New Player Chat (in General)
February 23 2006 6:05 PM EST
Okay I am roughly 1 for 2 in new ideas. But I think this one should at least be read thoroughly before being thrown out. Heres the idea:
A new room called New Players (I know thats the title of a current room but the name can be changed of either room so bear with me). All new players when they first log on are sent to this room just like the current room new players. This room would be completely different from the current one though. I have noticed that the current new players room is filled with vets being normal players. I have nothing against this. I DO have a problem with people ignoring/ frightening/ or even insulting new players when they ask questions or not answering the questions. The whole point of the room was to help the new players. So basically heres one of two solutions IMO. Create the new room. Assign people to kind of walk the room and help answer the new players question. The number of people should be constant throughout the day and should never reach above a certain number ( this would keep down conversation not about the game or new players). But here is the main thing that would make this room a improvement on the current. A player who is not one of the people assigned to the room would not be allowed to enter (this of course does not apply to ops/ admins). I know this may seem harsh to some but I think it would greatly help for this to be done. Also if the new player room was dead ( i dont think it ever would be seeing the amount of new players we get) then a vet assigned to the room could leave as long as he kept his/ her eye on the room for new players.
There is of course another solution because the above one needs programming, new sets of rules for the chat, perhaps new ops, and lots of other things and I want to give an alternative to it.
Note: I do believe the above way would work better, especially in the long run, but the below way would work to.
Basically the second solution if for the stuff in the current new players to be stopped. If a person ignores, insults, or in any way makes a new player feel stupid (repeatedly especially) he/ she should be kicked from room. There are many players who find it fun to harass new players and thats got to stop. Also conversations should be halted if a new player has questions and could be answered.
This solution is more appealing but less effective. Many people (even ops, however evil they may be lol) have friends and do not like to kick them. Also its a delicate line to draw between helping, ignoring, hurting new players and this could lead to heavy dispute.
But either way I hope one of these solutions is put into effect to help the new players of this game. If anyone has any editing/ other suggestions please post them. By the way, any post made along the lines of "get over it its fine the way it is" will be ignored because its simply not true anymore.
Thank you for your time.
February 23 2006 6:08 PM EST
we have a room like that already GW, it's called "carnage" but otherwise the idea sounds ok. :P
February 23 2006 6:08 PM EST
I DO have a problem with people ignoring/ frightening/ or even insulting new players
This should be dealt with with a simple /kick in the behinds of the frighteners.
And as for the idea, sounds good but will be a goal never able to be reached, there is no way to deny access to certain rooms other than kicking, which is something we (ops / admins) want to be done as little as possible.
but nevertheless, a bold and noble goal :)
Didn't Di accomplish this, in an earlier era, by simply banning everyone not-a-mentor-come-to-visit-a-mentee from New Players?
February 23 2006 6:09 PM EST
Then what about the second idea? The first I understand would be hard but you could just say its a rule only a authorized person can enter and if u you enter and your not you will be kicked without warning. This would achieve same thing.
February 23 2006 6:10 PM EST
Before my time Bast. Could you elaborate?
Yes Di did do the "help out or get out" push back when np was twice as big as carnage and only worked for a week.
She was an admin, spent a great deal of time in New Players shepherding the uninitiated through the early tough-going that is Carnage.
New Players was too full of people who had "graduated" but refused to move on with their lives. The people who just hang forever in New Players like those who don't want to leave high school because it's so _cool_. It was impossible to get a word in to the actual new people because chat was constantly scrolling with nonsense.
So, as an admin, she made a rule. No hanging out in NP just to carry on with your band of Stooges, when you and your whole band can go to Carnage. She didn't allow endless AFK hanging about, and "removed" anyone whom she felt was not there being "helpful". The room was reserved for new entrants and their mentors.
February 23 2006 6:17 PM EST
By the way. People abuse new players all the time. To this day I have never seen them be kicked or even told not to do it. Maybe everyone does it when Im not there but so far, not happened. So maybe the rule of treating new player fairly and using the room for its purpose could be enforced at the very least?
NP is for helping new people, and so carnage isn't full of questions about DCMs. I tend to go to new players and hang out, it's always got more action than carnage and is normally fun. I also tend to answer any question in the channel I can...I am not a mentor, nor do I plan on returning to the mentor system. I think I should be able to enter NP...thoughts?
February 23 2006 6:20 PM EST
Okay I think I should restate this. People who want to help will just be assigned to help the new room. If you like new players and help them then it will be obvious to let you in the room. The rule would be only enforced against those who aren't there just for the new players.
Love how you keep restating and with more attitude. ;) Don't think you want to here this but most of the mean ppl(yes he doesn't just mean me) help more than you. Deal with it.
