Lower effectiveness of all ED? (in General)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 25 2006 7:19 AM EDT

Why not. Give an incentive not to train them, in favour of natural statistics.

Even with the AS multiple minion penalty, and with the rest having no penalty for minion amount, you gain more with an ED the more minions you have in your team.

Why not, for things like GS/Haste make the ED give slightly less over all when used on multiple minions, then training the natural statistic would give?

For example, training GS on a single enchanter on a four minion team would give you 272% the Str you would get from just traning the natural stat istelf.

Reduce that down to a little under 100% (so each minion got a little under 25% each), but to make up for this allow GS/Haste to be increased by bonuses from items.

Give all ED a multiple minion penalty that AS has, but make the multi minion penalty a little more severe.

You gain with a multiple minion from having another body to kill anyway. 4 Minions should not be the best thing...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 25 2006 7:20 AM EDT

Oh and you raise me DM, I'll call you with RoS...

(Please forgive if I've got my poker terminology wrong! :P)

AvoidCXT September 25 2006 8:06 AM EDT

You're acting like GS/haste are overpowered, and that is not the case. Look at hzarb's team, The Lega. It is a good strat, but not overpowered. Nerf GS and haste, and you remove the option of a 4 E/T team from the game. And why exactly should there be any incentive to train Intrinsics instead of ED? Haste and GS have 1.3% and 0.8% of all exp, while DX and ST have 6.3% and 5.6%.

QBRanger September 25 2006 8:29 AM EDT

'For example, training GS on a single enchanter on a four minion team would give you 272% the Str you would get from just training the natural stat istelf. '

But how many people aside from Freed can use Strength on more than 1 minoin?

Dex is a bit different. The combo of a Haste enchanter and a minion with evasion is quite powerful. But still, your quite vulnerable to DM, even with the ROS. The ROS only protects 1/4 its level. For the highest Tattoos in the game, that is only 700k protection at most. There are some DM's out there over 2M effect.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 25 2006 8:36 AM EDT

Avoid, I'm not talking power here. Just that multiplie minion teams get more, for just about everything, than lower minion teams.

There should be a reason to train intrinsics over enchantments. If only to justify the higher untrain cost intrinsics have.

Ranger, good point. But I still belive that ED was bought in to lower the power that EDs held. If the effectiveness of them were toned down, I would be happy with reducing the amount DM casts at.

Granted Haste is generally more useful than GS, but AS, Protection and GA benefit any minion. VA could be lumped in with GS, as it's a Tank enchantment, but if you've got VA, why not train GS and stick wepaons on your enchanters for even a little health regen.

Multiple minions just get too many benefits.

Tyriel [123456789] September 25 2006 8:46 AM EDT

"There should be a reason to train intrinsics over enchantments. If only to justify the higher untrain cost intrinsics have."

1 and 2 minion teams. Lower the effect of high enemy DM. Get more from a %+ boost from armor. My 2 minion (+ familiar) team is doing quite well as it is, without any ED or good equipment. The only 2 problem's I've ever run into is GA and high damage enemy tanks. You know, the ones with a BoNE, ToA, and like 50k St/Dx. Ouch.

I've fought a 4 tank team with GS and Haste on them, but I just dispelled it and they were easy to beat. If they had trained St/Dx, I probably wouldn't have beat them.

I'll try to remember where I'm going with this later...

miteke [Superheros] September 25 2006 9:55 AM EDT

GS and Haste are extremely vulnerable to DM and to EC. If you buy Dx straight up you do not have to worry about this. I take down the team Grasshopper with ease because he counts on Haste and Giant Strength for his stats, while I hit him with the cheaper Ethereal Chains. He has a 15% advantage on me in MPR and PR, but he doesn't stand a chance since his cost of affect is greater than my cost.

In fact EC is a great spell against any multi tank team, and still a good spell against a single tank team and is gaining popularity since the game changed from mage blender to tank blender.

If the AoF does drive more teams to using DEs, and the migration from mages to tanks continues, you can bet DMs and EC will become more popular balancing the whole thing.

