CoC VS MM Tank VS Mage (in General)

Brakke Bres [Ow man] November 6 2006 6:01 AM EST

Im gonna a start a new character soon, and i was thinking about a MTEE team.
I have pretty much all the equipment i need, but im not sure what the role of my mage or tank will be.
One of the two damage dealers its role is to kill of enchanters as fast as possible. The other one is the "main" damage the guy that kills of the huge tanks/mages.
However im not sure which one, the tank or the mage, i want for main damage dealer.

Small stats, the tank is sporting pretty much all +str equipment (no ToA) and a SoD and (underdog) ELS
The mage will be sporting mage armor (CoI, ags, etc).

The first question to be solved, is what do i want my mage/tank to be?
The second question; what would the mage train? CoC or MM?

Any thoughts?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 6 2006 7:15 AM EST

Have the Tank kill low Dex/Eva targets.
Have the Mage kill High Dex/Eva targets.


Brakke Bres [Ow man] November 6 2006 7:20 AM EST

then what spell GL? CoC or MM?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 6 2006 8:51 AM EST

Really, you'ld want a front firing DD, so it could attack the same target as your Tank. If it's low Dex, the tank carves into it with multiple hits, if it's high and the tank can't hit, the DD blasts your oppoent away.

If you use MM, you cuod face a team with a Evaison minion in front, and a MgS minion in back, effectively stopping both your attacks.

If only there was a front first single target DD spell. ;)

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 6 2006 9:04 AM EST

I think the tattoo you have or want might decide this for you. If you use a ToE, then CoC. If you use say a steel familiar then MM.

I would use the mage as the main damage dealer. If you make the tank the main damage dealer, you pretty much have to go all out and support him totally with the other minions, and might even consider Decay for the mage.

One side note, a PL battery works great with a ToE.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] November 6 2006 11:34 AM EST

Im using a ToE so i need to aim for long battles? So CoC?
But isn't MM also very suited for long battles?

deifeln November 6 2006 11:38 AM EST

If you're using a ToE you should also have one of your Enchanter's train a base Decay for those non AMF users....

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 6 2006 12:22 PM EST

Well sure anything that does damage is good for long battles (besides FB). The reason I like CoC with ToE is you have a decent chance of actually casting CoC, that is surviving to melee. Why do I like CoC over MM in this case? Well MM is predictable, and that predictability can be used against you. CoC hits them all, deals even damage regardless of the order, and does more damage than MM. How is MM predictablity used against you? Well for me I put my damage dealer in front, and hide him with an AoI. Then I put my mage buster in back (TSA and MgS) and let the games begin. You have to kill the mage buster then two enchanters, before you get to my CoC damage dealer. All the while he is blasting away at every minion, regardless of order. So for me, quick kill is dual MM, long haul is ToE and CoC.

chuck1234 November 6 2006 4:04 PM EST

ok, so thanks to your indoctrination, and Dead in chat, i've lost MM and have a CoC mage with AoI in front on my new NCB char AuraElf. But, what does he do until melee begins? Just sit there? Coz there's no way i can put a ranged weapon on him with all the EC going around, and any St/DX additions on him is cutting into EXP going into training CoC. I've a Steel Familiar coz there needs to be some action [at least] in ranged, but maybe i'll get some ToE or LToE to test.

AdminNightStrike November 6 2006 6:21 PM EST

"Well sure anything that does damage is good for long battles (besides FB)."

So simple, yet so profound........

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 7 2006 9:42 AM EST

Chuck, if you are asking me what about ranged, I have nothing happening in my ranged combat. I use the ToE with a nice fat well thought out mage busting PL battery to make it less of a factor. Do I beat everyone? No I do not. The big archers hurt me just like they do everyone else. With AMF/ToE/PL and the TSA MgS assisted rear minion, I hold my own against FB and MM attacks. Use a combination of well thought out minion order and the aforementioned gear, spells, and skills to get to melee. Once there let them have it :)

QBRanger November 7 2006 12:59 PM EST

Just take a look at the top ranks. Not one useds CoC. There are a few that use MM, a couple that use FB, but not 1 uses CoC.

That is not a coincidence, as during the free unlearn I tried all 3 DD spells.

The fact you do not fire off a spell during missile rounds makes CoC a useless spell to me. Some may say a tank without a bow does the same, but a tank does far more damage to compensate and a tank can use AMF to start damaging mages and lower the DD spells effect.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 7 2006 1:45 PM EST

First off, I did as you suggested. Of the top 10 scores in the game right now, 3 use MM as the main damage dealer (Koyaanisqatsi, NWO, Oxcha) and one uses CoC (Tezmac)

You have to get to the twelfth best score before you see FB.

