Is there a reason not to start over with a NCB character? (in General)
September 28 2006 2:39 PM EDT
Other than losing your pretty high 1 mil MPR+ character?
September 28 2006 2:45 PM EDT
I find once I get up to around 700k MPR, things start getting boring. That's around when you start getting farmed mercilessly by those much higher than you, and unless you invest lots of $US, you just can't compete.
So, I just keep starting new NCBs, putting my old gear in rentals, and slowly upgrading the gear I need. I find it's much more enjoyable to try out new strategies than to keep modifying an old one, trying to get one more person into your fightlist.
BA cost to cash rewards ratio is brutal. Buying BA every day for the duration will cost you over 25M plus all the cash you make from free BA.
September 28 2006 2:49 PM EDT
say I use most of my BA during my NCB but I don't buy any...around what MPR can I expect to end up?
I am on a tight budget...and forging for cash is getting pretty boring :P
September 28 2006 2:51 PM EDT
Do you enjoy running your current char? Do you still get a kick out of trying to improve it?
With the NCB you get the enjoyment of trying out something new and the satisfaction of seeing it grow much more quickly. And boy, do those characters grow quickly in comparison to non bonus chars......
The only reason I wouldn't if I was in your position would be the amount of time I'd been running the char. If I was in your position I might hold on until Jan 1st. Then retire it and start over. A nice little monument to the time you've spent here!
September 28 2006 2:52 PM EDT
I fight a lot, and don't buy ba. I'm at about 650 mpr, with a month left to go.
September 28 2006 2:53 PM EDT
Oh yeah, they're right. If you like buying BA, well, save up LOTS of $cb if you want to continue doing so with an NCB.
At 500k MPR, each BA now costs me 836 $cb
September 28 2006 2:56 PM EDT
wow thats not bad at all...maybe I will start my NCB sooner then I expected and try out some funky strat for fun :D
September 28 2006 2:56 PM EDT
Yep. The NCB is great. This gives me a chance to put myself right up there with some of you other guys, in the higher up competition. I also have been wanting to find a permanent strat I could stick to for quite some time, so this'll let me have a nice fixated strat to stick with.
1. Pressure to fight as much BA as possible and buy it all so as not to stunt the growth of your team - after all, this is a once-every-4-month opportunity.
2. BA cost. Holy mackeral. Very expensive.
3. Miscellaneous expenses. If you need to buy anything at all, you have to be doubly sure it is *ABSOLUTELY* necessary so as not to spend too much of your precious NCB BA buying $$$.
I lover my NCB though.
maelstrom: what are your rewards like if you are 500k mpr and paying 836 per ba, im only paying 406 per bad at over 1 mil mpr
September 28 2006 3:09 PM EDT
That's a very loaded question, because it depends on what your goals are.
If your are of the mind-set that you get the most enjoyment out of trying new strats and don't care how big you get your character, then there is no reason not to, as Maelstrom and Johnny said.
If, on the other hand, you want to end up with a character as big or bigger than the one you left behind, then there are 2 caveats that I have from my experience, so far - the expense, and the time to dedicate to 4 months of intense blazing of every last BA you can keep your eyes open for, so as not to waste the XP bonus - like BBQ said.
My example is that by the 15th, when mine is up, I'm estimating I'll be at about 1.2 mil MPR or so. That's with 4 minions from the start, and 3 missed or partially missed "Tuesday mornings" in August, and 8 hours of missed BA every night.
My point is that, depending on your dedication level, your CB$ budget, and number of minion choice, you could easily blaze by where you would be with your current character in 4 months.
It's all about what "CB Happiness is..." to you. :)
September 28 2006 3:18 PM EDT
db: here are my rewards from my last set of BA:
You are awarded $182 and your Minions receive 127 exp each. Clan bonus: 11.4%.
You are awarded $429 and your Minions receive 107 exp each. Clan bonus: 11.4%.
You are awarded $182 and your Minions receive 148 exp each. Clan bonus: 11.4%.
You are awarded $363 and your Minions receive 145 exp each. Clan bonus: 11.4%.
You are awarded $286 and your Minions receive 135 exp each. Clan bonus: 11.4%.
You are awarded $429 and your Minions receive 100 exp each. Clan bonus: 11.4%.
You are awarded $286 and your Minions receive 138 exp each. Clan bonus: 11.4%.
You are awarded $176 and your Minions receive 140 exp each. Clan bonus: 11.4%.
As you can see, there's quite a variation for cash, but XP is usually averages about 130.
