Could UC be broken? (in General)

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] February 23 2006 3:36 AM EST

The more I look at Unarmed Combat and how it is affecting things, the more I believe that the system has a glitch somewhere. Here is why.

I fight the A-Team on occassion. Good team by Independenz. Sometimes I win, sometimes I stalemate against him. I notice also that he hits me in ranged somewhat often, and this is bugging me. For example, in the battle example I am going to use, he hits for 2 out of 2 shots in ranged. What is so weird about this you ask?

First, DX difference. Mine is 770k, his is 353,936. He has no Haste or EC either. We both use AXBows, his is An Assassin's Crossbow [4x46] (+58). I have DBs that are at +70. Despite a DX advantage of 446,064 and an additional presumed 12% reduction from his DX from the extra DB points I have, he still hits me twice in ranged. So with effectively a +0 weapon and, if my math is right, 458,536 less DX, he often never misses. And that just does not seem right to me.

Side notes:
*Note I was only 4 for 18 swings at BA as well.
*Note is he did drain my DX twice as well, and I drained his on my one connecting shot.
*Note he stalemates me around 23% of the time (this is only out of 14 battles though)
*After further battles, this ranged round appears to be a fluke. In fact, he goes 0 for 2 shots most rounds and goes 1 for 2 shots I would estimate a quarter of the time. Crazy odds :S

Next, I find melee to be much stranger than the random ranged occurrance. Here are my hits / total swings against the minion B.A. as I have logged them:

That is some good dodging there! It does not matter if my Axbow hits and drains him once or even twice as well, he always basically dodges at least 65% of the time, minimum! And again, this is typically with him having at least 400k less DX than me, and that number is MUCH greater if my Axbow connects a time or two! And remember my BoNE is +67.

My theories:
Here is the part I am sure you were waiting for. I believe that UC is broken and works differently than described by Jon. These are the only guesses I can make as what seems to be happening:
*UC grants too much Evasion and thus extra Defensive DX. Maybe it is doing more than the 1/3 its level that it was set to be. Maybe it is after item bonuses and not before, like I had recently thought I read was the way it is.
*Could UC be granting defensive DX equal to the UC amount? This would certainly explain the super-human dodging ability that UC minions now possess.
*Maybe the 2-H weapon attack chance nerf was much more severe than I anticipated. Perhaps too much? Of course, why is this only showing up against UC then?

And maybe I'm just missing something, but this all feels out of wack to me. The numbers, at least that I can see, are completely contradictory to the outcomes. Someone please enlighten me! I want to know before I go!

QBJohnnywas February 23 2006 3:45 AM EST

Vaynard, UC does 2/3 it's level in ranged.

There are several Axbow users in my fightlists. And when they actually hit me the dex loss is actually a lot lower than I thought it would be. Shade, for instance may hit me twice in ranged. But I only lose about 20k in dex. Maybe it's the Axbow that is broken?!?!?

But I would say that wouldn't I?! ;)

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] February 23 2006 3:52 AM EST

Johnnywas: here is my main point, in a nutshell. After describing that ranged round, I repeat the experiment and observe that him hitting twice was a fluke of the odds. Then I describe how I find it odd still that I miss so much in melee. I find nothing odd with, and actually knew, that UC gives 2/3 Evasion in ranged. Besides, I still hit him in ranged quite often- just not melee???

Although he does raise a good point... perhaps the 2/3 Evasion level granted in ranged does not in fact reduce when you get to melee? That also could explain things I suppose.

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] February 23 2006 4:10 AM EST

One last little thing: it saddens me to see yet another example of UC and its power. After inspecting the fight log of the character The Artful Dodger, belonging to Johnnywas (hi again Johnny!) This extremely effective single ToA UC tank is able to take down my Stalker no sweat, but much more surprisingly he demolishes Failure, Shadowsparkle's massive ToE tank, 100% of the time. Failure's MH is only +64, but he has a massive DX of 1,052,283 compared to 589,670 DX on The Artful Dodger.

I guess the days where having a vast DX advantage meant you had an advantage are over. Unless you believe my theory that UC is broken is true.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 23 2006 4:15 AM EST

Vaynard. UC grants defensive Dex equal to 2/3 it's level in ranged and 1/3 in Melee.

Johnny has about 1Mil naturally trained into UC (before items). That gives him and extra 666K Defensive Dex in Ranged on top of his ToA Dex plus 333K in melee.

As for hitting more, maybe the dex being granted is being applied offensively as well... Or it's extra PTH from his ToA.

