Rare Weapon Changes (in General)


Godpanda October 23 2006 4:55 PM EDT

Well, I took Dei's advice (however rudely given lol) and did some searching. Did the highest 30 players and got some data. Did around 1 mil score too.


So here is what I got.

BoNE: 17
Exec: 11
Morg: 32 *shudder*
VB: 17
ELS: 3 (what the heck?)
BoT: 14
Katana: 8
hehehehehehe Tulwar: 1

Well, I think its time for a change. It seems -relatively- balanced BUT there is something wrong with there being 3 rare weapons in over a hundred characters.

Here is my advice concerning ELS. Give it a base bonus of 15% to DX and skills. Won't change. A constant 15%. VOID when equipped on a minion with Evasion trained. I know this is unfair but someone like ranger putting a ELS on a evasion wall would literally make it unhittable.

Any ideas?

While this may seem a bit extreme, it does two things.

AdminJonathan October 23 2006 6:25 PM EDT

i think most people don't realize that the ELS does a nontrivial amoutn more damage than the BTH

(same ratio as BNE to MH)

QBRanger October 23 2006 6:32 PM EDT

Jon,

That might be very true, however, the inate leech of the Bth or the MH outweights the increased damage the ELS or the Bone do. At least in my opinion and in most others who are fighting near the top.

At least in CB2, where one cannot be certain your VA will cast given the new DM spell.

Also, with the increased damage and changes to weapons, does it really matter if you do 1M hp or 700k hp a hit when your hitting for most of the time 2-4 times a round?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 23 2006 7:12 PM EDT

I can't wait to name my VB...

Brakke Bres [Ow man] October 23 2006 7:33 PM EDT

I do believe the BoNE and the ELS are the underdogs of this game.
If you check the highest upgrades on both of these weapons, you'll see that they won't even come near the highest morg in the game.
So everyone, again, is limited to one weapon in this game if they want there tank to be there main damage dealer.

The ELS and BoNE could need some love!!!
Why no make the elb and els so that they have a dex effect?
Should be consistent with the other elven items in the game.
And the BoNE some kind of decay effect? Poisoning (or something like that) the victim and draining a % of hp each round when attacking in melee? (similar to GA or AMF).
Then it would be very interesting.
Just my thoughts

Maelstrom October 23 2006 7:35 PM EDT

ELS and BoNE... what are those again? They're just some of those many items in the store that no one uses, right?

:P

AdminNightStrike October 23 2006 7:38 PM EDT

The benefit of the bone is that it's the highest base damage. If that's not enough to set it apart from other weapons with more esoteric types of bonuses, then the first consideration should be to increase that base damage further.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] October 23 2006 7:53 PM EDT

If people actually bothered upgrading them to the same level as the highest Morg then they would probably be able to see the point.
Why look at the highest one of each in the game when they aren't the same and then comment on it not being good enough?
I'm sure if one of the top Morg users changed to a BONE of the same level they would see a significant increase in damage, they obviously just prefer the drain effect.
Comparing ones of different sizes is back to the whole apples and oranges scenario.

QBRanger October 23 2006 10:20 PM EDT

When I was playing TAB, I used a MH. However, there were times I used a Bone of near similiar NW. The inate leech of the MH was just too great to overlook compared to the increased damage of the Bone. Both got the job done with plenty of damage to spare, but the MH let me live longer vs those mages and other tanks.

[P]Mitt October 24 2006 2:20 AM EDT

In my opinion, a +15% to DX and skills seems extreme, but possibly an increase in base damage? I know that it is purposely scaled to do the same ratio increase like the BoNE/Morg ratio, yet it is shown that ELS is much less popular because it:
1) Does not have VA
2) Does more than just a non-trivial amount of damage less than BoNE.

we can see discrepancies in strategies also that relate to this difference:
The heavy-hitter heavy-armor Tanks, which use BoNE for high damage or Morgs for still-high damage + VA. And although the same ratio from ELS:VB is the same, a base difference of 8 is wide enough to apply to this strategy in different variations.

