Allowances and starting balance. (in General)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 1 2005 8:55 AM EST

I'm sorry, this post isn't going to be as clear as I want to make it.

Tanks, Mages and Networth. Tanks need NW to perform, Mages don't, the reason for the weapon NW allowance. As an added bonus to reflect item dependency, generally, Tank armour also has less PR weighting than Mage/Enchanter items.

The NW allowance, as it grows, can start to cause PR obfuscation especially when only a single weapon is used on a team. Someone using a lower base weapon under their allowance, switching to a larger base and enchanted one, can see a significant improvement, with a potential to either not increase their PR, or increase it by only a little.

I think all items, weapons or armour should add at least some PR. Any item you wear is making you stronger (bar the likes of the DCM of course!) and everyone’s PR should reflect this.

But how do you balance Tanks, who need items to perform?

My thoughts are two fold. First, add a PR weight to every weapon, giving some more choice over which to use. The tulwar (for example) has slightly less damage potential than the weapon above it, but a smaller PR weight.

Next, balance all types of minions at base. An idea already suggest and one I agree with. Hard to do, but I’ve a few ideas.

Make every minion attack unarmed (in melee) with their Str and Dex. As usual, weapons replace/add to this, as would training UC. Mages who train spells would have this attack replaced as DD spells are a higher priority. That leaves Enchanters. Some people want minions who don't attack. Have a very cheap new skill, with just a base rank called 'Pacifism'. Anyone with this trained doesn’t get the natural Str/Dex attack. What other skill are you going to train on an enchanter anyway?

All spells, UC damage and weapon damage would have to be balanced with each other. But all three options should start off equal in relative power. Weapons and UC do less damage than a DD cast, but they get the options of multiple hits. UC is an XP option instead of a NW option weapon.

As for DD compared to physical attacks, all need XP investment. UC spread more so, so the Skill should be a little stronger than the others, the added evasion is nice, but not enough. Weapons can be used to increase physical attacks, but now cause a PR increase. To balance this, add a PR weight to both the UC skill and al DD spells. Another option would be to include weapons for both UC and DD with PR weights.

I know this is quite rough at the moment, but I hope it conveys the general gist! :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 1 2005 9:02 AM EST

:( forgot to remove the word apostrophes.

Another thing that adding a PR weight to DD skills would help with things like the bonuses from AGs. Mine provide a 10% increase, at about a 21K PR increase. The more I naturally pump my FB, the better benefit I get from the PR increase.

Maybe we cold link PR weights with items used.

FB has an increased weight of .4 above the current natural PR increase from trianing XP. But this weight increases to .6 if AGs are equipped on that minion. In addition to the items PR increase from NW.

Or something like that...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 1 2005 9:06 AM EST

Also, I think I need to explain the idea of every minion attack ing in melee without a weapon.

The basis for this was to balance starting Tanks and Mages. Without needing weapons, I had an idea to allow tanks to attack with just trianing Str and Dex, which would be equivalent of a DD of the same XP expenditure (balanced between multiple hit and the single auto hit). Weapons could then be added to tanks to increase their effectiveness, but that would then mean Mages would need something to increas thier effectivenss to keep in line with tanks.

On the whole, I prefer the idea of PR weighting for DD, but hopefully someone can build a better idea from all this!


QBRanger December 1 2005 9:09 AM EST


Flight of ideas is the first sign of psychosis :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 1 2005 9:15 AM EST

I'm having a bad day today... Messed up twice on a simple Job. I couldn't really sleep last night and my mind is on other things! I need to go home! ;)

QBJohnnywas December 1 2005 9:18 AM EST

'First' sign Ranger? Haven't you been paying attention all these months? ;)

QBsutekh137 December 1 2005 10:09 AM EST

The devil is in the details...

I know I mentioned balancing "base" mages and tanks, but as Jonathan pointed out, that was an oversimplification. Balancing single minions may IMbalance the delicate structure of a duo, trio, or quartet team.

The NW/PR linkage is meant to be the balancer.

I do like the weighted weapon idea instead of this "NW allowance" that is on weapons now...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 1 2005 10:26 AM EST


PR is your overall 'power'.

Two Tank teams, exactly the same stats, but one has a Katana as a weapon, the other a BoTH. Both fall under the NW allowance, so neither weapon increases PR. Due to the cheaper upgrade curve, higher base damage and in built VA of the BoTH, the Blade user is more 'powerful' than the other tank, but both have the same PR.

Weapons with in built bonuses E/AXBows, BoTHs, Morgs and VBs should have a higher PR weight than other weapons. Even if the Weapon Allowance is kept.

Then there's the issue on an items effectiveness. A 10% increase to a DD spell for 21K PR is a huge decision at lower MPRs, but nothing at higher, while the benefit is so much more.

Adding an additional PR penalty to the level of the DD itself when using an item like this would help level the item across MPR levels.


Anyway, these ideas are a place to start! Anyone who likes them want to tidy it up a little?

onlyyouknow December 1 2005 10:32 AM EST

I thought I read something on reflecting the power rating of the weapon or armor based on the effectiveness of the item. But it didn't get used by Jon. It would be a fairer reflection on the power rating since a +10 CoI will have higher effect on "power" for a larger mpr character than a smaller one.

QBJohnnywas December 1 2005 10:36 AM EST

I think there is an imbalance in the current system. Following lots of head scratching and unlearns my char Jack Crow ended up as a two minion wall/coc-archer. Which left me sitting around 750k score and unable to climb any higher. He just couldn't beat anybody higher. So I unlearned CoC and pumped up my HP and added BL. Then I rented a large BoNE and ELB while I save to boost my own weapons. The unlearn of CoC left me with a lower mpr/pr overall. And then those large weapons only added 15k pr to my char. And yet their power is enabling me to fight at a score of a million +.

I'm actually a lower overall PR than I was with the CoC archer but with a much higher strength.

I don't really understand how this should be the case. My direct damage spell was one of the top ten in the game as well....

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 1 2005 10:37 AM EST

Yeah, all Spells/Skills/Stats could have a PR weight. If they are fine now, just keep that as 1. Then items that enchance stuff could apply an additional PR weight to the Spell/Skill/Stat, to reflect that you get more 'power' from it by having a larger natural to wrok from than a smaller. The items PR weight would be kept to reflect the 'power' (AC/Damage?) gained from the item itself.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 1 2005 10:39 AM EST


Your rented BoNE probably played a small part. ;)

QBJohnnywas December 1 2005 10:40 AM EST

BL only added about 40k per hit. I'm only hitting for about 250k per round - but that is against one minion at a time, unlike CoC which gets diluted. But against a single minion my CoC was hitting for about 400k per round....

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 1 2005 10:41 AM EST

Sorry Johnny, that's got to be a little out. BL doubles your damage, so if you're hitting for 250K a round, you would be hitting for 125K without it..


QBJohnnywas December 1 2005 10:43 AM EST

I'm only telling you what the numbers were!!! I'm not about to untrain anything else though to double check!!!! I'm going to have nightmares about untrain for months now. Off track I know but can we have a change to the untrain to match the tattoo artist change. I would pay to unlearn without losing xp....

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] December 1 2005 2:46 PM EST

I like some of your ideas there. Just imagine how much better a ToBF would be if every single enchanter and unarmed guy attacked... they'd all kill themselves. Of course, then evasion would become more of a problem than a help. Ah well. Keep up the good brainstorming.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 2 2005 6:45 AM EST

Mentioning tattoos... Instead of trying to balance what they do against each other, give them PR weights.

The TBF could have the smallest, while ToA/ToE a much higher weight.

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