ToE effectiveness? (in General)

QBsutekh137 July 3 2006 5:00 PM EDT

Hey all,

OK, my earlier post today about RoE vs steel familiar basically had a bunch of people telling me ToE is the way to go, even for a single minion. I've done some testing, and I would very much like to know where this perception is coming from, and why folks think it applies to high-level fighting?

I beat up on son of Lorhar a while this afternoon. Fought with my steel familiar so I could last two rounds and actually win a few. I recorded all my fireball damages in round one and two, and normalized to full effectiveness to get more data points per BA used.

Against son of Lorhar:
Number of Fireballs: 22
Average damage per fireball: 1,192,479

I then found the softest target I could and shot at him for 17 battles, one round each:

Against Matchbox 20:
Number of Fireballs: 17
Average damage per fireball: 1,621,971

son of Lorhar reduces the damage quite a bit. Too bad he would need a huge additional amount of HP to withstand such large damages that still make it through.

I can never remember the estimated percentage the ToE stops. I always remember the 75% reduction cap, but what is the percentage it reduces in the first place (assuming the ToE level is greater than the blow, which son of Lorhar's ToE definitely is -- it's huge).

In any case, I am not seeing the reasoning for a single mage to use a ToE at high levels. The only think it gains you is to survive ranged rounds (since blows there are usually smaller). But why? I can probably kill what I need to kill in ranged anyway -- the FB mage already has the advantage there (and they are the vast majority of single-minion teams).

Damage is huge up here (even in ranged, actually). There are 15-16 characters that have Most Powerful Blows north of 500K, and some exceed 1.5 million... Other than that there are lots of large fireballs, MMs, and CoC mages (even a far lesser CoC makes my FB look like junk in melee). Even a ToE that stops 400-500K damage doesn't mean a lot when 1 million is still leaking around it. ToE might gain me one round, whereas a familiar is going to be helping me mop up in ranged.

This dynamic changes ENTIRELY once a second minion is added. The second minion can have a lot more HP and heavy armor, making the ToE a fantastic choice. But for single minion fighting, I'm just not seeing it.

I'm hoping TuffBunny takes the risk of converting his ToE into a familiar and can then tell us his thoughts on it fact, if he doesn't like it, I will pay half the fee to switch it back.

Here's an interesting look: son of Lorhar 24-hour battle summary shows that most battles (wins and losses) are done in under 4 rounds. If a lot of battles are being decided in ranged anyway, why use a ToE?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 3 2006 5:04 PM EDT

it's the reduction of AMF blow back that is key, without my ToE I was taking 150k + a round with gothmog, with the 1.5 mil ToE it was survivably less. The recent changes have likely altered things a bit, but I'd still bet AMF does more damage to you than most folks per round.

QBsutekh137 July 3 2006 5:12 PM EDT

Yes, but remember: AMF backlash, at least on a big DD spell like mine, means I am laying down some SERIOUS damage in my own right. To stop at, "You are just damaging yourself" isn't entirely true... If I believed that, I would stop training DD, wouldn't I? Yes, I take massive blows from AMF, but if I am landing million-point punches, that is the offset.

And remember, AMF backlash is going be small compared the damage I take as people start landing bigger blows that get around my ToE. AMF backlash will grow roughly in a linear fashion, and I can just train another couple 100K HP to last another round.

Then again, I haven't gone up against some of the million+ AMFs in the game yet. I can't beat those teams -- maybe that's why. I better crunch some more numbers, or at least look at them. In any case it's a good point, novice, one I keep forgetting about...

QBJohnnywas July 3 2006 5:56 PM EDT

*sigh* it's me again. :)

Out of all the tattoos I've continuously found the ToE to do more level for level than any of the other tattoos. I've probably spent more money at the tattoo artist than on any other thing in CB. In the last month or so of my NCB I spent nearly two million testing out the different tattoos, pretty much to refresh my memory at how well they did level for level. (Remember that regardless of the tattoo type the pr stays the same,) my score dropped when I inked to a steel familiar by over 400k. I faired better with a fire familiar but still lost 200k in score. The ToE on my 500k mpr mage enabled me to fight to a score of 1.4 million. Not much lower than your million MPR single mage eh?

