New cooldown development proposal (in General)


QBPixel Sage January 15 2006 2:41 AM EST

Hey all,

As most of you know, the cooldown has been an issue, to the point where Jonathan made a poll to have players vote on it. However, I have a new proposal that would combine with the cooldown.

Testing mode. If someone wants to change strategies, they turn on this mode. While this mode is on, the player can change around the equipment all they want without any cooldown being taken into effect. However, battles will only grant 1/2 of normal exp and money (and maybe even no clan points). After the player is satisfied with the new equipment (or old if nothing ends up changing), all equipment that was unequipped takes on a 12 or 24 hour cooldown.

I'm only throwing up this idea. It may be half-baked, so I want ya'll to bake it til its ready to eat.

PirateKing January 15 2006 9:00 AM EST

It sounds reasonable to me. But then, my opinion is not the one that really matters here.

Blackheart January 15 2006 9:25 AM EST

no. the cooldown is a bad idea period trash it all together

bartjan January 15 2006 10:01 AM EST

Blackheart: without the cooldown there is a loophole in the NW=PR system that needs to be fixed somehow for NW=PR to work as intended.
Removing the NW=PR link is also not a real option, as that would break NCB and NUB, amongst other things.

Blackheart January 15 2006 10:21 AM EST

so...fix the loophole maybe?

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] January 15 2006 10:49 AM EST

That is what the cooldown does Blackheart, it fixes the loophole.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 15 2006 10:58 AM EST

the loophole being that people can have defensive equipment?
I still don't see the problem with this. We had defensive arrows for ever on cb1...
if the higher NW penalty had been slightly more extreme, maybe you might have seen defensive weapons and AC back in the day as well.

rewards here are hard enough to earn with nw-pr, stop penalizing the few folks who actually have good stuff...please.

QBPixel Sage January 15 2006 12:30 PM EST

Soooo I had maybe one or two responses to my proposal. Any more?

bartjan January 15 2006 12:50 PM EST

I happen to have a fairly large JFK and a few other high NW items on my char. What if I decide to NCB and use that new char for my clan?
I'll do my BA using normal sized equipment, but when I'm out of BA I'll equip the JFK and other items and laugh at all that try to farm me.
Why should I have this advantage over someone who doesn't have access to huge amounts of NW, for example a new player?

There are good reasons for why things like Cooldown, NW=PR and NUB are in CB2. They are not perfect, but simply removing them because of some minor imperfections is not the answer.

Adminedyit [Superheros] January 15 2006 12:56 PM EST

this is my humble suggestion just tweak what is already in place open the window a little longer than the five minutes it is now, no interminion transfers should incur a cool down since it doesn't effect PR. Maybe a fight limit instead of a time limit before the cooldown takes effect.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 15 2006 1:09 PM EST

I personally don't see why you shouldn't be able to equip defensive stuff...you paid for it, why shouldn't you be able to use it.

bartjan January 15 2006 1:10 PM EST

Pixel: how does your proposal stop the use of high NW as an anti-farm system (which the cooldown tries to prevent)?

Let's assume your proposal is implemented. I am getting sleepy, it's time to go to bed. I'll do my last few battles, then enable this testing mode and equip my anti-farm gear. The following morning, the "test" is over. Of course, I'm still undecided on the outcome of my test; I may have to repeat it next night ;)

QBRanger January 15 2006 1:11 PM EST

I agree completely with Novice. If you have the stuff, why not be able to equip it.

All throughout history, in battle, the equipment your soldiers (in this case minions) eqiupped depended on whether you were attacking or defending.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 15 2006 1:18 PM EST

If we really don't want people equipping defensive equipment, why do we still have seeker and slayer ammo? I can't believe people are using them for offensive fighting...

This seems mostly like a clan point issue, with people doing whatever they can to prevent being farmed, I found this to be a nifty part of my cb1 experience, having a huge set of named Slayer or seeker ammo...

