Supporter items poll discussion thread (in General)


AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 16 2006 11:50 AM EDT

Since it's semi on topic at the moment, I'm going to revisit my VB rant now that Nymandus and his freak show are back to beating me after I move to an even more well balanced setup, The VB is essentially the most powerful melee weapon in game, don't believe me, look at how many folks are about to begin strats centered around it. Without his less than 10 mil NW VB Nymandus would like everyone else have to deal with 23 MIL worth of AC, but because 40% of my AC just vanishes at the sight of his mighty Vorp...

The situation with the MgS isn't all that different, you have a supporter item directly used to combat a group of standard strats. This seems to be coming around to being a constant here, and I think Jon is smart in having moved from pay for items that are mostly mediocre, to items that tend to be a requirement. If you see things differently or have a better idea about what Jon is thinking as to the role of supporter items, I'd like to hear it.

The fact that the most common rare melee weapon is harder to find for sale than the top weapons is obscene, by the next change month it's going to be a question of who isn't using the VB. Which will be lots of fun to see Jon FINALLY nerf that piece of trash.

th00p July 16 2006 12:00 PM EDT

I, th00p_Beee, officially sign the petition to get VB's changed, to where the ignore less of the AC.(maybe 15-20%)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 16 2006 12:02 PM EDT

Why not tie the AC reduction ot the VBs X?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 16 2006 12:04 PM EDT

because it's a freaking supporter item GL, not the second coming,
you really want to see it take off, give it chance to be made better.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 16 2006 12:06 PM EDT

Eh?

I was tlaking nof not only limiting it's AC reduction, but also making a X1+1 VB not as great at AC reuction as a x500 one.

The MgS reduces DD by an amount equal to its plus. Why not follow the same formula for the VB?

Not at 1% ignore AC per 'x', that would be way overpowered! ;)

AdminNightStrike July 16 2006 12:10 PM EDT

You could really make it similar to the mage shield and have all of the the "X" added to it not actually add to damage, but instead to AC reduction. Then, all damage comes from strength. The mage shield doesn't actually add to AC, just to DD reduction. I suppose it'd be more fair do do this with the plus-to-hit on the vorpal blade, and not the damage modifier.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 16 2006 12:14 PM EDT

Should supporter items be viable above the 1.5 mil score mark?

Obviously if it nerfs the VB I don't care what form it takes, but any opportunity to make the situation worse makes me cringe...
At least if you had to pay to get the higher AC ignorance I wouldn't be complaining quite so loudly. I could see something on the level of .1% of AC per X, so at 1000 you'd shave 10%, and so on, then the VB is really set for the long hard haul of the top weapons, instead of being given a free pass to poke holes in people.

{Quitter}Gah July 16 2006 1:44 PM EDT

Well.. it'd be better if the ac reduction wasn't upgraded linearly.. cause then they low x ones will be useless, and the high x ones would be too powerful

QBRanger July 16 2006 1:55 PM EDT

I'll ask these question in answer to the rants above:

1) How many of the top 25 teams use the VB? None as I can see. Why? the leech of the MH or Both are far better and far more useful. I am using a VB now on my minitank/wall while my MH is getting forged so please do not count me as a VB user.

2) How many of the top 25 teams use the MgS? Over 50%. That item is the antithesis of the supporter item.

3) How many of the other supporter items are used by over 1/2 the top 25 character?
ROE? no
VB? no
MgS? yes
TSA? borderline
TOJ? no
AOI? yes

IMO, the AOI is a direct result of the recent changes to MM. It will have usefulness to the endgame as will the MgS.

So the proper ranting would be about the MgS and not the VB.

But as I am a mage team in this incarnation, one can say I am a bit biased.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 16 2006 2:06 PM EDT

While the current group of folks up top are not yet VB users, I think the massive number of VB centered teams on the way up should even be obvious even to those who've been at the top so long they don't quite notice what happens below 1 mil MPR.

QBRanger July 16 2006 2:13 PM EDT

While I will agree the VB makes the Bone and Els obsolete, the inate VA on the MH and BoTH make it far more useful at the higher MPR's of the game. Even a MH will get through a wall, then the leech of the MH makes it quite the bomb.

And those of us "at the top" do notice what is going on below 1 million MPR. However, with so many people to attack at that range, one does not need the "best" items/strategy to be successful.

However, at the top, one needs to have the very best equipment and the MH is proven to be the best by all those there.

AdminNightStrike July 16 2006 2:23 PM EDT

"2) How many of the top 25 teams use the MgS? Over 50%. That item is the antithesis of the supporter item."

Indeed.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 16 2006 3:01 PM EDT

The MH is great if someone with a VB at 1/3 your weapons NW and less than half of your AC's NW doesn't come along and kill you in two rounds. If there isn't a VB as a main weapon in the top 5 by next change month I'll eat my HoD.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 16 2006 3:04 PM EDT

I agree that the innate VA on the MH and BTh is very powerful.

That plus the cheapest upgrade costs...

QBRanger July 16 2006 3:34 PM EDT

Well perhaps novice has a point.

IE:

Vs The Lega using: Carsomyr [84x2800] (+120) worth $46,073,257
Gera tapped Prophecies with Carsomyr [41717]-an average blow

Vs Nymandus using: The Reaver [75x1000] (+50) worth $11,183,682
Nymandus clove Prophecies with The Reaver [123714]-an average blow

Prophecies has 358 AC and I use a TOE.

Very different indeed!!!!!!!!

Adminedyit July 16 2006 3:56 PM EDT

OK i say it again, VB is NOT over powered. Carsomyr [84x2800] (+120) look at that +120, The Reaver [75x1000] (+50), look at that +50. Yes the "X" upgrade is dirt cheap now but the cost to upgrade the "+" is still the same. How many hits did Carsomyr get a round compaired to how many hits did The Reaver get per round? (if you don't mind Ranger) And another question how many of the top 25 have big pair of DB? Surely they have a pair big enough to negate the + on a VB. I don't think anyone can (wants to spend what it costs to get) a VB to the +100 and up range.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 16 2006 4:11 PM EDT

You'll be suprised to see what people are willing to pay for in order to guarantee more than double damage verses many chars, add a ToA and you've no need to up the + on your weapon, Nymandus scores easy triple hits on me with 500k dex on my tank. No one else in game does that kind of damage to my tank without owning a $400+ weapon.

Adminedyit July 16 2006 4:33 PM EDT

All I'm saying novice is with a relatively small set of DB you offset his +50 PTH

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 16 2006 4:42 PM EDT

Sure I could edy, but as a result I'd never see 350 AC, let alone 400, and he'd still be doing double hits for more than almost anyone else in game. The 40% reduction in AC/End/Prot is way, way too much, consider the cost difference between the x of the VB and the price of real armor, A VB essentially negates more than 3/4 of my Armor NW because of the upgrade curve, and it only gets worse from there as AC goes up. The VB gets better as it gets higher in the ranks, not worse.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 16 2006 4:45 PM EDT

I will add that in my last thread someone suggested lumping all weapons with special abilities into a power weapons section that restricted it's use with tats, As ugly as it would be, I really really like this idea, the BoNE needs love badly, and PL isn't enough to knock the Morg off it's perch on top.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 16 2006 4:55 PM EDT

Look closely at the blows and x that ranger posted, that's more than double the damage with around 1/3 the x, and a lower STR (by 30k) to boot! I don't see how this is sensible.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 16 2006 5:10 PM EDT

"I will add that in my last thread someone suggested lumping all weapons with special abilities into a power weapons section that restricted it's use with tats, As ugly as it would be, I really really like this idea, the BoNE needs love badly, and PL isn't enough to knock the Morg off it's perch on top."

:D

Hehehehehehehe

:D

Adminedyit July 16 2006 5:25 PM EDT

So the one chink to a huge AC needs to be nerfed? So when you or someone else gets 477 or what ever the mythical AC number is we should all just sit back and realize we cant hurt you? 40% of 400 is 160 that would leave an effective AC of 240. And as for AC novice, I'd rather not be hit by a tank at all than reduce damage taken.

Adminedyit July 16 2006 5:28 PM EDT

And the VB is only overpowered against you big AC guys :) against any other person it does less damage than a MH.

Shake Some Action July 16 2006 5:28 PM EDT

Novice, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't i see you say last week that you use High AC and a ToE because it is "overpowered"? So doesn't the VB actually bring balance to the world? I mean it makes no difference to me.. all you darn tanks pound out 1million damage per round in melee against me, regardless of weapon choice :).