Remember the familiar tattoos do a few things: on the plus side they increase your damage sure, but they are also increasing your vulnerability to AMF by adding another DD spell. If your battles go to melee your FB mage toasts them, and if you're using an FF it toasts your mage.

The ToE on the other hand does a lot more for you. You reduce AMF damage - so actually what you're doing is cutting their AMF down, reducing their PR. It reduces their damage to you, again reducing their PR. But it also enables your HP to go further increasing YOUR PR.

I can't crunch numbers here which might be of more use to you, but that's 3 separate areas where it invisibly raises your PR. If you look at it that way most of the tattoos only really raise your PR in two areas - the familiar tattoos give you an extra body with HP/DD spell. The RoS increases your defensive enchantment, and reduces their DM. The ToA gives you extra XP split between a couple of stats and adds to your PTH. We won't mention the RBF - that attempts three with it's fiery bursts and fire defense and it's evasion (does it still have that?) but it does them all pretty badly.

Anyway I love the ToE. :)

QBRanger July 3 2006 6:01 PM EDT

On Koyaanisqatsi I have tried all the tattoos including the ROS. By far, the best is the TOE. With the ROS (pumping both my GA and my AS), the SF, the FF and the IF, I would lose to some mages occasionally and most tanks. With the TOE, I beat almost all the mages and some tanks.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 3 2006 6:29 PM EDT

Ranger, your current team is four minions. The ToE would work wonders with its aura reduction.

First, the AMF backalsh. Sute has a 3.2 million (or around there) FB, it might be more with increases from AGs (they're not shown on the stats page).

Versus that, AMF is 'teh weaksauce'. The highest AMF in the game is just over 1 Mil. OK, it can be stacked, and also get a bonus from items, but it doesn't come close.

AMF at equal level to the DD it faces reduces about 50% (Can't remeber exactly, maybe we can do some testing and answer this once and for all!) with non linear scaling depending on level differencies. So no AMF in the game is going to cast at 0.5 versus Joes FB.

Granted, the larger Joes FB gets, the more damage he'll take from a percentage reduction, but the less size of percentage that will be.

So Backlash isn't realy a problem for a DD that big (Sute, if you don't mind, what's an average % and amount you take from AMF backlashes?)

ToE/Endurance Damage reduction.

It's easy to test for the Backlash resistance, as this damage is a fixed amount, and CB worked out the formula for it a while ago. :) Again, I can't remember the specifics any more, but it's something like a direct reduction of 5% of the ToE (or Endurance) level.

This reduction is capped at 75% of the total damage done.

I'd heavily assume that the damage reduction granted by Endurace works in the same way, but it's of a higher percentage than the AMF Backlash resistance. Let's be generous, and assume 15% of a tattoos level is reduced from all damage taken, this is capped at 75% of the damage done.

A level 1 Million ToE would then reduce a maximum of 150,000 per hit. But it could be as little as 75, if you only take 100 points of damage.

Nothing to seeze at, by any means. Get a Tank hit you 4/5 times a round, and your quadrupling/quint-ing (lol! I know that's not correct.. >_< ) the amount of defense your Tattoo gives you.

Face a single large damage hit, and it only works once per round.

For a compariosn versus Damage tattoos, I'll make another generous assumption, that on average, DD spells (give or take which one you use...) infict 50% of thier level as damage. This is somewhat backed by Sute's number above.

In this case, a 1 Million DD familiar would pump out on average 500,000 damage per round (not counting ranged penalites for damage...).

If we face the two tatoos off against each other, the ToE reduces 30% of the damage a DD familiar (of equal size) would do. Facing 5 100K hits in a single round though, and the ToE would reduce a whopping 75% of all the damage done.

Versus a FB the size of Joes, it would reduce only 10% of his damage (on average and taking the FB to be 3 mil exactly...)

So, what will serve you better? The defense from a ToE, or the offense from a DD familiar?

That depends on your strategy. A single minion team if offense, pure and simple. While a four minion team (preferably with a massive AC wall) is more defensive. (But we all know offesnse is king in CB!)

