What about a new DD. (in General)


Drama [Just for fun] November 6 2006 9:46 AM EST

I thought of a healing spell and I would consider it as a DD. Let me explain my idea : the spell would hit up to 4 minion, so the more minion, the more spreading heal( and it would not heal the familiar).
the magic would start at melee rounds. fighting a team with AMF would reduce the amount of hp gained and take a % of it to heal your first minion.
the TSA and MS user would reduce the amount of hp healed.
GA user would it a % damage back to the white mage.
well that's all I've had to say, tell me what you think, if you would change some of my idea or you think it sounds good.

(maybe my syntax is bad, sorry about it.:D)

AdminShade November 6 2006 9:50 AM EST

Isn't AS a healing spell already?

I think it wouldn't add something extra over the use of Ablative Shield to make it worthwhile...

Drama [Just for fun] November 6 2006 9:59 AM EST

''Isn't AS a healing spell already?''

Not really, AS does increase you hp before the fight, but does not heal hp while the fight, and no one train's hp and AS on same minion, but you could do this with the DD I'm talking about, you could even train my spell with AS.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 6 2006 11:02 AM EST

Q: CB needs a healing spell!

A: This adds nothing to the game that simply training HP (or AS, or protection, or endurance...) doesn't.

From the FAQ.

Adding HP is adding HP. Whether it's before the fight or during.

During the fight, it's got the possiblilty to add less than it would before the fight, making it worthless to train instead of AS.

Godpanda November 6 2006 11:03 AM EST

Darn you GL! I had the C+p all ready and everything!

Not to shatter your enthusiasm, but if its in the FORS (frequently offered retarded question) I just don't see it happening.

Personally though, I do think its cool and would make for some interesting combos with PL and healing and etc.etc.

Drama [Just for fun] November 6 2006 11:14 AM EST

"A: This adds nothing to the game that simply training HP (or AS, or protection, or endurance...) doesn't."

This answer is false, cause you could combinate AS and a healing spell
so it would add something to the game. New combination strategy.

Godpanda November 6 2006 11:18 AM EST

Wow, saying Jon is wrong hehe. Fight the power!

But, I doubt you could heal AS recieved. If there was healing it probably would only be able to heal normal HP.

Mages are the only minion who need healing (tanks have VA) and, as Jon said, there no real point.

Simply put, why? I'm not saying your wrong, but you need a why lol. Right now seems you just want it added because you want it to be added. (a problem I have had, dirty hypocrite that I am).

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] November 6 2006 11:19 AM EST

Belle, that answer is Jon's response so for this game it is correct and not false.
Va is technically a healing spell, so are all the forms of damage reduction and Hp increase pre-fight, they may all have ways of being different to an actual healing spell but together they all make the implementation of it pointless.
Options are good but too many options similar to each other are not.

Slashundhack [We Forge Our Own Stuff] November 6 2006 11:22 AM EST

I think the limited rounds of combat makes the healing spell a "stupid suggestion".What? the game doesn't have enough different flavours as it is??

Drama [Just for fun] November 6 2006 11:32 AM EST

so we should erase all the skill and ED and EO and only stay with hp str dex and weapon cause all the rest is to much similar... why use magic spells when you can train str and dex and do same damage. I think this is non-sense cause all the spells in CB a similar but its the combo you do that change something.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] November 6 2006 11:51 AM EST

But having a spell which is like another spell is silly.
There needs to be the chance to have a tank, mage or enchanter but why make another enchanter spell which is similar to one already there? It is like me asking for another intrinsic stat called 'Might' which works exactly the same as Str does.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 6 2006 11:55 AM EST

Bellee, consider this. You have an AS that gives 100K HP at the start of a battle.

For an equal amount of XP, how much would your Heal heal? If it's 100K, the only way to get this on your AS minion would be to train both to 50K each.

If it's more than 100K, it's better than AS, so why use AS? If it's less, it's worse.

How would AMF efect the Heal?

Who get's healed? The most damaged? All minions?

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 6 2006 12:11 PM EST

A couple of thoughts:

I hate pat answers. That is, answers which are assumed to be true, simply because they were true in the past. Regurgitating them and then sitting back and saying see I told you I was right. If you do not like an idea, say why you do not like an idea. C and P from FORS falls directly in my definition of a pat answer. This is just me, everyone else on the planet may LOVE pat answers, I do not. I think they are thoughtless and cowardly.