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 16 2006 5:52 PM EDT

High AC needs a counter. It needed on in CB1 and need one here.

Decay really don't cut it. ;)

The VB is a good choice, but too much. Ever other item (bar the two VA weapons, but they get lumped in here as well...) that has a 'special' property (well, bar the AoI I suppose...) has it's special based off of some upgrade stat.

TSA/MgS(and Gi?) have it off armour plus. A/EXBows have it off weapon 'x'.

Shouldn't we make the VB special (and the MH/BTh special) based off of the size of the weapon somehow?

ScY July 16 2006 6:00 PM EDT

to what edy just said:

hypothetically...

477 AC (or 100.17% damage reduction) a vorpal blade which does 100,000 damage agenst a minion with 0 AC hits the minion wearing 477 AC:
the vorpal blade ignored 40% of the AC on the 477 minion, effectivly hitting a minion with 286 AC
286 AC is effectivly a 60.06 damage reduction

so the 100k damage (that the vorpal blade would be doing to a minion with 0 AC) is reduced by 60,060 damage (approx.), therefore only doing 39,940 damage

now, after i checked breifly some of the top chars (DAWG's, Ranger's , Mikel's and Jayuu's characters) the top AC was 386 (on Krang) so im going to assume that this is the highest in the game (ASSUMPTION) -i only checked 4 characters

now, hypothetically: (no protection, endurance)

386 AC is a 81.06% damage reduction
my magical vorpal blade which does 100k damage hits the minion with 386 AC. any other blade's attack will be reduced by 81,060 damage, doing an effective 19,940 damage, but the vorpal blade's attack hits a minion with 235 AC (49.35% damage reduction) due to the 40% AC reduction. the vorpal blade would hit for 50,650 damage

my question is this: is this really unfair?
i definitly don't think so

QBRanger July 16 2006 6:19 PM EDT

"my magical vorpal blade which does 100k damage hits the minion with 386 AC. any other blade's attack will be reduced by 81,060 damage, doing an effective 19,940 damage, but the vorpal blade's attack hits a minion with 235 AC (49.35% damage reduction) due to the 40% AC reduction. the vorpal blade would hit for 50,650 damage"

"my question is this: is this really unfair?
i definitly don't think so "

So your saying that a supporter item that does 2.5x the damage of one of the top 4 weapons is not unbalanced? If you factor in a TOE and protection, the % damage the VB will do will be much more.

Of course it is!!

Imagine the cb2 that was spent getting the AC up to 386.

QBsutekh137 July 16 2006 6:46 PM EDT

One chink? Large AC has two: VB and Decay.

Just clarifying.

QBRanger July 16 2006 6:49 PM EDT

Actually for all the CB2 one spends on getting high AC, the VB, as a supporter item, is way out of wack.

Decay has a counter-large AMF.

VB has no counter and its close to upgrade as one of the top 4 weapons - x wise of course.

{Quitter}Gah July 16 2006 6:55 PM EDT

High AC costs a ton of cb2.. should you be able to go through most of it with just a supporter item that costs a small fraction of the AC...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 16 2006 7:02 PM EDT

Maybe the role of supporter items has changed from CB1 to 2 and it's just another thing we need to get used to.

Instead of being items to give new players a little 'oomph' or diveristy when they get started (with the aim to be outclassed later on in CB life), supporter items are now the creme de la creme, but purchased.

*shrug*

ScY July 16 2006 7:26 PM EDT

What are the ways of defending from attack in CB?
-protection
-AC -DBs
-ToE -MgS
-AMF -TSA (DD reduction)
-evasion -amulets AoAC, AoI

now in CB, there are counters to most aspects of the game.
to counter mages: MgS, TSA (in a small way), AMF... to counter tanks: DBs, evasion, AoI(though in a small way, the Db effect of +20) also not going into dx, larger tanks, etc.
-there are only 3 ways to block damage in general: ToE, protection and AC. There is only one way to get around these: and that is the VB(in terms of counters). The VB can only be weilded succssfully by tanks.

This game, as a whole, should be more about stratedgy, and less about who can spend the most USD, to get CBD, to bash into huge NWs. If someone wants to spend over 100 USD to get to lets say 400 AC, then they should be aware that some of that amount... 40% to be exact, will be waved by a VB user. Yes, it was a recent change, but still, 40% of 400 is 160, nad 400-160 results in 240 effective AC. Thats STILL a 50.4% damage reduction. So if one was to do... oh, lets say 1.8M damage, agenst a minion with 240 AC, that minion would only recieve 900k damage! Not bad id say.
Cb should not be about who can pump out the most CB into NW. Those who have done this beware, strategdy can prevail! IN my humble opinion, CB, should be more strategdy inclined. Dont nerf the only way to do more than 81% less damage than you could be doing to a low AC minion. A system of checks and balences should be made up of BALENCE. An equilibrium.

th00p July 16 2006 7:29 PM EDT

Equilibrium, I agree. Now tell me a counter for the VB.

{Quitter}Gah July 16 2006 7:33 PM EDT

Uber Dbs :P

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 16 2006 8:00 PM EDT

Decay isn't ENOUGH? it was the deciding factor in Krang VRS Crisis for a moment..it's always been the key to defeating heavy AC, and it wasn't easy to do. Why? Because you should'nt be able to negate NW spent like without serious XP or $$$. The recent weapon changes simply highlighted the long standing issues with the real value long term of the VB. Stupid PTh race.

Adminedyit July 16 2006 8:34 PM EDT

Again I say a VB is "overpowered" against you big AC, ToE, protection people. Supposedly if I have a MH and a VB of identical stats then the MH will do MORE damage against most opponents correct?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 16 2006 8:37 PM EDT

I don't want the item removed, I want it balanced to a reasonable level, at the very least the recent changes are a huge AC nerf, which in turn makes the VB too effective. Either that or WA needs to be lowered.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 16 2006 8:41 PM EDT

at the top edy, there is enough AC/end/prot as a requirement to survive that I believe soon a VB or decay will be the only way to beat the top teams. Jon saw the stalemates coming and tried to prevent it with a weapon boost, however the consequences of this include the VB being made the second best weapon in the game for ToA tanks looking to compete, and the best weapon in the game for quick kill archer teams.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] July 16 2006 8:41 PM EDT

i do not think its overpowered, as vs someone with much less ac, a different weapon will do much more damage, if you look at it in terms of min and max damage, a vb has a higher minimum damage, but a lower maximum damage. i think it adds a good balance by taking away the once holy grail of incredibly high ac.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 16 2006 8:53 PM EDT

I want a supporter item that reduces dex by 40%, and DD by 40% and hmm oh yeah Weapon damage by 40%...see how the rest of you like it.

Flamey July 16 2006 8:53 PM EDT

i agree with scytale here, there is so much USD going around in the game, that you can have the best strategy but someone who spends USD can easily beat you.

and obviously, DBs +50 cost a lot of money don't they I mean c'mon
$2,752,708 NW to totally negate the + on a VB, do you even know how much it costs to get to +50? it costs a lot more than DB's +50 i can tell you that.

so maybe being a brick wall isn't the cure to _everything_ you could try being transparent, it might work. we can't have the cure to everything.

this is finally something that can rip through heavy AC, and you still want your beloved overpowered strat to be that, overpowered, this wouldn't overpowered if you were using a VB and/or no heavy AC.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 16 2006 8:54 PM EDT

the MgS isn't even as silly as the VB, there is no down side to it, at all.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] July 16 2006 8:55 PM EDT

axbow, MgS, ac/toe, they all already have weakness where a high ac's only weakness is vb.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 16 2006 8:58 PM EDT

next person to fail to acknowledge decay as an effective counter to high ac gets a monkey up side the head

Flamey July 16 2006 9:00 PM EDT

ok, Decay rips through AC. happy?


Decay needs to be train just as much as the other DD spells otherwise AMF will rip through it.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] July 16 2006 9:09 PM EDT

as highest amf is 3x higher than the highest decay, i dont think decay is as viable as you are saying, unless trained really high, but that takes away from everything else on the char

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 16 2006 9:11 PM EDT

the VB is too easy, other counters are not nearly as effective.

I'm all about it if we want to have people at half our NW and power with opposing strats beating us, but everyone needs to enjoy it...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 16 2006 9:12 PM EDT

a decay minion getting AMF'ed for .40 and wearing a ToE can expect to do more damage than most tanks to heavy AC minions, it's hugely effective.

