4 Minion Theorycrafting (in General)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 14 2006 8:15 AM EDT

For a 4 minion team set up something like;

1) Enchanter with PL, AS, AMF and AoI

2) Enchanter with PL, AS, AMF and AoI

3) Main damage dealer (Tank/Mage) and AoI

4) Wall with high AC and possibly a MgS

(actual stats can be shifted around, but you get the general gist)

All physical attacks (and MM) hit the Wall, to be reduced by massive AC, and then taken, and reduced further by the meat shiled enchanters. All this just to keep the Damage Dealer alive longest. (In essence, the whole team gains the Walls AC, irregardless of thier own AC)

Decay hits a meat shield enchanter before the main Damage Dealer, keeping him safer from that (Than having him at the front).

The only thing that can hit the damage dealer before the others all die is FB/CoC, so that's what the AMF and MgS are for, to lower the amount that get's spread to him.

In a set up like this, what's the counter?

QBJohnnywas August 14 2006 8:23 AM EDT

Against a large MM you might face trouble, depending on the size of the PL on those enchanters. OK, I'm not talking about lower to mid level, but higher up the rankings that might be a problem.

A strong archer might pose problems cutting through the wall more quickly. And axbow/exbow may cause trouble if your main damage dealer is a tank.

FB/CoC won't really be a problem here, especially FB. The affect you're achieving would be a little like my old CoC/2 mage shield wall team. The spread coupled with PL might mean that the enchanters go a little more quickly but by then if you're running a tank he's probably reached melee and doing the business with a large weapon of some description.

The only other thing to consider is what tattoo on a team like this? With that set up a ToE seems like it would be perfect but it would work just as well with a RoS or a ToA.....

bartjan August 14 2006 8:30 AM EDT

Don't duplicate PL and AS on the 2 enchanters. Have 1 real strong AS enchanter, give the other enchanter a PL strong enough to suck up even the strongest blows others throw at you. Do not put PL on the first minion.

So perhaps have:
1) Enchanter with AS, AoI
2) Enchanter with PL, AMF and AoI

MgS will only protect the wall, not the Main damage dealer.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 14 2006 8:31 AM EDT

The tattoo option is pure gravy. ;)

MM or ELBow? Really? :P Versus 300 odd AC and an extra 10% from PL. The only thing that cuts through that sort of AC is Decay (not going to happen in this case) or a VB. So you don't really have to worry about the ranged rounds.

Or drop the AC a little to fit a MgS on and really stop any MM you might face. ;)

I can think of one way to bypass this, depending on your choice of damage dealer.

If Tank, AX/EX Bows. If Mage, Seekers.

But you still have whatever AC on your Tank/Mage and PL to reduce the damage you take.


AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 14 2006 8:38 AM EDT

"Don't duplicate PL and AS on the 2 enchanters. Have 1 real strong AS enchanter, give the other enchanter a PL strong enough to suck up even the strongest blows others throw at you. Do not put PL on the first minion."

The only thing with that, after you lose the PL minion, the other Enchanter doesn't help keep the Wall alive. With PL on both, you get the AS HP on both minions keeping the wall alive.

The AMF could be dropped if you're comfortable with the spread and your wall reducing the FB/CoC damage you take.

"MgS will only protect the wall, not the Main damage dealer."

Yeah, but it will neuter MM and reduce the amount of damage it takes from the FB/CoC spread (that the PL minion/s then have to suck up.) But you might be better with a MS and Protection on the wall. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 14 2006 8:40 AM EDT

"I can think of one way to bypass this, depending on your choice of damage dealer.

If Tank, AX/EX Bows. If Mage, Seekers.

But you still have whatever AC on your Tank/Mage and PL to reduce the damage you take.


And again, that's also only going to happen in ranged...

If forgot to add VA somewhere, but that would be needed if you have a Tank as your Damage Dealer, not only to top up HPs but to counter and GA/RoBF damage you might take.

QBJohnnywas August 14 2006 8:44 AM EDT

I'll give you that one mate about the AC, but a nice named bow, some named arrows. A medium sized tank could still be hitting on average 200k + per strike. Even with reduction that's the best part of 100k per strike, making the best part of 300k per round when triple strikes come into it. That might not be enough to take out that wall if the PL is high enough as well, but it can come close.

