The next step (in General)

AdminNightStrike July 5 2006 5:48 PM EDT

There's my character currently. I have about a million untrained XP on each minion. My NCB expires in a day or so (and yes, it's still at 151%, has been the whole time). I can't grow past a score of 1.5M (a high of 1.65M). What do you all suggest?

QBRanger July 5 2006 5:57 PM EDT

First, What is the reasoning of PL on your tank? You should have BL or archery on it now. The PL should be on your enchanter letting your tank live longer.

Second, To grow further you will likely need to buy new minions. Either that or upgrade your BoNE a lot more.

Third, I would lose the MC on the tank and rent a TSA if you cannot afford it. They can be found in rentals quite cheap. You might want to spend the xp on that minion raising your str to do a lot more damage.

Fourth, With the buff to weapons, you likely want to use a bow, even a compound bow should help a lot. I assume your tattoo is a TOE and such a tattoo works perfectly vs GA, which is the main problem with using a bow right now.

These are just quick suggestions.

Flamey July 5 2006 6:27 PM EDT

put PL to the enchanter, it might as well reduce damage done to your tank.

upgrade the BoNE, especially the '+'

get at least one ST-bonusing item. either TSA or Tulks, imo you should get Tulks just for the AC if you want.

if you wish to go TSA, its quite cheap to get nowadays with the AoI, and upgrading to +25 is not a lot, you could get a forger to do it.

maybe get EGs if you go TSA to even out the Bonus.

your probably low on money, so you already know the obvious items, just can't afford it.

maybe with the exp to spend you can train more into AS, due to recent changes AMF is becoming less useful.

and with that you can train less or none in AS and equally train ST and DX.

this is just my opinion do whatever you wish :)

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 5 2006 6:51 PM EDT

No question get the PL off the tank.

No question get a decent ranged weapon for your tank.

Archery or BL on the tank (and I am liking the new improved archery)

Agree with Flame, less in AMF more in AS.

On the tank crank up your DX and let items boost your ST OR crank up your ST and let items boost your DX. Skimp on HP and let the AS do some of that for you.

AdminNightStrike July 5 2006 6:51 PM EDT

Ranger: the tattoo is a SF, the main damage dealer. Further, it's a wall, not a tank. The minimal str/dx/weapon is just there to take care of any enchanter cleanup that might be left over should the SF die. The SF is the main damage dealer.

BootyGod July 5 2006 6:54 PM EDT

Was I the only one who saw that lol? Ranged weapons aren't one because they would do nothing... as tank can't reach enchanter until later rounds... I think...

AdminNightStrike July 5 2006 6:54 PM EDT

Sefton: haha... not only is it a wall, but it was your idea for a wall =) =). It was the smaller of the two minions, so you suggested dumping everything into HP to leverage the large AS on the enchanter, which is the largest minion by a metric ton, with minimal ST/DX and just enough PL to take all the damage.

BootyGod July 5 2006 6:57 PM EDT

Umm... get rid of some of the DX and put it in ST. If it's main purpose is enchanter kill and wall damage you only need like 10k DX. Add it to ST. Or more HP or PL.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 5 2006 6:59 PM EDT

PL is a waste on walls.

You want PL on another minion (Protected by a AoI if necessary). The wall takes damage, which is reduced firat by it's massive AC (and other protections) then the PL minion takes that reduced damage and takes another 10% off of it.

PL is wasted on a minion with high AC. You SF is getting hit with no AC, then your AC wall is taking 90% of that damage, which ignores his massive AC.

Get PL off the wall. :)

QBRanger July 5 2006 7:00 PM EDT


You only need like 5k dex at most to double hit 20 dex enchanters/walls.

I would still try to rent a nice TSA and see how it goes. You will get a lot of magic resistance and a lot of free strength.

Shake Some Action July 5 2006 7:00 PM EDT

Okay, maybe I've been misunderstanding something. But I thought when PL kicked in, it ignored the AC on the minion with PL and just reduced damage by a straight 10%. If that is the case than using PL on a heavily AC'd minion seems wasteful.

So basically, even if that's not a tank, I'd still drop PL.

Flamey July 5 2006 7:01 PM EDT

how were we to know that was a SF.

that completely changes things, though you can still get the Tulks and maybe get an AC?

and the AMF/AS thing is still good, you still want more AS.

BootyGod July 5 2006 7:02 PM EDT

And let the MM get nuked by every CoC and FB in the game? Ouch... seems risky for the benefit...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 5 2006 7:03 PM EDT

Flamey, mouse over the name? ;)

GW, what change seems risky?

BootyGod July 5 2006 7:04 PM EDT

Taking PL off wall..

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 5 2006 7:06 PM EDT

Stick it on your E. It's the same protection for your SF. If you need to, train some natural HPs on your E.

If you keep PL on your wall, you might as well strip it of it's heavy AC items and make it another enchanter. You AC is doing nothing for you.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 5 2006 7:06 PM EDT

Yah the image didnt spell out the SF, and my confusion went from there. Try this....move the enchanter with the SF to the back and stick a base ranged weapon on him. That way, your Wall is in front for all frontal assaults, your enchanter is in the back for all MM and the SF will appear between them. Where to put the PL, can be tricky in this situation, but I like it on the Wall even with him in front with the vast majority of the HP on him and the decent armor should do well.

Also part of my confusion was the high DX. You dont need it that high. Also make CERTAIN the enchanting cleaning weapons add ZERO PR via NW.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 5 2006 7:11 PM EDT

Sef, in that case, I'd still stick PL on the E at the back.

The wall is doing it's job stopping tanks, but FB/CoC will melt it like a hot knife. It'll take little due to it's AC, but it will take the full amount from the other two minions.