QBsutekh137 September 25 2006 9:58 AM EDT

Just give mages a decent ED and I'm all good (see my recent Sunday Musing...) *smile*

QBOddBird September 25 2006 10:06 AM EDT

'Multiple minions just get too many benefits. '

Here's the actual point of the thread. ;)

And I agree with it.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 25 2006 10:30 AM EDT

OB, it's the shared ED's that allow multiple minions teams to work so well.

Sute, :) Your thread was my spur to make this one.

miteke, EC is effective versus intrinsic DEX as it is Haste given DEX. Train Haste on a four minion team and you get 272% DEX instead of the 100% you would get training the intrinsic itself.

QBsutekh137 September 25 2006 10:32 AM EDT

I do agree with the fact that 4-minion teams have advantages, and I despise the RoS (I consider it a CB1-time-machine rune). But, the evasion changes and ability to untrain and balance my single minion definitely helped some. If I can keep leveraging the concentration of a single minion via a decent ED, that would be a step in the right direction...

The Death Company [...] September 25 2006 12:04 PM EDT

im reasonably new but there are a few problems with running a GS haste team

the only way you can pull it off(and get decent gains) is to go with UC. Having weapon and upgrading them all the time costs way to much money and even with the UC being trained you can only train it so far before it starts eating into spells (i havent upped two of my minions UC since they hit level 4 because it eats in to my ED's same really goes for my archery).

To buy all my armour thats not rented ive had to give up buying a melee weapon for my front minion so thats getting mostly UC meaning im running low AMF so in quite a few fights i dont seem to return anything when decay hits me which is a pain

If i could restart i wouldn't go with a four team of haste GS and AS id go with a single tank ToA get as high as i could and then get the other stuff as things to bump it up futher. .. but then id have to give up the ToA to go with the RoS (and even now single DM mages shift my ED's with a RoS so at a higher level adding them late would probably make them more vunerable)

Maybe at the top its a lot unfairer where a single tank is bumped up by ED's but if there able to equip weapons on all off them there MPR is going to be sky high and they will have lost the use of the ToA and still be vunerable to DM teams who kept it all the way up

i seem to be only winning fights against some mage teams (MM and CoC mostly) and four minion tank teams maybe 3 minon tank teams. Teams with DM usually kill me and nerf everything down to 20 (one trained thing nerfs my whole team even before the first blow!)

If some one had unlimited funds then i guess you could be right but there gains would be would be rubbish and they would constantly be sinking money in upgrading 4 lots of weapons just to keep up with the other single tank teams

AvoidCXT September 25 2006 12:19 PM EDT

A single tank can almost always beat a 4 E/T team of equal pr. Lets say a single tank trains 100k dx, and a 4 e/t team trains a 100k dx, and each minion gets 68k dx. Even though it's a total of 272k dx, but they still can't hit the guy with 100k dx. As for GS, the total ST is a little more relevant than individual minion's ST, but that damage will be spread over 4 smaller weapons rather than 1 big one. Also 4 e/t teams have to worry about DM, and are hit harder by EC. Its a trade off, I'm not saying that single tanks are better than 4 e/t, my point is just that I don't see a reason that 4 e/t teams should be nerfed.

As for other ED spells-

AS - Made specifically for 4 minion teams. And total hp is much more relevant than total dx, that's why AS has a multi minion penalty. If 4 minion teams are to be nerfed, this is where it should happen, imo.

GA - The damage it will deal in any battle is related to the total hp of the character. Therefore it has a slight edge when its on 4 minion teams, but only because of the extra hp from AS.

Protection - The vhp it adds to a team is based on total hp, so just like GA, it has a slight advantage on 4 minion teams.

VA - It's easier to train on 4 minion teams, because they are likely to have lower per-minion damage, but overall life gain is based on total hp of the opponent, so its the same for a single tank as a 4 minion tank-based team. I wouldn't mind seeing some change to allow a single tank to train it at a level lower than damage.

As for single vs multi minion, its obvious that 4 minion characters are dominant, a quick look at the stats page reveals that. I think that is partly because of AS, but mostly because multi minion teams have significantly more options. What are the choices for a single minion? T or M, and the only real customization of that strat is that you get to pick a tat, skill, EO, and then prot/GA/VA or no ED. With four minions you could go EETM, EMMW, TTTT, or whatever else you can dream up, and then the real versatility comes from all the options for spell slots.

