Phantom Link (in General)

A couple of observations about CBs newest Skill. :) First, I'd like to post a melee round of a Fight of Chosen versus Mokaba. Mokaba is only a little under (well about 100K!) my MPR, and the fight goes to a stalemate. This is due to Mokababs first minion having 270AC and any damage done by UC through that is getting absorbed by PL. My first observation, In essence, I have to fight through that AC twice. "Violet Bier of Sorrows bruised Mokaba [4995] Mokaba absorbs damage [4995] Violet Bier of Sorrows tapped Mokaba [5389] Mokaba absorbs damage [5389] Violet Bier of Sorrows bruised Mokaba [5183] Mokaba absorbs damage [2282] Violet Bier of Sorrows draws strength from his weapon! [1174] Mokaba's Guardian Angel smote Violet Bier of Sorrows (1521)" Secondly, I knew VA leech was stopped by PL, but it's interesting to note, that until the PL minion died (they're all called Mokaba!) and I could leech from the first minion, I wasn't hit by any GA damage. I wasn't aware that damage absorbed by PL doesn't trigger a GA retaliation. A high AC minion, backed by a seperate PL minion really stops tanks. The amount of damage done is reduced by the massive AC, and that little amount abosrbed by PL.

who would ever think that wearing armor might help in fight...

ever tried using <br> when using HTML mode?

O_O

I should have been posting in plain text... >_<

A couple of observations about CBs newest Skill. :)

First, I'd like to post a melee round of a Fight of Chosen versus Mokaba. Mokaba is only a little under (well about 100K!) my MPR, and the fight goes to a stalemate. This is due to Mokababs first minion having 270AC and any damage done by UC through that is getting absorbed by PL.

My first observation, In essence, I have to fight through that AC twice.

"Violet Bier of Sorrows bruised Mokaba [4995]
Mokaba absorbs damage [4995]
Violet Bier of Sorrows tapped Mokaba [5389]
Mokaba absorbs damage [5389]
Violet Bier of Sorrows bruised Mokaba [5183]
Mokaba absorbs damage [2282]
Violet Bier of Sorrows draws strength from his weapon! [1174]
Mokaba's Guardian Angel smote Violet Bier of Sorrows (1521)"

Secondly, I knew VA leech was stopped by PL, but it's interesting to note, that until the PL minion died (they're all called Mokaba!) and I could leech from the first minion, I wasn't hit by any GA damage. I wasn't aware that damage absorbed by PL doesn't trigger a GA retaliation.

A high AC minion, backed by a seperate PL minion really stops tanks. The amount of damage done is reduced by the massive AC, and that little amount abosrbed by PL.

I've nothing against a High AC. :) It's just with high AC and one or more PL minions in essence multiplying the minions that have that AC, 25 rounds isn't enough.

It's hard enough cracking a 300AC minion in the round limit (Decay or a VB will be the only way) but having in essence to do that twice, thrice or more times (consider a High AC minion and three PL minions behind him), I don't tihnk will be viable in 25 rounds.

Stalemate team set up.

1) High AC Wall
2) PL minion wearing a ToJ (No wepaons)
3) PL minion
4) High AC Wall

That's 5 targets to spread FB/CoC over, a Wall at the back to protect the PL minions from MM. Tanks need to fight through massive AC 4 times (plus the Endurance bearing ToJ).

Can you get thorugh something like this in 25 rounds?

All you need to do is figure some way to do damage, and set your fightlist up to those you can beat. No one else will fight you, as Stalemates are terrible. :)

The answer to this one is to increase the damage output. Of course if people are wearing high AC at lower levels then you're out of luck but with a little patience and time you should be able to beat a team like this...

PL is highly useful but you just have to go above what is being absorbed.

Johnny, upping your damage output doesn't really help, when 63%+ is stopped by AC.

You up your damage, your target ups thier HPs.

It's hard enough getting through one set of (very costly) massive AC, but PL replicates that cost (with an additional 10% damage reduction, that's like another 48AC) with a small amount of XP...

