USD sales and FS/WTB in general: let's get some respect (in Off-topic)
I am not holding out much hope that this works, but I thought I would give it a try. I love CB2, and I love the people, and I think it's a great game. But it is a little upsetting to see how rude people can be around here. Not to get too specific, I have a problem with the way some people are doing business. This includes people that are:
1. Ignoring minimum bids and disregarding what sellers request.
2. Spamming up the FS threads with lowball bids when no one else has had a chance to bid yet.
3. Bossing people around and arguing.
4. Being practically insulting towards others. This includes implying they are too stupid to understand supply and demand and how things work, and that others with another point of view don't know what they're talking about, and being all around being very confrontational.
5. Discouraging others that are buying from doing so in another persons thread, this reeks of rudeness.
6. All around harming CB2's nice atmosphere.
I'm sure that will also make some people mad, and I am sorry for that. I consider myself impartial, never having bought or sold for USD, but I know my opinion will make some angry. But please, no more fighting and arguing.
Let us all, please, just be more considerate and kind. If someone wants to pay more than you, do not attack that person or try to convince them they are overpaying. If someone has a minimum bid or other rules stated in their sale, listen to them. Or at least let the sale go a few days and then offer a lower amount if there has been a lack of interest.
I hope some of what I said sounds reasonable, and even if you do not agree that we have a problem, let us keep it a friendly place around here. Thanks for reading.
December 4 2005 1:55 AM EST
So if someone tries to sell off an Item for much more than what it's worth to someone that doesn't know the real value of it you will not post a warning?
I think, Vaynard, that most of this started when I was offering to buy supporterships for $10. My offer was attacked, then deleted by Shade, as he disagreed with my offer and claimed it was a ripoff:
I offered $10 again in another thread, and when I was attacked, Shade made the assessment that I was hijacking threads when I was instead defending myself (thus the attack on me was the thread hijack, not my defense of myself). Eventually, Shade denied claims that he was deleting my offers, and instead only deleting "spam". He created a new topic which garnered a lot of attention from people, including Ranger and Sefton. They acknowledged that my offer should not have been deleted, and acknowledged that I wasn't hijacking threads. That conversation died somewhat abruptly, and I keep meaning to go back and finish it. Perhaps I will once I get my RL straightened out.
Bottom line is that after that thread took place, several people realized that the economy wasn't fixed in stone as being 15:1. Trades happened a few days later between 12-13:1, and the following week, a good chunk of people were bidding at 10:1. The sellers didn't expect a sudden drop in the market, and grew angry that the value of their CB2 fell through the floor. With the sudden drop in value, big USD buyers zoomed in to buy as much CB2 as they could at the lower price, and didn't accept a higher price since 10:1 was happening with some regularity. Now, just a few weeks later, nobody buys at 15:1. That isn't wrong. That's business.
Now, however, there exists a definite battle between those wanting to buy at 10:1 and those wanting to sell at 15:1. I don't think that there's a problem with people posting below a min bid (that's called bargaining, and has been done for ages.) I think the main battles come into play when people get angry at the low bid of another person. What typically happens is that persons A and B will both be selling something (say $1m to make this easy). If person C bids $10 in A's thread, B will get angry because if that bid is accepted, B's sale will now be affected. Most likely, B bought at 15:1 or greater, and wants profit. The thing is, though, that that's just the way things work. You can't get angry at that -- it's how economics work at the very basic level. I honestly believe that the root of the negative that you're referencing can be attributed to the negative actions of the second seller.
I could probably expand more on this, but I don't want to make a giant post, then, as usually happens, have no one read it thoroughly or have people miss the finer points. I'll leave it at that. Perhaps I can post more later, but I doubt it.
December 4 2005 2:31 AM EST
NightStrike, this issue and your issues are not hand in hand. Try not to count yourself so important.
We agreed your offer should not have been deleted, but the rousing you received was called for.