Also note that I'm fighting opponents with scores about twice my PR.
September 28 2006 3:19 PM EDT
I'm reckoning that I fight pretty much as often as BM, although I've missed a week through holiday, and I don't buy BA. BM is looking to get about 1.2 million in MPR, I reckon I'll come in at just about 900k-1 million if I maintain my pace, but probably at the lower end of that estimate.
That should give people an idea of the benefits of BA buying!
As Jon said unless you plan on fighting more BA per day then there is no point in getting an NCB as you wont get any higher than you would if you carried on using your current character (unless you restarted without a bonus at some point obviously)
Unless you are sure you will fight more with a NCB than you do now, there is *no* reason to satrt a new NCB character,over playing your existing one.
I'll dig out the maths if I really have to! :P
September 28 2006 3:43 PM EDT
You have choices to make.
Motivation to start an NCB is what?
If it's for fun and to experiment with a new strat then there's no reason not to do it.
If it's to break into the top ten then you will have to spend USD to purchase your BA as you don't have enough cash on your chars from what I can see.
If it's to overtake your current char and get into the top 50 then you can prolly do that without too much trouble and with limited BA purchase and a good strat.
September 28 2006 4:02 PM EDT
Surely the point is, if you keep to the same fight pattern you are bound to pass yourself (in a manner of speaking) within the four months.
At the end of the day, you are never going to reach the top without lots of cash. The only way to get that is to spend time playing, whether with the same team or not. And ultimately, when you have the cash, the only way to get there in a reasonable time is to start an NCB.
So in my view, there is no reason not to start over, and every reason to have a bit of fun before the final push.
(Just waiting until changemonth is over to start my next NCB)
just to point out, you do not have to lose your higher character. you can retire, unretire and immediately retire again and keep your current character. i did this with grasshopper while building heat up and still have grasshopper, not sure why though, hehe.
September 28 2006 5:02 PM EDT
Maybe you should check out how much BA you are actually getting Dude by keeping your higher char active.
If you do this, on your lower char you will get the BA refresh of your higher char. If your lower char is on 9 BA refresh what you will actually get is 9 BA on the first, but if you let it accumulate you only get 8 for each successive refresh.
my ncb on heat ended months ago, that may have been the case. i don't really remember though. perhaps it was feasible due to the fact that grasshopper was only about 800k pr at that time and with a higher level character it wouldn't be.
September 28 2006 5:13 PM EDT
GL: I would like the numbers, as from my experience (no pun intended) you DO get successively higher PR/MPR.
You end up with one higher than you left your previous character but the bonus is meant to only give you what you would have had having played those 4 months also with the same amount of "effort"
September 28 2006 6:31 PM EDT
Shade it is very simple.
Do you want to learn something new?
I use an NCB everytime I can. Last one didn't go anywhere (for other reasons) and my first on reached within 5k MPR of my NUB (pretty good if you think about it;) hard to get that close)
It's fun. You learn. Do it if you want to.
OK, it's something like this; (Sorry if my maths is cluncky, it's late and I'm tred. :P)
When yo started your character, your original bonus was set up to allow you to reach 95% of the current top MPR in the game, at the end of your bonus time. With equal effort.
I'll call the current top MPR x and the increase y.
So, your orignal character was set up to reach 0.95 * (x + y).
You reached some percentage of that total, 'a'. Or a * 0.95 * (x + y)
If you started again, the game would calculate your new bonus to take you to 0.95 * (x + y + z) with z being the increase in MPR over the course of your new bonus time.
If you had continued playing your old character, you would be at a * 0.95 * (x + y) +z (as you have equal effort to the top player, and therefore equal gain in MPR.
If you start again, with the same effort (you will reach the same percent of the top MPR you did originally) you would get to a * 0.95 * (x + y + z).
So it's 'a * 0.95 * (x + y) +Z' compared to 'a * 0.95 * (x + y + z)'
With the same effort, if you contiue to play your existing character you will always gain 0.05% of z, the increase in MPR you gain during bonus time, over what you would starting again.
Only by playing more, and putting more effort into your new character can you surpase what you would achieve with your old one.
Or something like that. ;)
GL, your math assumes that Shade has been playing exactly the same since the beginning. The NCB allows you to essentially "erase" all those times when you dropped the ball. Let's grade an effort E as a percentage of perfection, perfection being max daily BA (24 hours + bought BA). If you play with an E of , say, 97% during your 4 months of NCB, that equates to... what are we now.. 21 months or so of an E of (.9 * .95), or 92% As Ranger has said so many many times, it's very easy to play hard and strong for 4 months. It's much harder to do it for 21 months. The NCB allows you to "fill in the gaps" that you've left along the way as you built your main character.
