Supporter item destruction (in General)
Given the always growing usefulness of past support items (such as the VB and Mage Shield), and being that central bank destroys items via the auction, and whereas past supporter items cannot be created anew, I propose the following:
Stop Central Bank from bidding on non-create-able items; or
When Central Bank wins, instead of destroying them, send them to the auctioneer and have him reauction them a month later; or
Hold a promotion every so often (perhaps every QB election, or everytime a new supporter item appears, or anytime someone buys a supportership for someone else) to allow supporteres who haven't bought past support items to be able to buy them. This time window could be limited to, say, 48 hours or some such number.
August 31 2006 12:23 PM EDT
If Central Bank won an auction, that means no one else cared (enough) about the item.
The best way to show that you do care for those items is to bid enough for them.
No, it shows that no one that cared was available to bid. You are going under the assumption that everyone always knows just what's in the auction at all times, and how much time is left, etc. This is not the case. Not everyone stays logged into CB 24/7. It's all about perspective, bartjan.
August 31 2006 1:15 PM EDT
Then you should propose that the people who offer the item, make the auction time longer or have other people bid for them to get the item they supposedly 'want so badly'.
The items market is almost as bad as the char market, any culling at all is likely desperately needed. With the change concerning how central bank bids (only upping by one increment, rather than offering it's idea of what a fair price would be), it's really a non issue. You can get an RSS feed from the auctions, so even the exceedingly lazy should be able to get what they need. I would love to see items bought by the bank resold, but that defeats the whole point of having the culling. There are some ugly economic corrections coming, I can't believe the char market hasn't skyrocketed with the realization it costs $30 mil to get to less than 1.5 mil mpr...
Why are you guys focusing on auctions? This post is intended to illustrate that supporter items in play are shrinking, despite their usefulness increasing. I'm just trying to offer a way for supporters to get access to past supporter items on a very limited basis.
Jon changed the purpose of Supporter items without changing their availability. No longer do they expire in usefulness as they essentially do with age. Instead, their usefulness increases.
August 31 2006 1:30 PM EDT
"Stop Central Bank from bidding on non-create-able items; or..."
How can we not focus on auctions when that is the topic you make it?
The only way items get out of the game (except inking) is through auctions CB wins.
The only ways to counter this are:
Don't use auctions for supporter items.
Make sure to make long enough time available to bid and have players actually bid on items.
(Don't re ink your tattoos)
No, the topic is "Supporter item destruction", that is, destroying items that can no longer spawn. I don't care as much about CB destroying items that will spawn again. There are better ways to do it, I think, but that's not the point. The point is that support items fall into this category as well.
Further, there are three reasons for my suggestions, and three suggestions I gave. You guys are missing the other points entirely.
August 31 2006 1:43 PM EDT
Who isn't talking about supporter items destruction then in this thread?
August 31 2006 1:44 PM EDT
A) I don't think they should be re-creatable - they have always been items that were made once and then lasted as long as CB kept them around. If there are fewer, they become rarer and more expensive. I see nothing wrong with that.
B) <Insert creative idea about how to fix the CBAuctioneer problem here>
C) And yes, re-auctioning sounds good.
BM, support item functionality has changed. Previously, they grew less useful as your character grew in strength. Now, the opposite is true. This must be addressed.
Man, I tell you what, this us against each other mentality that seems so pervasive here on CB2 turns my stomach. I see it in virtually every game based post. And to be honest Nightstrike, you are doing some of it yourself in godwolf's Decay and ToE post. But if you look at the following threads, and tell me that this is not pervasive:
Supporter Item Destruction
Reminder: Idle Rooms Not Allowed
Decay and ToE
It seems everytime someone has a suggestion to change the status quo we get fifeteen people popping up with either a) some sort of mental telepathy based channeling of Jon's mental state regurgitated as "the answer" when Jon has been nothing but silent on the issue, or b) some sort of well if you would just use the system the way I use the system, then you would be just fine.
There is a logical legitimate reason to ask, why should the system destroy items whose number in existence is finite. So far the answer is, well you did not want it bad enough to make sure someone in another time zone wasn't bidding for you, because you did not want to be up at 3am in the morning to out bid Central Bank in the last 15 minutes of the auction.
The only person with an answer so far in this thread was BMW who said basically this will drive up the price for these finite items and I am OK with that. Well I am not OK with it. That is my vote. I think it is silly to destroy finite items simply because Central Bank is a machine capable of bidding each and everytime, no matter the time or day in which the auction ends or even if there is not a network connection to the server while the server sits and runs in the background, like what happened Tuesday. Someone, somewhere give me one reason why this is a good idea, or agree with BMW that this drives up the price and this is a good thing.
People ask why was CB1 such a great thing, why was it so better that today almost what 2 years later people are still tagging their nicks with CB1 and touting it as a better game. Well this right here and the post and repsonses like it are the reason why. And you and Jon and God himself can make all the changes to the game system they want, and that wont make it a better game until the community gets away from us against each other mentality that makes me ashamed to be an even menial part of the "community".
"It seems everytime someone has a suggestion to change the status quo we get fifeteen people popping up with either a) some sort of mental telepathy based channeling of Jon's mental state regurgitated as "the answer" when Jon has been nothing but silent on the issue, or b) some sort of well if you would just use the system the way I use the system, then you would be just fine."
You have a certain way of articulating concepts that illuminate reality rather brightly.
I fail to see why an increase in the power of said items is an arguement in favor of forcing these items in particular to be spared. These items are direct counters to standard strats, and the massive numbers in which they are spawned limits the number of effective setups that are plausably effective at the top. Culling the extra's seems like a reasonable method of allow there to be at least one MM team left up top...