AS is NOT a healing spell. AS does grant additional HP. I cannot fathom how anyone could argue that adding HP and healing HP are the same, but have at it if you wish.

Adding HP is adding HP, whether it is before or during a fight. If this is true, the VA is worthless right? I mean, just train AS instead of VA, same effect right? Obviously not.

First off to flesh it out. It is a DD spell. The "healing" power adds a perecentage of the HP the minion had pre-fight. This percentage is modified by the effect AMF would have on the casting. If the AMF is strong enough, you could instead damage your own minions vs. healing them (a negative percentage gain). The effect is greater when cast on a single minion, than when cast on multiple minions. The casting will not effect the caster (the caster does not heal themselves) Once a minion is dead, it cannot be healed.

A couple of point Belle mentioned I liked. If your minions have MgS or TSA equipped, then this spell effects them less. If you have GA trained, then the caster would get damaged from your own GA.

So why do I like it? Well a couple of reasons. First off, ALL of the current "healing" ideas (besides training HP) are effected by DM, this would be effected by AMF. VA only works on tanks, this would be the VA equivalent for mages. Once the healing caster is dead, no more healing. None of that crummy VA resurrection.

So why add it. Well, I disagree with the premise pre-fight HP is the same as healing during the combat. I think this would add a new dimension to mage teams.

OK, as usually I am too long, so I will stop there. I think it is a good idea, I like the DD based approach. I like the downsides of it, and I think it would be used on a lot of mage teams. I think with PL and Walls it would be very useful, but if you go at it half heartiedly it would have negative impact (like say decay) and if you rely on GA, it would really hurt you.

P.S. I think the FORS entry for healing was made in CB1 and has never been modified. If you think that this is the same game as CB1 you are fooling yourself, and if you think that just because it would not work in CB1 that it would not work in CB2, you are playing a different game from me.

Mem November 6 2006 1:48 PM EST

I like this idea as well, although I have a suggestion. If AMF is strong enough it shouldn't damage your own minions, but instead heal your opposing minions. That's some great incentive to not go at it half-heartedly.

I would also like to clarify the fact that AS increases the maximum ceiling your HP is ever going to get to. Any healing spell I've ever encountered has had no effect whatsoever on the max ceiling of your HP. It can bring you up to your pre-established max ceiling, but it can't bring you any further than that. That's a huge difference between Belle's suggestion and AS, in my mind.

I'd also like to suggest that this spell can only fire once every five rounds or so. Any more would be overkill, although less may be a viable option.

Nice idea, Belle!

Drama [Just for fun] November 6 2006 4:31 PM EST

I would like it if Jon could see this new approach of healing spell :) Thanks to those who understood what I meant.

Shooto November 6 2006 4:36 PM EST

So what kind of character would you train this on? Wouldn't putting it on an enchanter be pointless because they are usually the meat shields put at the ends of the group to take the first damage? Since it would be DD, it wouldn't work with a mage. Also, wouldn't this lead to a lot more stalemates? I think the idea of a healing spell is a bad one. I'd rather see some sort of elemental damage such as a lightning bolt spell or something along those lines over a healing spell.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] November 6 2006 4:51 PM EST

One big drawback from a spell like this is it has the potential to make teams practically invincible. With teams that have 400 ac, prot, toe, etc, how high would they have to be before the healing spell can adequately deal with damage dealt every round. They dont even have to make up for all of the damage, just enough to extend their lives long enough to kill you.

Mem November 6 2006 5:07 PM EST

That's why you have to make AMF very powerful against it, Pit. If the team you're facing has a huge AMF and you cast heal then you'd be healing the other team. You'd definitely have to invest heavily in this spell for it to be worth it, but if that wasn't the case then we would have the "invincible" teams showing up. Same as any other spell, etc.

As far as who would train it-- a support mage. Of course the spell would have to be a team effect, possibly even only healing the minions aside from the caster. If it wasn't it'd be utterly useless and not even worth talking about... at least as a DD spell.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] November 6 2006 5:13 PM EST

It could be like in Fly For Fun.

