The (or at least a) way to implement dual wield: (in General)


AdminShade November 6 2006 8:00 AM EST

A problem with a lot of newbies (and also veterans) is that they are over hyped about dual wielding 2 single hand weapons...
Many have tried to get them in the game but they always were overpowered since 2 ELS > 1 BoNE or MH.

Now my idea isn't so much enabling a dual wield possibility as such. My idea is to create a Dual Weapon item class instead!



It is possible to code that when a certain item type 'A' is being equipped, it renders item types 'X', 'Y' and 'Z' not able to be used. This makes a 'Double Weapon' not able to be used with any Shield or Power Shield type of items.

(example is equipping a Tattoo when having a Body Armor, Cloak and Power Shield equipped.)



Of course the Dual Weapons will have to compete with the current 1 handed and 2 handed weapons. I haven't been able to view the current PTH for 1 handed and 2 handed weapons but I will assume they are 50% and 75% (75% being 50% higher than 50%.)

Then having the Dual Weapon you of course want to have a double strike, right? Now how would this be possible for implementing?
If you would raise the PTH for the weapon, this would be very overpowered since almost no minion would be able to evade or dodge those attacks, even with a small X value you would still always do double the damage from a normal weapon.

I think this new Double Weapon class of items should have the ability to strike again _if_ the first strike hits. A better explanation would have to be visualized through an example:

Currently the Vorpal Blade has the ability to 'snicker/snack' and to reduce any and all protection on the attacked minion by 40%. A different effect would be to let the weapon do a 'second attack' in which this attacks the same minion again for another certain damage (calculated like the first strike).

If the weapon misses, the effect will not be 'triggered' and thus not executed.

What would the base PTH for the weapon be? I think that when having a weapon in each of your hands and facing somebody having 1 weapon and shield, that you could have some kind of advantage, or not?

If you'd have the advantage this would be in being able to still strike even if your first weapon was blocked by the shield or evaded.
If you'd have the disadvantage this would be in the fact that 2 weapons, mostly when big, are harder to properly use than 1.

The chance to hit then, imo, should be around that of the 2 handed weapons, or in between the 1 handed and 2 handed classes, to give it a decent 'downside' of being used.



Now for the damage, since this weapon always hits double if it hits (and in case of a double or triple hit it will hit 4 or 6 times instead (whoa...)) then the damage has to be roughly halved also to balance it. This would just result in making it an X46 weapon instead of an X92 weapon or something like that.

If you would put in a few variations of these weapons, say 3 examples:

Dual Hatchets: [30x1] (+0) Weapon strikes double on successful first hit.

This weapon is the smaller version of a Dual Weapon, because of it's lower base damage this could have a 0.1 effect of Vampiric Aura on it to cover for this loss of damage.
Prices for X and + upgrades could be in the range of the current Katana.



Dual Katanas: [35x1] (+0) Weapon strikes double on successful first hit.

This is the mid ranged version of the Dual Weapon, it has cheaper x and + upgrade prices than the Hatchets, more in line with the big 4.



Dual Elven Swords: [42x1] (+0) Weapon strikes double on successful first hit.

This is the highest damage doing Dual Weapon, also with the same upgrade prices as the Dual Katanas.


Please post your ideas, comments (both good and bad) here. I don't think Jonathan would be willing to implement them, but it can never hurt to think about new ideas ;)

Godpanda November 6 2006 8:10 AM EST

Would work beautifully with VA.

But my question is, if you boosted it to where a normal version would do 3 successful hits in one round, would the duals do 6?

AdminShade November 6 2006 8:21 AM EST

If you would have read it all, then my answer would already been given to you, but yes:

If you would strike and hit 1 time, you would hit 2 times.
If you would strike and hit 2 times, you would hit 4 times.
If you would strike and hit 3 times, you would hit 6 times.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] November 6 2006 8:34 AM EST

that would get very overpowered, very fast

AdminShade November 6 2006 8:45 AM EST

How would it get overpowered very fast Henk? Perhaps also tell why or how instead of just saying 'it would'...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 6 2006 8:48 AM EST

Shade, how is this better than having BL do x2 (instead of x1.6) damage?

If it is better than x1.6 Damage, and you could also use BL with it, why use any other normal weapon again?

Dead, it would have no impact on VA at all.

AdminShade November 6 2006 8:53 AM EST

How would it be any different than BL doing x1.6 damage on a BoNE?

without BL: BoNE does say 100,000 damage
without BL: Dual Weapon does say 48,000 damage and 47,000 damage, total 95000, a bit less than the BoNE.

with BL: BoNE does 160,000 damage
with BL: Dual Weapon does 76,800 damage and 75,200, total 152000, a bit less still than the BoNE.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 6 2006 9:59 AM EST

Then what's the point of Dual Weapons? You can't use a Shield with them, and a 2 Hander outperforms them.

Kong Ming November 6 2006 10:04 AM EST

So that you can use both a BoTH and a ELS together?

Godpanda November 6 2006 10:22 AM EST

Gl yeah it would. You could train it lower to still get maximum drainage. Instead of doing 100k a blow and having to train VA to that, it does 2 bursts of 50k and you only have to train VA to 50k and you still get the same leech.