If you want to boost single minion teams, then boost single minion teams, there is no need to nerf everyone else. I'd like to see them with more versatility- perhaps a new EO spell to start with. What do all EO spells have in common? They are generally much more effective against 4 minion teams.

Adminedyit September 25 2006 2:58 PM EDT

"There should be a reason to train intrinsics over enchantments. If only to justify the higher untrain cost intrinsics have."

There is its called DM, nothing nerfs real HP, ST, DX.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] September 25 2006 3:20 PM EDT

except for exbow and axbow and EC

Radiskulle September 25 2006 4:14 PM EDT

"There should be a reason to train intrinsics over enchantments. If only to justify the higher untrain cost intrinsics have."

Compare the bonus to ST and DX you can get from items to the bonus you can get on an ED from items.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 25 2006 8:05 PM EDT

+24 from largest corn (without naming bonus) and +20 from current largest AoF (again without naming).

Trained Dex and Str can gain *more* from items. On a single minion.

For the whole team, Corn + AoF trumps whatever combination of Str+DEx items you can stick on a single minion.

The Death Company [...] September 25 2006 9:34 PM EDT

well thats why i went with four minions with the aim of getting four corns but i must be doing something wrong im yet to be able to buy a base corn let alone 4 of those at +12 (20 mill networth)

If youve got the money to sink in i agree (and said above) it could be an overpowered strat (not having to use UC id get the four biggest MH's and ELB's to go with the four biggest corns AoF's etc) but keeping 4 MH's and Elb with all the single tanks damage will be tough and all of that is big networth added to your team
(with my nub im struggling to just upgrade my SoD a bit at a time let alone MH ELB's Corns)

i still wouldnt like to face NWO's DM even if i did have the money to sink into all that gear as i know thats wiping out Mikels RoS based team

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 25 2006 9:39 PM EDT

STR is the issue, it seems to have become a larger part of the damage done, and thusly 4 (or 5!) T teams can do some decent damage without much NW.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 26 2006 3:26 AM EDT

It's not just the ability to make 'Transformer' teams, it's the ability to allow one minion to use thier XP to boost another (your main damage dealer) through enchantments. Being able to use the stats on every other minion is just pure bonus.

You don't give up anything for having multiple minions. You can have more spells, so strategic decisions are lessened, and you gain meat shields.

The Death Company [...] September 26 2006 3:45 AM EDT

well i still dont agree as i dont think there are many players who can afford all the +12 corns and weapons etc but i guess its a valid point if they can

guess i better save my exp up to convert
(cant believe i found an over powered strat)

AvoidCXT September 26 2006 8:05 AM EDT

Okay then, the largest GS not on a 4 ET team : Testy Tank. As you can see, not overpowered. If you think there is a better way to break GS, by all means go for it. The best way to prove that something is overpowered is to make yourself an overpowered team with it, as it always has been.

bartjan September 26 2006 8:06 AM EDT

"it's the ability to allow one minion to use thier XP to boost another (your main damage dealer) through enchantments."

This is only an attempt to repair the mistake made by hiring those other minions too soon ;)

QBsutekh137 September 26 2006 10:04 AM EDT

I don't follow you, bart? The quote you quote is exactly what I want, except for my mage -- the ability to bolster my main damage dealer since a second minion (even buying at my level) will be a puny little turd. I don't understand your "hire too soon part", as I think it would be impossible to say I have hired my other minions too soon. *smile*

bartjan September 26 2006 10:08 AM EDT

If you did hire that support minion at a later stage, the main damage dealer would have had more XP to invest into real ST/DX, which gives you more value per XP.

QBsutekh137 September 26 2006 3:52 PM EDT

Ah, I see.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] September 26 2006 4:07 PM EDT

I thought Bart meant that had you built your tank bigger before hiring other minions you wouldn't need haste/GS and could get something which would be more useful. Lets not forget that unless you get some really dumb combo any enchantment should augment your main damage dealers effectiveness whether directly or not.