QBRanger July 16 2006 9:33 PM EDT

There are various ways around decay even if you have no AMF trained.

Use your imagination.

QBsutekh137 July 16 2006 10:56 PM EDT

Same for the VB then. PL, anyone? It is the way 'round anything for all you multi-minion teams...

Novice, I feel your pain, and I almost always agree with you. But if this were a post about me saying why oh why can't my single-minion team be competitive because of PL, auras, AS, diffusion, etc. etc. etc. would I have any supporters?

Pretty sure that's a big fat "no".

The most we can ask for is that the VB upgrade curves be made a little steeper. And I agree with that. Hell, the GoP was fracking _static_ over on CB1. The VB should never be a north-of-1.5million-score competitor. That's not a supporter item.

And before I would say "pfft" to nerfing the VB (because the MgS is already so uber), I would say to nerf the MgS too. *smile*

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 16 2006 11:23 PM EDT

I'm not talking about being beaten Sut, I'm talking about a char with an MPR 200k below mine with a weapon with a NW at 1/2 of my AC's NW with DM that does almost nothing to me now that I've gone RoS still being able to beat me solely because he's wielding an item I've always felt was overpowered.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 16 2006 11:49 PM EDT

I think the real lesson of the poll is that Supporter Items have a whole new kind of life now on cb1, they are a reward to anyone at any level for helping keep cb up and running. I like that part of it, I really do. I think it's a step that makes it more likely that the game will still be going when I finally get tired of it. However I'd like to see them more carefully balanced and adjusted as other changes are made, the special abilities are not being altered when items they were created to tame are nerfed or buffed. Yes the VB has been adjusted, but how long ago was that? What you have is an effective quadrupling of damage for VB users as a result of the recent change as far as the ToE is concerned, and no amount of NW into Armor can prevent physical damage combined with PTh, it's dbs or nothing.

Welcome to Supporter Blender.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 16 2006 11:58 PM EDT

Score / PR / MPR: 1,389,318 / 407,685 / 271,619

nope nothing to see here, right Edy...nothing overpowered about the ToA VB combination at all...*chortle*

AdminNightStrike July 17 2006 12:54 AM EDT

"...no amount of NW into Armor can prevent physical damage combined with PTh, it's dbs or nothing."

Get an AC of 795: 795 - (795 * .4) = 477.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 17 2006 2:57 AM EDT

Novice is right.

The two main ways of stopping Physical damage. Evasion/Dex and AC.

DBs have a cheaper pgrade cost to a VB, but don't stack with anything (well again an AoI, but if you're wearing one, you're not really going to be hit by a VB anyway...). Wear as the PTH on a VB stack nicely with the PTH from a ToA. Add the two together and you have nothing to really mitigate the damage this weapon causes.

You could try EC, but the ToA also boosts Str and Dex.

Two minions with large AXBows and EXbows maybe?

But we are seeing more High AC minions. The change of power towards multiple minion teams, especially using a high AC wall with PL, is encouraging this.

High AC needs a counter, but I feel the VB does this too cheaply.

Flamey July 17 2006 4:17 AM EDT

it may of been done cheaply, but another reason could be about the fact, this game should not need USD to be the best, but what's happening?

Heavy AC wall, achieveable through mostly USD, upgrade costs were through the roof on weapons.


but thats changed now, you don't need USD to get x10000 on a weapon.

i also don't know why people are complaining, people used VB's before this change, i know i did.

why wouldn't you, it was still good you could have VA and reduce 40%, i was about to switch to a BoTH, but i thought i should wait out, this is good for us Pre-VB users, you can't take this gift away from us.

Miandrital July 17 2006 11:13 AM EDT

How about a simple solution: Fix the VB to certain stats- ie the Glaive of Pain in cb1. That way you could still use it up to a point, then it just is no longer effective.
To fix the Mage Shield I think it needs to have its effect decay like the TSA's. That would help balance it better.

AdminJonathan July 17 2006 11:20 AM EDT

I'll just point out that IF the VB is in fact overpowered, it's the best-kept secret on CB2. price - NW for the VB is -1M compared to +1M for MH and +700k for Bth. Maybe the market hasn't realized how good the VB is yet... or maybe the VB is a pretty specialized counter to a specific strat.

But novice is right on one count; I started consciously making supporter items not suck at the high end soon after Sutekh complained mightily about his MgS getting nerfed. Which was pretty early on in CB2 IIRC.

*waves to Sutekh*

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 17 2006 11:22 AM EDT

:) I think that will change quite quickly. Before the physical damage change, people were using the big 4/5 just for the damage output. But now the X is linear, I think a few more people will start upping VBs. :)

QBsutekh137 July 17 2006 11:23 AM EDT

* waves at Jonathan * Hi there!

Now go monitor the 100 millionth battle! :P

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 17 2006 11:26 AM EDT

Besides, if there was some way to show how much more powerful the MH and BTh are over the other melee wepaons, people might be more willing to use other weapons. >;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 17 2006 11:57 AM EDT

If by "specific strat" you're talking about, A) People wearing Armor, B) People Using a ToE, C) People training Prot...

That's a large number of teams as things are now, The scores don't lie in my opinion, and even if the market is still only moving in the background there has still be a visible shift in the likely hood you'll base your strat around the VB, I'd rather see it "fixed" now, than after 3 months of people basing strats off what in my opinion is far too effective a counter for a group of item/attributes that were one of the core strats. So if Heavy Tanks have VB users, (since apparently no one has actually tried decay and noticed how well it works), and Mages suffer under the hand of the MgS teams, where is my item that reduces dex or PTh by 40% on the cheap, cause I'm waiting.

Colonel Custard [SeeD] July 17 2006 1:08 PM EDT

I have an idea: Sell all your 957 million NW AC and put that money into your weapon damage. He may do 123,000 damage per hit, but if you get your Morg up to x500000, he can't compete. You can kill him in the ranged rounds just from the damage that your Morg can potentially do.

Tezmac July 17 2006 1:15 PM EDT

Re: Novice

If you want a counter to his VB, why dont you just equip an Exbow with slayers defensively and drive his ST down so his hits dont hit as hard? Or perhaps unlearn one of your 3 AMFs and train some EC? There's a counter for everything, thats the beauty of CB.

Plus, you're not going to get any sympathy from me either with your tank sitting right in front with 3 enchanters behind him. Yes, I do understand what youre doing with PL.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 17 2006 1:32 PM EDT

Tank in front or back tez, my tank is dead before he gets a single hit on Nymandus.
After spending 23 mil to setup a really effective tank it's miserable to see someone have no trouble at all using a readily available cheap item to pick with apart ith much lower mpr and pr, I'm not asking not to be beated by equal pr vb users, just slow the roll of the coming hoard by lowering the ac reduction.

Recovering BA Addict July 17 2006 2:29 PM EDT

Heh, I thought it was amusing when you switched to a RoS solely to be able to defeat me. The fact that you may have been getting satisfaction from successful countering my strat saddened me, so I decided to tweak my strat solely to be able to defeat you once again :). Ah, joyous spite.

Anyways, I don't quite understand that if it was always your opinion that the VB is the best weapon in the game, why don't you use it yourself (along with an appropriate strategy)? Also, shouldn't your realization have prompted you not to select a strat that is hideously weak against the "best weapon in the game"?

I did plenty of damage testing and top 10 strat analysis before selecting the VB. I made the choice even before the melee damage increase (the decision was quite a bit more difficult back then). It would be nice to be able to keep my strategy, but if the VB does get nerfed, I'm not going cry about it. The way I see it, the need for periodic adaptation is a positive attribute of CB. I had a high score:MPR and was defeating people way above my PR even before switching to a VB, and while I believe it was a quality decision, I will always be considering strat tweaks and major changes.

Seriously, my advice would be to change your strategy (again, heh) instead of trying to get others' nerfed. Also, the main effect of bringing your complaint forward is that more people are going to give a VB a test run, which in turn weakens your strat even more. Yes I know it probably would have happened anyways, and although I think it's hilarious that this situation gets your panties all bunched up, I really don't think complaining about it was the wisest decision (at least this far off from next change month).

And oh yeah, I'm not trying to take a shot at you or piss you off... in fact, your recent chatmails brought a smile to my face. I'm just adding my two cents, and I await your counter :).

NSFY July 17 2006 2:50 PM EDT

This is my take on all of this:

1) novice needs new slipcovers for his couch - BIG TIME!