They have a buff called "Beef Up" which raises the HP cap (for a period of time linear to the level of Intelligence trained) compared to the level of "Beef Up" being trained. Then on top of that you can heal throughout the fight, but you do the fighting all the way through, not just one click and your done, so you have to know when to heal, in CB you cannot, so i dont think it would really be fair to implement this in. Especially as it would be the downfall to one minion teams, for sure. One minion cannot train heal and other skills to be succesfull. But whats really not fair, when does healing stop? Just heal forever until stalemate so nobody will ever win?

Drama [Just for fun] November 6 2006 6:04 PM EST

"But whats really not fair, when does healing stop? Just heal forever until stalemate so nobody will ever win?"

As I know, you can't train a skill if you never win a battle. And how could it be stronger than any other skill or magic or enchant in the game. They are already lots of thing that can counter it : AMF, GA, seeker arrow, TSA, MgS and thing that would boost it like CoI, AG.
And like I said, the healer would only start to heal at melee rounds and Sefton said that the healer could not heal himself and when the healer or other minion dies, there is no more heal. It's all fair to me and the only thing to do next is to balance the effect with amount of exp trained and make this spell work in the game.
It's like if you where scared of changes.
(and tell me one RPG with out a healing spell.)

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] November 6 2006 6:18 PM EST

and in any one of those games which one do you not control the whole entire fight, to be able to control when heal is used?

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] November 6 2006 6:24 PM EST

Wouldn't this protect tanks in a way? By making an enchanter heal the damage dealer every round, you draw attention to this enchanter, because you want to stop the hp income, and this could give the aforementioned tank a round or two of life right?..Now, do tanks need this extra protection? Maybe, maybe not, but it sure would bring new strategy elements...

Though it is certain that it would have to last a set amount of rounds (maybe make the number of rounds linked to amount of hp healed or the enchanter's max hp, number of minions...), as to avoid auto-stalemates, as stated above.

Anyway, i'm no expert strategist, just trying to contribute to the discussion, hope I make sense :)

Flamey November 7 2006 3:50 AM EST

well, a Tank, with bonus gears, with a MH, with VA, with the healing spell and with a RoS-boosted enchanter, say on a 3 minion team, does "unfair" ring a bell? it'd be a bit too powerful.

Mem November 7 2006 5:30 AM EST

To think that this spell could be used in every round is just silly. The only way it'd work is if it was only possible to be cast in certain rounds-- say round 3, 6, 11, 18, and 22. Five chances to heal isn't too much, but still adds a decent amount to a strategy.

And enough with the overpowered mularkey! There are plenty of things in this game that are actually overpowered. Go complain about those things. The whole idea of this discussion is to find that middle ground where the spell in question (which I move to call "Athelas", after the healing plant of Middle Earth) can have a viable place in the game.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 7 2006 5:52 AM EST

Just a few questions Mem. :)

How would you balance it versus AS?

Would it have to cast up to round 22 to give back the same amount of HP and equal level AS gives?

Or because of the risk factor, only up to round 11?

Where DM can reduce what AS casts at, that can be countered by a RoS.

AMF would be able to lower the effictiveness of the Heal Spell with no counter. Should it therefore heal more than AS because of this as well?

Is it a single target spell, or for your whole team? If it's single target, who does it target? Front minion, or the one who has taken the most damage?

How would this interact with PL?

When in a round does it heal, as all attacks are simultanious? It would be pointless to heal *before* an attack has landed.



QBJohnnywas November 7 2006 6:25 AM EST

I think the only minion that really needs some kind of 'healing spell' is a mage.

I had a thought a while back when amulets were introduced for an amulet to do something along those lines. I'll just call it an Amulet of Healing for the moment. The AoH would be a mage only item.

What it would do would be to take it's power from AMF backlash. So, if a mage had a large DD spell the AMF backlash would obviously be quite big. The AoH would channel some of that backlash and convert it back into HP. Percentage based off the +, in the same way that other Amulets work. But maybe taking it up to 20% conversion to mirror the inbuilt VA of a Morg.

Tanks don't need healing spells and I'm not sure enchanters really need them. But mages do, especially single mages....

Mem November 7 2006 6:26 AM EST

How would you balance it versus AS?

I think the only thing that should be done as far as using this spell in accordance with AS is that the original HP ceiling should hold true to the spell, with the AS HP being just extra HP.

Would it have to cast up to round 22 to give back the same amount of HP and equal level AS gives?

