Train Dex or train EC? (in General)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 3 2006 1:58 PM EDT

It's not quite an easy choice for a ank as I tohught it would be (Which is a good thing!).

You can train Dex, in order to land two hits versus 20 Dex Mages/Enchanters/Walls, and to keep pace with other Tanks.

Or, you could train EC, and gain the same effect at 50% to just training Dex.

So Dex is better than EC right?

But, what about if you face EC? If that EC takes your dex to zero, you have no chance of hitting the 20 Dex targets (this is all baring pth). So why does having your own EC help?

If you have enough EC to reduce dex by 20, no matter how much EC is used versus, both you and your 20 Dex targets will be classed as having equal dex, giving you a much better chance of hitting them, than if they still had their 20 Dex. ;)

Phew! I hope that makes sense! While it won't help you hit Tanks as well, you will also lower the damage output Tanks facing you can do.

The best thing would be to train Dex and have just enough EC on your team to take away 20 Dex. )

QBJohnnywas September 3 2006 2:39 PM EDT

Train both, and if you have enough minions train haste as well.....

Puts enough dex in the bank to face up to EC and DM's effect on haste. And it gives your enchanters their own dex which cuts down the dex gap enough that mini tanks and armed enchanters miss, and good tanks get less hits.

Very nice....

AdminShade September 3 2006 3:17 PM EDT

But, what about if you face EC? If that EC takes your dex to zero, you have no chance of hitting the 20 Dex targets (this is all baring pth). So why does having your own EC help?

This doesn't make sense, because if you have a huger than huge EC you will also make their DX down to zero making you equal.

Hint: this was the epic battle of Spid vs Strum.

AdminShade September 3 2006 3:21 PM EDT

However your idea has possibly given me an idea also which fits my character's background possibly even... :D

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 3 2006 4:23 PM EDT

"So why does having your own EC help?"

It was a lead to my next paragraph. ;)

Also, another great point to EC over Dex, is that it can't be reduced in any fashion!

I should note, that Evasion has this property also, and makes it very hard to hit people who train any Evasion, when they also have EC....

The Death Company [...] September 3 2006 5:03 PM EDT

i tried it on my one small team when i started not so long ago (tried to convince my mentor it would work XD .. im not using it any more :D)

I was only training EC on a tank team (no str,dex hast or GS) and it worked really well but if someone else had a small EC i was getting beat and there was something else that beat it aswell but i cant remember what.

In the end i went with haste and gs over EC and wins went from 60-70%+ to 80%+ but i was only fighting who ever was in my random list and at a low level .... may work at a higher level where you cant get away with just fighting anyone all the time and stand a good chance of winning

If you are doing it just get a lowish dex str to cut out low EC at higher levels ... if you try it post it up as id love to know if this idea would work

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 3 2006 5:25 PM EDT

:) I'm going to put it into practice on my new NCB.

It's been made clear to me single minions are worthless (Unles you are trying to max out an xp using attack, like FB or UC), as multiple minions get the same job done, with an extra body to saok stuff.

I was planning on using two minion, but I think I'll go with three (depending on any more changes made this month).

1: E with 20HP and AMF/GA

2: E with 20HP and EC/VA

3: T with HP/STR/BL wearing a RoBF.

The enchants get cast, and the minions either reduce DD damage, or provide two beffers versus Ranged damage. If they get to melee, tanks get the nice job of killing them, while taken RoBF Aura Damage for the Priviledge. And who knows, they might just live versus FB mages, with the Aura FB reduction (and the FB damage 'spread') from my RoBF.

Mages will take AMF backlash damage + GA backlash damage.

Tanks will have their damage reduced, take RoBF backlash damage and GA for anything that isn't reduced by EC/AC.

My Tank will be able to have equal chance to hit M/E as we'll all be on zero dex and for those with Evasion, I'll have to rely on wepaon pth or stalemate.


I would have loved to try this on a single minion, as the restrictions make it harder, but it's just not worth it, there is no benefit at all. :(

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 3 2006 5:32 PM EDT

I could drop the second minion and just train a base EC (enough to reduce 20 Dex to zero...) on my Tank with a little VA as well... But I think I like EC enough to make it a priority to train. :)

I think I'll also train a base DM on the Tank, just to take care of things like Base Protection.

Oh, also on the two 20 HP minions, I'll train Base Decays.

Facing AMF they do 10 damage to themselves. WooT. Not facing AMF (like a large single minion with DM) and they live to Melee, they do a nice amount of damage. ;)

Either way I see it as win/win. ;)

chuck1234 September 3 2006 5:36 PM EDT

For decay to work, either of your enchanters has got to survive the ranged rounds, and get to melee. The best bet would be to equip one of them with an AoI.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 4 2006 1:18 AM EDT

Why? They are there specifically to provide a buffer to all attacks.

I kill melee with this set up, but Ranged attacks take no RBF backlash. I want to get to it with as much HP on my Tank as possible.

