UC and the Wiki. Confused? I am.... (in General)

QBJohnnywas October 3 2006 8:33 AM EDT

Ok the UC section in the wiki says this about UC's evasion:

"Training this skill also confers an Evasion effect equal to 1/3 of trained UC effect. Evasion granted by the UC skill is doubled during Ranged combat.
UC's conferred Evasion effect is also more effective in ranged combat: x4 during the first ranged round, x3 during the 2nd, and x2 during the last. "

Now, the 1/3 of UC level in evasion I can understand. And the idea that it is double during ranged. But the x4, etc in the second paragraph from the recent changes - does that mean that now it is only doubled in the last ranged round and quadrupled and tripled in round 1 and 2? Should that second sentence in the first paragraph be removed?

Have I made sense? lol

QBJohnnywas October 3 2006 8:40 AM EDT

and actually, that x4, x3, x3 during ranged..was that because of the boost to evasion. Wasn't normal evasion dropped down? Is the Wiki just wrong?

AdminShade October 3 2006 8:44 AM EDT

it was 4 times 1/3 of the UC level in round 1 of ranged.
it was 3 times 1/3 of the UC level in round 2 of ranged.
it was 2 times 1/3 of the UC level in round 3 of ranged.

This only reflects the multiplied effectiveness of evasion in ranged rounds and concludes that the same case is with the evasion obtained from UC.

QBJohnnywas October 3 2006 8:46 AM EDT

But is that 4 times the doubled ranged evasion effect? Or simply 4 times the normal evasion effect? Is the whole Wiki entry on UC in need of a rewrite?

(Now I've finally bit the bullet and made my first Wiki edit I can do the rewrite, but I just need to confirm the details!)

AdminShade October 3 2006 9:01 AM EDT

simply 4 times the normal evasion effect...

but i think this was written when the evasion effect was in fact quadrupled and tripled...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 3 2006 9:04 AM EDT

That entry is wrong now anyway.

Evasion was changed to have x3 effect in round 1, 7/3 in round two and 5/3 in round three.

This is applied to the Evasion UC grants.

A level 300K UC grants an Evasion of 100K in melee and 200K in Ranged.

This would be changed to;

Round 1: 600K
Round 2: 466~K
Round 3: 333~K

A Combat Gi confuses matters.

It adds 1/3 of UC as additional Evasion. But DBs aren't effect my the Evaison ranged boost, so I'm unsure whether the Gi is.

Adding in a Gi, and taking it not having the ranged bonus would give;

Ranged1: 700K Evasion
Ranged2: 566~K Evasion
Ranged3: 433~K Evasion

Melee: 200K Evasion

QBJohnnywas October 3 2006 9:09 AM EDT

So - combat gi aside - the wiki entry should read?:

"Training this skill also confers an Evasion effect equal to 1/3 of trained UC effect. Evasion granted by the UC skill is x3 during the first ranged round, x7/3 during the 2nd, and x5/3 during the last. "


QBJohnnywas October 3 2006 9:17 AM EDT

Well, I hope that is the case, because that's what the Wiki now says lol!

Flamey October 3 2006 9:21 AM EDT

that is correct ;)

QBOddBird October 3 2006 9:47 AM EDT

Yeah, you got it right, Johnnywas. That was my edit; made it when the Evasion change occured and forgot to go back and correct it when the ranged bonus was reduced.

And GL, the Evasion ranged effect with a Gi would be:

Round 1: 900k
Round 2: 700k
Round 3: 500k

Melee: 200k

And you had it right without the Gi.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 3 2006 9:50 AM EDT

OB, that's *only* if the Gi gets the evasion bonus. Item based Evasion doesn't (DB don't Jon has stated that).

Is the Gi classed as item or skill based evasion. I can't answer that. :/

Flamey October 3 2006 9:53 AM EDT

thats a tricky subject, i believe that the Gi has to add to UC's trained level for it to count for the evasion bonus, like putting an AoF on it, which actually increases the trained level would work. but i would say it doesn't work, because it's not adding to the trained level of UC, only adding effect.

QBOddBird October 3 2006 9:55 AM EDT

Take this for example, then.

Elven Boots add a % to your Evasion, and that percent also receives the bonus.
Gi works the same way.
I can pretty well confirm that the Gi adds that much Defensive DX by the opponents I fight.

What *DOESN'T* add to it is DBs/AoI, which give the -PTH part of Evasion, but not Defensive DX....and they don't get the bonus, their -PTH effect is converted and added to Evasion as though it were that level, minus the Def. DX and that converted amount does not recieve the bonus.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 3 2006 9:55 AM EDT

But DB has an effective trained level, based on how item and skill evasion stacks.

The levels of both are added and a new effect is found.

But the DB level isn't increased by the ranged changes to evasion.

Why should the Gi?

QBOddBird October 3 2006 9:57 AM EDT

Because the Gi isn't adding that. It is increasing UC's already-inherent Evasion effect.

It's simply increasing it from acting as 2/3 to 3/3. It isn't directly adding to the Def. DX or -PTH.

I know what I'm trying to say, but trying to find a way to make it come out so it is easier to understand....=(

QBJohnnywas October 3 2006 9:59 AM EDT

I understand what you're trying to say. With the GI on the total evasion effect is higher. It's not an addition of two different levels. It's_just_a_different_level.

