Physical versus Magical DI (in General)
I recorded the total Damage inflicted over 8 of my fights with both my minions (I couldn't use ave damage, as the spread of FB skews this). They both have 'equal' stats.
My Mage has a FB of 49,050. My Tank a Str of 48,811 (Who uses a [92x115] weapon that adds nothing to his PR)
On average, my tank of equal size to my mage (remember the weapon adds notihng to my tanks 'power') does over 5 times the damage my mage does! Without a ranged attack.
Over 5 times the damage...
July 26 2006 5:16 AM EDT
Don't forget that DD's power is reduced at lower levels. I think around 100,000 is roughly the area where it starts to go to full power. Wait until your FB is bigger and do the same comparison. I suspect the results won't change that much but it should be a more accurate comparison.
July 26 2006 5:18 AM EDT
Also, do these figures take into account what damage reduction was going on in each battle, AMF, ToE, AC etc?
July 26 2006 5:21 AM EDT
This information is handy though. It is a fairly good comparison for lower level chars.
What we need now is someone to supply similar for a high level char - say G Beee and 'Lorenzo'?
Nope. I could find a team with zero AC to go batter for a while, but I thought I'd just use a usual sample of my fightlist. :) I'm being lazy.
I know DD has been reduced agian at low levels, but 5 times the damage (and yes, I am using the biggest base damage weapon, but it doesn't effect my power...).
Why even bother with mages until the later levels then?
I'm aiming to have my Str in the same level as my FB, so I will come back to this when I have 100K in both.
But 5 times the damage. With a total 8 times larger! Wow. Did DD really need to be reduced that much?
I would be far better off ditching my FB, putting that XP into Str and using another weapon.
But don't we want to increase options, not decrease them?
Also, I admit to purposly leaving out BL in my example. My tank also has a 60% increase to damage from a level 10K BL.
Removing that from the damage above gives Physical Damage a total of 1,044,833 and average of 130,610.
This is now only 3.5 times larger than DD, not the 5 times as above.
But, physical damage has that option to pump itself, there's nothing similar for magic damage...
July 26 2006 5:42 AM EDT
Adding Tulkas, Helms or a HoE doesn't increase physical damage in quite the same way...and BL/Archery only increase physical damage efficiency in their respective areas.
Things are a little lopsided at the moment, but we do still manage to have mage teams in the top ten so things haven't slipped that much at higher levels....
July 26 2006 5:45 AM EDT
And, my team and Sefton's both started the same day and have both climbed at the same rate. And both of us seem to have hit a plateau where magical damage appears to be considerably more powerful than it was lower down. I'm hitting on average for about 100k per strike - so factoring in multi strikes - I'm hitting on average about 200k per round. I've got CoC mages around the same PR doing more than that...
So things do seem to level out somewhat the higher you go...
1 - 179,830
2 - 1,123,403
3 - 1,236,145
4 - 878,762
5 - 442,169
6 - 807,055
7 - 955,082
8 - 414,685
9 - 1,317,716
10 - 201,496
11 - 1,398,006
12 - 464,189
Total Damage - 9,418,538
Average Damage - 784,878
1 - 725,552
2 - 857,371
3 - 620,379
4 - 1,088,931
5 - 1,199,044
6 - 994,787
7 - 1,186,405
8 - 657,391
9 - 727,276
10 - 1,248,809
11 - 1,504,144
12 - 1,273,583
Total Damage - 12,083,672
Average Damage - 1,006,973
Sergeant Whiskeyjack currently has ST 630,000, and DX of 620,000, An Elven Long Sword [80x300] (+50) nw - $5,095,122, An Enforcer's Crossbow [4x150] (+35) nw - $2,466,876.
Ben Adelphon Delat has a Cone of cold: 1,122,700/1,030,000 (209,157)
Twelve fights against my current fightlist, ranging between 1.9 and 1.7 million score.
Make of that what you will ;)
July 26 2006 5:58 AM EDT
GL: your weapon may still be a bit overpowered in regards to the minion...
Oh, Sergeant Whiskeyjack has BL trained to (0.75) too.
July 26 2006 6:03 AM EDT
Raven: Bloodlust of 0.75 is impossible now...
July 26 2006 6:05 AM EDT
[Quoth]The Raven's figures bear out that at higher levels it's a lot more balanced. The fluctuations between proportions would suggest shorter battles, where CoC doesn't get the chance to really strut it's stuff, or a large AMF perhaps. But otherwise that looks fairly good to me.