Radiskulle September 27 2006 6:05 PM EDT

Okay, so if you use a +12 corn (which i think is ridiculous) and a +10 AoF, you claim that this is in line with the bonus you get from items. Haste casts at ~68% of the level of the spell. 0.68 * 1.24 * 1.2 = 1.01. A +1 pair of EB's matches that. Now suppose you dump your 20 mil nw on the corn and 1.5 mil nw from the AoF into dex gear. To make an even better comparison, lets value the corn at 2.2 mil base, the AoF at 800k base, EC at 1 mil, EG at 900k, and EB at 1.2 mil. So... roughly comparable to obtain the items. +12 EC (3.5 mil NW), +31 EB (11.3 mil NW), +15 EG (7.4 mil NW). That puts the total NW of the elven gear at a mere 700k more than the corn + AoF. Now we have 58% bonus on the xp invested in DX compared to the 1% bonus with the ED strat that you suggest. But wait! The ED strat is vulnerable to both EC AND DM, while the item strat is vulnerable to only EC (from a DX reducing perspective). Furthermore, you now get a 58% bonus to skills compared to the 20% with the AoF... but you could add an AoF to the mix to really blow your skill bonus out of the water. Even if you have 4 damage dealers (all of which would have piss damage, I might add... making you more vulnerable to GA, RBF, and endurance), they are not going to land too often vs. someone with so much more dex. This comparison is made equipping only 1 enchanter, by the way... someone else can run the numbers if you want to compare buying 4 +12 corns and 4 +10 AoF's.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 27 2006 6:14 PM EDT

"Haste casts at ~68% of the level of the spell. 0.68 * 1.24 * 1.2 = 1.01. A +1 pair of EB's matches that."

I never doubted that for a minute. I think you've missed the point.

You also have 84% DEX on your second minion.

And third, and forth.

Without having to spend any more XP...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 27 2006 6:19 PM EDT

For clarification, you'd be stupid to train a AS/Haste/GS on a single minion (without a familiar) and your post leave out the benefit these EDs give to other minions.

Which for Haste and GS has no minion count penalty, unlike AS (While AS still comes out on top, even with penalty. You could say HP is more important than DEX/STR, but that's a different topic!)

Radiskulle September 27 2006 6:34 PM EDT

My point was simply that the bonus is not nearly as good as seems to be suggested. My underlying point is that a multi-minion team propped up by by haste and GS has other weaknesses that balances out gaining stats on many minions, such as one who spends an equal amount of xp on dex as the multi-minion team and equal networth, but uses it on one damage dealer.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 28 2006 2:16 AM EDT

Gaining the stats on all minions is also just gravy. Where EDs like Haste and GS shine is the ability to use other minions XP to boost your main damage dealer.

But consider, f you have a four minion team, instead of training 12.5% of your Xp into both STR and DEX on your Tank, Train 25% into one of them, then use two other minions to train the ED version of the other. that wold be 25 *.86 or 17% from each, leaving your tank with 25% & 34% in its intrinsics, more than you would get just training naturally (12.5% and 12.5%) with two meat shields to saok up attacks.

Win Win. With the only vague weakness being DM. So slap a RoS on your team. Job done.

UltimaSpock [Forge Frog Services] September 28 2006 4:11 AM EDT

correct, but if the two Enchanters train ED, they cannot train something else.
so you lose their xp into something else.

QBgentleman, you should prove that nothing else can be better than improving your main damage dealer.

what could happened if they trained evasion, for instance?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 28 2006 5:41 AM EDT

"what could happened if they trained evasion, for instance?"

Simple Answer, They would get Fireballed to death in one round and the Damage dealer would still be screwed.

That is the reason to boost the damage dealer instead of trying to do something with the Enchanters that are meant to die in the first few rounds. If your lucky you may have AS on your team and under those circumstances you would have a few meat shields that will last a few more rounds. That is one thing to think about when trying to build your team.

UltimaSpock [Forge Frog Services] September 28 2006 6:15 AM EDT

ok evasion was not a good choice. and decay?

my point is that the xp you spend on GS or Haste can be spent on something else, and the efficiency of the spent xp depends entirely of your whole strategy...

gentleman says that DM is only a vague danger, and you can use a RoS anyway.

but then you cannot use a ToA...

so discussing of a supposedly advantage of one strat when using a few skills is useless because any efficient strat takes advantage of a few skills when they are adapted...

you could also speak of ToA +TSA+HG+...and says the advantages are too many...

or AG+AoF+ToE for a mage...

job done

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 28 2006 6:56 AM EDT


This was never a strategy discussion...

