Defensive Ex Shots (in General)

:) Looks like someone has taken the approach I was going to.

I've had "The Treasoner" on my fightlist, but had to remove him this morning. He's equipped a defensive 30 Ex Shots (Not sure how big) and now I can't get past Ranged.

The way Ex Shots target minions really hurts. My Tank is hit on the first shot (for about 20K damage) then my invisible PL battery for the lesser splash.

On the next shot of the round however, it's the invisible PL battery that takes the full 20K damage and not the splash. Rendering my AoI and PL useless.

I really hope someone pumps 100K into a bunch of 5 or so Ex Shots, and uses them for defensive purposes only. ;)

the get used up in wins..

They get used up in wins that you shouldn't have won.

I fought him five times, lost every time and the stack didn't decrease from 30.

Maybe I'm not large enough to trigger the "shouldn't have won" part, but I was beating him ever time without them.

Just realised why I'm being hit by these. ;)

It's cheap to pump the '+' on small stacks of ammo, and they count as x3 PTH.

No Evasion or DB will help you versus upgraded small stacks of ammo.

Wait, you mean the cost to boost a stack of 100 is more than the cost to boost two stacks of 50??

Never thought of it like that. Just checked.

2 Ex Shots and 95 at +21.

Cost for +1 is 21 for the x2 and 977 for the x95. 21 * 47.5 is 997.5

Cost for +7 is 117 for the x2 and 8,308 for the x95. 117 * 47.5 is 5,557.5

It looks like the cost does increase the more you have, and that the cost for upgrading x100 isn't twice the cost of x50. :)

Rofl!!! I just bought those and used them up 5 minutes later! I guess you attacked me while I had them equipped! That is an extraordinary tactic though. If I hadn't looked at the forums I would have passed it up! Just goes to show I've got alot more to learn, eh? I think I'll make a stack of 10 Ex shots x100 +100 like those shots were. Thanks for the tip! See you on the battlefield!

:D They were x100 +100? ;) No wonder you hit twice every round! :D

I've got a stack of 95 I'm going to slowly build up.

But now they've gone, you're back on my list! :P

And how is this any different then defensive seekers?

Anyone?

And here is a fine example of those defensive ex shots:

Johnny Bravo explosive shot hit Cloudscape [498181], Microchips [76280], The Grid [90590], Prophecies [32835]

I am getting hit 2-3 times per missile round with them.

Not only to Ex Shots hit the while team, the member being targetted for the main damage changes each shot of the round.

With Seekers, it's only your mage that get's walloped. Your weaker (less protected/AC/whatever) members don't get hit by Seekers. Ex Shots wallop them. ;)

And makes no difference to me Ranger. I don't use a SoD on my Tank, but I will use one, with xMassive +100 or so Ex Shots. Not one team will live past ranged, no matter the minion count, if the Ex Shot is large enough.

;)

GL,

If my mage gets killed with seekers, it is just as good as my whole team getting killed as he is the only damage dealer.

And this is good for the game how?

Some say it is great, stopping people from taking clan points from you. I say poppycock. If you cannot win, then you lose CP's. If you can win, you gain them.

I don't think it's good. I am going to abuse it as much as I can. ;)

So you only lose defensive ammo on a win you shouldn't really have won? In that case, I dread to think what the number one team could do with a stack of 10 inexhaustable xGazillion Ex Shots...

;)

linear weapon 'x' upgrades rock. It's taking me 3,647 to add +7 'x' to a stack of 74 Ex Shots. x142 atm and growing. ;)

I think I'll name them so I don't lose tham, then merge them with other small stacks when they get low...

Koyaanisqatsi (Battle Royale) Starun (Ye Olde Foundrie) Fight Add Starun 13 8:51 AM EST

A 14M SOD on a 912k MPR character.

Ah, the fairness of being a mage.

Seeing a Prophecies took 32K, that meant they did around 160K before reduction.

And that would have been from the Splash as he was the last minion hit. ;)

WooT! SoD + defensive Ex Shots. I'd take them over seekers any day!

Chuck's a good player, the character has 1.2 million PR, but how much is hidden away in the WA? With no WA you could probably round that PR up to 2 million. Nearly a million in Strength and a 14 million NW weapon. 14 million on a Morg gives you around an x1700...so bearing all that in mind I'd expect results. It's not about you being a mage or a tank. It's about good use of available items.

IMHO ;)

GL,

Prophecies is my heavy tank. My other minions are poorly armored and my mage does not even get AC from his AG and COI.

Splash damage is quite powerful from high X ex shots.

Hitting my heavy wall with its massive 100 dex and 40 evasion is not that hard.

Hence the 3 hits a round with all that splash damage from a 14M SOD.

Bah. No one could afford to use massivly pump Ex Shots for normal battles.

But you can easily slap on a x1000 set for defensive fights and just kill all minions how face you regardless of strategy (well, no one uses a RBF anyway...)

That's not good use of available items is it?