Ooops, (0.60)... Thanks Shade
Adding Tulkas, Helms or a HoE doesn't increase physical damage in quite the same way"
Yes they do. :) My Mage has AG, my Tank TG. Both give a percentage increase to their respective stats.
How can my weapon possibly be overpowered when compared to my minions? It doesn't increase my PR one jot.
Raven, I get back to you in a sec. :)
July 26 2006 6:09 AM EDT
Weapon NW allowance is a bit too big ;)
Raven, your Str just about half the level of your DD. :)
I've got no trained dexterity, so the same XP into Str and DD. If your Str was 1.2 Mil, you might see a bit more disparity.
OK, so the answer to that is multiple hits. But then we really do have to look at who you're fighting. Other tank and you're down to one (or so hits per round, at half strength to your DD.)
In my example, I don't have a large enough Dex nor pth to land more than one hit, when I do land hits.
But even if this is ballanced at higher levels, why the disparity at low levels?
Why make mages worthless at the start?
July 26 2006 6:11 AM EDT
Does 10% on your st up your physical damage by the same amount as adding 10% to your DD spell?
July 26 2006 6:12 AM EDT
If it does then I'll shut up and go and sit in the sun...lol ;)
We have sun as well and it wont bloody go away!
It hasn't dropped much below 25 centigrade in the past fortnight and that includes the nights here in the Midlands >.<
Doubling your Str *and* your weapon doubles your final damage.
Not sure how much of an effect just doubling your Str does...
July 26 2006 6:16 AM EDT
London is nice and hot today. Makes for good people watching...:)
I'm guessing you mean female watching Johnny ;P.
Gl is getting too carried away, he seems more interested in the topic than the important things :P
July 26 2006 6:18 AM EDT
I can't imagine GL would rate thinking about CB above people watching.....
True GL, my ST is only half my DD.
I thought my character a reasonable example though, since it's such a basic TM strat. The tank is a simple 1/3 XP for main stat (bonuses included), with BL, The mage is close to 1/3 HP, 2/3 DD.
Both minions were hired initially, and thus have almost identical XP totals.
July 26 2006 6:53 AM EDT
I think it's a pretty good comparison and fairly illuminating.
At lower levels physical damage outweighs the magical and the bigger hitters only really do the damage they do because of the NW investment, which again isn't accurate because of (whispers) USD.
But somewhere around the middle you start to see that what Jon has done is level things out somewhat...
One must consider this at lower character levels. The impact of named weapons is MUCH MUCH greater. A base level elbow x1 +0 adds no PR to a base level character. Name that weapon and it still does not gain PR but adds x150 to the damage component. If that base level character does manage to hit, the difference of damage between named and unnamed will be HUGE. When you think of the adding x150 to Nym's elbow with x5780 or some such nonsense, the impact is much much smaller.
So many of the "overpowering" results of lower level physical damage factors could be explained by named weapons (including ammo)
Lastly if you want to say Bloodlust is overpowered, I have always felt that, ever since Ranger used it and a big axbow to turn my big ToA pumped tank into a kitten then bash him repeatedly for massive damage while my tank helpless swung and missed.
When you consider the impact on your fights that training archery vs. evasion vs. bloodlust, I think bloodlust hands down gives you a much larger bang for your exp buck. Granted I am hoping this new damaging factor helps to mitigate that some what and allow training archery (at considerable exp expense to add one more round of ranged, and that is it) to be worthwhile. Johnnywas and I will be a case study in point as he goes big melee and BL and I go big ranged and archery at almost identical MPR. Right now it is pretty much a toss up, which I think bodes very well for game balance.
My BoNE isn't named, but naming does have a hugh impact at lower levels.
As for BL, I'm trianing 1/4 of the XP I do into my damage stat (Str) to gain a 60% increase in damage!
It's always worth having BL, over putting the xp spent in BL into Str...
July 26 2006 10:22 AM EDT
1. What warrior has no dex at all? Your str should be at around 35k-40k if FB is at 50k...
2. 92x100 weapons don't fall out of the sky. If the mage and warrior both have matched gloves and what not the warrior shouldnt just have a super weapon worth millions of dollars.
3. FB fires during ranged combat which you obviously didn't take into account
4. With equal dexterity you should only hit 50% of the time where you hit 87.5% of the time
5. Do I see tatoos... or DM / AMF?? What kind of builds pour exp into only 2 stats. None do, so Im not sure how exactly this is showing warriors in general are stronger than mages.
yea gl, his st is only half, but thats the advantage of DD, you dont have to train dx, tanks do, how long will you be able to go on training no dx? so while st may give more damage at equal levels, they will never be equal because tanks require dx and mages do not
"1. What warrior has no dex at all? Your str should be at around 35k-40k if FB is at 50k..."