Mikel January 15 2006 1:42 PM EST

I think the cool down should be thrown out the window. If you paid for the gear, then you should be able to use it any way you want to.
All this is doing is making the game tougher than it already is. We had already played the game what 8-9 months and there was no real complaints that I know of other than one incident. Most people had come to accept that you could equip Seekers/Slayers for defense. What is the difference if it's armor or another weapon? There's a work around for the arrow/bolts thing that totally negates this, so I think they whole thing is pointless, since a mage can't farm a tank with seekers equiped.

The only people that seem to complain the loudest is those that don't have the gear to pull this off effectively.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] January 15 2006 2:00 PM EST

So we should benefit those that already have lots of cash and use USD even more than normal Mikel and novice?
I see this as being fair to those who can't pour all of their USD into a game for 2 sets of equipment that they can keep swapping over.
Jon doesn't want big USD spenders having more of an advantage than they should get since he doesn't really like it being used anyway and I'm pretty sure most of us who haven't got huge disposable incomes think that what you have just said is the most horrendously stupid argument against the cooldown period.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 15 2006 2:04 PM EST

If Jon doesn't want $US used, why not eliminate player to player transfers instead?
Set up a rentals type system for forging, and viola, problem solved.

It isn't USD he's trying to cripple here, it's people fighting with a set that gives them good rewards, and defending with one that wouldn't. The cash has already been spent (no matter where it came from) and it's my opinion that people who have the equipment should be allowed to use it with as few restrictions as possible. It's just not as fun without rares, don't kill the fun for the last 5 people who actually use em.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] January 15 2006 2:13 PM EST

There are so many more (and better) arguments in favour of the cooldown than against it.
The only ones I have seen against it are:
We bought it, let us swap whenever we like (worst argument in the world)
NUB's are having problems understanding and getting used to it (they already have the 'off-time' in which they should be learning enough already)
And the one you've just mentioned novice (you can use rares, just don't keep trying to swap between all your low NW and high NW rares).

Then we have the for sides:
helps NUBs (and everyone actually) so they don't keep coming against anti farming setups while characters aren't fighting.
Combats USD advantages without having to go as drastic as removing player to player transfers (if we did that those who have already forked out USD will gain an even bigger advantage as nobody else can then)
Even 5 minutes is enough for quick testing, just unequip and re-equip then fight within 4 minutes which in my opinion is more than manageable.

PirateKing January 15 2006 2:15 PM EST

"...It's just not as fun without rares, don't kill the fun for the last 5 people who actually use em."


"It's just not as fun [for myself] without rares...... "

I added that little correction. Please don't presume to tell me what is "fun". Thanks.

AdminG Beee January 15 2006 2:20 PM EST

{cb1}novice, 1:09 PM EST
I personally don't see why you shouldn't be able to equip defensive stuff...you paid for it, why shouldn't you be able to use it.

I've not really seen a good argument against this.
If you have the ability to equip a defensive strat that works when you're not fighting and it causes problems for the people who normally attack you, then so what, you're doing something right.

To say that a player shouldn't have an advantage over someone else simply because they have access to huge amounts of NW is flawed in my opinion. You will only ever have huge amounts of NW if you've earned it. If you've earned it you should be entitled to use it. No ?

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] January 15 2006 2:26 PM EST

The flaw to that G is that if you earned it from USD from your job you haven't earned it in the game.
Why should people who can't work for whatever reason or are on just enough to get by and get what they can here by actually earning it through gameplay have to be hugely disadvantaged to that?
There is one way of "earning" it, then there is actually earning it the proper way, I wouldn't mind seeing 2 completely different sections to CB2, one for those who aren't spending USD and as soon as anyone wants to use it (for anything other than supportership and supporter items) they need to transfer their character over.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] January 15 2006 2:27 PM EST

I just prefer not to have to inspect every character on my list before I fight them. Keep the cool down.