So do more use MM than CoC, yes this is true, but more use CoC than FB.

Not to say I plan to take my CoC team to the top. I do not. If you want to get to the top run a tank team. Yes the top spot is held by a mage team right now, but that team has 200K more MPR than any other team in the game, and comes in 5th for NW.

So am I saying that the ultimate strat is to run CoC + ToE, no I am not. I am saying it is a viable strat, and one you can and should consider.

This is my team:

Score / PR / MPR: 1,647,685 / 984,535 / 695,258
Net Worth: $31,729,076
Tattoo NW : $21,088,321
Gear NW : $10,640755

Is it the best you ever saw, no it is not. Is it shamefully bad, no it is not. Is my score to PR ratio as great as when I ran a tank team, no it is not, do I make a LOT more money with this team than my tank team, yes I do.

When asked what to run MM or CoC I asked what tat was to be used. If ToE I recommended CoC, if anything else I recommended MM. I still stick by my recommendation. We can disagree there, I have no trouble with that, but my recommendation is also based upon statistics and trial and error, just like yours.

QBRanger November 7 2006 1:59 PM EST

Well Tezmac is tank/mage team that does not rely only on the CoC mage to deal damage. But I overlooked him.

However, going to let's say top 20 scores you include Dixie Cousin's, Queen Bee and Hubbel. In the characters that only rely on DD spells not 1 only uses CoC.

The NW does not matter as Little Devil and Bast both use MM as an only damage spell. chosen over CoC.

Yes. I am sure TOE/CoC combo is very powerful but I have seen from personal experience MM to be far better. Let's not forget I was a CoC/TOE character until the free untraining.

Tezmac November 7 2006 2:05 PM EST

I definitely don't rely on my COC mage as my main damage dealer. However, some of you feel his fury a lot more than others. :O)

Brakke Bres [Ow man] November 7 2006 2:44 PM EST

So no CoC? Im better of using MM?
Then i should be training MM and HP and nothing else?

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 7 2006 2:56 PM EST

I do not like talking about the top 10 with say the top 20 because the rules are so VASTLY different between them. The top 10 can do many many things those below them cannot.

I would certainly put forth the the idea that Bast relies more on her Jig than anything, and that was another reason I stopped at 10, because I could not figure in what category she would fall.

Again, I certainly will not discount your experience or knowledge of strat, Ranger. You are entitled to your opinion, and it is a valid one. We just disagree that with a ToE, CoC is a better option than MM. I will say I do not think the teams that beat my strat with a comparable MPR or PR are MM based teams. My rear minion is specifically designed to stop them, as is my minion order and use of AoI. I do not think you can do the same thing to CoC, unless you protect all your minions from it, or go all out in ranged attacks. Even then, without dual ranged attacks, you cannot kill all my minions in ranged. With the ToE, the AMF, the PL and the AoI I rarely loose 3 minions in ranged unless facing a pure archery based team, and even then I do OK. I am thinking about slipping some evasion in there to further reduce my exposure to ranged weapon attacks.

In the end I was asked my opinion, and I gave it. It has not changed based upon our discussions here. You opinion is different than mine, and it is a valid one, but in and as such, does not invalidate mine.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 7 2006 3:53 PM EST

I will add to further my own point, of my own last 1000 battles, only Gun's character Briggs has beaten me with Magic Missile trained and we sometimes stalemate. I would also add Gun's Magic Missile appears a lot like Tezmac's CoC in that it is not his only form of attack, and he relies more heavily on his tank than his mage.

That and Rangers character, which is the biggest MPR and Score in the game, and it took him 5 rounds to kill my 4 minions with his dual Magic Missiles, which comes from 2mil MPR (to my 695K MPR) and his 208mil NW (to my 31mil NW).

Does it make me right, no, but it does say do not rush right out and change from my advice to Ranger's advice either.

QBRanger November 7 2006 4:15 PM EST

I am not saying my MM/TOE is the do all, be all of cb2.

However the reason I like MM over COC is the following:

While COC may give more damage in lets say 6 or 7 rounds compared to MM, the fact I am doing damage from round 1 matters quite a lot in battles.

Vs some people I manage to take down 2 to 3 minions before melee rounds even start. And vs a few characters I manage to take down a major damage dealer.

