Camping Yea or Nay? (in General)


QBBarzooMonkey April 26 2006 11:30 AM EDT

This thread is posted as a public service, for Sefton And Sut to have a place for their inevitable flame war over the merits of camping, so that they don't flood SNK3R's contest thread. Go at it here, guys! :)

Maelstrom April 26 2006 11:50 AM EDT

Yea!

(Of course, this thread won't make a difference...)

QBsutekh137 April 26 2006 12:06 PM EDT

(I'll go ahead and repost here, then...my idea for a change to CB, and ensuing camping-discussion detonator text. *smile*):

-------------------------------------
Bring back:

1. Camping.
2. Then even better camping bots so that one person gets all the good stuff.
3. Campers then understand why camping should be removed.
4. Remove camping.
5. No longer have to hear about wanting camping back again.

This was psuedo-tongue-in-cheek just to give Sefton crap, but I really do have a hard time understanding how campers don't see confirmed acts of browser automation to land camped gear as a reason to remove camping. I have yet to hear an idea that could stop a browser automaton from "clicking" (or whatever scheme gets used for selection) faster on an item than a human.

It's kind of like the old adage about digital music -- as long as people can listen to the music (and still be able to pipe it around to other components), there will never be a way to completely stop music from being digitized (until the RIAA controls computers, cables, and all stereo equipment -- please visit EFF, people). Same for camping. If a human can select gear and buy it, a computer can do it faster (assuming they see it at the same time). The only thing computers cannot currently do in the game is bot checks. Unless Jonathan wants to create a random bot image next to each checkmark (performance prohibitive), I don't see how this can be fixed.

Also, if Jonathan DOES think of a way, it is my opinion that he would IMPLEMENT IT. Jonathan always, always, always defended camping. He never understood exactly why people did it (*smile*), but he kept the practice around until he could no longer think of a way to keep the bots out (and had proof that bots were in use). If Jonathan thought of a scheme to bring back camping that was:

- server-friendly.
- development friendly (i.e. programmable in less than several months).
- bot-unfriendly

then he would do it. Of that I am convinced. In summary, I don't understand why people keep asking for camping as if it is a package on the shelf that Jonathan is arbitrarily keeping from us.

Yeah, that's right, I want to start another flame war. *smile*

Abit April 26 2006 12:41 PM EDT

Nay!

At least until something changes.

I miss it and would love it to come back, but I am against any form of cheating.

I can remember in CB1 WAAAY back, a fellow camper told me about Mozilla features that made camping easier. There was supposedly ways to even make that easier. I never did get good at it. I had a rhythm and that's what did it for me. Several screens open at once, etc... I showed my methods to a few people and they had short hay days also.

By the time CB2 started I almost never got anything. I saw the stuff but never was able to buy it b4 someone else got it. I know there was many more campers, and the odds were against me, but I lost more buys in the first few weeks than I had ever lost in my whole career in CB1. I blamed it on the idea that I was not adapting and that my days were gone. I still visited the stores often but not as methodically, it was only luck at this point. There were bots, and far more widespread than proven.

Perhaps some of the people complaining about camping leaving can constructively come up w/ solutions to the bot issues. Perhaps, they can do something other than just lament.

Just give Jon the right ideas and he will bring it back. He's always been very strong in defense of camping. People used to go nuts cuz I controlled most of the rares for a short while. I had thousands of store hits a day before there were BA used. I was part of the reason BA usage was introduced.

CB is really not quite as fun w/o camping and not nearly as addictive. The rush of seeing a couple of rares in the store and your hands are so much slower than you mind, it really is a rush.

But CB goes on...

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] April 26 2006 12:48 PM EDT

Solution #532:

Bring back rare item spawns to store, but make price of item dependant on what the last few auctions for that item closed at. So, we can have a store, but it isn't so much "camping" as it is "shopping" when the price is set at a reasonable market level.

If a Mithril Chain Mail's going price is around 1.6 million, then when the store spawns this item, it sells for 1.6 million. Of course then its just a matter of super-rich people camping the store. :D

Maelstrom April 26 2006 1:18 PM EDT

"Of course then its just a matter of super-rich people camping the store."

...which is exactly what's happening now in auctions, but at least in auctions you know the item will stay there for a while, giving people a chance to outbid those with lots of spare cash.

I don't think selling rares in store for market value will solve anything.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] April 26 2006 1:47 PM EDT

Turn store into image with imagemap for purchase.

Poof no more browser automation.

Run the "rares" version of the store as a seperate java based application or even a Firefox extension. I would much rather be required to use a certain browser to camp versus no camping.

Poof no more browser automation

Insert random alpha numeric characters into all the items in the store, now there is no way to filter in or out and any items as they are no longer constants.

Poof no more browser automation

Insert a small random delay into the code for purchase for any purchase attempt that occurs in less than X amount of time.

Easy to do, does not really rule out automation, but if they fail more often than not, then well they will stop trying.

So there you go Joe, pick a solution any solution :)

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] April 26 2006 1:49 PM EDT

P.S. any version that you do not like because it will interfere with normal store purchases, simply run two interfaces, one that deal with all item spawns, and one that deals with only common item spawns.