But it's all based on equivalent effort. You fight 50% fo your total BA over 12 months, you'll get to the same place if you fight 50% of your BA over 4 bonus months. (well, 95% of z that is)
Plus, it's harder to fight more with a NCB, as BA costs increase and you don't get increased rewards.
"The NCB allows you to essentially "erase" all those times when you dropped the ball."
Yup. in essence, things like untrianing is really the same as spending less BA (to make up for the MPR drop).
If you've retrained a lot, had holidays, etc, and don't plan to do anything like that for your next bomus time (maybe you can fit not taking a holiday into four months) you'll do better.
But, having a weeks holidy in bonus time is far more detrimental than having a week off in non bonus time.
Right, but this is what's wrong:
"Unless you are sure you will fight more with a NCB than you do now..."
The NCB is all about what you do now. The point of using it is that what you do now can't fix what you DID do in the past unless you use an NCB. That's what I meant when I said you were wrong.
September 29 2006 3:14 AM EDT
One little tip for anyone going NCB for the first time. It's tempting to sell a large tattoo and use the money to fund BA buying.
BUT....if you have the biggest tattoo you can lay your hands on, your tattoo size will always be at Max. Your tattoo and therefore your char will always that much more powerful than if you were growing a tattoo. You will find you are able to fight up that bit more, increasing your rewards, making your char grow that bit faster.
So, Shade, don't consider selling your tattoo, unless you really want to grow another from scratch.....
"The NCB is all about what you do now. The point of using it is that what you do now can't fix what you DID do in the past unless you use an NCB. That's what I meant when I said you were wrong."
Sorry mate, I don't understand your point?
Taking holidays, retrains etc as minus BA, unless you fight more with a NCB than you did on your existing character, you will gain more on your existing character.
If you messed up royally, took long breaks, retrained numerous times, then re starting could help.
Actually, selling tattoos is a horrible idea. The market is totally shot. I can't get even $10m for my $27m NW named SF. If your tattoo is big, it's worthless.
September 29 2006 4:49 AM EDT
Well as far as the tattoo goes, I perhaps want to make a character without one...
September 29 2006 4:57 AM EDT
Go RoE until you can equip your old, big tattoo. I'm working towards that as well =)
About the NCB itself, if you regularly miss BA, you probably won't reach the height you were before. I won't reach 1mil MPR either now. But, it is fun to start over though! More fun than struggling along at the top, I might add.
Going NCB will give you a whole new perspective on CB. Yes, it is expensive, no it doesn't have that much plus sides when it comes to money, MPR and all... but it is fun fighting tiny characters you never heard of, watching your char grow... I say, go Shade!
September 29 2006 5:01 AM EDT
That's the most important factor for me. Fun. Lots of other reasons come into it, but the main reason I've lost interest with my NCB's so far is that I hit The Dead Zone. That area where everyone is stuck, jostling for one extra bit of score week in week out. And that's just not fun.
I'm in a Dead Zone with a character I started in first couple months of CB, very rarely get different people in my list except those that fight 'every' BA per day whereas I'm just using most, clan members are scarce, 3-pointers even more so, those above either have large MPR or large NW.
Dead Zones aren't just an NCB problem :)
It ain't just tattoos that have no market, but characters as well.
With their transfer costs, you can't even give them away! :P
September 29 2006 5:52 AM EDT
True the biggest worries are my semi huge ToA and my 1 mil + MPR character that I most likely won't rid myself off for a nice price.
Also the cost? Who says I will be buying BA? I hardly ever did with this current character, which is the reason I'm not in the top 10 now anyway.
Perhaps I could remove 1 minion and remodel the character completely from scratch, but that would be a waste of also.
Why change though? Are you bored?
Single minions are good for DD, UC or a monster ToA Tank (either Archery or BL) but two minions will get you the abilty to wear a tattoo and a MgS. ;)
September 29 2006 6:37 AM EDT
A 2 minion ToA based tank team doesn't...
Sure it does! ;) you just can't have the MgS wearer be an Enchanter or a Mage! ;)
September 29 2006 8:55 AM EDT
Shade, why not just hire another minion? Err, I suppose the cost...
