to spend the USD. I cannot see that as over powered. I still maintain that its the mages that are over powered as the can let say to sway on the negative side, compete at virtually any levels than the top, and do well with a minimal amount of NW and allow you to sell your CB2 for USD. Gosh I love blending two different thread posts into one :)

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 28 2005 5:38 PM EST

Sorry to be properly blended its, "allow you to sell your CB2 for USD at the going market rate or any price the market will bear. Gosh I love blending two different thread posts into one :)"

QBRanger November 28 2005 5:41 PM EST

And Sefton hits it out of the ballpark.

WeaponX November 28 2005 5:47 PM EST

but it does not require USD. look at Kitty she beats every mage team except IMP but he has a USD filled ToA tank. the only reason it requires USD now is to keep up with USD tanks beside them

QBsutekh137 November 28 2005 6:05 PM EST

That is a pretty good point. NUB can generate a lot of cash too. Also, ask Bast about some of the teams with a lower NW than her that can beat her (ToA powered).

Once the non-ToA teams are beatable, that is pretty much the end of the story (and MM's entire point). If y'all up there with ToAs want to spend USD to beat each other up, that's your own issue.

Who was the last non-ToA team that even gave Ranger or DAWG a run for their (literal) money? Was it BCS? How close did BCS get to beating them? Note: even if he got close, it would be because those teams are running a blended AMF/DM strategy...with full AMF, BCS would have had quite a bit more trouble). Rubberduck, correct me if I am wrong, I am not trying to speak for you here...

QBJohnnywas November 28 2005 6:09 PM EST

Staying out of this one now but:

"QBRanger, 5:41 PM EST
And Sefton hits it out of the ballpark." made me laugh out loud.

My wife thinks I've gone mad. Ranger, occasionally the dryness of your tone kills me!!

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] November 28 2005 6:14 PM EST

Don't think I did get close :)
Once most of the big ToA teams switched to Ax and pumped those and their DB for a while I had a chance (Dawg kept the elb so no go there)
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