A tweak might be to have EC on one of the enchanters rather than AMF. That way you can make an attempt to reduce ALL types of damage coming your way....

In which case I would go with a ToA tank for damage dealing. You could almost make him invincible for most of the fight, especially if had a morg or VA.....

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 14 2006 8:53 AM EDT

I was thinking the same thing... :D

AMF/EC to taste, ToA Tank with VA and either a Morg or VB.

Two AS plump HP (otherwise useless) enchanters to keep your massive reduction Wall alive.

All the while in Melee combat your Tank is stocking up on extra HP from VA leeching...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 14 2006 8:56 AM EDT

But that could be vulnerable to AX/EX Bows, Evasion/DB and EC itself.

While not having the security of VA nor the damage output of weapon + BL, maybe a Mage as main Damage Dealer would be better?

Only have to worry about AMF (But you could have AG + CoI to help compensate) and expensive seekers.


Either way, what else really comes close to this sort of 4 minion set up? Does anything else have the shear lasting power?

QBJohnnywas August 14 2006 9:01 AM EDT

I've never found ax/exbows to be too much of a problem where tanks are concerned. DB's on the other hand.....:/

The mage as a single damage dealer though....mmm..

Tattoo: A ToE...or maybe a DD familiar...gives you another meatshield if nothing else!

chuck1234 August 14 2006 9:04 AM EDT

In second place, I have the Enchanter with Decay and AoI, wearing a Rune of Balrog. The teams that have beaten me when I had a different config can't get past this particular config, especially DM teams with FB.

E1: PL, AS, EC to taste
E2: AMF, GA, Decay with AoI
Tank: BL, VA
M: MM, Protection

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 14 2006 9:12 AM EDT

:) Nice.

As for Familiar tattoos, they won't work so well, not being able to add an AoI to them, they will reduce the effectivenenss of your AC wall.

You want it to take as much damage as possible. :)

QBJohnnywas August 14 2006 9:14 AM EDT

ToE would be the best bet if you're running mage. Although then you're giving VB users even more to work with.... but that's a whole other story....

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 14 2006 9:16 AM EDT

I think a RBF would be just as good. ;) (As long as you don't mind missing the AMF backlash reduction)

Lower the amount FB would do to your whole team, and make tanks take damage every time they hit you! ;)

QBRanger August 14 2006 10:51 AM EDT

Sounds a lot like Koyaanisqatsi.

I went with 1 as to help vs DM.

UncleKracker August 14 2006 11:22 AM EDT

I like the build. You just gotta make sure you can deal enough damage now.

UncleKracker August 14 2006 11:41 AM EDT

Looking at this again I think GA might be a problem.

And I'm sick and tired of people saying 1 large AS is better than 2 medium ones. 2 medium ones is actually better because of the exp curve.

As far as I understand a 100k DM dispels for 80000, an AS for 200k adds 100000 HP, and 2 AS 100k each add 100000 HP. So I'm supposed to believe the 200k AS will still work for 20000 HP but the 2 AS 100k each will just fizzel... and the DM that dispels for 80000 just dispelled for 100000. But with exp curve on those 2 smaller AS the 100k DM just dispelled 30000 over its limit (about 40% more than it's supposed to).

OR a team could have 4 minions that all have 2 50k enchantments and they would ALL fizzle under a 100k DM, right ?!??

So who's the brilliant genius going around saying this stuff cause it just doesn't make sense.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 14 2006 11:41 AM EDT

Oh I don't plan on using it. ;)

And it can do damage. As much damage as any other 4 minion team with a single damage dealer that is.

If you go tank, just use a very big weapon to get very big damage. Simple. ;)

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] August 14 2006 11:57 AM EDT

Its a good build. DM looks like the major threat. I'm not a great fan of PL, I think it needs some more tweaking.
Yes Unklekracker a 100k DM will fizzle 4 50k AS.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 14 2006 12:25 PM EDT

BL, If DM is too much of a problem, use a RoS. ;)

UK, A DM effect of 80K would negate 4 * 80K AS. 4 * 100K AS would each be reduced to 20K, then they would cast at a total effect of 4 * 20K or 80K. Instead of the 400K they would normally cast at.
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