February 23 2006 6:30 PM EST
I cant really think of a response to that. But here it goes I guess. I do not want to be apart of it necessarily. This was an idea to help new players. I do not care who gets in if they help them.
If ever you get the chance to name your ToA, put down as "These are my OP Powers!" and make us all happy.
I will just state that there isnt any problems with the current NP. To be nice i will simply leave it at that.
(Did i not tell you guys he is after op status? hehe)
February 23 2006 10:56 PM EST
I'd like to say that every time I'm IN the room, I notice people helping new players that ask for it. We don't force help on them, but every time I see a new player with a question, I see a vet helping out. (This is part of the reason *for* New Players, no?)
Maybe chat's changed a ton in the last few days that I've been busy....but I don't notice such an enormous problem. BTW, I've kicked many a player who harassed someone new. Often kicking isn't even necessary, just telling them to stop is all it takes...
Just my two cents' worth. I don't think its in such an uproar as you think.
I force my opinions on them of course. ;)
Well, I may still be considered new enough not to be booted out by GW's rule (though I doubt it), but I would of course disagree. I think that I help new player quite a bit whenever I get the chance. I always check their strategies and offer as much advice as I can give. Now anyone who's ever been in New Players knows I talk. A lot. (I'm female, it can't be helped; hehe) Therefore, I think that this is wrong. I also see people booted all the time for inappropriate behavior, whatever the reason. The time old saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" comes to mind on this discussion.
Also, on a side note: I am from CB1 from awhile back and carnage is STILL intimidating to me. Whenever I go there I am afraid to talk because it is so quiet. I don't think they would appreciate having some of us in there at times....
February 24 2006 4:00 AM EST
You would need to allow mentors in there as well. In which I believe being a mentor, should have some sort of admin approval, or a test you need to pass .. something.
If you would like to see a conversation in Carnage, I would suggest attempting to start one. We can't laugh at Mem's antics indefinitely, you know.
February 24 2006 12:55 PM EST
Valiek I agree with that at the least. But you people all say that there is no problem with new player chat. Thats because you dont want to see that your friends keep going on with their conversations even when new players ask question. Yes people do help new players.... when there is nothing else going on. Very few take the oppurtunity to help when their already busy. Also Im not saying that the chat is complete garbage and no one helps. Im saying that there are many more players who DO NOT help then those that do. As for me wanting to be an op I seriously dont care and if every time I do or say anything its because thats what I want then why bother? But still maybe everyone believes the chat is fine but I just dont think it is. Something has to change with the new player schematics. So many new players quit so soon and not always because they just do not like the game. Maybe my suggestions aren't what needs to happen. But ignoring the problem will not make it stop. You can all go along saying how great it is but the fact is half the new players wont talk and the ones that do get in fights if they say something a vet doesn't like. Their kicked without knowing the rules (in some cases like the use of very bad language its understandable, but if a new player is kicked "in warning" and they dont know what they did wrong how does it help?). Something has to be done... with mentor system or chat.
March 13 2006 6:56 PM EST
I find it necessary to refresh people's minds on this thread due to the new poll. Give people another place to dicuss the poll, ideas, and opinions besides in the poll comment area.
March 13 2006 6:56 PM EST
Plain and simple, things are not that bad, I still manage to both jibber senselessly and occasionally help someone in NP. I think further adjustments will only serve to discourage the already weak use of chat. If someone is being rude, the ops are more than capable. If someone has no business in NP, then let the ops clean up. I don't see making additional rooms, or limiting access to NP doing anything positive, Unless you consider cutting off our nose to spite our face good. How lame would it be if instead of a one dead lame corpse of a chat room, we had two.
March 13 2006 7:14 PM EST
First of all I rarely, and I mean RARELY, see op's kick for being rude to new players. Maybe to each other but not to new players. Something should be changed one way or the other. I am very glad Jon decided to at least look into it. Even if he does not change anything it will show he cares at least. Though of course I never had any doubts about our dear old Jon ;)
So is your contention that the number of people in NP is too much?
Or are you just trying to point out that new players are having a hard time getting help with all the random chat splatter in NP?
If people aren't finding help in chat, then it's the mentor system that needs help, people should have an established channel for getting questions answered, if for some reason they don't have a mentor, or their mentor isn't around that NP comes into play. It has always been my opinion that no matter how far off the "topic" of NP we may be at any given moment, there was never
a point where we didn't have the time to explain what a DCM was, and why you should never ever ever buy one.
March 13 2006 7:28 PM EST
The problem is that NP is SUPPOSED to be that channel between mentors and mentees. I have often lost NP questions in the flow of text even when looking for them. Makes life difficult on the mentors.