Mine for one. :) Todd and Sute did for a while towards the End of CB1. There are reasons for it.
"2. 92x100 weapons don't fall out of the sky. If the mage and warrior both have matched gloves and what not the warrior shouldnt just have a super weapon worth millions of dollars."
Why? What else are you going to spend cash on fora Mage?
"3. FB fires during ranged combat which you obviously didn't take into account"
I most cirtainly did. The one round the physocal attacks scored zero is because the FB took the team out in ranged only.
FB has three rounds over my BoNE, and still does 1/5. That should say something...
"4. With equal dexterity you should only hit 50% of the time where you hit 87.5% of the time"
Eh? Where did you get that from? No where did I report on my hit rate. it could be 50% for all you know.
"5. Do I see tatoos... or DM / AMF?? What kind of builds pour exp into only 2 stats. None do, so Im not sure how exactly this is showing warriors in general are stronger than mages."
I don't know what you see. Have you tried inspecting my character if you are that worried with my example?
Dex is hard to factor in, as we don't know how many hits Jon based physical to magic damage one. One per round or two as standard? Maybe three?
So I ignored it. Maybe my tank only landed one hit per round 50% of the time. He still does 5 times more damage than my mage. Of purely equal damaging capabilities.
July 26 2006 10:51 AM EDT
I would have to agree with kracker and some of the other posts regarding dex. You try running a tank without extremely high dex (most likely equal to str) and a base lvl FB will start looking pretty attractive.
For those of us who do not spend USD PTH improvements get fairly expensive quick, and even with a lvl 1.3mil ToA, and almost 1mil dex I still come across DB's that cause me to swing and miss.
The fact that FB does an extreme ammount of dmg in ranged amd melee rounds is always overlooked. Where a tank can decide ranged or melee for dmg dealing, FB stays the course.
Another often overlooked factor is that FB hits ALL minions every round. That has more impact on fights with multiple minions than could even begin to be discussed here. If I could use my tripple strikes to bypass the wall in front and feed some damage to the opposing damage dealer 3 deep on the other team, EVERY ROUND, things might look a whole lot different. There are rounds when I do 900,000 dmg to a PL minion standing in front of me with only a few HP remaining, and I have to wait another round before I get to hit the real target. Factor that into your averages
Guys, if I had dex I *Would be doing even more damage* from multiple hits!!!
It would increase from 5 times!
but if you had dx you'd have less st gl, which would lessen your damage too. all in all i think its balanced because of the dx requirement. you can go on about weapons adding pth too, but dbs take away from pth, and since mages have no weapon to spend $ on they could spend it all on dbs taking away those advantages
July 26 2006 11:04 AM EDT
eloquent pit... I don't have much more to add to that.
What response have you to the order in which damage is done being of equal importance to the ammount of dmg done?
then lets assume that my Mage has a nice big pair of DBs, big enough to equal out my Dex investment.
If we look at just Str versus DD, at low levels (would have to do some more testing at 100K) D losses by a long margin.
I've left out weapon size from the equation, as my weapon doesn't increase my 'power' at all.
VP. Different topic. Damage done first should never be the most powerful. I've been adamant aobut that since the ELBow glory days.
But 1/5... That's so far behind... Even gifting FB three extra rounds to do damage.
gl, yea thats true, but how many of those targets had a decent amf and little to no ac, and with the other reqs for physical dmg (namely dx) st should grant more damage than dd at equal levels because of those other reqs. but i think you need to look at defense stats for said battle as well. at lower levels ac is usually small while amf is larger in comparison to dd
you would need to fight against a 0 ac char that has no amf to accurately compare the 2 damages.
Too lazy to do that atm. :) This was just a standard spread of the top of my fightlist.
July 26 2006 11:36 AM EDT
I was not commenting solely on the order of attacks Gent. My main observation was concerning the fact that FB & CoC can attack all minions every round. Where a Melee attack focuses on one minon for an entire round regardless of HP remaining.
There are rounds when I loose two minions to a single FB strike, where my tank will hack away at a PL minion with no HP remaining for 3 strikes to put him into -800k HP before attacking the next minion a full round later.
This has a great bearing on the ballance that exists between melee and DD.