2) the VB guy has an adequate supply of hearing protection for the time being

Carry on.

QBsutekh137 July 17 2006 3:01 PM EDT

You guys have been OMBUDZ'D! The latest craze from that mad genius ASHTON guy from TV: "That Decade Show" and movies: "The Buttermilk Effect".

Look for him next in the reality series "Beauty and the Tipping Goats"!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 17 2006 3:29 PM EDT

I'm not trying to get a strat nerfed, I'm hoping that others agree that the vb needs to be adjusted as a result of the recent damage increases. I know it looks like I'm specifically trying to win in my fight verses you by forum spamming, but this fight began a long while back.

There was once a point in CB where you could expect not to be beaten by chars at half your NW and at much lower PR, I'd actually love to see the real NW of your team without what has to be extra items laying around unequipped. Do you really consider an item that turns my 23 million dollar AC into 5 million dollar AC by spending less than half that amount as balanced? You're set for opponents some I'm sure at near double your mpr because of the huge ToE nerf that resulted from the weapon boost.

I tend to think long term around here, so suffering a few months of brutality will be quite familiar, however at the end of that time frame, when every NCB char is hacking and slashing with the best one handed weapon in the game, and it gets nuked...I'll still be here.

At this point anyone not NCB'ing using a ToA and a VB is missing out on what has to be some really nice rewards.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 17 2006 3:38 PM EDT

Yup. I've got novices back on this one. ;)

Adminedyit July 17 2006 3:55 PM EDT

" 23 million dollar AC " hmmm funny that you bring up NW :8^) my Boots of Evasion [0] (+125) have a NW of 26.7m so anything that hits me is overpowered. *grins*
And yes Score / PR / MPR: 1,389,318 / 407,685 / 271,619 must mean i'm doing something right (without a NUB/NCB) so tyvm to that post :)
"I want a supporter item that reduces dex by 40%,"(AxBow not a supporter item but it reduces DX) "and DD by 40%"(ah the MgS +40) "and hmm oh yeah Weapon damage by 40%"(ToE again not a supporter item but can reduce damage by 75%, I could be wrong on that number though) And as for the huge decay and ToE mage. Meh I've been there and done that. Decay never kills

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 17 2006 4:01 PM EDT

I didn't say damage edy, I said DD, as in an item that at base reduces your actual effective DD by 40% or better yet how about a supporter item the drops the + on your enemies DD bonus items for 40%?, same with weapon X. Decay was a deciding factor in a few fights between the two top chars, I don't think I really need to say much more than that.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 17 2006 4:08 PM EDT

Ok so this is as plain as I can put this, we now have an item with linear damage upgrade curve that also reduces DR (damage reduction) by 40%. Armor at the least, and certainly protection have a exponential increase in the money or xp it takes to get another +. I know this logic stands a little bit better chance of carrying the message than just yelling "Nymandus ate my baby", but he did, and he didn't share!

TrueDevil [AAA] July 17 2006 4:24 PM EDT

Well, the VB did kill ELS, and I don't think a supporter item was supposed to do that. MgS combined with all the mage blocker equipments, skills made you invincible against mages. (I tried to hit Crisis 3x in a row, and lost all the time with - 3-5 mil HP on all minions, which means after more than 25 shots of lvl 2.2 mil+ MM, his main attacker (tsa mgs equipped) didn't die and probably has full HP all the time thanks to VA). I'd say MgS is overpowered and TSA too.

But then again, it's tank blender right ? oh well....

QBRanger July 17 2006 4:42 PM EDT

Let's take a look at the 6 supporter items:

MgS-exponential upgrade costs, prohibitive above a certain level about +41
TSA-exponential upgrade costs, prohibitive above a certain level about +51
TOJ-Cannot be upgraded, just gets xp and grows
ROE-Cannot be upgraded
AOI-Cannot be upgraded
VB-Can be upgraded on the 'x' side linearly, the '+' gets upgraded exponentially. But as long as your dex is higher than your opponent you will always hit unless you go against massive DB's.

I think the problem novice has is the linear upgrade cost of an item that was a) a supporter item and b) nerfs quite a large percentage of ones strategy/AC.

Right now the best AC is 388. That is 81.5% damage reduction or 18.5% damage taken. 60% of 388 is 233. 233 is 49% damage reduction or 51% damage taken.

So the VB actually does 275% damage of an els (lets use that as an example).

As AC's get higher the % more the VB does will go exponentially up. The VB was not used or talked about till just now since AC's had not yet reached over 275 or so.

Before the highest AC was about 250 or so. Let's see the VB's effect on that AC. 250 AC gives 52.5% damage reduction or 47.5% damage taken. 60% of 250 is 150. 150 AC gives 31.5% damage reduction or 68.5% damage taken.

So in this case the VB does only 144% damage of the els.

So the VB becomes very valuable for high AC minions and not as valuable for lower AC minions. However it is still very useful as it is not that expensive to upgrade compared to a top 4 weapon. (see below)

However in cb2, I believe defense should account for something. With the VB, if all the higher characters use it, the game quickly becomes Super Tank Blender. The only way I, as a mage team, have a chance is to try to live as long as possible. With the VB that becomes impossible, cutting through BOTH AC AND a TOE. Imagine if we got a supporter item that lowered AMF AND a TOE AND AC vs mage spells by 40%. We would have tons of posts about how powerful it is.

Again, in response to Jon's post:
Yes, the community has not yet realized the potential of the VB due to the lack of super high AC's.
BUT----Also, the recent change to weapons upgrades make the VB a very viable weapon due to the fact its upgrade costs are just a bit behind
the top 4 weapons. Before the recent change the VB was too expensive to reasonable use as a primary megaweapon.

Now per 'x':
A Vorpal Blade: $8,459
An Elven Long Sword: $7,820
The difference is very minor indeed.

For 50 million you get
VB: x5910
ELS: x6393

Just my 2 cents on the matter, from an entirely different persepective as I had 3 months ago.


Adminedyit July 17 2006 4:52 PM EDT

anyone with an ELS care to compare the costs for the +?from
and as for "overpowered" 4 / 4 / 101,946 ranged damage with my Elven Long Bow [6x476] (+40), 10 / 10 / 111,656 melee damage with my VB [75x421] (+72) it is named so with the new change that adds 150 the X's effectivley x571. Look at the "overpowered" damage that inflicts over my normal ELB :)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 17 2006 4:54 PM EDT

Now show your ranged damage and VB damage vrs someone not wearing a tutu.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 17 2006 4:56 PM EDT

Sascha Vycos
2 / 2 / 21,384
7 / 7 / 60,092

Triple the damage...you do more damage than most of the 10-5 morgs in game already to my tank...but nothing to see here...no problem at all.

miteke [Superheros] July 17 2006 5:01 PM EDT

I rather like Nyms point. If you pick a victim and base your strategy around beating his, you should be able to take him out with half his PR. No strat should be so well rounded that it does not have serious weaknesses. That is the woes of being at the top - you have no one to tweak your strat to beat that is above you, and plenty of folks below you waiting to take advantage of your weaknesses.

I have no problem with some kind of VB mod, but at the end of the change month, I would still like to see a VB team beat an AC team with half the PR, just not 1/4 the PR!

AdminJonathan July 17 2006 5:03 PM EDT

"The difference [in upgrade cost] is very minor indeed."

I thought it was obvious that a 75x weapon isn't going to do the same amount of damage as a 80x weapon at a given enchantment level.

QBsutekh137 July 17 2006 5:16 PM EDT

I think his point was that it WILL do the same amount of damage (or more) against even a nominally ACed target.

It's not the base damage that folks are having issues with (those that do) -- it's the total damage inflicted vs. heavily defended minions.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 17 2006 5:28 PM EDT

And not just high AC, but ToE Mages and everyone who uses Protection. :)

Adminedyit July 17 2006 5:39 PM EDT

"Now show your ranged damage and VB damage vrs someone not wearing a tutu"
thats just my point, the VB is only really effective against you big AC people otherwise just get a MH and pulverize any little worm that dares to cross your path :) your AC needs a weak point too (and please don't say decay) yes versus you mighty, thick skinned, full AC knights a VB may do more damage but against an E or a FB mage the VB does less damage than a MH so it really depends on what you're going to try and fight.
There is after all no perfect strat, every one has a weakness AC has the VB, DD has MgS, TSA, AMF, Seeker arrows, UC has DD, every coin has its reverse :)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 17 2006 5:45 PM EDT

Where is the counter for the ToA VB wielding Archer? And since when do general balanced strats need counters this powerful? I don't see the aversion to decay at all, even with a .50 AMF it does more damage than a VB does to heavy tanks with large HP, only difference is you can't put a ToA behind decay and make it hit 3 times a round.