Oh, sorry Shade, I read it quickly this morning. I see it now.

I like the idea. How would it interact with shields? Bows? What kind of armor would restrict this? Would a skill be made to to interact with this?

Really, I like this concept. It makes VA more useful, DX much more important, GA more powerful in general (cheaper to get max damage on these minions)

However, the damage these things will be doing (even after double hit) will be tiny. Those numbers will have to be boosted I think. I don't think doubling the base number equals double power. Not sure though.

AdminShade November 6 2006 10:51 AM EST

Kong Ming: no you can't use that, because Dual Weapons are bought as 1 item, not 2.

GL: then their damage would be a bit higher than their 2 handed equivalent of course so that people will actually use them.

Say [50x1] (+0) for the Dual Elven Swords, X48 and X40 for the other Dual Weapons.


Dead: How it would interact with Shields? Not, they won't equip with any shield of course.
Bows, just used normally in ranged rounds of course :)
It won't make VA more useful since it does roughly the same damage of course. Though it will make DX more needed indeed.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 6 2006 10:58 AM EST

GL: then their damage would be a bit higher than their 2 handed equivalent of course so that people will actually use them.

;)

Now we're getting ot the problem.

If they do more damage than a normal 1/2H weapon, why use the normal wepaons?

Everyone will go DW.

The lack of a Shield might be a large enough penalty, but I doubt it.

Godpanda November 6 2006 10:59 AM EST

lol first of all, making VA more useful is a GOOD thing. And using dual weapons WOULD make VA more useful.


You get the same amount of HP, indeed, but for LESS exp.

Because instead of doing 100k damage with a VB, you do two hits of 50k each. This means that your VA would only have to be trained to 50k instead of 100k to get the same amount of hp. However, does make it vulnerable to GA, but still good.

Have you considered making first swing 1 handed and second one 2 handed?

and Skill?

Slashundhack [We Forge Our Own Stuff] November 6 2006 11:08 AM EST

One of the advantages for dual weapons is you can block a blow with one and strike with the other at or near the same time but they need a more skilled user. Could that be reflected?The whole thing sounds like a lot of work for jon for little return if he does that we should buy the T- shirt ha!

AdminShade November 6 2006 2:26 PM EST

Slashundhack, that will not be used for CB...

So GL, is that the only problem for the Dual Wield, that it either is overpowered or underpowered?

BoNE has highest damage, though is used less than a MH in the top regions... why? because of MH's abilities.

If the Dual Weapons are popular, they will be used...

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] November 6 2006 2:47 PM EST

I'd add that it would have to require a skill to be effective, in that depending on the level in relation to one of the intrinsics it has a certain chance of getting that second hit, kind of like archery.
The main reason I say this is mostly to prevent it being used with BL, so if you get the second hit it would be slightly more powerful than any of the other weapons but you need the extra stat to be successful.

AdminShade November 6 2006 3:15 PM EST

So then you would have to use a special dual wield skill instead? that makes the entire weapon class obsolete since it would be the same as doing more damage similar to BL

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 6 2006 3:16 PM EST

The Morg as you said has it's own ability. What ability does dual wield have that other weapons don't?

If it's just damage, then it's gonna be over or underpowered. :(

AdminShade November 6 2006 3:22 PM EST

Then nevermind me even trying...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 6 2006 3:26 PM EST

Come on Shade! Don't give up. ;) Having them as weapons (Like Darth Maul's double Light Sabre) is better than having a DW skill.

Just what niche are they to fill though? Why should someone use one over a Morg or BoNE?

How about the can't use shield restriction, but give them a greater natural Dex Based CTH (or PTH however it's actually worked out...) than one handed weapons?

Make them initially easier to land double hits, but at a price.

Maybe even let them be the only type of weapons that give Dex based Triple hits...

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] November 6 2006 3:36 PM EST

No Shade, I'm saying that the skill would be needed to give the dual weapon it's greatest effect, just like with bows, they used to be reasonable without archery but the skill gave them an edge over the others by giving them that extra round (and additional damage before it was changed).
The weapons would still be there and be pretty good alone but to make full use of their ability you would need to train the skill but I'm not the overly imaginative type to think up how the skill would affect it.
Maybe if it was used with GL's last idea and have a full effect DW skill grant up to a 30% chance of a third dex-based hit or something more reasonable if I'm on a bad guideline :)

AdminShade November 6 2006 3:46 PM EST

Indeed, that would be something worth of having the choice...

If you'd give them a higher PTH but a bit lower damage, then that would make them used more still, not? They would do more hits and thus do more damage.

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] November 6 2006 4:00 PM EST

Well how about making them do something unique then? Say cutting down a trained skill by x% per x or + per hit. So 2h weapons are good for damage, 1h are a balance, and DW are weaker but have the ability to nix evasion, UC, BL or PL.

For this weapon class to be viable it has to do something the other 2 can't already do, whatever that may be.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 6 2006 4:47 PM EST

I got it! :D

They reduce the Evasion of your oppoent, as it's harder to dodge them! ;)

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] November 6 2006 5:01 PM EST

i think it should be two seperate items for dual weild, so you have to obtain both weapons and forge or BS both of them to get them where you want. And worthless with only one since it will be similar to a tulwar with only one, =P
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