The Base Decay is just gravy. Who cares if they do 10, 5, 2 damage to themselves with backlash. Anyone hitting them will kill them in one round. ;) But one of them does make it to Melee, instant 1/2 HP from the first minion, then may Tank gets to smack it. ;)

There is no downside for me using a base Decay like this. If I wanted the Mages to last and use an AoI, I'd need to train HP on them.

Oh and if I used an AoI, one of them might live past my Tank, and there's no reason for that. Even with GA they won't be able to finish the fight (as GA only retuns damage based on your HP and ") ain't gonna return much!).

chuck1234 September 4 2006 1:26 AM EDT

Decay can work only if the minion its trained on is alive, so you'll need that minion to be alive till melee, and for every round of melee that you want to take half HP off opponent target. If your meat shields die in ranged, the decay trained on them will be essentially worthless coz its not an enchantment, its more like CoC in the requirement for the minion training it to stay alive to deliver the punch.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 4 2006 1:46 AM EDT

:) I know. But not having a Base decay on them is more worthless, as otherwise, they'll never do damage. ;)

Apart from maybe not living long enough to actually using Decay, what downside is there to training it (other than the XP cost for base Decay)?

Flamey September 4 2006 3:39 AM EDT

chuck, the decay is there for when the E actually survives to melee, it does a lot.

its not a core thing of the strat, its a side dish or entree if you will. its there, so if the opportunity arises its there. there is no downside, what 6k xp isn't much, if it can be the deciding factor of the battles.

sorry GL for not posting earlier :P i know how much my input is needed (lol)

Flamey September 4 2006 4:02 AM EDT

i have now been forced to respond to the DX/EC matter due to a very frightening CM from GL :P

<GentlemanLoser> [mail:] :D Post your thoughts anyway! :D

now on with the issue. i did read the all the posts, though im not sure if i did understand them :P

i say train DX, because no matter what DX will be better, you can't find an EC that will be larger than one's DX. unless, of course, that EC is on a 2 minion team while you have a tank that is on a 4 minion team, then, maybe.

very rare to find EC bigger than a tanks DX.

thats why everyone says EC is crap, its hard to get EC bigger than a DX, making it almost useless, because then they still have PTH as well, and still hits back.

now, what would scare me is, a ToA tank with evasion, DB's, with an E training Haste, and an E with EC, also complemented with VA.

one nasty, USD strat if ya ask me :)

chuck1234 September 4 2006 4:22 AM EDT

GL, your point is well taken, its just my propah sense of loyalty to . . . . well, i guess, it can only be to the underrated DD spell decay.
btw, i have decay 48k (1) on enchanter 20/20/20, but he is guarded by a 200k AS, and has an AoI cover, so he lives several rounds into melee, halving opponent HP, esp when the latter are pure DM.
Try decay, once you get the hang of it, esp against pure DM no AMF folk, you will love it, even so far as to strengthen it with AoI :)
After mulling over your post, I was wondering why am I keeping decay 48k high, when i can easily untrain it to base as you say, and put the excess into AMF. Well, for the moment its staying 48k, but you've sparked off a train of thought . . . .

chuck1234 September 4 2006 4:28 AM EDT

<these are additional inputs on Flamey's post, sorry, I didn't read his post properly before, so I am reposting on my post, don't know if its ok here, in other fora people look askance, oh, whatever >

A funny downside to EC, when its not enough to bring down DX to zero:

Opponents EC brought down my ST 160k and DX 185k to ST 90k and DX 116k. Then, a funny thing happened, my archer struck 8 hits, 3-2-3; coz now his EC ensured that my DX was 30 percent greater than my ST, while previously it was still 10 percent or so higher.

So, I am now firmly in the "get more DX" camp, coz having DX 30 pc greater than ST does seem to reap benefits for ranged hits.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 4 2006 5:41 AM EDT

Flamey: "I say train DX, because no matter what DX will be better, you can't find an EC that will be larger than one's DX. unless, of course, that EC is on a 2 minion team while you have a tank that is on a 4 minion team, then, maybe. "

Actually I know for a fact that there is one EC that will take out most Tank Str and Dex with a Huge EC. Borderliner's The First has an EC of around 1,700,000. That equates out too about 850k less strength and dexterity. That is a huge drop for a tank especially one that doesn't have a ToA.

Personally in my opinion, I think a huge EC, if it can be kept high enough without DM effecting it, would work very well. Then if you add some str and dex to your own tank the difference would be well worth the points invested into it.

Adminedyit [Superheros] September 4 2006 7:08 AM EDT

DM doesn't affect EC unless it's your DM and your EC.

Flamey September 4 2006 7:50 AM EDT

well, i wasn't quite thinking when i posted that but i did say this!

"very rare to find EC bigger than a tanks DX. "

not impossible :P

the reason is, whats BL's team against Mages? nothing. that EC is absolutely wasted on it, thats why its so rare. but one can say that about AMF as well, but more DD spells are being trained than actual tanks. everyone loves base decay.

i say this for my opinion now..

if you have a ToA tank on your team, you won't need EC, like Draco said, it hurts when your tank is not ToA.
if you don't have a ToA tank, you train EC, because your tank is too small against ToA tanks, and could give you an edge.
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