The fact that a properly trained FB can take out my entire team before I even get a chance to strike in melee is another topic all together :)
also, your mage is in front of your tank, did you look to see in those cases if both lived? because if you tank lived longer that would be another reason for higher DI
July 26 2006 11:44 AM EDT
"I've left out weapon size from the equation, as my weapon doesn't increase my 'power' at all."
Without a weapon, a tank could train exp. in HP/ST/Dex to your mages HP/DD and have an exactly equal PR.... (who would win that fight?)
If you wish to take away Weap Allowance, you are gonna have to trade off and accept an equal incrase to PR for DD training.... that is the only other way things could be "balanced"
July 26 2006 12:57 PM EDT
GL in line with Pits earlier response......
Your FB also does not have as much "wasted" dmg vs. most teams.
Your FB will hit all minions on the opposing team for equal dmg. every round. A tank will hit one minion for x ammount of dmg regardless of how many hp that minion has remaining. As you get to the higher lvls that equates to 100's of thousands (bordering on millions at times) of wasted dmg that does nothing more than reduce a worthless minion to BIGnegative numbers..... FB will also reduce minions to negatives, but depending on the number of minions you are facing it will be 1/4, 1/3, or 1/2 as much.
One last thing.
How else are we supposed to compare DD to physical damage?
Take Jon's post just after the change. He asked us to test same level DD with same level Str.
I was doing the same thing...
against a minion with no resistance (no amf prot ac etc) is how you would have to test it.
Ah, so you've a problem with my lazy choice of targets, not the way I tested DD versus Physical damage? ;)
yea, i think your data is flawed because of the aforementioned problems. but i also think with equal st and dd, phys should do more because of all the extra constraints that tanks face.
More I won't complain with, but 5 times more?
Tomorrow, I'll find a target with no AMF or other Damage reduciton (there's got to be naked team like that out there somewhere!) and get some more numbers.
July 26 2006 1:36 PM EDT
your data is deffintly flawed with WAY too many varibles to even begin making a comparison....
I could easily attack a minion with high DB's and AC with little to no AMF and still say that DD does more dmg than Melee.
You will need multiple examples of fights with similar AC/AMF effects, in which tank and mage live equal numbers of rounds to even begin to draw a conclusion.
The original results you posted.... could I be so brave as to ask who your opponent was so I can start to formulate my own opinons of the data you provided?
well, i think theres more reduction at lower levels from amf than ac, and dd doesnt do full damage until 100k or so, and tanks can get extra damage, and your mage could have died a while before your tank did. all of these add up to more physical dmg over dd damage.
to test it would also be best to fight vs a single minion char, less "dead" dmg for the tank
Come off it. It was a quick easy test. That I'll accept but to say the results are way off?
I can't have skewed things that badly for my physical damage to do 5 times the damage my DD does by a lazy mistake....
July 26 2006 2:09 PM EDT
who was your opponent in this test?
July 26 2006 3:12 PM EDT
Back to your original post.... you show 8 damages for each (tank/mage) Are we to assume you have completly eliminated ranged dmg from your test results?
Do we assume every stat posted was against single minion opponents (otherwise FB should have a vast number more strikes should it not?)
If either of the two variables are not true your 5x more damage number is pretty much pulled out of thin air....
How about you show us total dmg per round for each minion, and total dmg inflicted for an entire fight so we can see how these dmgs actually compare?
here are my test results...
valenvail defeated Poetic Frenzy (Clan Beer Garden) after 3 rounds of combat
valenvail *** Poetic Frenzy
Ranged Hits / Shots / Avg Damage 6 / 6 / 45,541 *** 0 / 0 / 0
Melee Hits / Blows / Avg Damage 0 / 0 / 0 *** 0 / 0 / 0
valenvail *** Poetic Frenzy
Enchantments Cast 8 *** 10
DD Cast / Avg Damage 3 / 0 *** 1 / 30
Wish I new how to code a table view for this, but what it shows is that your mage does 30 points of dmg to your tanks 0..... seems to me from my findings that mages are still WAY overpowered in the grand scheme of things.
Wait till tomorrow (and if I find a suitable target), and see what damage my 'proper' test shows. :)
I'm more than willing to accept being a doofus if the damages come out equal then. ;)
OK, I've found a suitable target. Single minion, 20 Dex, no Evasion, No AMF, No Protection and no armour.
I will record only Melee hits, to ignore any ranged penalty to my DD spell.
How do you want the data presented, and compared? What about misses/double hits in melee?
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