QBsutekh137 April 26 2006 1:50 PM EDT

A bot-check scheme (goofy text) would work, but not bot-checks after the grab or bot checks on each selection click -- someone with a faster click would still get to the bot-check faster and still get the item, so someone with a computer clicking for them would still have the upper hand. ANY upper hand is unfair and unacceptable.

The only way is to make the selection itself bot-proof. As I said, if each item description were a goofy-looking graphic (goofy enough to make a computer too slow as compared to the human eye-ball), that would work. /me thinks that would be very server intensive, though. You have to remember -- in camping's prime, several campers would be doing THOUSANDS of store checks per day. That means several each second. Any operation that is done that often can't be converting several dozen pieces of text into wobbly letters and distributing them as graphics to everyone's browsers.

So, what are other ways to make the selections themselves unreadable to a computer (but readable by humans)? Browser automation these days is VERY powerful, so recall that any tags, numbers, or readable text related to each checkbox will make a bot be able to work. The selections have to have their related index back on the server completely hidden, and the visible item name has to be something a computer can't read.

Have at it!

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] April 26 2006 1:51 PM EDT

P.S.S. I think Jon likes the new non-camping CB2 ALMOST as much as you do Joe ;)

QBsutekh137 April 26 2006 2:00 PM EDT

Stop calling me by my name, John. *smile*

Image idea: server-intensive, I would guess. There is nothing faster that using standard HTML. Converting all of that an image...and how would you select an item? Multiple items?
Separate rares store that disallows automation (is that even possible? Help me out automaters...): development intensive? You really expect Jonathan to create a separate interface for campers? Or for people to use more than one BA to check the normal store and the "rares" store? Where would rare ammo go in this idea?
Timing idea: wouldn't it kinda suck if a quick-reflexed person was under the threshold and forbidden because he/she looked like a bot? Controlling that threshold would be a very, very tricky business, with people getting angry on all sides of the equation.

Other Idea: When you click on an item, a messagebox with random letters comes up (not sure an automator can see popups?). You then have to type in those letters to buy the item. Problem: doesn't work well for buying multiple items, and is onerous for non-campers. And maybe automation can see those popups anyway...

My guess is that _any_ inconvenience for non-campers will get the idea instanty dismissed by Jonathan. Previously, the camper and non-camper interfaces were identical. That means easy maintenance, easy training, and easy use. How much are you expecting Jonathan to code and then maintain (separately) just so camping can come back? I don't see any other CB contingent asking for special interfaces...?

QBsutekh137 April 26 2006 2:03 PM EDT

I disagree, Sefton, and I will pull rank... I've been in CB-land a bit longer than you. Jonathan defended camping _all_ the time, even against strenuous arguments from *gasp* ME! Oh, believe you me I cried hard when Jonathan didn't GIVE ME MY WAY! *smile*

If Jonathan could bring camping back with nominal (and non-ongoing) development, with no inconvenience to non-campers, and low impact on performance, he would do it. I see absolutely no other reason to think otherwise. What is your reasoning to think he suddenly no longer like camping from a philosophical viewpoint?

[T]Vestax April 26 2006 2:16 PM EDT

Make players go through a long nonsensical adventure through the land of CB on the off chance that they might get a rare. It could include all your favorite characters from the days of yore.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] April 26 2006 2:35 PM EDT

like some websites have before you hit submit buttons you have to type in 4 letters, like a botcheck.

on the stores page, under each rare item, have a botcheck on the same line as the item, then hit "buy items". Then if the botcheck is correct, the item is bought

Karmic Mishap [Soup Ream] April 26 2006 2:45 PM EDT

Yea.
There have been more than enough ideas suggested to make camping doable again. Jon just doesn't like to admit he could be wrong. How often does he 'take back' some of the bad changes around here? By this point, I think that camping isn't coming back just because Jon doesn't ever want to have to think that somebody could be cheating it, and by extension, him, again. And that's too bad.

QBsutekh137 April 26 2006 2:47 PM EDT

Bot-checking each line means generating a bot-check image for each and every line in the store. That's server intensive. If you are going to make a graphic for each item, it would be just as easy to express each item title as a graphic with wobbly letters (but again, server intensive). At least I figure it would be more intensive than good old text...

Then again, if we got rid of all the useless tulwars and slings, there would be fewer items to generate an image for...

If it WOULD be doable from the server side, I imaging the programming would be relatively straightforward. Just change the code that assembles the item names to use an image instead of the straight text from the database. The performance problem comes from having to make each image dynamically varying. If the same image were used each time, a computer could rip through all the images in a millisecond and know which one represented a BoNE, for example.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] April 26 2006 2:56 PM EDT

just rares*

WeaponX April 26 2006 2:57 PM EDT

why don't we just make a seperate rares store and make it so that the 1st person to enter it when a rare spawns wins?

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] April 26 2006 3:01 PM EDT

As far as a rare store vs. a non-rare store, there already is a simliar distinction in the existing store called the items I can afford store, and all items store. Add another select box saying you want the rare store. Heck add it to the "settings" section like chat or some such. Make only the rare store cost BA and need a bot check (a system whose code is pressumably still around), then make only that store bot proof. If that store is slower, has 50 bot checks or requires a seperate download, so be it, it is fair to all who choose to use it, and as I say to my kids, .0000000001% camping is a billion times more than 0.