Adminedyit July 17 2006 5:55 PM EDT

You can't make any DD hit 3 times per round :)
and the counter to the ToA VB Archer is a big mage, not much for AC with my tutu on :)

QBRanger July 17 2006 5:59 PM EDT

Jon,

Of course the base damage of the VB and the ELS are different with the ELS being higher.

However most teams use protection, and quite a few use it more than just base. Also a lot of teams use a TOE and the VB makes both protection and the TOE just about 1/2 as powerful.

I personally would love to see Krang or Crisis with only a x1200 VB attack my wall. I'm sure they will do over 150k damage vs the 50-60k they do now with x7500 MH's.

bartjan July 17 2006 6:14 PM EDT

How vulnerable would my Userfriendly be against a Vorpal Blade?

QBBarzooMonkey July 17 2006 6:26 PM EDT

After following this thread from the beginning, my current stance has become "so what?"

So a counter to a massive HP, huge AC wall is a VB. A counter to a huge FB or MM is a MgS and/or TSA. The counter to a ToA wearing, VB wielding archer is big UC with full gear, because you can't hurt what you can't hit. The counter to big UC with full gear is either a giant Morg or giant DD spell., etc. etc. etc.

But once you've countered that particular item/spell/skill wielding minion, chances are more often than not, you've got more minions with big "counters" that you have to "counter" at the same time. If every player in CB land only ever used single minion teams, and only 1 team dominated every other team with a so called "overpowered item/skill/spell", I would actually give more credence to these "such and such is overpowered" threads.

But isn't finding counters to all these things what strategy is all about? With so many combinations of number of minions, skills, weapons, armor and spells to choose from, going on and on endlessly about how a single item/skill/spell that one can't currently overcome "must be overpowered", and spending all kinds of effort trying to prove it, is, IMHO, effort wasted when it could be spent actually finding that counter, or moving on with other opponents.

All in all, I couldn't care less about VBs - I sold mine to edyit, and when I come up against one that's giving me too much grief, I will find my way around it...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 17 2006 6:47 PM EDT

BM, the VB as a counter to High AC/Endurance/Protection is fine. (Persoanlly as said aboe, I don't think Decay cuts the mustard here. It didn't in CB1...)

But it does this too cheaply. Just get it and 'wham' out goes the absorption/mitigation strategies.

A base 40% reduction is too powerful. In aobve styled team, more powerful than any other weapon.

I also think the Base 20% VA is too powerful on MH/BTh as well.

What do we do? I've a few ideas. :) Reflect this in the weapons PR? Tie the 'special' to a weapon stat like A/XBows? Or group them in a 'Power' weapon category (With assoicated drawbacks)?

Adminedyit July 17 2006 6:51 PM EDT

Well said Barzoo :)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 17 2006 7:03 PM EDT

In order to level supporter items out, since they are now keystones in countering standard strats instead of buffs to low level chars, I suggest we take the example of vb and expand on it.

AoI now offers a flat 40% reduction in PTh, and can be upped like dbs.
MgS now lowers not damage, but DD itself 40% at base, + adds to AC.
TSA gets a similar treatment to the MgS thereby ensuring people at half the PR of high level mages get the same opportunity afforded other supporters.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 17 2006 7:14 PM EDT

It's also the fact that one items reduces the effect of 6 of my items (7 when I had the ToE) by 40%, that makes dispell magic's effect on enchantments look tame. The VB isn't specific enough to be as powerful as it is, if it only effected AC, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on, however we are talking about a flat 40% reduction in the defense of more than half the teams up top, could it get any more "overpowered"?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 17 2006 7:23 PM EDT

Nov, I'm getting worried you're stealing my soapbox!

;)

Get down, give it back! :P

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 17 2006 7:28 PM EDT

Whatever it is, too much damage, multiple hits, too easy upgrades, or incorrect PR weighting, there's something wrong/overpowered with weapons now (the VB/MH stick out the worst) but I feel because Mages have dominated to so long, people just don't want to or can't see it.

:/

Doesn't help I'm not too sure exactly what the problem is, I just feel it in my BoNEs! ;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 17 2006 7:33 PM EDT

I'd like to see weapon special abilities being based off weapon +, or an additional enchantment level, gives another reason to use a sword/hammer/poker-sticker-stabber that isn't glowing.

th00p July 17 2006 8:11 PM EDT

We've all been talking about counter strategies, as we should. Everything should be reasonably balanced, making well planned strategies weak to certain aspects of other teams, and strong against others. However, with all this talk of counter-balancing, and how VB nullifies a high AC tank/wall minion (which I am fine with, you shouldn't be able to buy protection from everything)... Where is the counter for a VB?!?

Adminedyit July 17 2006 9:00 PM EDT

My final post to this dead horse thread :)

"Where is the counter for a VB?!?" My gawd th00p you're using it, UC :)

As i stated before every coin has its reverse :8^)

th00p July 17 2006 9:22 PM EDT

Go ahead, please, and explain how UC defeats VB. I'll make one point and leave everyone to ponder.

edyit, you should know that UC does NOT counter VB(well, not as great as VB counters UC, or even anywhere close). Here you have, some 50k+ MPR higher than me, beating me up. Your score is a bit higher, and although my strat isn't bad, it beats up on 90% of the tanks near me. Even though your (massive) DBs seem to be the deciding factor in the fights we have, my axbow does a lot to slow you down. Otherwise, you'd still be pounding the poop out of me, hitting me probably twice a round, instead of the 1hit in 3 rounds in melee that I managed to create, as you still do more damage per hit than me.

Recovering BA Addict July 17 2006 9:30 PM EDT

First off, nice post Barzoo. Also, some interesting points brought up by everyone else.

I am not going to suggest a way to have every skill/stat/item perfectly balanced against eachother, because Jon should be the one who decides the correct way to achieve harmony. I'm not even going to express my opinion on whether or not the VB is appropriately balanced. Personally, I would get no enjoyment out of the game if I had an influential voice regarding balancing issues. To me, the whole reason to play the game is to gain the satisfaction of using your analytical skills to create an "ideal" strategy based on rules that have been created by an outside party. On the other hand, if this "ideal" strategy was attained, and one person was superior to everyone else, that wouldn't be much fun either. In actuality, there is not and will never be a best strategy because strategies can be copied or unevenly countered. Uneven counters aren't seen much because most people desire to defeat a majority of opponents, as opposed to one specific strat. Copying of the current "best" strategy results in automatically nerfing it because if a large amount of characters use the same strat, one can exploit the strat's weakness or weaknesses, and create a new "best" strat.

So what am I saying? I'm pretty much just babbling, but here's how it pertains to the potential mass adoption of the VB: if a large percentage of players decide to grab a VB and upgrade it, large AC based wall teams will indeed feel the hurt. This will probably cause more people to focus on upgrading their DBs, and reallocating XP towards DX, Haste, or possibly EC. This will simultaneously benefit mage teams due to more money/XP being throw at avoiding melee damage, possibly offsetting the ToE nerf. The resurgence of mage teams will.... and so on and so on. This is not necessarily exactly what will happen, but hopefully you understand what I'm getting at.

Whatever your opinion on the VB (or other items being debated), consider the following options. I am not suggesting any one more than the others:

1) start using a VB as soon as possible

2) anticipate the upcoming onslaught of VB usage and prepare an appropriate counter-strategy

3) assume that most people will go the counter-strategy route, and prepare a counter-counter-strategy

4) anticipate that the VB will be heavily nerfed next change month and discount its feasibility as a quality long term weapon

5) anticipate that the next supporter item will make you god-like against VB users, and start saving for upgrades

6) dedicate your time to convincing Jon that the VB is overpowered, and attempt to ensure that it will be nerfed next change month

7) quit the game and apply your time to an activity that doesn't frustrate you so much

8) purchase a couple hundred USD of CBD and start buying up all of the VBs available so no one can use one

9) steal underpants

All excellent options, but no matter what, in the end, the game will auto-balance itself. This inherent dynamic characteristic is what makes the game so interesting. I mean seriously, the game is just determining your strat and then repeatedly pressing enter and watching a bunch of numbers pop up. How could this possibly be enjoyable? The enjoyment comes from the fact that if all the numbers on your side aren't white, you can tell yourself you are somehow smarter than your opponent (or just wealthier... jk :)). In my opinion, if every battle had an extremely predictable outcome, where you are guaranteed to defeat anyone below 90% of your MPR, lose to anyone above 110% of your MPR, and your actual strat only came into play against those of similar MPR, there would be no reason to play. Besides, a good amount of the items in the game are based on Tolkien's writings, so why not the battle mechanics?... anyone recall Bard vs. Smaug? Exploitation of weakness is what it's all about.