If you've concetrated your XP into the games largest FB, and do 1.5 Mil per hit, your aim is to kill quick. Dishing out an extra 500K per round as opposed to soaking 150K seems to be better.

But the ToE shines when you face multi minion teams and multi hitting tanks.

Facing a single FB mage, a ToE will be overshadowed by extra damage.

So, to sum, what tattoo you use depends on what type of team you want to fight! ;)

(Sorry this went on so long, I'm hot and bothered, and the game has logged me out while I wrote this...)

QBsutekh137 July 3 2006 6:37 PM EDT

I am going with GL...depends on the need. I am simply not seeing a ToE being the most effective for a single minion. Just not. Like I said, even one more minion, my lean would go to the ToE, and Ranger's character has four minions and some AS. The ToE is a fairly obvious choice there. If I had four minions, I would aura it up as much as possible -- it's a huge advantage of the ToE in that case.

Johnny, I have a foggy memory... When is the last time you had a character in the top ten MPR and could have your score flirt with the top 15-20? I'm not saying your research and undying diligence aren't important.

But let me stress my point here... I am talking about single minion, high level fighting. It is my belief the conventional "ToE rules hands-down!" wisdom is far from correct given those parameters.

I will reiterate -- TuffBunny, if you try switching to an SF and want to switch back, I will pay half the switch back fee (200K). I'l CM him that too...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 3 2006 6:40 PM EDT

I'm sorry GL but you're just plain wrong, even a .20 AMF is going to kick back at least 100k a round vrs a 3 mil fb...

QBJohnnywas July 3 2006 6:41 PM EDT

Sut: Hey!! Ok my last NCB didn't go higher than about 1.4 mill, but the char before that Artful Dodger when it was UC was up to 1.7 mill and the original Jack Crow was top ten on several occasions. Admittedly because I specialized by preying on single FB mages but that particular char was a much lower PR than any of the teams around it.

I'll give in to the fact that to a certain degree the rules of the game change somewhat once you're into the upper levels. The huge amounts of damage at the top change how things work. But only to a small degree.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 3 2006 6:44 PM EDT

As soon as I can make it (I've got crappy rewards atm..) I'll stump up the other 200K. :)

It's not just down to your team, but what teams you want to face.

Face a Single FB mage, the ToE will provide little help.

Face a 5 minion fake tank team, and it'll reduce damage from five atackers on each of thier hits, every round, possibly reducing damage 25 times a round! In a situation like that, I'd say it would out perfrom any other tattoo. :)

But if your team is based around defense (High AC minion with PL backup) add in a ToE just to squeeze out every bit of damage reduction you can. :)

QBsutekh137 July 3 2006 6:49 PM EDT

I'm just looking at the huge DD and MPBs up here, and I don't see how a ToE can cope.

I promise I will check AMF backlash in a bit, just forgot again...gar.

QBsutekh137 July 3 2006 6:54 PM EDT

Here's my FB -- I never keep that stuff secret, ask any time, GL. *smile*

Fireball: 3,589,117/3,233,439 (454,117)

By the way, I think the max damage I can do is about 4 times the number in parentheses. That makes sense. Cb was always a four-minion game, so maybe Jonathan still has it set up such that the number in parentheses is what each character on a four-minion team would take. Right now, that happens to be close to one eighth the FB level, but I think that is not always the case. The number in parentheses has always been the "effect", so that's the number to focus on (again, in my opinion...)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 3 2006 6:58 PM EDT

Can we get someone with a ToE to post AMF blow back in melee with and without the it verses the same AMF (preferably a largish one)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 3 2006 7:01 PM EDT

Minions changed that to 5 times. :)

K, versus that FB, a 0.2 AMF will do;

0.2 * 0.4 * 454,117 * 5 = 181,646.8 damage per backlash.

A one mil ToE would reduce about 57,500 (I tihnk it's somewhere aorund 5.75% of level) or around 31.7%.

Joe has 1.1 Million HPs. Without a ToE it would take 7 rounds of backlash to kill him (from the backlash alone), With the ToE 9.