As far as goofy text I simply mean like A Pair of Le5ather Boots and Hel7m of Durin. Again, do not need to do that for any store but the rare store. If you do it for all the items, not just the rare ones, then it will be difficult to script them in automatically selected, even with wildcard strings.

The store could be one big image, and you had to use a cart system to select multiple items. Again, some better than none. So you cant buy the BTh and the ELB same time, boo hoo!

As far as Jon's interest I can only go by what I have seen since he has removed it, which is virtually nothing. I have seen no true dialog with any return of camping suggestion with any sort of positive or negative direction. Your posts are plentiful and often verbose Sutatolah, but Jon's are absent.

Apathy: Lack of interest or concern, especially regarding matters of general importance or appeal; indifference.

That is the sense I get from a philosophical standpoint.

NSFY April 26 2006 3:53 PM EDT

No entry found for Le5ather. Did you mean Leather? No entry found for Hel7m. Did you mean Helm? pffft - can't even fool dictionary.com

QBsutekh137 April 26 2006 3:57 PM EDT

Jonathan has no requirement to respond. Heck, even my big mouth goes silent for weeks at a time. *smile*

OK, I am seeing these ideas, and the rare-store segmenter already does away with a lot of my but-Jon-won't-like-thats.

I don't think the "wildcard" text would work. It would be easier for the server to generate, but that means it would also be easy for the client to decode (if there is automation involved). If you truly can have a separate download or something that constitutes a non-automation browser window, then I am all for that. I just didn't know such a thing was possible.

MegaMan, so if four rares spawn, you get all four? I suppose rare spawning could be controlled (as can a lot of things) with the separate store idea...

I am really coming around to that...I mean, the forge was a lot of work and a whole separate link, so why not camping? I can see Jonathan saying to himself, "Because everyone can forge, not everyone camps..." and I can understand that logic too.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] April 26 2006 4:33 PM EDT

Everyone can camp, just like everyone can forge. I do not think I have ever trully forged in CB2, more than to bump a leather a point or two or some such nonsense. I think your point is it doesn't take much more than time and minimal intelligence to forge, whereas, to camp, you need a skill whose level can change your reward. So sure anyone can camp, but not anyone can be a sucessful camper. Where forging, as I said wont take much to succeed.

In the end, as you say Jon is not required to respond. I do think it is odd that a person who is just now coming around to the idea of the return of camping is the only person saying Jon would like it back, not even Jon himself. In the end, I do as the courts do when confronted when silence, assume the worst.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 26 2006 4:39 PM EDT

"Then again, if we got rid of all the useless tulwars and slings, there would be fewer items to generate an image for..."

I love you! :D

Get rid of those Tulwars! :D

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] April 26 2006 5:00 PM EDT

There are a few options here for camping.

1) Putting bot-check on the buy page as a requirement for buying rare items from store.

2) Making a confirm-buy page that you get after you select items to buy with a botcheck on it.

3) (Fill in the blank)

4) (Fill in the blank)

5) (Fill in the blank)

6) Leaving camping out of CB2

LayWaste-[bA April 26 2006 5:32 PM EDT

People using dial-up (not including myself) are going to be at an increasingly large disadvantage if camping comes back with pop-up windows/images by the handful. Not that they aren't already, but the more there is to load, the farther behind they are obviously. I'd like to think that we are somewhat interested in keeping it even between the low and high-speed users. Maybe not though. :)

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] April 26 2006 5:43 PM EDT

Trust me when I tell you that the only way you could out camp a dedicated camper on dial up is if there were no dedicated campers against you, old system or new system, you could never generate enough raw speed on dial up to contend.

Abit April 26 2006 5:53 PM EDT

I used to be on dial-up against Saint and a few others!

I did ok.

QBsutekh137 April 26 2006 6:08 PM EDT

I am the only person saying I have nothing that leads me to believe Jonathan has suddenly changed his view of camping to one of disdain, and even that is only my humble opinion.

Will Jonathan spend a lot of time (especially ongoing) to bring camping back? No.
Could the phrase "a lot of" in my previous question be akin to "anything more than zero"? Yes.

So the only ideas worth even considering would be ways that meet the criteria I said before: server-friendly, development-friendly, and bot-user-unfriendly.

We have some ideas here, but I am not sure we have any that meet all thre criteria. And even then, that is only a start, not a guarantee of a response from Jonathan.

Seran [Hidden Agenda] April 26 2006 6:41 PM EDT

Nay!

Farming strong equipment through camping = cheating.

Seran [Hidden Agenda] April 26 2006 6:41 PM EDT

Well, from what I know.

=P I feel like I'm leaving spam.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] April 26 2006 6:49 PM EDT

Ok, so i thought i would photoshop some ideas, i photoshopped some of my ideas using the CB interface so you could see what i am actually talking about it turning out to be if what i was suggesting be implemented....

lol, make sure you check out the changed boxes where the botchecks are to see i made a new rule to the botchecks where the "Go" buton used to be, =P

Here is the one that i was talking about before where there could be something like this, but under each rare item, (Imagine this FSC is a rare)


Ok, here is another example we could use, have a botcheck, like before, to get into the store, then before you buy, have another botcheck next to the "buy Selected Items" button on the top and bottom.