I'd like to hear people's opinions on exactly what the game being totally "balanced" means. From some of the things I've read in this thread, it kind of makes me envision a game where some function of x MPR and y NW results in a fixed score, since there is zero skill involved in pressing the enter button. I'm sure most people will just say something like "well, there shouldn't be any items that are clearly better than all the others." But it's really more based on how many people are using the item than the intrinsic attributes of the item. For example, if a static 80% of the people in the game used a VB/ToA, anyone with half a brain would have an easy time achieving max rewards until very high MPR.

So there you have it... I have offered no solution to make everyone happy. Just consider one thing: let Jon do what he's going to do, and then adapt if you feel it's necessary. If there are things you feel that are overpowered in the game, no one is stopping you from using them yourself. I could continue boring you, but translating my thoughts into words is becoming tedious :).

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 17 2006 10:07 PM EDT

If history here wasn't in direct opposition to your idea concerning letting Jon figure it out, I'd be there with you. However time and time again it has taken the voices of the people playing to the game to help balance things out. The players have been instrumental in getting most of the changes made here in cb2, as I think you'll find many examples of it should you chose to take a look. Even in this thread Jon mentions that he chose to elevate supporter items as a whole based on the complains of a player, who later became a QB. If we all just sat back and assumed that Jon was infalable and his design supreme we'd be playing a far far different game.

QBRanger July 17 2006 10:22 PM EDT

Nymandus,

A well balanced game is one where no ONE item or strategy dominates over all others.

With the VB we are seeing a weapon that dominates all the others. Of course you see it since you are using it.

In the past, cb1 era, there used to be discussions on which of the top 4 weapons are best. Some would choose the Bone, others the MH, some others the Bth, and a few stubborn people chose the ELS. Each person would have very viable reasons why their choice was best.

In cb2, with the introduction of DM, and the lack of having a dedicated VA cast, that changed a bit to MH vs Bth. The MH usually was more popular due to its higher damage. So people made large MH's.

Then a change was made to let the Bth have a 50% higher chance to hit and it made a comeback. All the while there were a few that still persisted on choosing an ELS or a Bone.

With the introduction of the VB, all that changed to VB vs MH. For the leech of the Bth, the higher base damage and reduction in AC/prot/TOE made it the choice. However, some people still used an ELS or a Bone, or even a Bth.

Now, with the recent changes to the rules, all that changed. With the ability to linearly upgrade weapon x's, a VB is not that much more expensive than the top 4 weapons.

Now it is basically (with the way things are now), VB way above all others. You saw this so you use a VB now. All novice is trying to do is point out the VB is the only real option in melee weapons.

Now, as a counter point, you can say the ELB is the option in missile combat. But it is not a supporter item, nor it is a common item with over 200 available. And until the PL fiasco, an axbow or exbow was an option. See the past threads about people using axbows vs elbs.

One could also say a corn is the only choice for enchanters. That is true but the melee weapon a tank uses and upgrades is perhaps the single most important item they will have.

The VB now has a reasonable upgrade on the x part, is one handed, cuts 40% off all AC/prot/TOE, and can used with any combo of items. The reason you do not see massive VB's is that until just recently (last month) they were not the "perfect" melee weapon. Now, in some of our opinions they are. Great vs AC/prot/TOE and great vs mages/enchanters. Great vs mage/enchanters due to the fact they are 1 handed, have a nice base damage of 75, and have a relatively decent upgrade cost on the 'x'. Who really needs + to hit a 20 dex enchanter or mage. Your going to wipe the floor with them in melee anyway.

Those, like me, with a nice sized MH would be better suited to pump up their already massive MH's instead of starting from scratch with a new VB. That is why there are none out there higher than 18M NW. If Jon gave people the option to get the CB2 back from a massive MH, I would bet as things are right now, with no other changes, a bunch of people would in a heartbeat.

The "balance" is out of wack, and as a member of the community, I would like to point it out as Jon does listen to the community sometimes and adjusts things to "even" things out.

ScY July 17 2006 10:45 PM EDT

you want the counter to VBs?

UC tank, with DBs

hm... the CGI seems to grant pre bonus evasion, the DBs do that inherently... so whats the problem?

or, we could go the other way, and instead of attacking the actual weapon (through evasion, thus hindering the PTH), we could just go right for the weilder: HUGE EC with an axbow
...now combine the 2: here, we can do it in a 3 minion strat:
TEE (AoI tank) UC tank (throw in a pair of DBs and an axbow), AMF(for decay)/AS E, EC E then throw in a ToE, and there you have it

but wait, look! you dont need that tank/VB specialized strat to directly counter VB, as it is a low AC team anyway!
-yes, it is specialized
-PL is a weakness

but comeon people!, the morg and VB are not over powered!
i agree with nerevas' claim that the morg and BoTH have a damage penalty (i think it was nerevas, and he backed it up very well when i talked with him about it)

there are ways around every move, if you look hard enough though you might not have enough room on your team to counter EVERY thing, thus no perfect strats as of yet.

but come on. if its not one thing, its another.
tanks are underpowered
mages are overpowered
jon changes that, and walla
The VB_is_overpowered
jeez

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 17 2006 11:05 PM EDT

2,171,562 / 932,243 / 625,120 nope nothing the matter at all.

Mikel July 17 2006 11:22 PM EDT

The counter to the VB is a Nice RoS boosted AS, GA, DM to negate their enchantments and maybe throw in EC or an AMF to cancel out Decay.... Ooops come to think of it, that strat is overpowered because it can combat more than just the VB Strat.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 18 2006 3:13 AM EDT

"UC tank, with DBs"

DB are a waste on a UC Tank. If you use a large enough pair of DB to make a difference, you might just as well train BL and dex and use a weapon.

DB don't stack (well) with with inherant Evasion from UC.

QBsutekh137 July 18 2006 10:32 AM EDT

Novice, I don't really have a problem with Nymandus' score. The only thing I have an issue with is that wearing the 12th largest ToA in the game and having more than 110 million net worth (10th in the game!) only jacks up his total PR by 300K. He IS powerful (and yes, partially because of the VB), and I (like GL and some others) would like that power to be more accurately depicted and used to determine rewards. Weapon allowance and condensed tattoo PR (if that is even the case any more) seem silly now that things have been more "balanced".

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 18 2006 10:38 AM EDT

Yup.

QBsutekh137 July 18 2006 10:44 AM EDT

That's also why I am on board with what novice is saying -- he isn't "whining" or trying to bring everyone else down to bring himself up... This is an issue of something just being improperly represented in PR and score (and therefore rewards).

I have no problem with being beat. My team gets beat up ALL the time. My mage is poorly constructed, built for MPR growth, and just generally lazy (he always says "his alarm didn't go off...pfft"). But when someone with half my PR beats me, it isn't rock/scissors/paper anymore. Someone in this thread said that a concentrated strategy SHOULD be able to beat someone at twice PR. I vehemently disagree with that. No matter how concentrated, someone at half PR should not be able to beat someone that much higher up. Occasional draw perhaps, but win?

ScY July 18 2006 12:13 PM EDT

a good example of that sutekh, is borderliner's team:

when my character, slaves of eternity was a EM team with a steel familiar, i could beat every character at my pr, 400k mpr over my mpr and characters with 1M+ pr. (it had a 700k mpr)

borderliner's team was at the time reletively small (I remember a 750k score) and he could beat me_every_single time... his mpr was i believe 1/2 of mine, and i do not remember the pr

another example of a mage specialized team was pit's NCB.
a ET team which was a single tank untill around 800k mpr (i think) he added an E with all AMF and a small VA with a ToE and walla! insta mage killer

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 18 2006 12:18 PM EDT

Anubis shot Cephas Keken Maug Fighter with Aphetoros [147587]
Thane Keeper Cleric absorbs damage [81459]
Anubis hit Cephas Keken Maug Fighter with Aphetoros [197840]
Thane Keeper Cleric absorbs damage [81459]
Anubis shot Cephas Keken Maug Fighter with Aphetoros [165459]
Thane Keeper Cleric absorbs damage [81459]
 
	Anubis shot Cephas Keken Maug Fighter with Aphetoros [276294]
Thane Keeper Cleric absorbs damage [81459]
Anubis skewered Cephas Keken Maug Fighter with Aphetoros [192984]
Thane Keeper Cleric absorbs damage [81459]
Anubis struck deep into Cephas Keken Maug Fighter with Aphetoros [156195]
Anubis struck deep into Cephas Keken Maug Fighter with Aphetoros [211189]

Ranged Rounds verses Krang, notice the amount of damage his monster ELB does.