But, the thing to ask next (apart from is two extra round really worth it?) is what level must AMF be to get a 20% return versus 3.5 Mil?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 3 2006 7:02 PM EDT

Don't trust me Nov? ;) I did a load of testing on ToE Backlash reduction ages ago. I just can't remember the percent of the tattoo level. :P

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 3 2006 7:02 PM EDT

not much more than a mil, I had a 2.7 mil FB that got hit for .2+ by no less than 20 people. and why would he use a sissy little ToE like that, do the math on a appropo tattoo and you'll see the golden sunrise...2 more rounds of survival is HUGE btw.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 3 2006 7:11 PM EDT

OK, the largest ToE in the game is 2.5 Mil. that would reduce 143,750 from all AMF backlash damage.

For 20% facing Joe above, it would reduce the backlash to 37,897. But the reduction is capped at 136,235 (75#% of the backlash) so Joe would take 45,412 (or 25% of the backlash) every time.

He would then last the full 25 round.

7 rounds, 9 rounds or 25 rounds doesn't matter if you're killing opponents in 3-5 though. ;)

QBsutekh137 July 3 2006 7:13 PM EDT

Constant has a large AMF...Not sure what, but it is in the first column of attributes.

His AMF lands a 0.16 on me.

Round One backlash = 101722
Round Two backlash = 116253

Just to die, I faced the biggest AMF: 1,172,811 (on Elros -- he smokes me)

It lands a 0.26 on me.

Round One backlash: 165,298

Y'all see why I don't really care about backlash? I could focus on HP for a month and make myself last two or three extra rounds right there (as far as backlash goes). The net result is somewhat linear, and I can kep up with that.

Gallatin [Thanoscopter And You] July 3 2006 7:19 PM EDT

And what would you do after that, Sutekh?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 3 2006 7:20 PM EDT

I love it, offer a way in which to keep a single mage from AMF'in him self to death (a Max tat ToE) and he decides he's happy a smoldering mess...*snicker*

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 3 2006 7:26 PM EDT


"His AMF lands a 0.16 on me.

Round One backlash = 101722"

Plugging that back in;

0.16 * 0.4 * 0.7 (Ranged Penalty) * 454,117 * 5 = 101722.2


QBJohnnywas July 3 2006 7:34 PM EDT

Sut, I'll say one more thing before I go to bed. Have you tried a large ToE on your char yet? If you haven't try one out and see. Go on...

(If you haven't then why not???? Sometimes when I'm told by everyone how good something is I'll avoid what ever it is they're hyping up just out of principle. I hope that's not what you're doing! ;) )

G'night all!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 3 2006 7:37 PM EDT

Just to throw something else into this mix, have you considered droping a Tattoo al together and using a CoI? It would boost your large FB massivley. the largest in game (+18 and named) would increase your 3.2 Mil FB by 608,000. Taking your total FB to 4,197,117!

Not only would it increase your damage output, but increase your resistance to AMF and allow you to use an MCM for additional AC.

Contender maybe? ;)

QBsutekh137 July 3 2006 7:51 PM EDT

Johnny, find me a 1.6 million ToE, pay the xfer fees, and away I go. Beyond that, I trust my instinct -- I would be able to beat _different_ people, but not _better_ people. I would lose or draw to son of Lorthar for example, simply by definition (unless my AMF gained me a lot more than I am thinking).

Seran, after more HP I would pump FB again until I had the cash for a second minion... Really, what does ANYONE do "next"? This isn't rocket science... There aren't a million parameters to play with, only a few, and I've played with most of the big ones. As I just told Johnny, sometimes I don't even bother with certain ones. *smile* It's not that I'm right, it's just that the differences are negligible enough that I don't care. ** There are no slam dunks in this game **

However, deciding how I can arrange my weekend to utilize all my BA.... Now, THAT'S a strategy. It's really the only strategy (other than USD, which is a corollary to longevity). OK, I have essentially hijacked my own thread now... *grin*

QBsutekh137 July 3 2006 7:54 PM EDT

GL, That is a rather valid idea. Then put the RoE on the new minion (when I get one) to build his HP faster -- or put the SF on him. *smile* You're so smart...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 3 2006 8:09 PM EDT


*Blows rasberries*

It just hit me that a Coi would provide the same benefit was a ToE. Backlash reduction, and Damage reduction. With an added increase to damage output for the icingon the cake.