I would imagine that would depend on how much you train on it. It seems to me that a scale of 0.01 to 1.0 would be a good way to go, with 1.0 being only attainable when you train at least three times of your HP (which would mean that the numbers would be different for each minion that was healed, unless you took the mean value which would definitely be open to abuse, or you could just go with three times that of the highest HP minion on your team).

Or because of the risk factor, only up to round 11?

I believe that last one should answer this question... but just in case-- The amount healed is completely independent of the rounds that the spell should fire in.

Where DM can reduce what AS casts at, that can be countered by a RoS.

AMF would be able to lower the effectiveness of the Heal Spell with no counter. Should it therefore heal more than AS because of this as well?

That's a good question. Rethinking this I've come to the conclusion that AMF should not reduce the amount of health given, but instead "steal" a proportionate amount of what was to be healed.

Is it a single target spell, or for your whole team? If it's single target, who does it target? Front minion, or the one who has taken the most damage?

The spell should be a team effect, excepting the caster and those minions that are unconscious already. Were it to be a single target spell I don't think such drastic counters would have to be taken.

How would this interact with PL?

Another excellent question. I think that in the interest of fairness PL should not affect which minions are healed, save in the instance that AMF steals some of that HP for the opposing team. The PL minion on that opposing team would then take a larger portion of that HP than his cohorts.

When in a round does it heal, as all attacks are simultaneous? It would be pointless to heal *before* an attack has landed.

Actually, that's one of the reasons I chose to start in round 3. I don't see changing the order of operations around here just for one spell, so firing in round 3, 6, 11, 18, and 22 gives you ample time to accumulate damage on your minions.

And to elaborate on AMF HP stealing, HP stolen should be pooled evenly among minions on the opposing team. So for instance, the casting team has four minions and casts 10,000 HP regained on three minions (since the casters cannot cast on themselves), giving a total of 30,000 HP regained. The opposing team has two minions and cast their AMF at .5 on the "white mage", meaning that 50% of the HP that would have been regained has been stolen. In effect the opposing team would get 7,500 HP per minion, and the casting team would gain back 5,000 HP per the three non-casting minions.

It is getting awfully complex, but I think it could work if Jon (or someone) is willing to write the code for it. I'm convinced that it would be a very nice addition to overall gameplay and diversity of strategies... although I sense that we'd need to at least extend rounds to 30 so as not to get an overabundance of stalemates.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 7 2006 6:45 AM EST

:D Thanks Mem! That and orienteering are my only natural powers. ;)

"would imagine that would depend on how much you train on it. It seems to me that a scale of 0.01 to 1.0 would be a good way to go, with 1.0 being only attainable when you train at least three times of your HP (which would mean that the numbers would be different for each minion that was healed, unless you took the mean value which would definitely be open to abuse, or you could just go with three times that of the highest HP minion on your team)."

Like a skill then (Or you could say Decay... But that has a fixed effect). How much does it heal for? If it heals for it's effect, you can't really have the 0.1 - 1.0 scaling. Or is it a percentage of the targets health healed (Like 20% at 1.0 effect)?

"How would this interact with PL?

Another excellent question. I think that in the interest of fairness PL should not affect which minions are healed, save in the instance that AMF steals some of that HP for the opposing team. The PL minion on that opposing team would then take a larger portion of that HP than his cohorts."

As you can't heal the caster with this spell, it screams to train PL on the Heal caster.

They take damage, this is absorbed by another minion, the Healer heals the damage taken.

I'm not sure I like that.

"Actually, that's one of the reasons I chose to start in round 3. I don't see changing the order of operations around here just for one spell, so firing in round 3, 6, 11, 18, and 22 gives you ample time to accumulate damage on your minions."

This is where the VA rez comes from though. Imagine you take enough damage from FB in rounds 4, 5 and 6 to kill all but your Heal Caster in the sixth round.
When Heal is cast in the same round, does it heal those people from comatose?

Drama [Just for fun] November 7 2006 8:04 AM EST

Where DM can reduce what AS casts at, that can be countered by a RoS.

AMF would be able to lower the effectiveness of the Heal Spell with no counter. Should it therefore heal more than AS because of this as well?


RoS do counter the DM, and so does the ToE for the AMF, and you could use a CoI or a AG to boost you spell effectivness.