TrueDevil [AAA] January 15 2006 2:28 PM EST

Some other solution:
1. Make the cooldown period to 10 or 15 mins. Just like how we have 2 mins for bot checks, I mean surely bot checks can be done under 30 secs unless your ISP is messed up or have a slow connection like me but we have it anyway, 2 mins for botchecks. 10 or 15 mins for cooldown period is perfect IMO.

2. What is the real purpose of the cooldown period ? Is it only for clanners ? Maybe it should only be applied to clanners. Because I really can't see it being abused if you're not in clan.

I, myself have a mage team, so I shouldn't care about it, the cooldown period is actually helping me because I never change equipment but still restriction just made me feel uncomfortable.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] January 15 2006 2:33 PM EST

Devil, it can be abused by anybody as a high NW defensive strat can give you lots of free rewards for winning, the only reason you wouldn't use it while fighting is because of poor rewards but while defending any rewards are everything.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 15 2006 2:34 PM EST

TD makes a point I forgot to make, this is clan fighting issue more than anything.

I benefit greatly from the cooldown period, without it I really would be in for some hard times clanfighting. Which is exactly how it should be! I shouldn't be able to take a 0 NW team and fight in the top clans, period.

AdminG Beee January 15 2006 2:36 PM EST

Zog, that takes us onto a whole different argument and prolly not one for this thread.
Cap the items you can equip based on MPR and that will stop the uber NW issues we are sure to see more and more as the game matures. Anyway, I digress...

I remain unconvinced (although open to a change of opinion) based on the argument I've seen so far with regards to keeping the cooldown.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] January 15 2006 2:42 PM EST

Give me 15 minutes instead of 5! I'll definitely have time to go back to switching between my RoE and tragically-named Kano-san. The current five minutes is already long enough to make simple switches with no penalty -- more time just means time enough to make more complicated changes and still stay within the "window" allotted.

As for needing a "good" or "better" argument: if you don't have an opinion related to the needs of your own team, then you are on the "it's Jon's game" side, aren't you? Only those who want to go back to doing other than what Jon intends have a stake here, right?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 15 2006 2:45 PM EST

*watches his brain fizzle trying to parse Bast's last sentence*

Mikel January 15 2006 3:46 PM EST

Ok Zog, here's another angle, hopefully one that you can appreciate.
This is a game of strategy. There are offensive and defensive strategies to this game, based on using your item(s) properly. The more restrictions there is, the less enjoyable it is for those that have worked their tails off.

Mikel January 15 2006 3:56 PM EST

On another note, when you say those that earned it, are you dismissing those that get a free ride on the NUB or the NCB? as well as those that paid usd for what they have?

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] January 15 2006 3:56 PM EST


Or:

This is a game of strategy, part of which is deciding what ratio of offense to defense you will use for your team, as opposed to having one strategy for each, the balance of which & choices you make affect your fightlist and on whose fightlist you find yourself. (no matter how hard you think you work)

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] January 15 2006 3:59 PM EST

It's not work or a job for Bast, just what she does when she is supposed to be working ;)

{CB1}Bio January 15 2006 4:16 PM EST

Pixel...this is an insult to you for everyone to be discussing such irrelivant matters on your thread. This is a courtesy post...please you guys stick on the subject that this thread is on.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 15 2006 7:52 PM EST

Subject? *waves in confusion from behind massive wall of flame*

QBPixel Sage January 18 2006 1:18 AM EST

Bartjan... what if we increase the penalties during the testing period?

Half exp and half money. Not only do you not gain clanpoints, but you can lose clanpoints, and you lose twice as much as your normally would, from losing when attacking and losing when being attacked. That will encourage people to use testing mode only when necessary.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] January 18 2006 2:14 AM EST

How are the above penalties all that different from those one faces naturally now, if one "tests" other set-ups and can't put one's gear back on for 8-hrs.? Isn't the complaint, barring "I bought it, so I'm entitled!", that being able to play around with your stuff should be penalty free?