Now, what you have to think about is what Amulet will help a single Mage?

Get a CoI and MCM and slap an AoAC on Joe! ;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 3 2006 8:17 PM EDT

the problem with increasing DD as a method of amf bb reduction is that it's half as effective due to the increased amount of damage you do, where as the ToE (as you have shown) can bring a mage up close to a tank for living through some melee rounds.

Sut: you're still thinking about a quick kill mentality, which is good I guess, but it will likely leave you in a similar position, even after you've spent hundreds (err tens of millions) on minions. Mantra's struggles with Cosmos documented just how painful multi minion fb teams are up top.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 3 2006 8:29 PM EDT

True Nov! :) Guess we need to try to figure out the DD versus AMF curve and se when it becomes better to take the linear increase in damage and a curved decrease in AMF percent, and when it just makes you take more backlash! >_<

AdminNightStrike July 3 2006 8:56 PM EDT

Given that Sutekh is referring to the practicality of a ToE strictly in high-level fighting, I will mention that there is a solid wall at about 1.5M score. I got there when my MPR was under about 450k, and I haven't been able to pass it. I've since approached 600k and I have about 500k untrained XP on each of two minions (1m XP total). I've seen numerous other NCBs hit this wall around 500kMPR and 1.5M score. I don't know why that is, but it may be related to inflated scores due to fighting essentially dormant characters. Once you hit this level, everyone that fights you is above you, and they pummel you to no end, cutting your score (and your CPs) to pieces.

My point being that data below this apparent wall at 1.5M score / 500kMPR doesn't really apply to claims regarding the ToE up in the high ranks.

QBsutekh137 July 3 2006 9:37 PM EDT

NS, a salient point... There;s that "feeling" you get...when things work and when don't (the sign of a very balance game, I don't doubt, when human intuition has to fortify the melodrama *smile*)

GL, I was serious abou tthe CoI idea -- it's something to mull over.

I would never be Cosmos. My main minion is going to be so very huge, and he will never be diluted by more than one other minion. WM. That's as far as it would get. One huge, concentrated, NW-ready device (the Wall), and one genitals-to-the-wall cold-blooded (can an FB mage be _cold_ blooded?) killer to lay waste (the Mage). That's it. If I went WWM it would only be if I had extra USD lying around to build a mage-busting wall and another pure AC wall. Then again, why not spend that money on pure AC? Again, the mouth waters at novice's Wall.

I love you all.

AdminNightStrike July 3 2006 10:00 PM EDT

There is a PR difference between using a CoI to boost your FB (diminishing AMF) vice a ToE to cut the AMF.

To further my previous point, I think any strat which incorporates fast growth will get you to that 1.5/500 mark where the real game actually begins. Hence why a RoE is really the best supporter item ever (going by the supporter item definition as an item that runs out of benefit after a period of time). So, really, any strat, including this idea of a non-tattooed CoI mage, should only be evaluated in the 1.5M+ score range. Until then, a RoE is paramount.

I think this also gives your first post even more merit -- if strats only matter after 1.5M, and you can get there quickly with an RoE, then the validity of a single mage with a ToE must be tested above 1.5M score. And, from your numbers, it would seem that it might not be the best option.

What would be wrong with a single minion ditching the RoE at 1.5M, picking up the MCM and CoI, and not using either a tattoo OR a second minion? Stay single minion with no tattoo, and spend the PR on armor. As long as you can still win fights in the 1.5M+ market, do you have a need for a second minion? Your per-minion rewards will be higher. Will adding a second minion cut your rewards by less than one-half?

QBsutekh137 July 4 2006 2:43 AM EDT

Someone is asking valid questions.

Though, playing the NW or minion game on PR probably isn't going to gain much. Tattoo PR is "concentrated", and an armored mage has never been a viable option. My OP tries to show that the whole landscape needs to be considered, yet the choice is still iffy-iffy -- I can gun for MPR, or I can go for slightly less MPR but grow a tattoo along with me... Choice! The life-blood of CB!