Bull3t F4c3 April 26 2006 7:26 PM EDT

i love smalls idea, but it would entail being charged 2 ba for ever store visit..this could be a good or bad thing depending on how you view it..spending 2 ba on arrows sucks but on a corn etc it doesnt hurt as much. i think we should definately have a bot check to get out of the store..and maybe its free to get in

A Bathing Ape April 26 2006 7:34 PM EDT

pauls second idea is good... have the "enter" be the "buy selected items" button. Do the botcheck and when you are done just click "buy selected item". If you enter the bot check correctly you buy the item. (Have the botcheck under the amount of money you have instead of on the side.)

This way bots cant auto buy. However, I think you can still have a program click an item and then fill out the botcheck yourself which would be 2-3 seconds faster.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] April 26 2006 8:21 PM EDT

I cannot see how one of the best campers of all time did OK with dial up disproves my point abit ;)

Tezmac April 26 2006 8:31 PM EDT

I wish people would get it through their thick heads that adding a text entry field/botcheck/etc IS NOT A SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! People had to do this BEFORE camping was eliminated, IT ISN'T A SOLUTION!!!

Person A enters store (.1 sec)
Person B (running a macro/tool/whatever) enters store (.1 sec)

Person A fills out botcheck (1 sec)
Person B fills out botcheck (1 sec)

Person A scans store by eye for rares, checks boxes manually and clicks "buy" (3 sec)
Person B uses tool to automatically scan store, check boxes, and exits (.1 sec)

Person A enters another bot check to leave store with rare (1 sec)
Person B enters yet another bot check to leave store with rare (1 sec)

Person A enters yet another bot check to leave store with rare (1 sec)
Person B enters yet another bot check to leave store with rare (1 sec)

Person A enters a final another bot check to leave store with rare (1 sec)
Person B enters a final another bot check to leave store with rare (1 sec)

See the problem people? The solution has to involve removing a way for a macro to run to making buying only dependant on the human behind the keyboard (well, and their connection speed). This would involve doing something previously mentioned like making all of the store items into skewed text based images or something of the sort. I dont even think inserting random letters would work because people here are smart enough to figure out a way to filter the garbage out.




A Bathing Ape April 26 2006 8:35 PM EDT

so the only way to solve this is to have an image of texts for each item instead of text itself?

is that possible?

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] April 26 2006 9:24 PM EDT

umm, what is a botcheck?

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] April 26 2006 9:27 PM EDT

if Jon knows someone was hacking the stores, why cant he store ban that person? (For say, hackers in stores are banned from stores for a year, i dont care, they hacked stores, be store banned for life IMHO)

Flamey April 26 2006 9:32 PM EDT

i think camping got removed for a reason, jon didnt want it, so whats going to change his mind now?

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] April 26 2006 9:34 PM EDT

why'd he rid of TSA's, only to bring it back as a supporter item, was that on his mind from the beginning? Who knows, but him. He may bring back camping, do ANY of us really know?

QBsutekh137 April 26 2006 10:23 PM EDT

Images can be created from text... I am not sure of the details, but it can be done. So, as long as that image isn't (easily) OCRed (optical character recognition), the computer cannot decipher the images quickly enough to beat a human eye.

Problem is, if a client PC takes a while to decode, it stands to reason the the server takes a bit of processing to generate the image. Generating images for all the items would take time.

Now, Sefton's idea of making the whole page be an image, and then having a person be forced to type some sort of key to buy an item would be dang hard to use a bot on. Computers _still_ have trouble parsing words out of an image, and the programs/machines that can still take time. Looking for "Elven Long Bow" on a full image and then trying to find some random key-text to the side of the item would not be able to best a human.

Problem is, then the 90% of us who never, ever camp and just want to buy some arrows always have to scan for our stuff, type in a key-string, and click OK. That's user-unfriendly. That is, unless the campers have thrie own browser window of some sort (which is development-unfriendly).

It all comes back to needing to be relatively easy to program, bot-proof, and friendly for all the non-campers. I'm still not seeing any viable solutions, though I have definitely had my interest piqued...

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] April 26 2006 10:42 PM EDT

Nay.

It's dumb.
Any idiot with no life can do it and hail himself a CB legend.
It defies the point of playing a game of strategy.
It's unfair to 90% of CBers.
It's dumb.

*ducks a few particuarly violent looking carpings*

I'm not saying anyone who does it is an idiot, I actually get along well with a lot of people who made most of their cash camping. So please don't take this as a personal attack..

