Why is my GA not working at full effect? (in General)


AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 7 2006 5:45 AM EDT

I can't work this one out. I've missed something, but can't think of what. :/

Fighting Miami Vice, I notice my GA returning about 20% of the damage done, when it should be returning the full 60%. There is AC reducing the GA damage, but 169 AC should take me down to returning about 40%, not 20%... :/

Sonny crunched Talhearn [28238]
Sonny draws strength from his weapon! [10301]
Talhearn's Guardian Angel smote Sonny (6621) - 23%
Sonny burns from the flames surrounding Talhearn (12697)
Sonny fractured Talhearn [29205]
Sonny draws strength from his weapon! [9867]
Talhearn's Guardian Angel smote Sonny (6969) - 24%
Sonny burns from the flames surrounding Talhearn (14501)

Sonny fractured Talhearn [26694]
Sonny draws strength from his weapon! [8432]
Talhearn's Guardian Angel smote Sonny (6611) - 25%
Sonny burns from the flames surrounding Talhearn (12630)
Sonny crunched Talhearn [22802]
Sonny draws strength from his weapon! [7305]
Talhearn's Guardian Angel smote Sonny (6686) - 29%
Sonny burns from the flames surrounding Talhearn (13742)

My GA is 38K, so should be working at full strength versus the damage I'm taking.

:/

IndependenZ September 7 2006 5:51 AM EDT

Poetic Frenzy versus Miami Vice.

GL, somehow you're always having difficulties with my characters.
Endeavor, The A-Team, and now Miami Vice. Coincidence? :p

AdminShade September 7 2006 5:53 AM EDT

Does his Protection perhaps absorb another part of the damage?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 7 2006 6:15 AM EDT

LOL! Numpty... How could I miss that! :P

That's probably it, as long as it's not base... 1 sec.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 7 2006 6:16 AM EDT

Sonny cast Protection on all friendly Minions (4)

:/

I can't think a base protection is reducing my GA from a 40% return to 20%...

IndependenZ September 7 2006 6:20 AM EDT

Protection: 894/1,000 (4), it's as base as it can get.

I don't understand this either. Next to AC and Prot, is there anything else that can lower GA return damage?

Flamey September 7 2006 6:28 AM EDT

base protection only does 4% reduction or thereabouts, not 20%.

i wouldn't have a clue.

Flamey September 7 2006 6:30 AM EDT

sorry to double post.

from the wiki:

"
# GA retaliates with up to 60% of all damage inflicted on its targets by opposing Minions.

# GA damage is reduced by AC; GA damage type is the same as that for which GA is retaliating.

# GA has reduced effect when its level is low relative to the damage done.

# GA only retaliates damage up to target's current HP. If a blow kills target, the excess damage beyond target's HP and additional blows after death will not retaliate."

guess none of that applies here either :/

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 7 2006 6:35 AM EDT

Nope. :(

I'm stumped.

Unless, instead of AC reducing GA damage, it reduces the amount GA returns?

So instead of 169 AC reducing 35% of 60%, it reduces 60% by 35%... Which would sort of fit.

But make GA a lot weaker than I thought it was. But if that is the case, GA can never damage anyone if they have an AC of 285 or higher. :/

Flamey September 7 2006 7:07 AM EDT

i fought him, with my character which is too high :P had to equip a whip and unequip my ELB.


Sonny tapped Apocalypse [57]
Sonny draws strength from his weapon! [16]
Apocalypse's Guardian Angel smote Sonny (0)

Sonny bruised Apocalypse [111]
Sonny draws strength from his weapon! [34]
Apocalypse's Guardian Angel smote Sonny (0)

Sonny bruised Apocalypse [68]
Sonny draws strength from his weapon! [23]
Apocalypse's Guardian Angel smote Sonny (0)

shouldn't i be returning something at least?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 7 2006 7:11 AM EDT

Use a slightly bigger weapon. I think AC would still give the direct 169-338 reduction (before the % one) to GA return, so you'll need to do a little more damage. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 7 2006 7:17 AM EDT

It's can't be my second suggestion. Even with 380AC and a ToE Aura, Talhearn's Guardian Angel smote Prophecies (947).