It is that very reason that things like clans gall me so much (Ha ha! I brought it back to clans! I am the ANTI-CHRIST!!!!!). Clans are not a choice. You might as well clan up. Everything relates to them, everything about them is a shrug-might-as-well. There are moments when being free of a clan offer freedom in the fight list, but that lasts about, oh, five minutes. Believe me, even _I_ had to cave, and I should have caved sooner. Read any postings on clans. Everyone is, "oh, might as well". Clan alignments change as often as the moon. It's just everyone scrambling around finding the best bonuses. There's no loyalty (note: loyalty means a matter of months, not days or weeks), there's no thought. It

If an item were introduced that was a "must-have" (like the CoBF used to be), many folks would regularly be posting about how non-fun the concept was. Newsflash, folks -- clans have become an artificial "must-have". A monument with no purpose. And no one cares. Not even me (except for the occasional rant, long live GDI).

Gah, it's late and I'm angry. Never a good combination. Good night.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 4 2006 2:49 AM EDT

Hah let me help you hijack your thread here...

There are most certainly clanners who are in it for the fun of it rather than just a quick bonus. I've been suprised by the helpfulness I've found when I settled down and found some folks who wanted to help each other and build a clan without being point crazed. the NCB puts a strain on clans, and you need folks willing to suffer for a month while you can't afford to buy BA.

QBsutekh137 July 4 2006 3:09 AM EDT

Then God Bless, and rue the day when those folks leave you for no apparent reason. More power to you.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 4 2006 3:17 AM EDT


I'm going to de rail the thread a little more. I'm using a ToE on my current NCB two Mage set up. But I'm now considering trying out different tattoos.

I'm not interested in a familiar. Without the ability to give them any AC, my PL mage would take too much damage from attacks hitting the familiar.

What I am considering is either a RoS on the front mage, too boost AS and give it some DM protection (Which would also allow me to equip a MCM and CoI on my mage) or a RBF on my rear Mage.

Does anyone know if melee damage absorbed by PL sets off a RBF burn? I know it doesn't triger GA.

QBJohnnywas July 4 2006 6:09 AM EDT

I've slept on this and I'm liking Nightstrike's option of staying as you are.


If you are successful as you are at the level you are fighting why change what is working?


It took me a while to come to that conclusion today. But it wasn't without a lot of thinking. Which annoys me. It's hot and I'm bothered.

Fighting above a certain point is different as you point out. Nightstrike describes the 'wall' where it changes as being about 1.5 million score at the moment. My time nearer the top ranks found that that wall or ceiling normally sits about the beginning of the top 40 player standings.

Why is it there? There's a lot of reasons, one being that above that area takes a different kind of fighting. Once you hit that point you can either beat the people around you or you can't. There generally is no middle ground, where a few tweaks makes a difference. The tweaks have to be big ones to expand your fightlist and move up. A boost in your NW through bigger weapons or tattoos. A boost in your MPR through adding other minions. And other than that it's a waiting game, where you are hoping new blood appears that you can destroy, or that one of the other people digging in their heels gives up and a space opens up.

It's a lot like the game of Risk, where you are trying to hold onto as many territories as you can without spreading yourself too thin. A lot of to-ing and fro-ing, push and pull. That push and pull is probably the main reason I get bored when I've fought that high. And for me the only pleasure by then was boosting my score and fighting to keep it at a certain level.

So what to do if you stay single?

You can beat Son of Lohar, although in that push and pull manner he can beat Elros who can beat you.

Why can he beat Elros if you can't? Some of that is the ToE, reducing damage received and cutting AMF damage. What else he is doing is wearing DB's. More damage reduction. Evasion/DB's as you well know cut PTH, meaning those big tanks don't hit you quite as often, sparing you a lot of damage.

Who are the main foes you can't defeat at that level? If it some of the tank teams why not look at getting some DB's and putting your money there?

You can keep playing the push pull game of reacting to others attacks by upping your own attack. I know you've done it before. But if you can why not be preventative? Reducing other people's damage in the first place means that you don't have to boost your own so much. And puts you more in control of the fight.