Now, to elaborate on my comments thus far; any idiot can sit there in a shop refreshing every twenty seconds and clicking a couple of buttons, in due time they'll learn the tricks of the trade and be making millions, then they'll be posting about how the pwn cuz they r teh 1337 (I'm assuming I did that right... sorry, a bit rusty on the old chatspeak), which thoroughly annoys me, and no doubt half of the CB community too. If they make their cash through forging, well at least they have to knuckle down and spend a few weeks/months at it to get anywhere, and most imbisiles will give up by then.
It defies the point of playing a game of strategy. Something about having the biggest Elbow, Loch (eh, BoNE) or whatever the latest fad is and using it on a basic character doesn't strike me as a worthy opponent... quite frankly I don't mind these guys, they're fun to fight because they can't believe they can lose to guys beneath their MPR and 10% of their NW, if only I had a webcam and could see the look on their faces... still, it's a pet hate, anyone doing well because of money and nothing else.
Also, inevitably 90% of CBers are going to suck at camping because only the fastest internet connections will do well, some of the better campers could compensate for this with skill... but when anyone with too much time on their hands and the latest super duper gadgety computer can rise to the top in a couple of weeks... it's another pet hate.
Finally, it's dumb.
For a start, by allowing this Jon is effectively giving up a fair bit of control over CB. CB is equivelant to a dictatorship (which gets a bad reputation really... I've got no problem with it so long as you've got a decent bloke at the top), allowing people to earn money very quickly is not a good idea... causes a lot of problems.
Secondly, keeping everyone equal has always been a high priority in this game, we can all see that. After all, this is CB2 and we all know why Jon started it *cough* Spid *cough*. Allowing a couple of people to make cash so quickly... again, very bad... everything else (except USD spenders) is kept to certain limitations of how fast they can grow. Personally if I had the time to play a lot, I'd be confident I could earn upwards of 50% more EXP than anyone else, but a good camper blows this out of the water completely...


In conclusion, camping totally kills the entire concept of the good old idiot tax. And those that would have done well without it, well good on them for taking advantage of a good opportunity, but it would be unwise for Jon to let it happen for so long.

WeaponX April 26 2006 11:08 PM EDT

MrC you have just lowered my IQ by posting that. your whole post is absurd beyond words. you say pretty much that any fool with no life can camp? any fool with no life can hit c enter all day as well especially here in CB2 with single FB mages. the other thing to your post which i find silly is the part where you say apart from USD spenders campers dominate.. 1st off USD spenders are now alone in this game to dominate...yay that seems so fun since pretty much the ENTIRE top 10 in score PR and to a lesser degree MPR are ALL heavily infused with USD. in cb2 there is no 1 spid to new players there's 5 or 6 guys that a new player just will not catch no matter what they do. 2nd Sefton pretty much proved even the best camper could not overtake a USD spender.

QBsutekh137 April 26 2006 11:32 PM EDT

I have to go with Mega on this (at least the defense of camping portion)... Was never my cup of tea, but it made a lot of people very, very happy and was a part of the game.

Campers were addicted to it, and that is what drew us all here -- addiction of some sort: one more BA, one more forge cycle, one more rank in the clan list... For campers it was "one more rare!" That's a beautiful thing.

That being said, I don't want in back unless it can meet the three criteria I keep harping on: bot-unfriendly, development-friendly, and non-camper-friendly.

Abit April 26 2006 11:57 PM EDT

lol...

"Any idiot with no life can do it and hail himself a CB legend."


Hey I had a life! Ok there for a while, I didn't. I guess that's how I could spend hours and hours camping.


You are however ignoring some aspects of camping and campers.Granted, I missed out on much of late CB1 and almost all of CB2. I can speak for quite a few and say that we were not all uber leet speaking dorks. You also assume we spent all our time camping and not enjoying the strategic aspects of the game. The economic aspects of the game are also very interesting and fun.


A complete newb will never walk out of the store w/ a rare anything! That in itself is sad.


After reading your post a little more carefully, I decided you never really knew any campers too well or that you have some sort of latent aggression towards them? It seems you think your chosen profession of forging is much more honorable, thought provoking, and intellectually challenging?


I always found forging mind-numbing, all you have to is learn the formula, then you can click, change a drop down box, then click more, ad infinitum. Nothing all that difficult. You can't fight when forging cuz you need the BA. To each his own I guess.


You sure have a lot of pet hates, mostly about materialism and wealth.


I still think there is something to be said for a free market economy! Much of the CB2 economy is (recently) highly regulated, market prices are set by Central Bank. Honestly, if the market needs that much regulation there is a problem. There are fees for everything.


Whatever happened to supply and demand?


Nothing personal, honest. I just felt the need to stand in defense of a profession almost as old as CB. You were making rash generalizations and attacking, after all.


QBsutekh137 April 27 2006 12:01 AM EDT

Hooray for white space!

AdminJonathan April 27 2006 12:02 AM EDT

Sutekh and Tezmac pretty much nailed the technical aspects. Just adding more bot checks only reduces a bot's advantage, without eliminating it; an imagemap or other primarily image-based store would not work for CPU or bandwidth at the page rates that campers inflicted on CB.

A custom Java app or FF extension fails both the "work for Jonathan" and "clunkiness inflicted on non-campers" tests.

"Click here to maybe get a rare" would work technically but seems even more absurdly mindless than classic camping. That would be more pathetic than inspiring or even interesting.