Moving the PL to the back increases your tank protection, decreases the amount you take from FB/CoC while increasing MM damage by 10%.

Besides, after casting AS and spawning the SF, what else is that minion doing but taking hits? Let the Wall last longer, it's got (even if its samll) a damage capacity. :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 5 2006 7:23 PM EDT

Maybe a better suggestion.

Move the minions around as Sef suggests, then add PL to the E. Keep PL on the Wall, but make sure the E's is larger.

That way, the E will provide some use and when it dies the large HP wall can continue to keep the SF alive, which is your main damage dealer! :D

Job done!

AdminNightStrike July 5 2006 8:03 PM EDT

Ok, first, my apologies about the named SF. I forgot it was named, actually =). Also, Sefton, when you originally suggested making the new minion a wall, I was using a FF. I still have that FF at about the same level as this SF -- it's just that the battles were lasting into ranged and it was killing everyone. So, I switched.

Now, regarding the other suggestions, of which there are many:

First, I'll do as everyone agrees and drop the DX to 5k.

Sefton, regarding the weapon, it's massively small compared to my weapon allowance.

The idea of putting PL on both minions with a larger one on the enchanter is something I've wanted to do for a while, but was held back for the simple fact that I didn't want to spread the XP that thinly on the enchanter. However, I guess having a million in the bank allows some leeway =).

This concept of how AC works with PL is interesting, and makes a lot of sense. I would want the wall to be hit first and mitigate all the damage (the TSA as ranger suggests will help.. question: how does it stack with the mage shield?)

This will be the proposed minion order: W, SF, E

Remaining questions: What is an appropriate ST level for the enchanter-cleaning wall? Should I dump the million+st/dx XP into HP on the wall? What is a good AMF/AS ratio to maintain on the enchanter? GL, can you explain this: "while increasing MM damage by 10%." ?

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 5 2006 11:30 PM EDT

Appropriate ST is so relative, its based on the opponents you want to beat (not on the ones you are beating now a common misperception). Find the next guy on the ladder or next few guys with an enchanter needs killing, figure out on average your DI is for the wall and how much your opponent has HP wise with AS and all that, if the wall does more damage does it win the fight, etc....

HP is by far the best possible place for exp on a wall. HP can only be removed by damage, no spell, no enchantment, so its never a bad choice. Is there a better choice....maybe, sometimes its as simple as a minor GS or EC on the wall. To me it is all about the next guys, the ones I want to beat. Lots of large DM's to face....forget small enchantments, got some small hastes and GS beefing up enchanters, maybe some EC, etc....

You know you are asking those end questions, ones only you can really answer if you want to, I mean are mages beating you? Big DM's? Big tanks chewing massive HP? Its all about how its going now. Yah I dont unlearn and yah sometimes I hit a wall takes awhile getting round because Im too far invested the other way. But where are you going? Me, Im going around the next few, then the next few, etc.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 5 2006 11:31 PM EDT

P.S. that process of finding out the best ratio, appropriate amount, etc is 80% of the fun for me, because when you find it, and you start to rise on your hard work, well is there a better way?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 6 2006 3:02 AM EDT

NS, with Wall at the front and E at the back, with PL only on the Wall, any incoming MM will do 100% damage tot he E, then that turns into 90% damage on the Wall.

With a Higher PL on the E, MM damage will hit him and stay there, for 100% damage. :)

I hope this helps! ;)

AdminNightStrike July 6 2006 9:36 AM EDT

Well, this new idea works slightly better. I jumped a little in score and added larger opponents to my list. I guess the biggest obstacle to overcome is the fact that there are only 59 people above me in score now. That's a small pool with a steep rake in PR. Sefton, what you suggest I've been doing for a while -- always look higher. Now I just have to realize that I won't be leapfrogging over 20 people at once anymore.

Thanks for the strat advice, guys. I'll let you know in a little bit how well it's worked.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 6 2006 9:40 AM EDT


AdminNightStrike July 6 2006 6:48 PM EDT

I'm now ranked #11 for scores for 2-minion chars. Thanks!

Hey, does anyone have a TSA I could borrow to get a feel for a good sized one to buy? I still want to implement ranger's idea for the TSA, as well as boost the AC of my wall.

AdminNightStrike July 6 2006 6:50 PM EDT

Sefton, regarding HP, what do you think a good level is to train HP on the enchanter? There's a point at which the XP investment becomes too large to warrant training that instead of the AS that he also casts. How do you find that sweet spot?

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 6 2006 9:01 PM EDT

I try to do it all by cost benefit in relation to rewards. When I notice I am putting more untrained exp and getting less change in my stats, I tend to pay attention. It seems to happen for me in like terraces, where I get to say 10 per and train it to the 11 cusp and hold it look for other ways to spend it. Then you start earing more and more exp as you rise, soon your think ok I will push it to 12, eventually you push it to 15 and then its mostly by feel alone I think.

So again these questions are hard for me to give a definate ratio, and honestly its one of the reasons Im still here. There is no hard and fast formula, more a fluid moving target based upon which way the changelog blows.

The answer to every one of your questions changed drastically when tanks were given a new life, wait three month or however long it will be, and they are likely to change again.

AdminNightStrike July 10 2006 10:08 PM EDT

Sefton, I'm trying to do as you describe. I pushed it to level 8123. I think I'm going to base level jumps on the XP differences. As in, gauge the amount of XP required to go from 7xp/level to 8xp/level.

I think I cannot go further with a minion described as a "wall" without at LEAST one of either an Amulet of AC, CML, or a TSA on the first minion. What do you all suggest, and what size? I still have no idea how to gauge PR impact (I just try to keep it as low as possible).

AdminNightStrike July 13 2006 7:55 PM EDT

I made the Top Ten for 2 minion chars!!
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