Anubis fractured Cephas Keken Maug Fighter with MijØlnər [299497]
Ralphus Aasimar Cleric absorbs damage [36441]
Anubis draws strength from his weapon! [52611]
Anubis crunched Cephas Keken Maug Fighter with MijØlnər [282721]
Ralphus Aasimar Cleric absorbs damage [36441]
Anubis draws strength from his weapon! [49256]
Anubis crushed Cephas Keken Maug Fighter with MijØlnər [364307]
Anubis draws strength from his weapon! [17791]
Anubis pulverized Cephas Keken Maug Fighter with MijØlnər [332101]

Melee verses Krang...

Nymandus hacked Cephas Keken Maug Fighter with The Reaver [202329]
Ralphus Aasimar Cleric absorbs damage [36441]
Nymandus sliced into Cephas Keken Maug Fighter with The Reaver [165397]
Ralphus Aasimar Cleric absorbs damage [36441]

Melee verses Nymandus shows that with 1/10th the X he does 2/3 of the damage of the largest weapon in game.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] July 18 2006 12:20 PM EDT

Can we get a comparison versus some low AC please.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] July 18 2006 12:32 PM EDT

I have some sympathy for your argument Novice, no need to exaggerate, those numbers look closer to 1/2 than 2/3 ;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 18 2006 12:39 PM EDT

with MijØlnər [299497]
The Reaver [202329]

Yeah that looks a whole lot like 1/2...thbbt

Even if it was 1/2, that still means that by x2500 He has a good chance of topping the MPB of the largest weapon in game when AC is involved...

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] July 18 2006 12:52 PM EDT

Stupid me, I took the average damage from the numbers you posted, had I known you were comparing only those 2 numbers I wouldn't have faulted your calculations.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] July 18 2006 12:55 PM EDT

I still cannot believe this thread is 114 posts long without any decent comparison of the VB and other weapons versus a range of AC.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 18 2006 12:56 PM EDT

dang math doing folks...
(thanks Border)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 18 2006 1:00 PM EDT

I really don't see what that comparison is going to add, my issue with the VB is how much more effective it is against heavy AC than the standard weapons, not how much damage it does over all. No matter how much less it does against a non armored target, the fact it negates an infinite amount of AC NW for free means it's going to be too strong.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] July 18 2006 1:14 PM EDT

I would think it was the crucial point as it shows the other side of the coin, what you could be doing in some circumstances if you had a different weapon. It may show that there are still meaningful to be made weapon wise.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 18 2006 1:21 PM EDT

I don't care if he can't beat anyone but ToE users, it's still too effective.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] July 18 2006 1:26 PM EDT

Perhaps, but I prefer to see the whole picture and that awesome 40% bonus doesn't come without downsides.

chappy [Soup Ream] July 18 2006 1:35 PM EDT

Too efficient? In my eyes the VB should be the best weapon in the game ... I mean it IS a supporter item ... I'd hope that an item I paid USD for was better than one I could get from the auctioneer ... just my $.02 and we all know it's worth it :P

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 18 2006 1:52 PM EDT

I think the real question to Novice is this....

What would Nym's PR need to be, before you no longer thought he should not beat you. As in, at what PR level does Nym to have in order for you to feel he is no longer "overpowered"

Because that is the crux. If he had a VB and 2X your PR you would no be using him as an example, you would not think him overpowered. If he had a VB and 2/3 your PR would he be over powered, 5/6? That's my question. Any other question is truly immaterial IMHO. Until Novice himself can fix a level of comfort (as in I lose to someone that is equal my PR and I am comfortable with it), then how can anyone expect Jon to do it.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 18 2006 1:52 PM EDT

BL, does it really matter? Everyone knows at zero AC everything with a base damage higher than the VB will outdamage it. Do we really need to make comparions at 50AC and 100AC as well?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 18 2006 1:53 PM EDT

Well there is it, if Chappy's opinion is any gauge of feelings here, I'd say we're in for a rough couple months as things shift.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 18 2006 1:55 PM EDT

Does anyone here think that (at least) weapons with specials need to have their PR increased to reflect the increased power their specials give above other weapons?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 18 2006 1:58 PM EDT

Seft, this is not about my and Nymandus back and forth, very little of this is specifically about that. I believe that the VB is unbalancing the game as a result of the last change, I don't think a PR boost is going to correctly represent the power increase of the VB, simply because the ability isn't tied to a + or NW in ANY way. It just works, all the time without regard to the amount of NW spent on AC. It's stupid.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 18 2006 2:01 PM EDT

So if anyone equipped a VB and it forced their PR above yours, they should still not be able to beat you?

If someone equipped a VB and it made them equal your PR they should no beat you?

If someone equipped a VB and it forced them to 2/3 your PR they should not beat you?

I mean come on, the ONLY thing you have represented as overpowered is the LACK of PR on the opponent.

Again I make the statement, if equipping a VB brought Nym's PR above yours, you would never use that is an example of overpowering, so THUSLY it is all about how PR he has and how much PR you have.

chappy [Soup Ream] July 18 2006 2:02 PM EDT

What's so stupid about it? I mean I don't hear anyone saying that the MH is overpowered because you automatically leach life when you inflict melee damage (same with BoTH) ... Those are the most powerful weapons because of that fact (or at least most popular overall). What's so different here? Train up some VA and this VB here is going to be hooking your tank up with some SERIOUS HP!!! Seems there is a way for the smaller tanks to compete afterall :P

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 18 2006 2:04 PM EDT

No it's not, I don't care if every VB user ever beats my team no matter PR. The issue is a special ability with no downside, not even a lousy PR increase. I don't see why an item gets to remove what could eventually be 90% (now it's only greater than 50%) of my AC's NW for FREE!

QBsutekh137 July 18 2006 3:04 PM EDT

Sefton's point is just about the _only_ point if one is taking the angle of "what PR should show" (that is really what almost any angle comes down to.

I would simply like to start with seeing PRs that have no weapon allowance and that reflect fully the power of the tattoo (if that is not already the case). Then we can go from there.

The bottom line for me is that I just like to know _what's_ beating me. When Bast started Dixie Cousins, it didn't take her long to start beating me. But at least her PR somewhat reflected that (she had strapped on her large JF). I am still under the impression that tattoo PR is "condensed", but am no longer sure about that (Bast's JF adds a very large amount to her total PR).

The weirdest part of Nymandus (nothing personal against you, Ny, this is not personal) is that his character is 10th in the game as far as NW and yet his total PR seems barely increased (since I assume a fair amount of the MPR/PR disparity is already his ToA). Just how large is the weapon allowance, anyway?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 18 2006 3:09 PM EDT

His weapons are tiny, I think his NW is inflated somehow, likely either a WAY above max tat ToA, or extra rental items around. His VB is about 11 mil, I'm sure his ELB isn't more than that...

QBJohnnywas July 18 2006 3:25 PM EDT

I know the post is more about the Vorpal and PR increases, but can I just comment on Critical Fumble VS Nymandus?

There is another reason CR gets pulverised...tank vs tank Nymandus is a much bigger tank....I don't know if the char was originally a single minion or two minion char but most of that (admittedly lower) PR is concentrated in the tank....pound for pound I'd be expecting that tank to win, regardless of the weapon......

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 18 2006 3:27 PM EDT

JW: his tank is almost all ToA, and beats my STR and DEX by maybe 300k. With any other weapon besides the VB he'd lose, and I suspect that might include the top 3 morgs.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 18 2006 3:27 PM EDT

*me takes the stupid hat off*

That last post was made from happy fairy land...of course he'd beat me with the top 3-5 morgs...

QBJohnnywas July 18 2006 3:33 PM EDT

I feel a bit like that myself!