As to apathy, well, this isn't exactly the first time we've been over this ground, and I know the pro-camping zealots will flame me regardless of the technical merits of what I say anyway. Better to lie low. :P

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] April 27 2006 12:12 AM EDT

MegaMan,
A) Single Fireball mage strategy will get you only so far.
Think of it this way, if everyone has it, everyone but the top few will be losing to everyone above them. The only way to break out of this pattern of mediocrity is to change, to improve. A lot of the best strategists in CB started CB2 with this strategy, I don't see any of them using it today.
B) Yep, the top ten have all put USD into their characters.
It's an injustice to all who would otherwise be beating them... but then again, USD adds something to the game, without it, CB would be long gone. So I can accept USD.
But let me get this straight, your argument is that because USD spenders are at the top, it would be better if camping was also an option?
So... rather than say 10% of people heavily investing in CB2$ with their USD, we would have 15% making huge proffits from either USD or camping? In other words, we've now got 15% of people far richer than anyone else...
C) People can hit C Enter all they like, it wont do them much good if they don't _think_ about their strategy because they wont be making very high rewards otherwise, and they wont be that tough anyway if their characters are tripping over their own feet before they get to take a swing at their opponents.

You also seem to be one of those people who subscribe to the thinking that you don't have to do very much to succeed if everyone is doing something (single FB mage) and doing ok.
... Have you ever considered that it is best to give people the opportunity to rise above the rest?


Sutekh, I agree fully on the addiction comment. I've always felt that the way BA regenerates is very good at keeping people here.
May I ask one question though? You say that you will agree with camping provided that it meets those three standards..
What reason is there for Jon to bring it back though?
I'm sure he's clever enough to make it fair... but I'm yet to see a solid argument that tells us what it would add to the game. The simple fact that items spawned randomly implies that Jon didn't intend for it to become a business in the first place.. some people grew to like it, but is that enough to make up for the problems it causes?

Flamey April 27 2006 12:13 AM EDT

now that Jon has said something, i think this thread would probably need no more posts

QBsutekh137 April 27 2006 12:41 AM EDT

The reason for Jonathan would have been to please a contingent of people. That is what the game is for. Get people and keep people, so that CB has a rich community (and Jonathan gets enough cash from supporterships, etc. to keep the server running).

Your question could very well apply to the whole game. Why bother? *smile*

[Redneck RV] Truc April 27 2006 12:43 AM EDT

Abit's first response got me thinking.

<white space>

At one time I was a decent camper...even beat Abit and Saint a few nights...but WHY was I camping????

Wasn't really the supposed riches...IT WAS THE RUSH!

CB2 seems to be missing that lottery-like dream of a sweet moment when something extremely cool happens.

CB2 needs *something* to keep the dream alive.

( /me mumbles something that sounds like traybooshay )

Abit April 27 2006 1:23 AM EDT

The rush...


</white space>

Hooray for the dream!

/me mumbles something about "no more posts..."

LumpBot April 27 2006 2:27 AM EDT

Psh, camping was for a bunch of lame kids with nothing better to do. best to keep it away so that they can leave their computer screens and find new interests. If it wasn't for Jon's ban of camping, I wouldn't of gotten the joy of sunlight!
~Spaceman

Karmic Mishap [Soup Ream] April 27 2006 3:55 AM EDT

Yeah, Spaceman, but I'm still trying to play this game and don't get much from forging. And the 'camper's thrill' is either so sad it's pathetic (when you get a Lesser Tattoo!), or simulated by an admin or somebody else who felt generous or lazy. I need money, man, my team still isn't even fully equiped, much less redone NCB-style! Mega's got it right: it's a USD dynasty, everyone, welcome to every-other-MMORPG-out-there and get used to it, I guess. :(

QBBarzooMonkey April 27 2006 9:20 AM EDT

"Addicted To That Rush" - name the artist & then name the member of the band that I've actually met ('cuz he's from my hometown) for 50k!

Yes, I've hijacked my own thread! :P

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] April 27 2006 9:24 AM EDT


Mr. Big. Billy Sheehan?

Flamey April 27 2006 9:26 AM EDT

Mr. Big. and i dont know who you have met so i will name all the members :P

Eric Martin

Billy Sheehan

Pat Torpey

Richie Kotzen

QBBarzooMonkey April 27 2006 9:27 AM EDT

Bast wins!

BarzooMonkey (Dogs Of War) 64.65.211.77 QBBast (Tobey) $50000 -- Winner! 9:26 AM EDT

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] April 27 2006 9:29 AM EDT


As it turns out, I do rock! ;-)

Who loves Barzoo!?!

WeaponX April 27 2006 9:38 AM EDT

MrC the way my diagram is it's simple even by your math. 10% of people have a chance or 25% of people have a chance. the NUB is nothing but a patronizing boost. it will give you the MPR but not enough NW to compete. the NCB is strictly for people who have an extreme amount of money and who are the ones with the money? USD spenders. Mantra who was full NUBed out and used it to the max did as well as i see any NUB doing and guess what even though he spent some USD look at his NW. his NW is 1 5th of Ranger's and DAWG has more than Ranger! i've also asked Mantra why he chose the FB mage strat and his answer really made me think he said that there was no chance of him genorating enough NW to power a tank. my conclusion to this is that most if not all NUB players MUST be a mage in order to even have a chance to reach the top. everybody here is missing a key fact. a way to genorate NW and money is essential in this game whether its camping or something new because as it stands outside of a NUB mage you will not see anybody challenge for a top 5 start other than a USD spending NCB player.

if you read all that congratualions and thanks.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] April 27 2006 10:06 AM EDT

Well this got a little more lively since I last peeked in on it. And from several unexpected quarters. Since I am a positive thinker I will start with Jon's post, and then hopefully run out of steam before I get to MrChuck, although his post is fairly steam inspiriing.