In light-armor DX Tanks, VB and ELS would be recommended as they are 1 handed, yet there is the inherent disadvantage - light armor in order to deal multiple hits. The light armor makes VA necessary in one form or another as heavy tanks and mages deal heavy damage - it is necessary to be able to replenish this HP with VA. And with dispel magic, VA + ELS is much less effective, as "VA has reduced effect when its level is low relative to the damage done." While VA is built into the VB, leaving it unaffected by Dispel Magic.

Therefore I propose that the ELS should get a raise in base damage or that it should have some reducing effect on DM (or a protecting effect on BL or VA when cast).

Note that I am writing this at 11:19 PST, where I am already half asleep, so if my suggestions/analysis is absurd, please forgive me :)

UltimaSpock [Forge Frog Services] October 24 2006 4:22 AM EDT

if you raise the base damage of the ELS you will come close to a MH. So you will have to compare the leech effect of the MH with the 1 hand weapon advantage of the ELS.

So in fact i think the real problem lies in the 1 hand vs the 2 hands weapons drawback.

QBJohnnywas October 24 2006 4:41 AM EDT

I switched between a BoNE and a Morg, where the BoNE was actually quite a bit lower NW, for a while. The increase in damage when using the BoNE was significant, especially considering the lower NW, but I lost more battles because of the lack of VA.

For me it was a rare case of HP over damage.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 24 2006 5:59 AM EDT

OK, Who's using that Tulwar! ;)

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] October 24 2006 7:14 AM EDT

Mitt, last time I checked my VB didn't have any VA ;)
I do remember the BTh on CB1 having it though ;P

Godpanda October 24 2006 10:13 AM EDT

All I did was present some data so that the game could look for possible alternatives.

As Ranger said, that there is only one -real- choice of weapons in the top of game is the Morg is not right. I mean, of the 80 existing Morgs, I found 33 of them. I didn't check more then 100 characters.

So maybe a bonus to ELS is a bit extreme. But something should be done. The BoNE could also use a little love.

But, if you decide the BoNE is in need of a boost, then so too is a BoT. They are used to the same degree so...

[P]Mitt October 24 2006 12:45 PM EDT

Woah, my bad, VB doesn't have VA xD
/me thinks about BoTh....

But anyhow, the bonuses of VB are still quite good.

DH October 24 2006 7:51 PM EDT

I use ELS purely cause its cool. i could care less if it got nerfed or buffed...having an ELS used to be the cool thing to have. i may not beat your brains out but alteast i have fun stabbing you 45 times before dying to your mage.

[P]Mitt October 24 2006 11:59 PM EDT

I have no idea if this is correct, but IF VB reduces 40% of protection/AC/endurance on attack, it would out pass an ELS in damage output by 40% if they had the same base and vs a minion with a decent amount of AC.

IF the ELS does 6.25% more damage in comparison to a VB (1 - (75/80)), (80 to 75), then there is no comparison - the VB does a considerable amount more damage unless the opposing minion has negligible AC (use the damage reduced function on the armor optimizer on cbstuff.nl and compare AC vs. AC-40% and damage dealt to each)

I think there's something wrong with my math, but I can't find the hole unless it has to do with the increase in damage of the ELS vs VB bases. If there isn't, it shows how the ELS is being outclassed in damage by a weapon that has a lower base but stacked bonuses.

QBRanger October 25 2006 12:13 AM EDT

Mitt,

Read through the past posts about the VB. Novice and I have been stating that exact opinion numerous times in the past.

Yes the ELS does have more damage ability, but the VB cuts defenses by 40%. Since they are both 1 handed and neither has inate VB ability, the VB will likely do far more damage due its defense cutting then the ELS.

Vs 0 AC minions the ELS should do more, but those are typically mages or enchanters that you hit multiple time for high damage anyway. They usually die in 1 round anyway, independent if you put them at -1M or -500k hp. In fact, a rusty spoon on a TOA tank would likely do the job vs those minions.

[P]Mitt October 25 2006 12:29 AM EDT

Sory fex, I guess I glossed over your posts a little too fast :-\

and I'm using your script and I often forget to display older posts and they're auto hid.

But enough excuses, my point is, you guys are right, I should have read.

:)
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