Typically a new player to CB does not understand the ratio of CB vs. USD, you attempted to take advantage of this and you got busted on it. The ratio NOW has nothing to do with THEN.
Get over your grudge, if you call out Shade again you will be dealt with. He is an admin and you can respect him on that level or keep your trap shut about him. Find something new to carry on your shoulder like a chip.
Actually, nobody agreed that it shouldn't have been deleted. Further, while I was posting those offers, I was buying CB2 at 10 and 11 per million.
Your statement regarding shoulder chips does not belong here, though that idiom does oddly enough define your very character. You can easily send messages like that to me in a chatmail. Regarding this thread, I made several very valid points in my lengthy post. If you would care to respond to those points, I'd love to hear your comments.
I am also copying this here from that other thread in FS, as it is probably best posted here, as per Mikel's statement. It explains why buyers, and not sellers, have control. This expands nicely on the points made in the second half of my initial post.
The reason that buyers set prices rather than sellers is that this is what's known as a "buyer's market". Buyers have the upper hand in terms of what transpires and whether trades occur.
Why is this?
A quick Econ-101
A Seller's Market is one in which the seller *creates* the demand and thusly controls the price. A Buyer's Market is one in which the buyer *supplies* the demand, and thusly controls the price. A good example of a Seller's Market would be cell phones during the late 90s. Motorola, Qualcomm, and Nokia created a product demand once they hit 10% saturation through clever marketing techniques. Don't believe me? Think about this: Was there life before cell phones? Is there life now without cell phones? But do you REALLY need them? Nokia and others *created* a demand for a product that never existed, and so they were able to set the price at whatever they wanted -- $50, $100, $200. Now, cell phones have totally saturated the market, and buyers have the control. Most buyers realize that they don't have to pay for cell phones, and so won't purchase them until there is a freebie offer (ie, $200 phone with $200 of rebates, or some such thing).
So why is CB always a buyer's market? Well, the only one that can create a product demand is Jon. Compare this to the new TrollSkin Armor -- Jon set the price on a base one to $6 USD. Now, this is a loose example since buyers can control the exchange rate, but in the USD market, the TSA is fixed at $6. Buyers have zero control over that price. The seller, Jon, is the only one with control.
Are there markets that can exist as Seller's Markets on CB? Sure, but you have to be creative. They won't exist in selling CB:USD or any CB item. You can do things like CupofJoe did and run a banking institution. He can create the demand for loans (though obviously loaning exited prior -- just not as professional and structured). It's not easy, though, to create demand. You could run an item storage service -- hold someone's items for when they hit the limit on characters or something. I'm just tossing out ideas here that may be impractical but that prove a point. If you create demand for storing others' items, you can charge whatever price you want. Ranger ran a service of buying TSA's for people without paypal. He could have charged $1m CB2 if he wanted to, and I'm sure some people out there would pay for it. They aren't paying $1m vice 600k for a TSA. They're paying $1m vice 600k for a *service rendered*. Part of that service results in the procurement of a TSA. Are those enough examples of ways to create a Seller's Market? I hope so.
Bottom line: As long as Jon is the only one creating items, this will remain a Buyer's Market. Still have questions, see me after class.
One final closure point: Person B will get angry because he, as a seller, has no control over the market. Through the antics you describe, Vaynard, he can try to exercise indirect control; but direct changes to the market are controlled by the Buyer (in terms of buying items and cash).
December 4 2005 2:54 AM EST
I personally believe that if the seller has set a min bid or a price that he/she expects, then no one should post unnecessary comments in that thread if you are not willing to pay that amount. The buyer SHOULD cm the seller instead of spamming the thread. I will not name any names but they know who they are. There are NO fixed rates for anything that is for sale so let's just keep it that way. And I remembered a while ago people who were caught spamming were fined, I wonder why this is not so anymore.