Jon, thank you. If my one word got you to respond, I am not sorry I used it. Your post answered a host of questions in my mind about why certain ideas were not being tossed around more seriously as a method for bring camping back. It is one thing for Sut and I to debate hypothetically about whether something can or cannot be done, whether something is technically difficult or not, its another to have the expert in charge say a few simple things that make the speculation die and the truth be known. I was honestly hoping you would be like, well the image idea, there is the Linux script that generate a new image from an old image by just updating the changes of the image or instead of the whole thing, or something like that, because I felt the image idea would be able to be fair, and not CB clunky, I was worried about bandwidth though, and it fails there obviously. But now that you have said so I will stop wracking my brain for image related ideas.

I honestly thought a different Java App or extension would not be that bad. That the few of us who want to camp, could put up with any weirdness for the ability to camp, but now I know that is not an option, so I wont keep throwing app based ideas at the wall.

I have to agree click here to maybe get a rare is not good for me.

As far as flames, well, I am a pro-camping zealot and you will get no such non-sense from me. I appreciate knowing the answers instead of guessing them.

Now I am not sure what is up Chuck. If I remember correctly we did quite a little bit of business with me camping and you selling. I know I made money and I am pretty sure you did to. So I am not sure where that puts you on the "any idiot can do it scale" but it does make you culpable.

I would make this challenge to you, if any idiot can do it, I hand pick 10 campers and you go at it with them over a week's time. When they obliterate all hope you have for getting a decent rare for a week consistently, you will then either re-evaluate how easy it is for any idiot to do it, OR find that you yourself on less than any idiot for you cannot do it. In the end, it is easy to say things, but in your case impossible to prove them since a) there is no more camping so it cannot be tested and b) you never camped so what the heck do you know about how easy it is anyway?

Lets see this is a strategy game. Part of that strategy is how to best use your BA. Deciding to use it one way (fighting) or another way (forging) or even another way (camping) is part of that strategy, so how does it hurt strategy? You say it is unfair to 90% of CBers. I disagree it the great fairness equalizer, a 13 year old kid with no pay pal, no means of generating USD could have had the most NW of any character in CB because of camping, now the NW goes to the guy with the most cash, which is much more unfair than the other way.

Again you say it defies the point of a strategy game to decide which strategy is the best to burn your BA, HUH?

Well if 90% of the CBers are going to suck at camping, Ill say 99% of them are going to suck worse at coming up with $100 USD to buy their NW with. And the fastest internet connections had nothing to do with it. After a certain point you have more bandwidth on your downstream than the server has to provide, so basically once you got over dial up speeds all speeds are equal.

The only super duper gadget that destroyed camping was software. Specifically the massively extendable FireFox browser. It had nothing to do with Alienware machines or a twiddler instead of a keyboard.

I think in the end, you applied the idiot tax to the wrong people.

AND the final P.S. of it, when I was camping and fighting with Gyaxx and competing for the top, I am pretty sure I remember running over your single mage with my NW repeatedly and often. Even if it was not you, I do not remember you beating me and then laughing as I could not figure out why, because there was a short list of people that could beat me and I did not see your name anywhere on it. Again, words are cheap, historical fact and actions are the stuff that provides a post with substance.

Guess I had some steam left in me....and thank you again Jon.

Godpanda April 27 2006 10:35 AM EDT

/me starts a llama farm

We going to need a lot of llamas for this group of people

oh and I guess.... nay? yes? eh i dont know.

Nixon Jibfest April 27 2006 12:31 PM EDT

Here's a quick solution:

1. Highlight rares when they pop up so everyone sees it.
2. Make it so rares stay in the store for a minimum of 10-15 seconds before someone can buy it.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] April 27 2006 12:34 PM EDT

Both of those do not remove the problem that caused it to be removed. Automated bots searching for words.
The only definate solution I can possibly see is to leave it be.

QBsutekh137 April 27 2006 1:40 PM EDT

Real Life, I am really not seeing how leaving the item in the store for 15 seconds helps...then if 40 campers enter the store and click on it, who gets it?

The issue has never been about parity between campers (the campers LIKE the competition), it is about keeping non-human elements (read: bots) out of the equation.

Abit April 27 2006 2:20 PM EDT

So Sefton is responsible for Chuckles resentment of campers. What happened? Did he beat you to that Morg? Did your g/f leave you for him and his riches? Just kidding...

It seems to be a dead subject at this point, how about we come up with some more new ideas to bring back the "dream" as Truc put it so well.

Use your time on CB to help us come up w/ a solution instead of pointing out the problems as you see them.

Some of us miss camping, others are glad it's gone. Either way it's gone.

stabilo April 27 2006 3:24 PM EDT

we could display all items in the store as sole images, then no bot could know which are rares and which are not .. and camping comes back to real manual work ;-)

SNK3R April 27 2006 3:28 PM EDT

Stabilo:

"Just adding more bot checks only reduces a bot's advantage, without eliminating it; an imagemap or other primarily image-based store would not work for CPU or bandwidth at the page rates that campers inflicted on CB." - Jon

deifeln April 27 2006 8:58 PM EDT

I'm 100% for camping to return...if Jon makes each trip to the store cost 10k CB and 10 BA.