About how would this interact with PL? the only way to be sure is to experience it, make some tests.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] November 7 2006 8:16 AM EST

ToE counters AMF damage backlash in that it reduces the damage taken as that is what endurance does.
How would a ToE be able to combat the AMF backlash effect on a healing spell if we use the examples given?
Using Mem's thought, if the backlash gave them some HP, how could the ToE possibly have an effect on this?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 7 2006 8:32 AM EST

My point was more off;

You have 100K AS. You face a 40K DM, leaving you with 60K AS. A larger enough RoS can stop that.

Versus;

You have 100K Heal. You face 40K AMF leaving you with 60K Heal. There is nothing you can do to stop that.

Drama [Just for fun] November 7 2006 9:10 AM EST

Zoglog:

instead of resisting the amount of damage backslash, it resist the amount of hp stolen.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 7 2006 9:25 AM EST

I sometimes worry because of my hectic schedule if I should get involved with posts like this, because I do not have the time to devote to it, like it deserves.

First off, the way you keep it from being overpowered is to stop thinking about it as 100K healing this, 60K healing that, and as I said in my original post, make it a percentage of pre-fight HP. If 100% is too much then make 50% or 25% or 10% the most percentage that is possible to achieve. A very easy limiting factor. You just have to simply make the downside have the same limit.

Secondly, how do you counter a big AMF when you cast fireball or decay, you do it by training more of the DD spell. Sure a ToE can reduce the "backlash" and I cannot see why this would operate any differently. Why make it more complicated. If the ToE would reduce X amount of AMF backlash damage from casting a Y sized Fireball, then the ToE would reduce X amount of negative HP you would lose when faced with Y amount of AMF.

Thirdly, if you want to stop the other guy from healing KILL the healer, make the spell NOT affect the caster, and POOF, problem solved.

Fourth, of course this would protect tanks. It would protect everyone but the caster.

How do you balance Fireball with AS? Not sure of the relevance.

I say it would cast EVERY round, just cap the maximum possible of returned percentage of HP. If 50% every round until the caster is dead is too much, then make it 25%. considering that Rangers tank has HP: 855,197 and if you DM'd his NON RoS protected AS to 0, then giving him back 25% of his HP up to his max HP a round, well I bet his opponents deal more than 25% damage a round with the aforementioned overpowered VB.

It targets the whole team, minus the caster with a reduction in applied affect for every minion greater than 1, just like GS, Haste, and AS, OR the spread damage from a FB for that matter.

It would interact with the combat just like any other DD spell. When it was the casters turn to go, based upon the minions order, he would cast the spell and instead of causing damage, he would heal damage. If the minion is alread dead, no healing.

All attacks are not simultaneous and you know it GL. Attacks are done based upon minion order, and this is no different.

Why make this so complicated, is Fireball so complicated? Its simple. You stop the overpowering by limiting the max possible percentage that can be returned to any one minion. When your minion takes AMF damage from his own Decay do we need massive forumulas and questions about how it interacts with PL and AS? No, thats why I latched onto the idea, its a DD spell. When your Decay gets AMF'd at .99 are there calls to how does it interact with ToE's or any other thing in the game, no. When a new person asks in New Players why his Decay is hurting his own minion and how to stop it, what do you say? You probably say untrain it, OR you say train more into Decay. This is the same.

Keep this simple. When someone says how does it interact with AS or PL or the phases of the moon, you say, just like Fireball. That in my opinion is the beauty of the idea, it mirrors virtually every other DD spell out there in how it works in the game, BUT instead of damaging the opponent, it heals your minions. Nice, easy, simple.

I have no illusions that this idea will be adopted. The slab of acid etched high grade titanium steel that is the Ten Com...I mean the FORS list is virtually impossible to change. Sure it gets added too, but to remove something from it, well I realize this would be akin to the earth deciding to spin on its axis in the opposite direction. Regardless I like the idea, and I think most of the opposition against it so far, has been just that, opposition for the sake of opposing. The only real issue is overpowering and what percentage would be the max cap returned HP.

Drama [Just for fun] November 7 2006 9:43 AM EST

Wow!
that's what I call a freaking good talking there Sefton. :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 7 2006 9:54 AM EST

"Thirdly, if you want to stop the other guy from healing KILL the healer, make the spell NOT affect the caster, and POOF, problem solved."

This is my Fear.