September 29 2006 9:11 AM EDT
GL: my tank uses the ToA, not my enchanter...
Maelstrom: why hire another minion? I'd want to lose one instead...
;) Differnet problem Shade.
You can't have a ToA Tank using an MgS, and you can't have the second minion an Enchanter/Mage if you want to use a MgS on it.
But, two minions will allow you to use a Tattoo and MgS on your team, while a Single minion won't.
What is it about your Two minion team that is losing appeal for you?
September 29 2006 9:59 AM EDT
Well, I still like it, quite much actually but one can always dream.
With the new changes and all, I thought it perhaps be a decent strategy to start a single tank without using any tattoo. Just old CB1 style with the new items then.
Still not sure, still mixing and matching and thinking and doubting...
In the long run, I think you're probably gimping yourself if you don't use any tattoos.
My Tattoo is level 211,570 and adds 57,540 to my PR. If we assume that the XP gained by the tattoo is roughly 1/3 of it's level (as it gains 1/3 of the XP you do from fighting) it should add around 70,523.
So my tattoo is adding around 82% of what having that amount of XP should.
Or something like that. :P
Use an RoE until you are positively forced into either armor or a real tattoo.
Also, If you buy all of your BA in the beginning of the NCB while it's still cheap, it will do wonders later on. Every bought day is like 6 bought days without an NCB.
September 29 2006 2:38 PM EDT
Say I train my HP ST and DX evenly, I then at around 90k MPR turn out with close to 70k of them all (I tested this during free untrain)
I then have:
With the following items:
I have a total of 47% ST bonus and 43% DX bonus.
This makes my stats:
ST: 103k (rounded a little)
DX: 100k (rounded a little)
If I then look at it, that's a 60k 'bonus' of stats. And 60/210*100% = 30% stats bonus. this comes along with those stats being worth more experience.
Also those items don't add as much PR to my character as a tattoo would do so I don't think it would be too bad.
September 29 2006 8:48 PM EDT
shade, 10 + 10 + 25 = 45, not 43 :P
you get 45% bonus to DX and 47% to ST. lol.
But Shade, to use a Tattoo on that minion (and not taking into accont using it on a second minion) you would only have to lose;
Or 10% DEX and 25% STR to gain the tattoo bonus. A ToA beats that hands down.
You just need a second minion to use the MgS...
September 30 2006 8:57 AM EDT
Sorry to flog this to death, but I'm missing something.
GL, in your maths (cheers for that, by the way), aren't the two 'x's different? ie the x back on the earlier character is a lot different to the x for the new one (It's actually x+y I think?).
Also, the effort part - is this based on your fighting pattern, or the fighting pattern of the top players?
I've tried looking this up in the changelog, but it's kinda vague for NCB with respect to "equivalent effort"
If you have fought 300 ba with your character each day on average since you started and were to keep that average for the next 4 months you would be roughly the same MPR as if you started an NCB and kept that same average for those 4 months.
I agree vaguely with GL's equations as he knows more than me ;P but I'm giving my vague explanation as to how it should work in reality.
September 30 2006 10:26 AM EDT
Flamey, if I am still correct, you suffer 1% DX penalty from the Mage Shield, and another 1% DX penalty from the Trollskin Armor.
that makes 45 - 2 = 43%...
September 30 2006 10:28 AM EDT
GL: the ToA might beat 25% ST and 10% DX bonus but does it also beat:
50% magic resistance in round 1
37.5% magic resistance in round 2
31.25% magic resistance in round 3
and so on to say 25% additional magic resistance in all rounds
? does it?
and you can't forget that your AC will be higher with the TSA & EC ... that has to count for something.
Shade, that's why you use the MgS on a second minion! ;)
"Sorry to flog this to death, but I'm missing something."
NP mate! ;) I love this sort of stuff, even when I'm wrong! :P
"GL, in your maths (cheers for that, by the way), aren't the two 'x's different? ie the x back on the earlier character is a lot different to the x for the new one (It's actually x+y I think?)."
The 'x' never changes. That is the current MPR of the top spot the moment you make your original character.
Originally, your bonus is for (x +y). Next time round it's for that value plus an additional four month increase.
You could claim this changes if the top charcater changes between your bonus times, but for simplicity, I'll assume it doesn't. ;)
"Also, the effort part - is this based on your fighting pattern, or the fighting pattern of the top players?"
Yours. The increase over the four months your bonus is based on (y or z repsecitvely) is based on your opponents effort.