;)

TrueDevil [AAA] September 7 2006 7:25 AM EDT

Just a wild guess, maybe it has something to do with AMF (not likely) or maybe UC ? Somehow maybe UC provide endurance or something like that ?

IndependenZ September 7 2006 7:26 AM EDT

UC doesn't provide Endurance, only inert Evasion. However, a Jigorokano familiar does have Endurance trained. And AMF, erm, huh?

AdminShade September 7 2006 7:34 AM EDT

AMF doesn't have influence on EO spells or ED spells.

AvoidCXT September 7 2006 8:02 AM EDT

169 *.21 = 35.49

0.60 * [damage] *0.3549 = 0.21294 * [damage]

The numbers are right. The numbers are never wrong.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 7 2006 8:15 AM EDT

Avoid, that would be the amount reduced by AC from my GA, leaving me with 0.60 - 0.21294 = 0.38706 (or nearly a 40% return).

AvoidCXT September 7 2006 9:55 AM EDT

169 *.21 = 35.49
0.60 * [damage] *(1-0.3549) = 0.38706 * [damage]
The numbers are never wrong, but I am sometimes.

Anyways, ST reduces weapon damage, so I guess it reduces weapon damage from GA as well as from actual weapons.

Godpanda September 7 2006 10:13 AM EDT

Sonny beat Desobuck [29683]
Sonny draws strength from his weapon! [8854]
Desobuck's Guardian Angel smote Sonny (9997)

My character wields a 50k+ GA and I am getting roughl the same thing GL is getting. Just thought I would make sure it's not something weird with GL lol.

Unless VA is being factored in I don't get it.

Godpanda September 7 2006 10:16 AM EDT

What level is his VA?

ALso GL I notice that none of my battles his VA never outdid my GA. But it looks like your GA is losing to his VA. No morg so AT MAX 40%.... something weird there.

IndependenZ September 7 2006 10:24 AM EDT

Vampiric Aura: 41,147 (?), MPB: 42,079

Godpanda September 7 2006 10:29 AM EDT

Okay so basically, there is something wrong with VA and GA int his case. But I just fought another character with VA and GA interaction and got the normal 20-60% respectively. (not VA Morg)

Any ideas? Maybe because it's 40-60? Maybe VA and GA react? Can anyone test this lol or is this just some stupid answer none of us are seeing?

IndependenZ September 7 2006 10:35 AM EDT

Godwolf asked me to post my VA outcomes in a 'normal' fight, so here they are!
Miami Vice versus TheEverBlackSky

Sonny crunched fattie [15474]
Sonny draws strength from his weapon! [5599]

Sonny fractured fattie [17201]
Sonny draws strength from his weapon! [7149]

Sonny pounded fattie [17389]
Sonny draws strength from his weapon! [5752]

Sonny fractured fattie [13974]
Sonny draws strength from his weapon! [4486]

Sonny crushed fattie [16909]
Sonny draws strength from his weapon! [5298]

Seems about right to me.. :)

Godpanda September 7 2006 10:40 AM EDT

Well VA is averaging much closer to 30% then 40% to me at least. Like GA is going down....

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 7 2006 10:47 AM EDT

To make sure it's nothing to do with my GA (:P) or my set up at all, I found a low target with no AC, Protection or ToE.

Halcyon takes damage from his own Magic missile (4760)!
Halcyon's Magic missile hit Talhearn [5390]
Talhearn's Guardian Angel smote Halcyon (3234)

Halcyon takes damage from his own Magic missile (5440)!
Halcyon's Magic missile hit Talhearn [4251]
Talhearn's Guardian Angel smote Halcyon (2550)

Halcyon takes damage from his own Magic missile (6120)!
Halcyon's Magic missile hit Talhearn [5350]
Talhearn's Guardian Angel smote Halcyon (3210)

Those three are all 60% Backlash returns.