QBsutekh137 September 28 2006 10:12 AM EDT

I agree 100% with Draco's comment above, at least in my situation. There is really nothing I can do with a puny second minion other than try to boost my mage's damage output and/or cast an offensive enchantment (DM being the obvious choice since AMF or EC would be too small). The other choice (a defensive enchantment) doesn't seem very strong since there is nothing to offensively help my mage. What is the point of AS or GA when I get hit with 1,500,000 blows? And there is definitely no point to GS, Haste, or VA. Sure, I could try to make the second minion into a shield of sorts, but I don't need to when I can just train a huge evasion on my mage -- I WANT the mage to be physically targetted in ranged. Good luck hitting him (he has an effective Evasion of 110). *smile*

Other than that, the second minion gives me three big things: a kill slot (at the back, so even works on MM), a tattoo slot (meaning my mage can boost damage with a CoI, and a bit of dilution against spreadfire magics (perhaps buying me an extra round against FB and CoC mages). I assure you I am not planning on training one drop of HP on the next minion.

Sorry to continue the hijack of your thread, GL. *smile*

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 28 2006 10:36 AM EDT

NP. ;)

"I assure you I am not planning on training one drop of HP on the next minion."

Then train a base Decay on him. You've notihng to lose doing so! It won't take sekers away from your mage at front, and if you don't face FB/MM he will live to melee.

He might do massive dmaage versus a single target, but if he faces 100% AMF, he'll only do 10HP damage to himself.

Now, back on track. If there was an ED that boosted your Mage, would it make it an easier choice to purchase another, or more minions?

You get the most out of DD atm by staing single, as only XP cocentration boosts DD. But if you could get a second minion to pump your DD, would there be any reason not to take it?

QBsutekh137 September 28 2006 10:56 AM EDT

There is no doubt I need a second minion, mainly for the extra reasons I mention (tattoo holding being a HUGE one). You see, I suck against normal arrows because my SF bites it. I want and need for my mage to be in front. I would have him wear an Amulet Of Try-To-Kill-Me-First if I could...

Yes, I was planning on training base Decay and base Protection on that second minion as well. It can't hurt.

As far as hiring minions, I would see absolutely zero reason to train a third one. A third minion would only give me more dilution and another kill slot. I suppose I could stack up some more DM (just from the large MPR increase a third minion would offer), but with having a dedicated DM minion out of only 2, I think my DM will grow fast enough. Probably better just to buy BA and grow the existing minions/tattoo.

A lot of my ideas would change were I to start pumping NW with USD. Then a Wall minion starts to look more attractive. But I'm not doing that. A Wall without net worth is well-nigh useless to me. I would rather use money on BA, saving for a new minion, insta-ing my tattoo up, or the occasional + to AGs/CoI... All offense, all the time, powered by MPR.

However, if an ED were introduced that boosted magic in some way (per my other thread from Sunday), I could definitely see devoting a third minion to that (once 30 million dropped out of the sky for me -- the cost is prohibitive). That would end me up with a stance:


Since I am a narcissist, I am obviously already in love with "ME", so "MEE" would be that much better, right? *smile*

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 28 2006 11:57 AM EDT

"However, if an ED were introduced that boosted magic in some way (per my other thread from Sunday), I could definitely see devoting a third minion to that (once 30 million dropped out of the sky for me -- the cost is prohibitive). That would end me up with a stance:"

And if that ED option was there from the start, would you have had any reason not to start with more than one minion Sute?

(Well, apart from wanting the largest FB possible... :P)

QBsutekh137 September 28 2006 12:02 PM EDT

Yes, I would still wait in order to be able to buy into MPR with a minion purchase.

One could argue there is no difference between saving money to buy a minion and just starting with two and using the money for BA... I'm not sure which is more effective. I bought a lot of BA during my NCB and was able to get a large MPR. So now large leaps in MPR are an option for me -- I like options.

So, I would stick with single minion provided I could find targets and play effectively (which I think I was able to during my NCB).

Now I would just like something useful to "spend" additional minions on, hence my desire for a mage-boosting ED.
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