I'm rambling now. But I think I'm making sense somewhere in the midst of this...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 4 2006 9:24 AM EDT

More office sauna fueled thoughts! :D

For a Two minion team, a RoS added 50% of it's level to the ED attached to it. Let's assume this is AS. For those two minions, each receives 1/2 (so 25% of the Tattoo's level) as extra HPs.

Going with a ToE reducing 15% of it's level (and assuming 5% Aura) if both minions are hit in a round (20% of damage reduced in total) the fight would have to last three round, or more precisly both minions hit three times each (from a multi hitting tank in one round or three rounds of a single hitting DD for example) for the ToE to become better than the RoS.

If the fights last a lot longer than the hits, the ToE starts to outperfrom the RoS (only on psuedo HPs, the RoS provides other benefits), but this assumes the ToE is working at 100%, and that it's not capped at 75% of the damage done to you.

Versus small damage, enough to make the ToE work at it's cap, extra HPs from a RoS boosted AS become more useful. :/

Flamey July 4 2006 9:54 AM EDT

So, forgive me if i didn't read some of the posts.

i think your looking at kill, kill, kill.

so, go SF 2 minions.

get a PL battery with an SF on that, training HP and PL, reducing damage taken on SF and FB. obviously a AoI

and train even less HP and more FB letting you do monster damage, as you will be absorbed by the PL battery.

point of this is too get your FB even higher and probably raising your HP. (I'm pretty sure doing this would be better than going solo with a SF, damage wise, please somebody tell me if I am wrong)

getting a CoI would benefit you a lot, just with AG +10 and CoI +15 you can get a 25% increase which is major at your level, dishing out even more damage.

somebody can answer this, if you go without a tattoo and get CoI and AG and stay solo, will it be more effective than going 2 minions with SF. I believe in this case ToE is out of the question, various examples show its much more useless than the SF.

Flamey July 4 2006 9:56 AM EDT

this is random idea probably suggested. (sorry, for the double post)

have you thought of untraining Enchantments and put that into FB or HP. then get an enchanter and focus on AMF/GA with the SF?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 4 2006 10:04 AM EDT

Flamey, if you want a PL battery, don't use a familiar.

PL works best when coupled with taking damage from a well armoured target. Familiars can't get any AC, so the PL battery will take just nearly un mitigated damage.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] July 4 2006 10:35 AM EDT

ok, some thoughts - firstly a question, does increasing your DD actually result in more damage to you versus a given AMF? Yes you do more damage (so more backlash potential) but the % that the AMF hits you for is reduced, I don't know how this works out but I'm guessing damage to you will stay about the same.

Yes you are all offense but there is still a balance to be struck and I think that a ToE (thanks to the amf reduction) helps with that balance allowing you to put even more into your DD. Whether the AMF reduction alone is worth the PR increase is the question though and about this I'm unsure. Its also a tough call as to whether this is a better route than sticking with the RoE.

This theoretical stuff is all very well but where you are strategy decisions tend to become very opponent specific. I can say that ToE is generally the best tattoo for a single mage (which I grudgingly admit even though I am a single mage/DD familiar fanboy) but without looking at your fight play by plays and inspecting potential opponents its hard to say what is best for you. (Actually ToE may not be best since the weapon changes but its too early to tell) I do believe the familiar strategy is viable and with careful list management could get better returns going up through the ranks, though 2 minion is my favored setup for a DD familiar.

I wouldn't even consider going without a tattoo/rune due to the growth factor.

QBsutekh137 July 4 2006 11:19 AM EDT

Wow, lots of good stuff while I slumbered!

I think a lot of these ideas lead me all the way back to my original idea (original as in all the way back before I even started the NCB) -- I need a second minion. Doesn't really matter what I do in the meantime, as long as I can just keep growing MPR and/or a tattoo. I will be saving my cash (so that writes off the DB and CoI ideas for now) and buying a wall of pure HP, equipping a bunch of armor I have lying around. This will take many, many months, as a new minion will probably cost around 25 or 26 million by the time I have that sort of money (at least). I may decide to inject a bit of Cougars USD in, since I am still in the black as far as USD made from CB2.