So you do in effect want a dead chat room. One specifically used only for Q and A?
March 13 2006 7:45 PM EST
Novice....it's like carnage without the q and a!!!
March 13 2006 7:45 PM EST
No. No one ever said that a new room the chatting would be banned. It would just be used primarily (and the purpose of the room would be) to help new players. I doubt a op would kick someone for talking if there are no new players as long as the vets dropped it when a new player had a question. Besides carnage is not dead just the more talkative people in chat go to new players out of habbit.
GW: carnage is dead, 95% of the time there is little to no activity, people don't even really sign on to carnage looking to chat. It seems mostly like a place to idle your cb window for the day.
Enforce the existing rules before making up new ones, and if the rules
for NP have been let lapse or forgotten, gets the ops together and figure
out what they should be. Insanely confusing polls, and ranty discussions are not going to solve this "problem" which as far as I can tell amounts to GW being afraid that someone might be rude to someone.
I consider it a kindness and a favor to offer advice beyond "RTFW" (Read the Fantastic Wiki) or "Help! it's whats for dinner!". Chat is for chatting, mentor your nub in pm.
March 13 2006 8:10 PM EST
I think novice hit it on the head with that answer. Chat is for Chat and when a new player asks a question in chat 4 or 5 people will respond to it. If you don't see this GW its because you're in and out of the room constantly the whole time your logged on to CB2.
March 13 2006 8:20 PM EST
"I am very glad Jon decided to at least look into it"
the poll is by G Beee, guess you didn't see that either.
"GW: carnage is dead, 95% of the time there is little to no activity, people don't even really sign on to carnage looking to chat. It seems mostly like a place to idle your cb window for the day. "
Do you even know why carnage chat is quiet so often? It is actually because so many people who graduated there decided to go back and chat over the new players instead.
I'm not against people talking in New Players but if you want full blown conversations use the correct rooms so if a new player does have a question they aren't forced to wait for their mentor or desperately hope their question isn't missed because I know my 5 lines of chat scrolls too quickly for me to see when I'm in there.
March 14 2006 4:04 PM EST
G Beee= mini Jon IMO. But I would thank you novice you stop saying this is all about me. If I was the only one who thought there was a problem none of this would be going on. Secondly edyit to say I log in and out of NP chat in unfair as I only been doing that VERY recently and only to stop getting in fight in chat... which I think is working. But there is a "problem in NP chat". Carnage is for CHATTING, New Players is to help new players. Alot of you seem to get the two things confused.
March 14 2006 4:14 PM EST
Edyit you are wrong. in NP i have seen countless times where a new player asks a question and has to repeat himself 2 or 3 times before someone even notices him and at times i'm the person who answers so i might be the only person who even saw it.
So are you seriously suggesting a room in which no chatting takes place outside of new users asking questions and mentors answering them?
If so I'm having a hard time figuring out who you are going to get to staff this room? I love helping new folks, it keeps things interesting for me and I really like the strat discussions that take place in NP. I however will not be signing up to be a mentor, I don't spend enough time in chat to make it worthwhile. With the way things are now I am able to sign on to chat, join new players, say hello to the folks I know and join in the fray, which is more often than not on topic and related to things a new player needs to hear. If a new user finds themselves unable to ask a question in new players, we also have a mentor system, a help section and forums. There isn't anything you can do to new players to make it easier to ask questions that isn't going to kill the activity
in the channel that makes it worth being in.
March 14 2006 4:24 PM EST
I do have a small correction to make though to the "problem" with NP chat. Alot of new players DO ask in PM to active players questions. I know I am asked for advice at least twice a day and I know alot of other players are too. Downside to this though, and the feeling that they have to ask in PM, is that is makes the new players less commmunity oriented and also decreases the amount of advice they get. Also though I still think something should be done. Oh and I put it in the comments under poll but I want to let you all know this. If you DO NOT like the options the poll gives... DONT VOTE!!! DUH.
I voted option 2 in the poll, I don't think someone who actually wants help is going to find it se difficult they give up, with no less than 4 different ways to go about getting help (Help, mentors, np, forums), it seems silly to accomodate the few folks too slow to catch on. I also think that asking particular folks in pm for advice does a lot for building a community, the connections between new players and vets forged in pm are invaluable.