Couldn't be bothered reading all your stuff nightstrike...=p Try being more concise in future...^_^
Vaynard!! I agree with you 100%!! All 6 points!! I think your points should be there for all to see whenever someone enters the FS/WTB forum. Perhaps written in a nice bold red text so that it captures peoples attention and encourages them to behave...=)
Did you at least read the short post?
I find it more difficult to be concise in text than in speech, given the lack of intonation, inflection, feeling, passion, etc etc. I summarized most of it, though, in saying that it's a buyer's market, and thus why sellers get angry.
December 4 2005 3:36 AM EST
I definitely agree that all the people ignoring minimum bids are rude. We all know that people want to pay as little as possible for items, but if a seller sets a min bid I think it should be respected.
Nightstrike, you make some good points. You should start your own thread for them, and put them out where more might see them. However, you're lecturing us on 'Economy 101' in the thread that should be called 'Common Courtesy 101.' Here is not the place, at least in my humble opinion.
Nightstrike raises an indirect point though. We have buyers and sellers. Each group thinks it is right on the conversion rates. And we can see the arguing everywhere, even in this post now. It will help CB2's friendly atmosphere if we keep all our arguing, facts, and opinions in seperate threads and out of other people's FS/WTB and other posts.
See you all around.
December 4 2005 9:31 AM EST
My only problem is that a group of people have come together to artificially lower the price of CB$. i call that bad for the game because the economy can be crippled if this kind of stuff slips into other items in the game. fact of the situation is if 1 group of people decide to pay 10 USD you think no problem but that group makes up 80% of all buyers.
this equates to Dell, Toshiba and a few other major computer chip buyers decide (computer chips which had sold for 100 dollars) are now worth 75 dollars. Sony is not in this group but since they are the only ones buying at 100 dollars once they stop buying chips the price is forced down by the coalition of buyers.
is this a good thing? personally i see it as price fixing but hey what do i know :)
December 4 2005 11:04 AM EST
Let's start a union for cb2 sellers and band together to fight against low prices :p
Also, we need to start fining those people who keep hijacking threads with their useless comments. :p
December 4 2005 12:19 PM EST
I used to remember campers saying the economy will be crippled now that camping is gone.
Now the same people are saying the economy will again be crippled if the price of cb2 goes down.
The computer chip analogy is not appropriate since the computer chip makers spend a certain amount of money in raw resources and salary to their employees to justify a price for their chips. However, there is not that in cb2, well just a person time.
But, I will agree, that when it clearly states "this is the minimum I will take" one should not post a lower amount. But at the same time, please do not post in the same thread "why wont my cb2 sell" or "doesnt anyone want this cb2" or "looking still" and except no one to offer a lower price trying to get a good deal for themselves.
And I will agree and promise never to again, post commentary on the price of cb2 or other items that people are trying to sell. I hope everyone will do the same.
December 4 2005 1:17 PM EST
I agree with Ranger on this one totally. Camper tended to control the market before with withholding rare items which force USD buyer paid tons of money for what's worth. Now that market is gone. Rares is not really rares anymore. And NUB is flooding the auction with NUB's money. While us, the veteran player is still making the same amount of cb2. Hence, the only rare left in the game now is cb2 money, which control by--sorry to say this--not ex-camper but NUB players. Moreover, the majority of NUB players tend to sell for USD desperately that simply leads or shift the power of controlling this rare market to USD buyer. Therefore, one can cry me a river, but I am glad to see that NUB's money is put where it is really worth.
USD to CB
cb1 to cb2
Now, i could sell 7 mil and get much more than $10 out of it, and then go sell it for cb2and get 2.1 mil where as i trade it straight from cb1 to cb2, i'd only get a whopping 1 mil. Something to me there sound like cb2 is a tad bit low...
December 4 2005 7:33 PM EST
Ranger, I commend your on your response, taking a step back and acknowledging you'd stop bidding below the min bid.
Anyways, I agree with the 6 points. Thanks Vaynard.
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