Flamey October 3 2006 10:04 AM EDT

to get a total, don't you have to do something mathematically? add? subtract?

i really don't understand this, though i want to. OB, do you think you can give us an example with a few numbers? don't have to be real, just make sense :)

QBJohnnywas October 3 2006 10:06 AM EDT

I do understand what OB-BBQ is saying here.

There is no addition going on. There are two levels, one UC without Gi, and one with. They're separate.

If you choose to go ToA you get one evasion effect. If you choose to wear the proper uniform you've trained to the higher level.

They are sperate!

QBJohnnywas October 3 2006 10:07 AM EDT

*seperate :/

QBJohnnywas October 3 2006 10:08 AM EDT

*separate get it right!!!!

PirateKing October 3 2006 10:10 AM EDT

Sperate is funnier. :D

QBJohnnywas October 3 2006 10:12 AM EDT

That was one of my more amusing comedy moments....

QBOddBird October 3 2006 10:13 AM EDT

JW explains it best =D Thanks for saying what I couldn't get out!

QBJohnnywas October 3 2006 10:15 AM EDT

You got it out there. I hadn't actually thought of it like that before you said it!

Now if I can just remember how to spell separate....

Flamey October 3 2006 10:20 AM EDT

sorry for being thick, but an evasion of (50) with a Gi acts exactly the same as an evasion of (60) without a Gi?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 3 2006 10:24 AM EDT

But it's not know whether the Gi does that...

"Grants Evasion based on Pre bonus UC"

It grants the wearer 1/3 of thier trained UC level as evasion.

First, is it skill based, or items based?

If you have 300K UC, it grants the wearer an Evasion of 100K, in addition to thier UC based Evasion (200/100K).

It doesn't matter if this stacks like an item or a skill. you get 200/100K + 100K.

What does matter it item based Evasion (DB) doesn't gain a benefit from the ranged increase, while skill based (Eva/UC) does.

Is the Gi item based or Skill? If skill based, then yet, just add the 100K and multiply by the anged bonus.

If it's item based, it won't get this, but will add directly to your AoI and DB.

QBOddBird October 3 2006 10:24 AM EDT

(50) with a Gi, in melee, is 33.3.
(60) w/o a Gi, in melee, is 20.

With Gi: 2/3 of its trained level acts as Evasion during melee.
Without Gi: 1/3 of its trained level acts as Evasion during melee.

The static bonus UC added by HG and Gi won't act as Evasion, but the trained level and whatever affects that percentage-wise (Elvens, AoF) does.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 3 2006 10:25 AM EDT

DB and AoI doesn't get the ranged bonus.

Why do you think another item does OB?

QBOddBird October 3 2006 10:33 AM EDT

GL, DB and AoI work very differently. They add directly to the level by effect. For example, if you have a (1) Evasion trained and you add +130 DBs, you have a (130) Evasion, minus the Defensive DX - hence the reason for it not to be multiplied in Ranged rounds.

The Combat Gi simply takes the inherent Evasion bonus that the UC skill gives and causes it to be greater.

Same kind of ordeal as Elven Gears, which *DO* increase the Evasion and this change is also taken into effect during Ranged rounds, except they increase it by multiplying it by a percentage.

DB: Adds itself as a trained level to your Evasion. (item)
HG: Adds itself as a trained level to your UC. (item)
Gi: Causes the inherent bonus to increase. (skill)
Elvens: Multiplies the trained level of the skill. (skill)

And no, there's nowhere where it states this or differentiates how the items affect the bonus explicitly, this is simply from an observational standpoint.

QBJohnnywas October 3 2006 10:39 AM EDT

I think OB is right here. The ranged bonus is not given to the Gi, it's given to the raised power the Gi gives.

Think of the non Gi wearing UC guy as a novice fighter and the Gi wearing guy as a Master of Kung Fu. He gets the bonus because he chooses to wear the Gi.

It's not the item that gets the bonus. It's the person who has trained UC.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 3 2006 10:39 AM EDT

"The Combat Gi simply takes the inherent Evasion bonus that the UC skill gives and causes it to be greater."

That would be your interpretation of "Grants Evasion based on Pre bonus UC" ;)

Why have a distinction of item and skill based evasion, when an item doesn't grant item based evasion?

It seems clunky.

If the Gi aguements trained evasion, why not say so in the item description? Change it to "Increases the amount of Evasion UC gives from 2/3-1/3 to 1-2/3" or something like that?


QBOddBird October 3 2006 10:45 AM EDT

It isn't the fact that it is an item augmenting it, it is the MANNER in which it is augmented!

Items that give an 'item-based' increase: Gi (to UC, static 10), AoI, DBs, HGs

Items that give a 'skill-based' increase: Elvens, Cornuthaum, etc.

This is how I look at it.

But like I said, this is from an observational standpoint. Perhaps you'd like to do tests with me to make sure of how it works, so that we can clarify in the Wiki? =)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 3 2006 10:53 AM EDT

:P No Way! ;) Testing that sort of thing would be beyond me!

I agree with you though, maybe we could petition to get item/skill modifiers changed to level/effect modifiers?

If we're correct! ;)

QBsutekh137 October 3 2006 11:01 AM EDT

My head hurts...

All I can say is that I am glad I use magic... I don't know how anyone can hit a large UC minion! Then again, I am forgetting that training UC means Evasion obviously can't be trained (as a separate skill).

Note the spelling of "separate". *smile*
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