Actually the PL isn't the main problem looking at his team. Low level damage output on both sides of the fight - he's not doing enough damage to hurt you too badly and that combination of PL and his ToE is cutting your damage right down to size.

And it isn't just you either...I've just gone back to UC for a little while to test out UC/ToE and I can't beat him. Stalemate city!

It's not really aobut my fight with Mokaba, that just highlighted to me how well high AC works with PL.

(And not getting hit by GA until the PL minion dies!)

But how do you realistically cut thorugh a high AC minion backed by one or more PL minions in 25 rounds?

Mmm. Annoying. Mokaba's team is remarkably similar to my next NCB idea. Incredibly so. What with Barzoo and now this....all ex Invalids as well!!! Great minds or what.....

No, it's a good strat. Very very good use of damage reduction - ac+pl+toe+uc's evasion.....


Don't complain about how well it works mate!! Take some inspiration instead!!!!!

Large VB/Morg/Elb would appear to be the best ways of gettting past this defense. Would it be as successful though without the AC?

PL - the skill that reminded people of how good high AC actually is!

I do have to say that it's unlikely that you'll ever get much more than a stalemate vrs a high AC minion when the main damage source is UC. There just isn't a weaker strat in regards to actual damage done per hit, I wouldn't expect that you'd ever beat those teams without using some of the pre-proscribed methods. PL really seems secondary to the situation.

I'm in agreement with you there Nov - a first where UC is concerned! UC starts to get better results higher up the scale, especially when coupled with multi-strike ability, but against high AC or a large ToE it just doesn't quite reach the point where it goes above the pain threshold.


In the meantime - is it time for an AC is overpowered thread?!?!? ;)

:P I know my UC is hitting like a fly (well, like anormal x70 +70 wepaon...), but it really doesn't matter which wepaon you use, when a percentage of the damage done is removed. Plus, it's been mentioned to me that a lot of the high score teams with large ACs are stalemating versus each other, as they just can't do enough damage to each other in 25 rounds.

I don't think they are using UC! :P

See...AC IS overpowered!

I'm thinking some of you aren't getting the point. It's not that the AC is the problem. It's this.

Example 1.

Minion 1. AC : Huge

Minion 2. AC : 0 With trained PL

Minion 3. AC : 0 With trained PL

Minion 4. AC : Huge

Now. You have 2 minions with extrememly high Net Worth getting them the High AC. but with the use of PL you are getting the effect of having 4 minions with Huge AC but only paying for 2 of them. GL is explaining that it is tough enough to try to do damage to kill even 1 minion with over 300 ac in a normal 25 round fight let alone the 2 in this example, but trying to get thru that 4 times is just plain impossible. I don't care what type of damage dealing char you have. It's just not possible.

Possible solutions. Some type of ammo, equipment that hits it target and makes PL not valid. or a Ammo or equipment that when hitting the PL minion stops the link of some type. In closing I do agree with GL. If someone takes the time to get huge AC and then adds a good strat with PL.. The will be very hard to beat.

Nah, we get the point GL's making. But really the problem, if you can call it that, is the damage reduction of the AC/Toe in relation to the damage dealt. PL absorbs a total of twice it's level right? So to do damage to the non PL minion you need to be hitting for higher than the PL level. If you're hitting for small amounts it stands to reason you're going to come in under the PL threshold. And it also stands to reason that if you're not doing huge damage the PL minion is going to survive too long for you to beat the team.

Agreed, PL/high AC is very effective, probably the most effective defense strategy we've seen so far, but as with most strats in the game it is defeatable by high damage.

LOL Johnny, PL will absorb some damage, it doesn't need to abosrb it all.

As Cylo pointed out more clearly, each minion with PL effectively get's the AC of the minion hit, which is usually the highest AC on the team.

Spend 40 mil on getting a massive AC on one minion. For free, get it on all of them.

That's the problem. ;)

And not only the cost, you con't get the PR increase from actually having the massive networth armours equipped. PL is like AC for free, with an extra 48 or so added on top!

I do get the point you're making GL. No, really I honestly do!!!! I'm not just arguing for the sake of it. Even if I do hate dentists...