PL minion + AoI
Heal Minion + AoI (Plus Evasion)
400 AC Wall.

Wall get's hit. PL abosrbs 10% less damage. Canno't be killed by Absorbed damage.
Healer heals PL minion.

Not only do you get PL's ability to pass AC from one minion on to another, but you can concentrate you healing power to allways heal the smallest amount of damage inflicted.

The only wat to attack the healer for three round with Seekers. Which Evaison is now doing a terrific job of stopping.

Then come Melee, you can not damage the healer (Unless you use FB or CoC, which will be reduced by the minion spread anyway) until both the Wall and PL minion (who in essence has more AC than the Wall, until the wall dies) are dead.

FB and CoC would be the only choice to try to win.

Drama [Just for fun] November 7 2006 10:00 AM EST

Training too much ability on the mage would get a poor heal and would not be good.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 7 2006 10:03 AM EST

Doesn't need to be.

400AC reduces damage by about 84%, PL by another 10% for a total of 85.6% reduction on average.

You only need enough healing power to top that up.

But. If something like this is implemented, I think it would be made not to work on PL minions, like VA doesn't.

That being said, PL is the 'heal' spell (All be it a skill). Designed to heal a minion, without adding extra HP into a battle.

Drama [Just for fun] November 7 2006 10:44 AM EST

PL: "Allows Minion to absorb damage dealt to a companion at reduced rate; interferes with life-drain attacks"

As I know, healing is not a damage dealt to a companion...
And before saying it's too strong, you must do test. If you were always complaining about any new things in CB saying it's overpowered, CB would not even exist at this point.
And it's not like this idea was a non-thinking idea.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 7 2006 10:52 AM EST

Gee whiz GL, first off in your example that team does NO damage, so I assume you meant to pair it with a tank or a mage. Secondly, how many people in all of CB have 400 AC walls? I believe its countable on one hand. Thirdly, how are you going to beat that team without healing? Why not GA. Why not AMF. I mean come on, it is one thing to say, hey this is overpowered like say a CoBF was, its another to say, when someone invests $500 USD on their team, now this spell is overpowered. Guess what, EVERYTHING in CB is overpowered when someone can dump hundreds of dollars in their team. Archery is overpowered if I am in the top 10 and have a 200mil NW bow. Bloodlust is overpowered when I am in the top 10 and have a 200mil NW Morg. So because someone can dump hundreds of dollars in their team and make those skills overpowered they should be removed. It is the same logic you are applying here.

And using the same logic as all this how is this countered junk, how do you BTW counter PL? DM, no wait, AMF, no wait, EC, no wait, you don't.

So now you say yah, in that team I add a tank, so the order is what tank with AoI enchanter with AoI Enchanter with AoI wall. Well guess what, if they do not have AMF, you use Decay. If they do have AMF then you make a bigger Decay. I mean that team you just built out of thin air is as tough of a team to beat as any in the whole game. Now the tank adds VA with his 200 mil NW Morg. Poof, no need to worry about healing the VA gives him MORE HP than he started with, and the same Doomsday scenario applies, so lets get rid of VA, because the VA returns a greater amount of HP than the damage you can deliver filtering 85% of the damage the wall takes into a big PL battery.

If you face that team you built and your only fear is some healing, you are missing the forest because there are so many trees in the way.

Last but not least by ANY means, you get a big enough AMF to go against this "healing" spell and now the healed minions are ALL taking damage instead of healing, and this is not getting PL'd and since it is a DD spell, at least 90 AC of that 400 AC is ignored. So fear removed.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 7 2006 10:59 AM EST

OK Sef, Drop the AC down to 200. ;) Easily got. Or just compare AC value to an equally geared team.

It's the process that is the problem, you know I just like highlighting things with exptreme examples. ;)

PL and a High AC wall is bad enough. Allowing your expensive and stat limiting heavy armour to be used by another minion with no penaly, and an increased amount of reduction, just because you use PL and/or an AoI.

That's hard enough to damage through. Even with Decay or a VB.

Now add to that a DD that heals the little that get's through and you really have a self sustaining near unstopable team.

Add a ToE and Protection for more fun.

Does CB really need to get more defensive?