IE vs Hubbell. If I were to use COC, I would be subjected to his SF's damage for 4 rounds. With my MM, it is dead by round 2 saving me 2 round of damage from it. Does it change the overall battle, no. But it does cut down on healing costs, which over time add up to quite a lot of cb2.

Vs NWO the same thing happens. If I were to use CoC, I would be subjected to his SF for 4 rounds of high damage. But with MM, his SF is dead in either round 2 or round 3, saving me 1 or 2 rounds of high MM damage. And vs NWO, that certainly does change the battle outcome.
Also, not many characters have Mage Walls in the back.

Remember it is not only the overall damage you do, but the damage done to you. With the MM casting in round 1, you have a far greater chance of taking out some minions, quite possibly a damage dealing minion before melee starts, decreasing damage done to you, thereby letting you live longer and decrease you healing costs.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 7 2006 5:11 PM EST

Well I will admit, I was not factoring in healing costs when giving my thoughts on whether to use CoC or MM. I was looking purely at win vs. loss.

At one time I thought incorrectly that minion order made difference to damage dealt when using CoC. Once I learned that CoC applies the same damage to each minion regardless of minion order it became a more useful spell.

To me, I prefer strats that are the hardest to specifically defend and do better generally. Since CoC hits every minion and each minion takes the same damage (obviously it varies by many minion based factors, but "starts" out as the same damage) it does much better on multi minion teams than MM. I would think MM does much better the fewer minions you face. The trend does seem to be going (and rightfully so I think) to multi minion teams. I think when combined with a ToE and not counting heal cost as a factor, a CoC based team will do better over a wider variety of opponents than MM. You can plan a strat against a MM, you have to attack a CoC strat more generally, and I think that for me is what swings the balance to the CoC side. Once you choose any other tat besides the ToE, I would say MM all the way.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 7 2006 5:18 PM EST

MM is intended to deal with multi minion teams, CoC works better the fewer minions you have...this was at one point standard knowledge...

For me it comes down to the AMF and GA blowback, even a ToE boosted CoC make can expect 100-200k in blow back a round. When my AMF was pushing 1.6 mil effective, I'd see ranger with his ToE taking 300k damage back. MM is stronger verses almost all the popular setups, only the various walls even slow it down much.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 7 2006 5:53 PM EST

I have no idea where you come up with your "standard knowledge" in this case, but I cannot disagree with you more.

First off, since you do have to wait until melee, how fewer minions on your own team would help CoC is beyond me, but I am guessing that was a typo.

Secondly, If you had said the exact opposite, CoC is intended to deal with multi minion teams, MM works better the fewer minions [sic] they have, I would have agreed.

If they have one big minion and your MM is pounding on that one big minion from the start of round 1 ranged, I would think your chances of winning is greater. If they have 4 minions, and the person you want to kill is in the front slot, then you having to pound through 3 non-combatants, taking AMF, GA whatever all the way killing non-combatants, then your chances of winning is less. How this does not seem logical to me is quite the mystery.

If my CoC = your MM, how does AMF affect it differently?

Sure with GA since I do more damage, my GA returns should be higher as a result, but then again, you are getting GA returns from round 1, whereas my GA returns do not start until round 4, seems almost a wash to me, certainly IS a wash if the fight only lasts 7 rounds.

I realize it is not much of a fair fight considering I have 2X your MPR, but none of my minions dropped below 150K HP when I fought your team Novice.

I will say that without my rear end mage busting PL minion my fights would be a lot different, but he is there, I recommend him highly, again I think coupled with the ToE, CoC is a better DD choice than MM.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] November 8 2006 3:14 AM EST

Now im hearing 2 things, CoC works great if you have a certain strategy and MM works great with a certain strategy.

But which one will work the best in MTEE team??

Personally i was thinking CoC, going splash damage all the way, because of the SoD im using.

CoC vs MM, a never ending story.

Kong Ming November 8 2006 4:26 AM EST

If you are going 4 minion, I guess CoC unless you start off with fewer minions and hire the Es later.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] November 8 2006 4:40 AM EST

I will probably start of with 2 minions the Tank and Mage. I have an AoI, but at low pr's this would add to much PR.

Best thing for 2 minions is MM, but to retrain it later to CoC is costly.

UncleKracker November 8 2006 5:46 PM EST

How much damage does CoC // MM // FB do in comparison to their level?

Miandrital November 8 2006 5:48 PM EST

CoC - 95%
MM - 48%
FB - 65%

These are the absolute highest values, but at lower levels of all three, they do less damage. ATM, my 200k FB is around ~55%
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