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] February 23 2006 4:24 AM EST

For the third time: the example's ranged happenings turned out to be a very uncommon event- only happened that one time and never repeated in the next dozen battles. AND we are talking about his hitting me, NOT vice versa. Thus, I DO NOT CARE THAT YES UC GIVES 2/3 EVASION IN RANGED. Hope that clears things up. If not, I suppose I'll just explain it a FOURTH time.

GL: I suppose you are right that The Artful Dodger gets about 333k evasion and defensive DX against Failure. But that still leaves a gap of 100-200k DX advantage Failure has. And yet he loses- I presume missing a lot. I suppose I should ask him about it though.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 23 2006 4:28 AM EST

More info.

Failure; Dex: 1,052,283

Artful Dodger: Dex: 589,670 UC: 1,125,430 Effect after items (101?)

This gives a ranged Defensive Dex total of 589,670 + 750,286 = 1,339,956. nearly 300K higher than Failure. With an Evasion of 750K That's what, (60) ?

In Melee it's 589,670 + 375,143 = 964,813 defensive dex with Evasion of level 375,143 (50? Maybe). That's very close!

Add to that Johnn is using a [x102] (+101) weapon and ouch!

Treat UC like a spell, pump loads of XP into it!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 23 2006 4:30 AM EST

A +64 MH isn't coming close, plus the additional pth from Johnny's ToA. He must be nearing +200 on his melee weapon.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 23 2006 4:31 AM EST

Oh, and I doubt defensive dex from evasion is lowred by an AXBow. That might help explain your fights.

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] February 23 2006 4:36 AM EST

Good point GL. And sorry, it is late. As you presented them, without massive rounding like I did (lol, sorry its late and I'm tired), Failure only has 87470 extra DX and a weapon that most like ends up being between +0 and +10 I would wager. I am still interested in how often he hits though- because I would still think it should be 50% or so, in melee mind you. He definitely shouldn't be hitting in ranged.

Shadowsparkle [Jago] February 23 2006 4:43 AM EST

Like I said in CM, with my own MH +80 I was able to hit him 3 or 4 times per fight, which was enough to kill him, but with that rented MH +64 I just hit the air.

QBJohnnywas February 23 2006 4:44 AM EST

Currently, due to a lower power Morg, Failure is not hitting me at all. 100% of the time. But, as Gl says, I have over a million level UC pre bonus and well over 2 mill with bonuses. My UC weapon is x104 +104.

However When Shadowsparkle has his normal Morg I get hit a few times in melee. Which is guaranteed to flatten me like a bug!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 23 2006 4:45 AM EST

I'm guessing how much an Evasion of level 375,143 gives. I know 100K is (40/41), but just not sure what 375K would give. Maybe it's (64+) which would account for the rented MH not hitting.

QBJohnnywas February 23 2006 4:46 AM EST

Oh by the way....the ELB I'm renting is only icing on the cake. And a means to take out a few people when they attack me. My fightlist is completely beatable without it.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 23 2006 4:46 AM EST

Wow! That's massive after HG! And UC (104) is x105 +104! ;)

QBJohnnywas February 23 2006 4:48 AM EST

Oh, 105? Oh yeah. Old age melting the mind.

x105. Nice!

QBJohnnywas February 23 2006 5:02 AM EST

1 last point. My total UC level is 2.3 mill. I don't find it suprising that it is effective. If it was a FB or CoC at that level it would be a hell of lot more powerful and nobody would blink. They would expect power after that much investment of XP.


QBJohnnywas February 23 2006 5:04 AM EST

Still sucks against mage teams though....

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 23 2006 6:24 AM EST

Right, for Stalker versus the A-Team.

Stalker has Dex: 770,000 Evasion (from DB) (70).

B.A. has Ranged: Defensive Dex: 354,115 + 236,076 = 590,191 and Evasion of around (50)? I can't explain the ranged hits B.A. lands. (but it was a fluke...)

In Melee: Defensive Dex: 354,115 + 118,038 = 472,153 and an Evasion of around (41/42). You Bone is +67. Which after Evasion (if it is pth-50) that might not be enough to let you land pth based hits.

B.A. UC weapon is [x89] (+88), so after your DBs/Evasion you both have similar wepaon based pth.

All I can think is that his AXBow is being more effective as it drains your total Dexterity, where yours might only be draining his natural dex, possibly leaving him with an untouchable 118K Dex to dodge with.

How many hits does B.A. land on you in melee Vaynard?

(Thanks to both Inde and Vaynard!)