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 7 2006 11:21 AM EST

So you use GA or a big enough AMF to get over the healing spell. This is a tank team, and if they spend a lot of exp on a healing spell, then they wont be spending a lot on VA or on PL. If it is a mage team, then your AMF does double duty, hurting the mage and the healing minion. I mean they cannot have five cakes and eat them too. Is there a team that could be created to best leverage the healing spell, heck yes! Is there no way to counter it, heck no, a big enough GA to do damage slipping past PL, a big enough AMF to cause the healing minion to hurt the team instead of helping it. So now if the team has AMF and DM and a RoS sure they cover GA and Decay, but now the tank is non-ToA, you EC the heck out of them. Rock, paper, scissors.

Does CB need to be more defensive. If you run a pure mage team, yes it does. If you run 3 AoI protected minions with a big AC wall and a PL battery, maybe not. But to say the team would then be unbeatable is absurd.

QBOddBird November 7 2006 11:46 AM EST

The problem here is there are 25 rounds to fight in. I know for most of you with your gigantic tanks and mages feel that that's no big deal, but for say my team and its Evading/chipping away at the opponent's HP, that's stalemate city.

Which is another point - it would cause more stalemates. IMO, a stalemate is still worse than a loss.

Drama [Just for fun] November 7 2006 11:53 AM EST

And how would it makes more stalemate?
does VA or AS makes more stalemate?
It's like if you are thinking that the healer would heal 10 million hp per round.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 7 2006 11:57 AM EST

I'd go with a Tank. Maybe even using a IF as well! ;) But the Tank could use a Morg. That plus all team 'Heal' would offset anything done by GA.

Tank + Morg + AoI
PL + AoI + IF
Heal + Evasion + AoI
Heavy AC Wall

;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 7 2006 12:00 PM EST

"Does CB need to be more defensive. If you run a pure mage team, yes it does. If you run 3 AoI protected minions with a big AC wall and a PL battery, maybe not. But to say the team would then be unbeatable is absurd."

Single Mage. You're giving up survivability for pure PEW PEW power. Giving single mages even more survivability is silly. ;)

Unbeatable is too strong. How about mostly unbeatable? Or Unbeatable to anyone who hasn't spent 500+ USD? >;)

QBOddBird November 7 2006 12:05 PM EST

"And how would it makes more stalemate?
does VA or AS makes more stalemate?
It's like if you are thinking that the healer would heal 10 million hp per round."

Because you only have so many rounds to kill someone.

Yes VA and AS make more stalemates, but there's DM to counteract that as well.

And he doesn't have to heal 10M HP per round, but if he heals 200k per round, he's outdoing my main damage dealer for one, and several others.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 7 2006 12:06 PM EST

Another question.

If this Heal DD was added, bar single minions (and again, do we need more weighting towards multi minion teams?), what team isn't going to use a healer?

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 7 2006 12:24 PM EST

OK I am not sure why we need CB2 101 in the middle of this post, but I will do my best to educate.

Yes a stalemate is worse than a loss, so do not fight someone you stalemate.

OK so I trained a ton into AMF, now your team's healer costs your team HP instead of heals it GL, now what do you do?

As I have said twice and will now say for the third time, the heal spell does not heal the caster. AND if you are a single mage, and you train your DD spell as heal, how are you doing damage? You are going to train MM and FB on the same minion? Show me that trick please.

Apparently this simple concept gets lost in the noise. THIS IS A DD SPELL IT IS COUNTERACTED BY AMF LIKE ALL DD SPELLS.

OK GL, how much DD spell have you trained on your tank team? My bet is none to very little, and why is that you ask, because as you well know if you do not specialize in a DD spell and put significant exp into it you get eaten alive by AMF just like this spell would. So yes, if you have EEMM team, and you dedicate one mage to say MM and one mage to say Heal, then this could be effective.

If you run EETM then you have a choice, do I use my Mage to do damage and hope not to get eaten by AMF or do I use my mage to Heal and hope not get eaten by AMF. That is the beauty of using it as a DD spell. It has a massive counter, it is called AMF and if you train AMF, it counters lots of things, this spell included.

Now if this was an ED and you could totally protect it by an RoS so that DM could not touch it, OK that would be bad. But it is NOT, it is DD and the only way to counter a big AMF is with more DD. This is CB2 101. Why is this so hard to grasp?

I mean, come on, would you rather face a big Fireball or a big heal, that is what we are talking about, not a big fireball AND a big heal on one minion like say Fireball and GA or PL and Fireball.