I'm just not sure it's a problem, unless it causes too many stalemates. I was trying out PL this week until today. It's not just AC that is being effectively doubled/tripled/quadrupled in this way though. Any investment into HP or AS gets the same treatment. Provided the PL is high enough to absorb 100% of the damage received you're fighting through all defense layers twice or more.

It is very effective for sure and not very costly either. That is might be the problem - you get too much bang for your buck possibly....

Oh I agree. :) I've always said the best wau to use PL is with a RoS boosted AS. :)

Pl weakens (often severely in the case of idiots with multiple pl minions) you vrs CoC and FB, it's supposed to be the balancing factor vrs all of this. I really find it asinine that decent damage reduction is seen as overpowered at all, A high dex tank with a VB makes me sorry I woke up...move on people.

Versus FB or CoC, that's what the 4/5 minions are for. Hell even drop some AC on the back wall and stick a MgS or TSA on him. :)

The VB is possibly the only thing to use, but your still fighting 3/4 people with massive AC instead of the normal 1/2. Plus the VB doesn notihng to the additoinal 48AC (10% Reduction) that PL gives on top of your VB reduced AC...

first off Gl DR doesn't stack AT ALL, so implying that PL adds an additional 48 AC is not true, any more than saying a 10% Prot does.

My point concerning area effect spells was that because damage gets focused towards a single one of the minions it dramatically increases the effect of those spells. I could likely see all my minions live to melee with a number of folks if I didn't have PL. Stop beating a can with your fits expecting to open it, even a hammer isn't the best tool. Get a can opener.

Sorry Novice, what did I get wrong? If you have 300AC you take 63% (on average) of the damage done to you. This 63% gets absorbed by PL, which reduces another 10% on top of that.

Granted, it's not quite as much as reducing damage by 73%.

it's actually no where even close to 73%, which was the reason for my response.

It's 66.7% overall. ;)

Novice. I think you are taking what is being said a bit personal or something. Nobody, and I mean nobody, is saying that a person that has huge AC should not have damage reduced. That is a given. Yes tanks need armor and if you want to hit them you have to hit thru their armor. The point is this. You only have armor on one minion. Not the others that have PL trained on them and are getting the benefit of that huge armor when they are wearing none to begin with. So the tough spot is this.

How does a person hit thru multiple minions with that huge armor when the person only had to pay to upgrade the armor on 1 minion, but train a minimal amount of exp to get the same amount on up to 3 more minions? That is the point I am trying to make and if I understand GL it seems to be what he is saying also.

well said Cylo. Yes PL is very very very strong verses tanks, especially those with low damage NW when combined with Heavy AC. However on the other side of things every point I train into PL lowers my survival time in fights with mages using area effect dd spells (often dramatically). It's a self balancing attribute, and it may certainly need some fine tuning, but I think it's doing exactly what Jon intended.

Besides the folks expecting to be able to use a tank to pick off enchanters to allow a spread damage DD spell I really don't understand how this makes all that much difference. Most tanks I stalemate with are people with rather low weapon NW for the size of the team (at least compared to other folks at the same size), the 10% reduction of PL could vanish completely and I'd be in almost an identical position.

Elros and Illuvatar are the two best examples of this in relating to my team...either one could make a simple change and decimate my team, but as they are I'm enjoying a better than 90% win rate.

Most tanks I stalemate with are people with rather low weapon NW for the size of the team (at least compared to other folks at the same size),


I would like to know who are those players.I stalemate 50% of the time vs The lega he own a 45M NW MH.Care to explain how the biggest weapon not own by eithers freed/jayuu/dawg can stalemate someone and according to some MH are overpowered.(harzb also stalemate failure)

Its pretty simple. Mokaba and The Lega are *EXTREMELY* defense focused strategies. Their offense is small, and the majority of the characters' resources are focused on defense (armor, hitpoints, amf, protection, toe, evasion, etc..)

Because their offense is small, they work best against their antithesis which is high offense low defense. Hopefully their defense beats their opponents offense and they get the win.

The problem I think is too many people lean defensively and thus alot of battles are headed in the stalemate direction.

That's why I'm ALL OFFENSE, BABY!!!!!