IndependenZ February 23 2006 6:24 AM EST

About Vaynard's DX problem against my minion B.A.... I don't know what causes this, but maybe the defensive DX is calculated on UC after armor, like your first theory.

For example, my UC with all my armor on, is 1,228,921. 1/3rd of that would be 409,640. Without my armor, it's 274,508. Divide that by 3 and you get 91,503. You say you we are 450k DX apart and the UC is still landing hits. That pretty much equals out if my defensive DX is calculated with the pumped-up UC.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 23 2006 6:33 AM EST

I think I've got it! :D I missed the Gi on B.A.

The Gi gives equal Evasion to the Natural Evasion (before item bonuses) UC has, so that would be an additional 50+ in ranged and 41/42 in melee. I think we can say that this stacks additively with the Evasion from UC.

And that the left over Evasion would reduce Vaynards dex for attacking making the dex gap larger! :D

Gi's might be very worth using....

Unless it really is item/skill evasion stacking...

IndependenZ February 23 2006 6:41 AM EST

Am I missing something? Isn't the Gi supposed to give only 1/3rd of the pre-bonus UC, instead of just doubling that Evasion? At least that's what the Wiki says. :p

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 23 2006 7:14 AM EST

UC grants Evasion equal to 1/3 it's level (In melee). The Gi grants the same. :)

QBBarzooMonkey February 23 2006 8:40 AM EST

It's not broken! It's just.....

cool! :)

/me has been planning his new NCB strategy lately because all this attention is sure to attract a UC nerf :P

QBJohnnywas February 23 2006 8:48 AM EST

Shhh BM..maybe Jon isn't looking.....

PirateKing February 23 2006 9:07 AM EST

"Still sucks against mage teams though...."

Quoted for emphasis. Mage teams tear me up like no one's business yet I can rip apart tank teams easily.

Sukotto [lookingglas] February 23 2006 12:31 PM EST

paper -> UC teams
rock -> tank teams
scissors -> mage teams

Is that right?

QBBarzooMonkey February 23 2006 12:37 PM EST

Sukotto, that's perfect! :)

AdminShade February 23 2006 12:48 PM EST

do mage teams -> scissors

also beat UC teams -> paper ?

QBBarzooMonkey February 23 2006 12:51 PM EST

Yes :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 23 2006 1:38 PM EST

Paper is fine, rock is underpowered, nerf Scissors. ;)

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] February 23 2006 3:25 PM EST

Drat, my rock is deffective! Scissors keep destroying it! Not to mention now paper too!

chappy [Soup Ream] February 23 2006 3:32 PM EST

are you sure that's a rock and not a hollow plastic bolder that goes to your old MASK playset??

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] February 23 2006 3:33 PM EST

Is Combat GI supposed to really act like it is now? Let me get this straight...

UC tanks get evasion (as well as defensive dx) equal to 1/3 their UC level. This rises to 2/3 the UC in ranged. Also, they get an extra 1/3 evasion from their pre-item evasion.

This means a tank with a Combat GI and 600k trained UC will get 600k evasion and 600k defensive DX in ranged and 400k evasion and 400k defensive DX in melee?

Here is my new abbreviation: why don't we just start calling it DDX?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 23 2006 3:46 PM EST

"UC tanks get evasion (as well as defensive dx) equal to 1/3 their UC level. This rises to 2/3 the UC in ranged. Also, they get an extra 1/3 evasion from their pre-item evasion.

This means a tank with a Combat GI and 600k trained UC will get 600k evasion and 600k defensive DX in ranged and 400k evasion and 400k defensive DX in melee?"

For 600K UC + Gi I think its;

Ranged: 400K (xx) + 400K (xx) Evasion (could possibly be 800K (xx) instead of (xx) + (xx)) and 400K Defensive Dexteritiy

Melee: 200K (xx) + 200K (xx) Evasion (again could be 400K (xx) depending on how Gi stacks with skill) and 200K Defensive Dexterity.

DBs don't grant defensive dexterity with thier Evasion effects, so I doubt the Gi does. :)

QBBarzooMonkey February 23 2006 4:03 PM EST

All I really care at this point is that a year later, after millions and millions of XP and CB2 $ invested in him, the Sensei is really, really, really hard to hit in "physical" (not DD spell) combat. That means he is finally doing his job as I originally envisioned it :)

QBOddBird February 23 2006 10:49 PM EST

DBs don't *have* an evasion effect, GL. Just minus to PTH.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 24 2006 3:03 AM EST

;) Which is the Evasion 'effect'. DBs of +70 are like Evasion xxxx (70) without the defensive dexterity.
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