March 14 2006 4:37 PM EST
Oh great ties. A new player who has to completely rely on one player because its the only person they know. Yes thats productive. But this really is all beside the point. There are alot of problems with new player chat and it comes down to vets and new players. All the people (well most) who played CB1 get an easier time of it. They can stretch the rules farther because people assume they "know" the rules and won't break them. Alot of the op's assume that the only ones who DO break the rules are people they dont know as well. Ex: new players. Sorry but NP chat in unfair and unhelpful the new players.
di tried this and look what happened....end of story
March 14 2006 5:18 PM EST
yes but Di used very harsh ways to go about it. I was not even talking of something as extreme as talk and /kick. And Bast you going to have to say things clearly. I am an idiot and need things used in words with only one syllable and no hidden meanings. I thought this was known about me...
Bast was replying to chadders comment, as if to suggest that
Di's solution was effective up until the demise of cb1...
Others have mentioned that Di's attempt at curtailing the number
of people in NP not helping caused NP to become a ghost town.
Di wasn't evening attempting to go as far as you've suggested GW, the rules
as I understood them were rather simple. If an op saw a person idling in np without helping people, they were kicked. No restriction on chatting, no forced help, no silly second rooms. Just simple enforcment of simple rules, I don't think
you're going to get better results trying to change the chat landscape entirely.
March 14 2006 5:31 PM EST
Fine. You know what just go ahead and go on like this. Ignore the problems. CB2 wont continue if people can't play. No one is going to pay supportership for log on if everytime they do they get flooded back somewhere else. The main problem is that it seems no one is even considering the fact there may be a problem. You read the poll or the thread and dismissed it. Good job.
Fine, I'll admit that someone might have had trouble finding help, if you come up with a single idea to fix the problem that isn't going to nuke chat as we know it.
March 14 2006 5:36 PM EST
I can't and I know it. Any idea I come up will be rejected and searched for any tiny flaw. Admit it if someone else comes up with it they have a better chance. So let someone else post ideas to help the problem here. If I do it you just throw it away.
March 14 2006 6:39 PM EST
"Fine. You know what just go ahead and go on like this. Ignore the problems. CB2 wont continue if people can't play. "
O wow, you're right! I've never seen any new players signing up, and everyone's quitting! There are no active new players in the community like Hakai, Destitute Turnip, and MrWizard, and nobody can get any advice! The problems abound! /sarcasm
"No one is going to pay supportership for log on if everytime they do they get flooded back somewhere else. The main problem is that it seems no one is even considering the fact there may be a problem."
I considered that fact. The problem is that occasionally people talk too quickly and chat gets filled. Solution: No more keyboarding classes, so we all have to type with one finger at a time and while looking at the keyboard. BTW, I never paid supportership, I paid someone else to get it for me in CB2$. If they really like the game, they'll pay the money for that.
"You read the poll or the thread and dismissed it. Good job."
No offense to G_Beee, but the poll was, simply put, retarded. The options were to take your view or don't vote. That is absolutely ridiculous.
As for the thread.....well, it addresses a problem that is as old as people communicating. Just ask any man who tries to get in a conversation with two or more women - the words fly so fast you can hardly keep up. When you put 5 or 6 people actively chatting in the room, occasionally the conversation will be intense enough that lines are moving very quickly. Fact is, they get CMs about mentors, there is PM available, and most of the time their questions *ARE* seen in chat. If they aren't, they usually ask again, and it is seen the 2nd time around. There is no harm in having to ask twice.
Rant over and out.
March 14 2006 6:48 PM EST
"Sorry but NP chat in unfair and unhelpful the new players."
Did you mean like this?
<WolfSoul_(GW)> Gun I didn't write it to get published. Gun.... just
because like I said you are pathetic... doesn't mean you have to take
everything I do and insult it. But thanks you know. For showing how truly
worthless you are ;)
<drudge> wolf, no name calling please
<WolfSoul_(GW)> drudge why dont you tel him to not insult me?
<Timberwolf> His was a general comment, yours was a personal attack
March 14 2006 6:49 PM EST
I know quite a few new players who wont ask more then once before they get mad and give up. I do not blame them because first impressions matter. If they can't even get noticed in the room "NEW PLAYERS" how can they get noticed in the rest of the game?
March 14 2006 7:08 PM EST
I apologize for our imperfect record. We do miss a new player's request sometimes, but that simply means he should try the virtue known as "Patience". See, the universe doesn't revolve around you. Doesn't revolve around them. And as accomodating as we try to be, we aren't perfect, and we do occasionally miss their requests and/or questions.
Thing is, sometimes it'll take another try to get through. Multiple people chatting in the room are trying to get their questions/conversations noticed. You say this is the problem - if there was no conversation, we'd get everyone!
That is true. However, why would they stay if all the can do is ask questions? No convo, or off you go to the big people's room to have a conversation? We want them to join, yes, but we want them to stay!
New players is fine. Carnage is dead. Complain about it instead.
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