I thought my GA level might be too low versus Miami Vice, so untrained and upped it to 50K. No change. :/

Godpanda September 7 2006 10:53 AM EDT

Only thing I can think of now is some special effect of UC we now finding out about, the naming of the Gauntlets, or a freaky VA and GA relationship. Or the AC was changed, but I highly doubt such a drastic change would be made without a changelog to go along with it.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 7 2006 11:01 AM EDT

It's not VA. Versus 49AC and a Protection of (10)

Ranged Combat
WolfHawk shot Talhearn [7056]
Talhearn s Guardian Angel smote WolfHawk (3731)

WolfHawk hit Talhearn [6906]
Talhearn s Guardian Angel smote WolfHawk (3663)
WolfHawk shot Talhearn [7599]
Talhearn s Guardian Angel smote WolfHawk (4021)

Melee Combat
Talhearn dislimbed Hanhawk [19074]
Talhearn dislimbed Hanhawk [23536]
WolfHawk scratched Talhearn [10148]
WolfHawk draws strength from his weapon! [2399]
Talhearn s Guardian Angel smote WolfHawk (5374)
WolfHawk burns from the flames surrounding Talhearn (15084)
WolfHawk rent Talhearn [13624]
WolfHawk draws strength from his weapon! [3163]
Talhearn s Guardian Angel smote WolfHawk (7221)
WolfHawk burns from the flames surrounding Talhearn (18789)

The GA returns for both Ranged and Melee are 52/53%.

Off to hunt a different UC char next. :)

Godpanda September 7 2006 11:04 AM EDT

So what is up with GA? and thank you for letting me know about the VA. I can't use UC on any of my characters.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 7 2006 11:09 AM EDT

It's UC. :( Sorry Indi...

This character has no AC, Protection or Endurance (Actually, no Items..)

Master Splinter pounded Talhearn [35567]
Talhearn's Guardian Angel smote Master Splinter (12964) - 36%
Master Splinter burns from the flames surrounding Talhearn (22538)
Master Splinter pounded Talhearn [32479]
Talhearn's Guardian Angel smote Master Splinter (12730) - 39%
Master Splinter burns from the flames surrounding Talhearn (17396)

Master Splinter beat Talhearn [34704]
Talhearn's Guardian Angel smote Master Splinter (12900) - 37%
Master Splinter burns from the flames surrounding Talhearn (16249)
Master Splinter crushed Talhearn [31235]
Talhearn's Guardian Angel smote Master Splinter (8091) - 30% (Could be from lack of HP on this blow....)
Master Splinter burns from the flames surrounding Talhearn (18415)

There should be nothing reducing my GA from returning the full 60% here. :/

Godpanda September 7 2006 11:10 AM EDT

woot for UC and it's endurance! Now who wants to see if it works on physical damage lol?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 7 2006 11:16 AM EDT

Or, my GA could just be too low to get max effect. But that's 50K versus 35K. If that's so, then the information about GA needs changing. It's doesn't lower efficiency if lower than the damage taken, it needs to be greater than the damage to get to full power.

Maybe someone with more than 50K GA could fight splinter?

Godpanda September 7 2006 11:20 AM EDT

Master Splinter fractured Daggonoth [32303] Daggonoth's Guardian Angel smote Master Splinter (14862) Master Splinter crushed Daggonoth [25838] Daggonoth's Guardian Angel smote Master Splinter (13808) 57k /me regrets retraining one of his massive GA farms now.... But I will see if I can move some stuff around without gutting that particular strategy hehe.

Godpanda September 7 2006 11:21 AM EDT

Sorry about the HTML but the darn spellchecker would not let daggonoth through lol!

AvoidCXT September 7 2006 11:21 AM EDT

Looks like it is UC to me, it couldn't be ST based on your battle with Wolfhawk, he has about the same ST as Miami Vice, but no UC, and your GA works against him.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 7 2006 11:23 AM EDT

57K versus 25K damage, that was a 53.4% return. Hmmm... Looks like nothing is broken, you just need a lot more GA than originally thought...

:/

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 7 2006 11:25 AM EDT

I think it's just a misunderstanding of this;

"GA has reduced effect when its level is low relative to the damage done."

The relative level might be something like '3 times the damage done' and not 'equal to' as we thought...

Oh well, just means I'll have to train more into GA than I expected, and with massive damage at high levels and DM, GA isn't really going to cut it up top...

:(


Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] September 7 2006 12:33 PM EDT

You are correct, you need about 2.5 x damage in GA to get max effect (Assuming it is a constant ratio :)

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] September 7 2006 12:46 PM EDT

"Oh well, just means I'll have to train more into GA than I expected, and with massive damage at high levels and DM, GA isn't really going to cut it up top... "

Or up your damage reduction a lot.
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