I dunno, I've been staying out of this, until I can try out a Vorpal the same size as my Morg for comparison. But I'm getting regularly beaten up by an upcoming VB team....although that's more to do with the ELB hitting me in ranged..... *whispers* isn't that right Seft?

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 18 2006 3:58 PM EDT

Yes Johnny you are correct. There is a loophole of sorts. Its a naming loophole. At lower PRs a named weapon has a massive impact. I took two x10 +10 weapons (VB and elbow) and named them, they went to x160 +10 without any increase in NW. So I can spend all my NW allowance early on + only since the X is already way above its "level" from the naming. Pretty soon, I will no longer have that advantage and the naming will slide the other way, which is to say the additional x150 will be a marginal increase in weapon power. Fortunately, I have yet to reach that point. Until then, naming a weapon is CRUTIAL to the weapon power early in your character's development, and less so later.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 18 2006 4:24 PM EDT

Sef (If you don't mind answering this), why are you using a VB and not something like a BTh?

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 18 2006 5:17 PM EDT

Well when I restarted I had a Big BoNE, a small BoNE and a VB. I wanted my DX to be as high as possible, because ST is easy, and AS manufacturers HP, but I did not want the DX penalties from a bow to filter into melee, so I went one handed with no shield to keep my DX as high as possible. The only decent weapons I had on me at the time of winning the namings was the BoNE's and the VB so I choose the VB. If I had a x10 +10 BTh, I would have used it before the VB no question EVEN if the VB is proved more powerful, from my own personal preference I prefer the BTh.

It was really a matter of circumstance and needing to feed my elbow jones more than anything.

QBRanger July 18 2006 9:50 PM EDT

Everyone is saying that the VB is better than a top 4 weapon vs heavy AC tanks using protection and a TOE. Especially equivalent NW weapons.

But some persist in saying that a MH/Bone/Bth/ELS is far better vs low AC minions without protection or a TOE.

I will easily give in to that point, vs low AC minions a VB is worse than a top 4 weapon.

BUT... Who needs a massive weapon vs low AC minions. As long as you have some strength (IE look at Mikel's or DAWG's character), you can kill these minions with a blunt spoon much less a fairly decent weapon (base damage 75 with a decent upgrade curve on the x).

So the VB is the perfect weapon, and right now the only choice, for all types of combat. Those vs low AC characters and vs high AC/prot/TOE characters.

That is the problem novice and I have with the VB. Just too powerful. Once people get their VB's to x2500, we will see 1 round tank kills, cutting through "walls" far faster than they are now. The reason we have yet to see one such weapon are posts like this one.

Why would someone raise a VB to x2500, spending 30 Million or so on a weapon that they already know is far overpowered and once that gets proven will certainly be changed to make it in line with the other weapons. Or nerfed further costing them 30 million, as their VB will be worse then a top 4 weapon.

The arguement that we have not yet seen high NW VB's, therefore they are not overpowered is quite flawed.

First: The recent change of the melee upgrade structure has now made a VB very close to the upgrade of a top 4 weapon. Before that, getting a high NW VB was quite costly, now it is different. So no one tried a massive NW in the past since it was far more expensive then a top 4 weapon to upgrade. Just recently that changed.

Second: Fear. Jon has done a great job with change months. Once an item is shown, or a strat shown, to be far superior to others, a change usually occurs. Has happened numerous times in the past. The SMTOE was one example. The TOA has had numerous nerfs since the game began. The TSA went from a 3% magic penalty to a 10% penalty since enchanters were using it. etc... Once someone makes a huge VB, they will fear a total nerf as Jon realizes it is overpowered and reels it in.

Third: The heavy USD spenders already have their massive NW weapon. Some over 125M in worth. They do not want to start over with a new VB and be left with a weapon that is "useless" compared to the VB. Now I am not saying a 125M NW MH is useless, however when your opponent is cutting through your wall in 1 round, your MH chipping at his is not going to cut it. So they may increase their MH or stand pat and see how things settle out.

Again, just my 2 cents.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 19 2006 12:53 AM EDT

meh eh feh at this point for me, I've tuckered out my talker with all my jibber jabbering. I'm almost happy to see the ToA return to it's former glory, I was as suprised as the next guy when I discovered all you had to do was come in to battle prepared to get hit in order to deal with even higher NW ToA tanks. The VB lets the baby have it's bottle in a way, I can take a few rounds of hits from some ToA tanks still wielding the older weapons, so it really is obla-dee obla-da concerning my rather tragic setup, I would however still love to see it's power measured and controlled in some form or fashion at some point down the road, long after the dex wars are over.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 19 2006 1:16 AM EDT

Novice, in general terms, I do understand your pain.

Score / PR / MPR: 1,974,876 / 1,264,543 / 913,822 That is your stats. Your score PR ratio at 1.2mil PR is like 3 to less than 2. This is pretty good, in fact I think it is great, and I would even have suggestions to make if you were looking for tweaks and such. But irregardless of that, you seem to have adapted pretty well to the change. I do not think you have anything to be ashamed of, should be proud, and keep kicking butt.

VIVA LA TANKS

Shake Some Action July 19 2006 12:16 PM EDT

I just got hit for 1.8 million in a single round of melee by a tank with less than 900K strength wielding sub top-10 Morgul. It's really not the Vorpal Blade that is the problem :)

Mikel July 19 2006 1:12 PM EDT

I would love to see a new supporter item
like a blunt spoon. Special feature: grants 4 times the number of hits one can normally do. Has a low base damage mod since you can get a lot of extra hits with it. Extra bonus: hits are divided up between first two minions in line. Seems like it would be fun to me.

Godpanda July 19 2006 3:48 PM EDT

Why do all the players in this game seem to complain when a weapon or strategy get more powerful, instead of fighting it? In the VB case, take advantage of the fact it has a relatively low base damage. Stop thinking about what it does do and find a way to beat it. Use mages ;).

The balance of life is perfect =D

QBRanger July 19 2006 3:56 PM EDT

Transmuter tapped Prophecies with Sword of Ashes [148948]
Mikel's 130M NW MH x 10,000 vs my Wall

Rand al'Thor scratched Prophecies with Callandor [169696]
Wolvie's x1400 VB vs that same Wall

So please tell me once we see x3000 MH's how battles are going to last more than 4 melee rounds? Please tell me.

The VB's base damage of 75 is still one of the best in the game. Only behind the ELS, Bone and MH. Better than the Bth.
And being 1 handed it gets +50% to hit on top of all its other bonuses.

Godpanda July 19 2006 4:11 PM EDT

Nerf the Vb

50 base damage and two handed.

Seems to sum up all its problems easily.

Godpanda July 19 2006 4:14 PM EDT

I think one of the problems is, that people tend to think of nerfs as permanent because they normally are. But Jon could try different ways to make it better. Try one way, for instance, 20% reduction. That might not work, put it back at 40% and try again. No use shooting once into the dark and hope to get lucky.

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] July 19 2006 4:41 PM EDT

Since I haven't said anything yet. Let me start by saying:

Longest Thread.. ever!

Also, I like the way things are with current weapons. I wouldn't mind some new weapons every now and then, but what I really want is some new things to play with here on CB. Like for instance ----

"Blender Bash"---
Who can destroy the the giant "Blender of Death" in the fewest rounds/matches possible. The Blender of Death being a object that rules over the land of CB with the iron blade of blending. (blender of death does not fight you)

"Carnage Trials"---
How many rounds can you survive through the fight with the impenetrable blender blade? I don't know, but why not find out?

Let us earn untraining tokens, potions or any number of other things that isn't necessarily just "new equipment".

Godpanda July 19 2006 4:50 PM EDT

I like that idea, I thought of something like it and discarded it, but how you phrased it seems cool. Kinda of like, milestones for players.

Tezmac July 19 2006 5:09 PM EDT

Bane(GW), 4:11 PM EDT
"Nerf the Vb"

I actually think this could be solved from the other end, make AC cheaper to upgrade. Make those TOA tanks pay for getting in their ridiculous number of hits per round.

th00p July 19 2006 5:12 PM EDT

Making AC any cheaper to upgrade would give the heavy AC tanks and walls in the mid 400s of AC, which would make it impossible for anyone EXCEPT a VB to do damage against them. It would only make the problem worse.

Godpanda July 19 2006 5:14 PM EDT

Yeah, and the Vb effect is too dramatic. I mean doubling your AC will just make the VB strike even lol. Roughly, of course.
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