Which I will add in my CB2 101 train of thought, if you are going to run a multi-minion team with a FB mage, stick PL on him and the chances of him making it to melee are slim. A person in new player chat showed me that.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 7 2006 12:41 PM EST

And another thing, here is your team:

Tank + Morg + AoI
PL + AoI + IF
Heal + Evasion + AoI
Heavy AC Wall

I use a big AMF to defeat your heal.

Here is my team:

Tank + Morg + AoI
PL + AoI + IF
AS + Evasion + AoI
Heavy AC Wall

You use a big DM to defeat my AS.

How would the end result of it be different? Well actually my big AMF would actually cause your team damage, whereas your big DM would simply reduce my pre-fight HP. So in the end, it is worse to train Heal and face AMF than to train AS and face DM. How is this overpowered?

Wait I know, you will say yah but pre-fight HP is the same as during the fight healing, but that is SOOOO wrong.

Pre-fight HP is fixed. In fight healing is variable, based upon how many minions are alive, when the heal is cast, etc (put him first to heal as many minions as possible, and well, the first round is wasted since no one has taken damage. Put him last and the minion you want to heal could already be dead)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 7 2006 12:55 PM EST

TLDR! :P Nah, only skimmed, I've got to go out. I'll digest later. ;)

I know it's countered by AMF Sef, but you say it'll cause damage to the entire team instead of healing, the other option was to steal healing for the opponents.

You can always train more DD. ;)

As for my team, that's my little secrets. :P

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] November 7 2006 1:00 PM EST

it may be a DD spell, but coupled with a ToE, amf does what to the healing minion? not much. and if the minion heals itself too? next to nothing. same with ga, toe reduces it alot too. and theres seekers too, but for that i would refer you to novices thread.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 7 2006 1:15 PM EST

Obviously paragraphs are difficult for this crowd.

If AMF > Heal Then minions take damage

If AMF > Heal protected by ToE minions take less damage

If AMF > Heal and if you train more Heal, then AMF = Heal or Heal > AMF.

If AMF = Heal no effect

If Heal > AMF then minions healed at percentage of pre-fight HP capped at percentage X

If Train Heal then Heal does not affect caster

If train more DD then less train everything else.

If shoot seekers then target minion with greatest DD trained AND If heal is greatest DD trained, target Heal minion.

If heal minion dies then no more healing

If minion is dead then cannot be healed

If confused about when heal, then fight team with Decay to see affect in action.

And I checked out your team GL and noticed a decided absence of any DD spell. Secret is out!

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] November 7 2006 2:16 PM EST

/me thinks if heal was to be implemented, it should only heal up to a certain percent cap of the total trained HP on each minion disregarding AS.

Mem November 7 2006 2:16 PM EST

I agree with all that, Sef, except the taking damage part. I don't necessarily see why you'd take damage from a healing spell. I guess I'm just sold on my idea of HP stealing...

Drama [Just for fun] November 7 2006 2:31 PM EST

Hey GL, about your big AC wall, he would not get much damage from physical attack, but from a MM or FB or CoC he would get huge damage.
And using a TSA or MgS would only reduce your healing power,
And it's a four minion team you are using, so your heal would be spread a lot.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 7 2006 2:35 PM EST

Well that is certainly a point of debate smallpau1. I like the idea of including AS based HP simply because it puts even more pressure, or perhaps I should keeps up the equal pressure of, do I train AMF or DM and if I can train both, well it even furthers that effect. Anything that helps keep up the is AMF or DM better debate, I like. As soon as one or the other becomes the clear cut way to go, then I think CB loses something.

Another excellent point of debate Mem. I like the idea of actually taking damage so that all the oh no the sky is falling people can be told, yah but if you do not train enough it will cost you rather than heal you. It gives it a Decay like feel, and helps create a balance. Could it create too much of an underpowering effect? Yes I think it could, but I figured if there was a snowballs chance that this could get added to CB, Jon would certainly look out for underpowering effects.

In the end, there is certainly no right or wrong answer for those types of modifications to the idea. I figure we are all typing for typing sake regardless, but I enjoy this type of debate a lot more than the other.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 7 2006 6:10 PM EST

:) I think I'm gonna have to agree to disagree on this one Sef.

But any changes to CB are to be looked forward to.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001wZf">What about a new DD.</a>