Why should the rarest items in game be cheap?
The power isn't necessairily increased. The longevity is.
The difference between these and others is that the numbers in existence are finite.
If nobody anywhere is willing to bid for the item at a high enough price at some point in the auction (before bed if need be) then it should be classed as not needed in the game, why should it be put back into the game if nobody was willing to put a sensible bid on it from the start?
No matter how limited in number or useful they are if nobody bids on it with a good price then it should be deleted.
August 31 2006 2:35 PM EDT
NightStrike: no offense meant but could you list a few examples of the past 2 weeks perhaps?
(I could check myself but I am feeling a bit lazy)
August 31 2006 2:41 PM EDT
Zog - that is ABSOLUTELY right, but the problem is that you don't know who will be on that wants it - I might not be able to get on when the VB's in Auctions, but you can bet I'll want it. Or I might already have one, someone else wants it, but they don't have the cash, so they can't bid. There's a bajillion scenarios where it is a wanted item, but it goes down the toilet anyways because nobody is capable of getting it at that moment.
And yeah, they increase in power as time goes on because as time goes, higher AC armor is created, and NCBs rise to power that have bigger FBs - which means more FB is blocked by the same MgS, and more AC is bypassed by the VB. So in a roundabout way it is like they increase in power. They are doing something unique that other weapons cannot.
IMO, the more get deleted, the more likely that people will be careful with the ones they have/ the ones they've got will become more valuable/ they won't use Auctions to sell them, etc.
For example, only people with a VB will be able to hit through those strats that finally hit 480 AC (whatever that magic number is) whenever we get there - so those weapons will be highly invaluable. Prices will rise, but people will be a bit more stingy with them because there are so few left ;) See what I mean? I think it rounds out in the end.
Sorry if this is all unclear, my head is muddled and I'm sleepy.
I will articulate novice. The main "reason" being used as why Central Bank should be bidding on items at all is, to help keep the value of items from decreasing because of the now infinite availability of items caused by the rare auction spawning system. This "reason" of course works in the case where the supply is infinite, and their reasoning has sound economic and logical arguement.
It however compeletely falls apart when supply is finite and will in fact, using sound logical and economic reasoning, do the exact opposite. It will inflate the cost of these items. Therefore, you can say, the reason this is good is because I want items with finite supply to increase in value. This is a legitimate reason. One I disagree with, but certainly logically sound.
Next I pose a question I do not know the answer too. Is Central Bank buying up all the Great Axes and Steel Brigs and Compound Bows and Lesser Tattoos that are being auctioned? If the answer is no, then a system is already in place for Central Bank to pick and choose and adding finite supporter items to the list should be a menial task.
If the answer is yes, it is cleaning up all the junk no matter what, then a system is not in place and logical answer can be to change the system, the amount of time and programming on Jon's part would be outrageous and not worth his effort. Please do not suppose to know what or how long it would take Jon to do something unless you are in fact Jon.
Lastly, IF Central Bank does not bid on finite items, then for the most part, (and yes there are a few exception like retiring and multiing) the number of items in existance will stay the pretty much the same. Every auction will either end with the owner keeping the item, or some other user buying it. This I personally feel is the ideal solution.
August 31 2006 3:09 PM EDT
I see all the points you guys are making here and can't argue with them at all, but now look at it from the sellers point of view.
1. they are selling it so they don't want it (or need cash).
2. they don't care if CB or OB bid on it as long as they get their cash.
3. they want cash for it so the sooner the auction ends the sooner they get their cash.
August 31 2006 3:16 PM EDT
Correct. =) The seller's not doing anything wrong, the buyer isn't doing anything wrong, and honestly I myself don't see anything wrong with how it is - but as Sefty says, encoding for CB Auctioneer to not bid on Supporter Items would solve 'the problem'.
But I like the idea of rares. Hence the name. 'RAREs'. =D
oh and for the record, I think the us vrs. them mentality is a direct result of a distinct lack of a Todd like being we can all hate upon...
You can all hate upon me if it means everyone will get along better...
Just another observation, would we still like the idea, when the last ToJ is inked into a ToE? I personally will never sell or ink my ToJ for this reason only. Granted when and if I quit this game, that will change, but until that day, I will personally hold onto the last ToJ with a death grip. Offer me 10 million CB2 for it right now (its NW is prolly like 250K) and the answer will still be no, even though I could really use the 10 mil. It is hard enough to hold them as people carelessly ink them to some easy to get tattoo, made even more difficult as Jon destroys them. To me, there is a reasoning that says, if nothing else for nostalgia sake, the last supporter item should never be destroyed. And trust me when I say, you will never know it is the last one, until it is too late.
I think Xanas and Bast have a good hold on keeping the ToJ alive, but it is the second rarest item in game (Jan 1st top 10 mpr chars being the first)...
I've always been interested in having bank bought items resold, and I'm the first to say that I dislike the auctions system compared to what we once had with FS/WTB.
I'd like to see a consignment store type system similar to rentals setup, no time limits, no bidding.
August 31 2006 3:37 PM EDT
if you want to store items, put it on a 'mule' character and retire it ;)
when you want it back, pay $50k and have an admin help you ;)
To be honest, I really don't care if there are items going out of the system which will make them more rare and more valuable. That's the reason I keep 1 of every supporter item in my possession ;)
"NightStrike: no offense meant but could you list a few examples of the past 2 weeks perhaps?"
Examples of what of the past two weeks?
September 2 2006 1:25 AM EDT
i am on 24/7 lol
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