QBPixel Sage January 18 2006 2:24 AM EST

Its an addition to the cooldown. After testing period is down, cooldown will be in effect for 24 hours. My main complaint along with others is that the current setup of cooldown is that I can't test new equipment easily without having to work around the 5 minute period. Testing mode would allow a user to really test equipment, yet the penalties should be set just right so a person wouldn't stay in testing mode too long, but only as long as it needs to be.

maulaxe January 18 2006 2:56 AM EST

***********
NEW IDEA
***********

instead of not being able to re-equip, make the penalty be not gaining rewards for defensive wins. this should include clanpoints.

if you mess around with your gear, you should not get correct rewards for at least 1 full BA refresh.

QBPixel Sage January 18 2006 3:05 AM EST

maulaxe, the things is people can still smack on armor to keep others from gaining clanpoints from them.

Bob wears normal armor to burn 500+ BA. Before sleeping, Bob wears defense armor. Now others can't gain clan points from Bob because they can't kill Bob. The others start to cry.

However, the cool down doesn't prevent this either, if the person who sleeps sleeps for 8+ hours. Easy dodging. However, those who want to test new equipment have trouble with the five minute window.

My proposal allows a user to use a testing mode to test new equipment. The penalties for the testing mode encourages users to only use the mode when testing. Maybe testing mode could last at most for 1 hour, and only be turned on once ever 24 hours. When testing mode is turned off, a 24 hour cool down will be in effect.

Testing mode pentalties:
Half exp and money
No clan point gain
Lose double clan points from defeats

Phrede January 18 2006 10:02 AM EST

Surely the point of this game is working out strats that suit certain battles. It is clear that there are two distinct types of battle fought - those against bif DD mages and those against Tanks. You can (if your big enough - I'm not) have a start that sorta fits both but certainly in my situation I would be able to fight both types by changing armour on a couple of my chars (you know swapping a MgS for a mS things like that). Its not critical - I can live with it but to me it goes against the grain a little that you cant make use of gear correctly.
But what do I know :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 18 2006 10:49 AM EST

Bast,

"Or:

This is a game of strategy, part of which is deciding what ratio of offense to defense you will use for your team, as opposed to having one strategy for each, the balance of which & choices you make affect your fightlist and on whose fightlist you find yourself. (no matter how hard you think you work)"

Wouldn't it be more strategic (and therefore better for the game) to have people able to work out two seperate types of strategy than one? If someone want's to go to the expesne of amassing and funding a second set of gear to realise a second type of strategy, should we not support this rather than deny people the opportuity?

If they want too of course, me, I'm too lazy for all that. I couldn't even be bothered to equip defensive arrows before the cooldown was introduced! ;)

You can't beat a defensively equipped target, wait until they come on line. Another strategic element to the game. :)

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] January 18 2006 11:00 AM EST

"Wouldn't it be more strategic (and therefore better for the game) to have people able to work out two separate types of strategy than one?"

Uh, no. (Long version: Rock/Paper/Scissors would be soooo much more fun for me if I always get to be Rock _and_ Scissors.)

"If someone wants to go to the expense of amassing and funding a second set of gear to realize a second type of strategy, should we not support this rather than deny people the opportunity?"

Uh, no. (Long version: see above.)

*Keeping it pithy for the elderly!*
*How did you get all those errors past the spellchecker? I had to make corrections to quote you!*

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 18 2006 12:17 PM EST

Ouch Bast, that was below the belt!

Well, me and the spellchecker have an arrangement, just ask the Forge Dwarf! ;)

Uh, no. (Long version: Rock/Paper/Scissors would be soooo much more fun for me if I always get to be Rock _and_ Scissors.)

You don't get to be Rock *and* Scissors always. You can be both, but not at the same time. So you're only Rock for the 10 mins it takes you burn your BA, that's for your opponents to exploit.

House January 25 2006 11:07 PM EST

cooldown should NOT effect ammo....

Ox [StephenMelinda Gates Fund] January 25 2006 11:26 PM EST

Everyone just cool down!








Sorry I had to do it, one does not just leave a PUN to die.
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