From the total MPR the bonus calculates you to reach at the end, it's your effort that determins if you reach it. Equal the effor of the top spot and you will. Work harder (be that more spent BA or less untrains/hlidays) and you will surpasse that.
The assumption here is that as you haven't reached the top spot before changing to a new bonus character, if you keep the same work rate, you won't do it again.
I hope this makes sense!
And please correct me if I've got anything worng here, it's the only way I learn! ;)
September 30 2006 1:41 PM EDT
If I'm not wrong, a long time ago when Jon was adjusting the NUB, didn't he state that it would allow you to reach 90% of the highest MPR? And don't the NUB and NCB share the same EXP bonus?
So then technically, you have to work 10% harder to get where you were. And unless you work 110% as hard as the top MPR character, you won't equal them, much less surpass them.
Or at least, that's what I'm thinking. Maybe I missed something, seeing as how sometime afterwards I left CB for 2 or 3 months. *grins*
I believe 95% with a similar fight density was the figure. However if the NUB has not been recalibrated since Mantra bought his minions at the end of his NUB you won't get to 95% without doing the same. We might assume that some contingency for the NUB making a relatively slow start was built in which should give a boost to a vet versed in maximizing rewards, I don't know. Of course the RoE throws all this out of the window :).
OB, I've not seen anything that has changed it from 95% to 90%. :/
BL, I'm under the impression that the bonus recalibrates, or really recalculates ever time a new bonus charcater is created. The manual recalibration was just something Jon did to keep the bonus ammount correct to where he wanted it. ;)
A NCB started today would have a larger bonus than my current NCB which is coming to the end of it's bonus time. The bonus amounts are not static.
Well the last word from Jon on the matter was that the only thing which changes is the time based part of the equation. It has always been the case that it goes up constantly due to that.
The bonus equals 0.57413% * days CB2 has been running.
On the day you make your bonus character?
That makes no sense, as it doesn't take into account the top MPR, nor how you would be able to reach 95% of it...
NS that's incorrect.
My last NCB character was created on July 3rd 2006, and has a bonus of 163%.
549 days after CB2 started.
So, my bonus should be 315.2%. Which it isn't.
October 1 2006 11:09 AM EDT
OK, just to throw another factor into the mix :-)
Is it best to retire characters before creating your NCB, to get a better BA refresh, or is this "un herring rouge"?
October 1 2006 11:10 AM EDT
Of course it is wisest to retire your highest/higher characters when starting an NCB character, but that's besides the point :p
First have to have a plan before even beginning to create one ;)
GL as I stated earlier the last word from Jon on this was that the nub does not take into account the top mpr on the fly. That part of the bonus is adjusted manually. Now that may not make sense to you or others but as far as we know thats the way it is.
October 1 2006 12:02 PM EDT
Well, since I lost the chance for a reasonably good MH last night, have to go with single UC.
Now, Gi or ToA with AoF?
Or is there a way for single MM?
"GL as I stated earlier the last word from Jon on this was that the nub does not take into account the top mpr on the fly. That part of the bonus is adjusted manually. Now that may not make sense to you or others but as far as we know thats the way it is."
BL, I don't suppose you remember where you saw that? I can't remember reading anything like that. :/
There you go GL, there are 2 relevant posts, near the end. http://cb2.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001jcb
Thanks! :D Off to read. ;)
"But if the NUB/NCB is based on something else, rather than the top MPR at the time of character/account creation, then I am wrong.
--QBRanger, March 7 2006 6:54 PM EST"
"Ranger: that is how I calibrate the NUB/NCB bonus, but none of the coefficients I described is automatically changed, except of course the time-based one(s).
--Jonathan, March 7 2006 11:03 PM EST"
"Since apparently a lot of people missed the explanation in what I call "the bartjan thread" even though someone else started it, the NUB works like this:
Rate * Duration ~ time CB2 has been open
Right now, Duration is capped at 4 months, so every day the rate a new player gets goes up a bit.
--Jonathan, July 3 2005 10:03 PM EDT"
Huh. So the top MPR the Bonus is working on isn't automatically calculated at time of bonus character creation, but at the set figure of what it was the last time Jon manually calibrated it...
I see the logic behind that.
Once set once for a stable figure, as long as that player keeps gaining steadily at the same rate, increasing the bonus amount based on increased time is fine.
But wouldn't the purchase of the extra minions the Top MPR character did a while ago throw this out?
yep, but which is the lesser evil, a nub which doesn't get you to 95% or the ability to constantly leapfrog?
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