SuiteStuff [C and S Forgery Lmtd.] April 27 2006 9:16 PM EDT

i am down for camping!!! I miss it too much...dont know how we can do it though with out anyone cheating.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] April 28 2006 9:08 AM EDT

- This post is directed to Sefton, as I haven't read any other posts since my last -

First off, you're a very good camper, and also very bright. Hence the reason I've never had any problems with you, but the fact is that it doesn't take much to camp. Honestly, a fast connection and a few weeks of practice and it's not about brains... - I do recognise that some of you gain an edge over the rest, but my problem isn't with the majority of you, it's with the fact that it is concievable that someone can camp with some success without that edge.
I have no doubt that if you put me up against any five campers I'd be absolutely destroyed.
I don't have the patience to camp. ;)

Also, for the record I think you have me mistaken for someone else there when you said you camped and I sold... the economy of CB was never a strong point of mine. If I made a string of good deals, I'd surely remember. ;)

As for your comment about it being a strategic choice.
Darn right. - See the last line of my last post. It's a good choice, and good on anyone who can do it well, take advantage of it all you like. But whilst it is a very good option for individuals, I don't think it is a good idea to have camping as an option.
You did make an excellent point though, camping gave people an option to beat USD. I don't believe it to be quite so black and white... but I'll humour the idea.
That means that the only reasonable way to beat USD is to camp...
Wouldn't the better answer be to find a way to lesser the affect USD has on the game? There are many subtle ways, for instance, a slight buff to anti-tank enchantments would do nicely.

Finally, yes you were beating up on my character (at 2x my MPR!... 150k to 300k if I remember correctly... funny how losses stick in the brain, eh?) but as I already said, you're one of the campers I've no problem with and that character had far suprerior NW to my own, but you also had a good strategy going too. Quite a few campers own formidable characters, but a few good apples does not say anything about everyone. Allowing people to rise up so quickly above others because they're good at camping and are yet to prove themselves good at anything else, does not do much good to the rest of the community. That's my problem with it. - Again, please don't take this as a comment directed at you.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] April 28 2006 9:49 AM EDT

While I disagree with some of you more recent post, that is simply a difference of opinion. I do not think unintelligent people would be good long term campers. Certainly not as successful as unintelligent long term forgers. And if given the proper ratio, heck you could say the same thing about fighting and growing a single mage. So I still disagree with you there.

Yah figured out who on the buy sell things whew, I am getting old, think my memory is showing the effect. (personal edit: removed joke asking Bast how she copes with it)

To what I think is the real meat and potatoes of your post. "Wouldn't the better answer be to find a way to lesser the affect USD has on the game? There are many subtle ways, for instance, a slight buff to anti-tank enchantments would do nicely" This I am all for. Yes it would be better, and yes I agree there are many ways. Lacking them though, camping would be one way, amongst other great ideas which I encourage anyone who has one to post and elaborate in detail.

I think that camping was good for the community. It allowed an equalizer for USD spenders. It offered the chance for anyone to get lucky and go from rags to riches. It gave a competitive alternative to BA spent on fighting, making BA buying and spending an even more strategic choice. It offered a reason to actually be playing and interacting with the game for hours on end, instead of burning through BA reading a few posts and moving on. This added to the community a dedicated group of people that were constantly looking for interaction to stave off the boredom brought on by the 500th Bot check of the day. So I think IF it could be brought back, it would be a postive influence on the community. Barring its return, I think there are other alternative to help defray the high cost of adding NW in CB2. So lets see them!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 28 2006 11:01 AM EDT

Towards the start of CB2 I found an ELS in the store! :D That was a rush! :D

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] April 28 2006 12:33 PM EDT

Poor forgers. Even dear, sweet Sefton disparages their mental abilities.

maulaxe April 28 2006 4:25 PM EDT

- bot-unfriendly
- user-friendly

Seems to me those two are mutually exclusive.
In order to distinguish a bot from a human, you must require the human to do something that is not possible to have a machine do.
About being user-friendly, isn't the point of that to allow users to not have to do more work than is necessary for enjoyment?

So in order to tell that I am a human, I must work to prove that I am indeed who I content to be... and I myself contend that I am quite lazy and find frequent bot-checks annoying.

Unappreciated Misnomer April 30 2006 9:23 AM EDT

leave camping the way it was, just bring it back, i for one never camped anything for the simple fact there were good campers out there and i sucked, besides,some people in cb fight, some forge, why cant others camp.

Abit May 2 2006 4:20 PM EDT

Whew! This thread is finally dead.

Just testing something

thanks.

Abit May 2 2006 4:56 PM EDT

A Trollskin Armor [22] (+31) NW: 799,586
A Polar Bear Hide Berserker Coat [22] (+31) NW: 799,586

A Morgul-Hammer [84x40] (+30) NW: $1,484,555
'Ghal Maraz' the legendary hammer[84x40] (+30) NW: $1,484,555
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001muL">Camping Yea or Nay?</a>