Unlearning my AMF and GA might help, but I really don't have much in them. Every time I get anxious to untrain them, I realize I am doing so just because I am craving change, not because it is even worth the untrain losses... My GA is only 100K, and will be nice to have (maybe even a big bigger) once I get a wall.

TuffBunny101 [girl power] July 5 2006 7:10 PM EDT

I hate to say it but for a single minion like myself inking my 2.3mil TOE to a SF was the best thing for me

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 5 2006 7:12 PM EDT

:D If you want to ink it back to a ToE, let me know and I'll stump up 200K for the costs as promised! ;)

QBsutekh137 July 5 2006 7:22 PM EDT

Can you describe how it helped? Beating more people? Beating certain people more consistently? Any good stories for us? I love information, even if it is only anecdotal!

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 5 2006 11:43 PM EDT

I will take a stab at it without the data. Its about damage points. Minions that cause damage. His 1.6 mil HP take him through ranged on their own, without or without the ToE. With two constant fairly sizable (especially if the SF is max tattoo) damage points compared to one. Even as both magical attacks, the twins are powerful. You prove yourself, that AMF is not enough to catch up to your fireball now, its not enough for his tattoo's MM either. I bet he wipes them up. Especially ones he clobbers with a big DM. And guess what he gets that extra minion you have been talking about, the 25mil dollar one, the one that spreads FB damage out even for a round, the one that practically doubles your HP need to kill your team, for 800K.

A Lesser AR of 15 [Red Permanent Assurance] July 6 2006 2:03 AM EDT

ToE is not for SFBMs higher up. Period.
Believe I mentioned this to you while you were still in NP TuffBunny, if not to you infront of you, but digressed in the same line because of the ink cost saying 300k mpr would be a changing point. Whom ever it was they weren't listening. Not going to great lengths on this issue for it seems oddly silly to me, whether the wep buff is involved or not.
Simply put with what I tell others.... Don't put such def. on an off. minion if the goal is to kill in ranged. Good for clanees, not for growth.
The following is more for newbs.
As politically incorrect as the previous statement is even to me, having less to answer for while getting the point across is worth what isn't mentioned.
To balance the issue, the big problem with fams is the best reason to have a ToE, upkeep. Doesn't need to be max tat for best results because you could get the same results in many of the same battles. ToEs are almost priceless in the lowers due to the large range of chars to be taken from the lists. Firmly believing ltoes to be the best lesser for this reason. With this peripheral view, score seems short sighted in comparison with the fam users. Worked with plenty of newbs to see this in action. ToE on a single tank is great. They need to see melee. See little reason to have a ToE on SMs when an FF or SF offers far more progression while working towards the main goal, which is kill them before they kill you.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 6 2006 3:05 AM EDT

Also, Familiars get 100% of thier level in DD and an extra 10% in HPs. :)

Gallatin [Thanoscopter And You] July 6 2006 3:08 AM EDT

Isn't it 20%?

BadFish July 6 2006 3:09 AM EDT

it is in fact 20% extra exp into their hp

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 6 2006 3:11 AM EDT

WooT! :D

All I remember is;

"Jonathan, March 18 2005 4:52 PM EST
DD familiars now train 10% of lvl as HP. Spell trained is not decreased. (Yes, this adds up to 110%.)"

Where was this changed to 20%?

QBJohnnywas July 6 2006 3:12 AM EDT

Oh dear. Seran knows more than GL about CB.....

Gallatin [Thanoscopter And You] July 6 2006 3:58 AM EDT

And why is that bad? :P

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 6 2006 4:40 AM EDT

Unlike my dad, I don't think I know everything and can take being corrected when I'm wrong! ;)

Growing up with him was difficult...

Flamey July 6 2006 9:07 AM EDT

do we get a proper conclusion saying a Familiar is better than ToE?

just for future references. it would be nice to know :-)

QBsutekh137 July 6 2006 10:12 AM EDT

There's not really "better" in the world of CB, but it would appear that ToE isn't always the only option, especially for single mages at high levels.

Is that conclusive enough for you? *smile*
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001qQh">ToE effectiveness?</a>