I'm at x200 now. Gonna take a break as I've a loan to pay off.

Each 100 'x' is currently costing me a paltry 52,100K.

Ranger, because of your AoI's, the first hit from the Ex Shot per round will target your Wall first, with splash going to your other minons. For the other 2 hits, the order is skewed, with your AoI hidden minions taking the full force instead.

As in the example you posted Proph was the last minion in the damage order, he was hit by splash in that attack. That's around a 160K splash before your AC reduction. Not counting your Protection...

That's a nice splash! :D

Just to add, to get those results Chuck has spent a fair amount of cash, done a bit of work to get there, whereas equipping a set of seekers is easy, slap em on and hit you. I understand why seekers annoy you, but this particular situation isn't about tank and mage. Especially as that spread fire affects all types of minion and can be used quite effectively by all types of minion too......

"whereas equipping a set of seekers is easy, slap em on and hit you."

Any different from;

Whereas equipping a SoD and a set of pumped Ex Shots is easy. slap em on and hit you."

;)

The difference is in the cost. If your char is training archery and equipped with a decent bow you'll find that he won't hit that mage hiding away in the middle of the team with the AoI. However strong he is, however big the bow. 20k later and he's hitting him for all he's worth with seekers. Easy action.

But if you want to do decent damage you need to pump some cash into that SoD, you need to pump some money into the ex shot. You need to do a bit of work. The same sort of work as making a wall work or a nice pair of DB's. If you not pouring money into them then they're second rate and don't really do their job.

Unlike seekers.

I am very, very confused.

Just fought Starun 7 times or so. His slinger totally missed 5 times (the battles only last one round, lucky for me). The two times he hit, it was 3/3 and looked like this:

Johnny Bravo's explosive shot hit Joe [542159], Dave's familiar [235211], Dave [235211]
Johnny Bravo's explosive shot hit Dave [654500], Joe [250062], Dave's familiar [261800]
Johnny Bravo's explosive shot hit Dave's familiar [571871], Joe [217730]

Um, what? Why does he get two extra shots, and why do they primarily target Dave and his familiar? I understand him getting a hit on Joe 2/7 times, that's cool, my Evasion isn't all I thought it was since the last thread on it where I got set straight.

But why, when he does hit, does he get two more shots at the minions behind Joe? And ALL of the shots splash.

Is this how it is supposed to work?

Lol GL dont spend to much money upping them ... they will go down quicker than you realise on defnsive fights ... i had +35s for def and they went down almost every defensive fight (when i shouldnt have won .. people dont take you of there list because they lose a few when they normally win straight away sometimes) ... and with you sinking loads of money into them when they go down merging them with base ones will cost you a fortune

and isnt a bit like all the people that fight wearing a RoE and then put another tatt on when they log off

Is the splash changing the effective target, thereby allowing him to get the extra shots? Dave and his familiar obviously have no evasion, so are sitting ducks. Notice the target in subsequent rounds is the same as the last "splashed" minion in the previous hit... Bug?

I changed my minion order and fought Starun three more times. All three first rounds looked like:

Johnny Bravo's explosive shot hit Dave's familiar [563204], Dave [225281], Joe [215592]

Only one hit. I am pretty sure the targeting on multiple sling shots is bugged. The slinger targets the last splashed minion/familiar for subsequent shots. When I change my order, he gets one clear shot, but since Joe is the last-splashed and has mondo Evasion, he can't get a second hit.

Clear bug? Do we already know this?

This...is old news...why is it being brought up now? O.o

Just curious, but I know I've seen this before/discussed it in Chat. Is it just because he now has a SoD big enough for everyone to realize how effective it is that a thread had to be made about it?

*shrugs* Either way, you can always slap on a RoBF to get away from that Exp. damage.

*rolls laughing* sorry, couldn't resist laughing at the almighty RoBF.

C'mon Jon, boost the RoBF and the JKF.

I'm kinda rambling so I need to go now

Wait, what part is old news... Are you saying the targeting issue I am seeing is standard? If so, why has no one put it in the Wiki? I don't see anything anywhere that states the SoD or explosive shots have the multiple-hit-shift-target feature...?

Actually, do we know how the targeting works in the first place?

Well I thought it was old news.

O_o old news to me. I suppose not to others.

Yeah Sute, the targetting issue was bought up when Ex Shots were originally changed.

The minion order for who takes the next main hit moves every attack in a round. It starts off with first minion first, then I think the last minion in order takes the first hit next. Or something like that.

Using the other targets for Dex/PTH comparisons for extra attacks I hadn't tohught of. Have to look into that more. ;)

Johnny Bravo's explosive shot hit Prophecies [30361], Microchips [74447], The Grid [85704]
Microchips absorbs damage [30361]
Microchips absorbs damage [85704]
Johnny Bravo's explosive shot hit The Grid [352054], Microchips [67677], Prophecies [27792]
Microchips absorbs damage [104000]
Microchips absorbs damage [27792]
Johnny Bravo's explosive shot hit Prophecies [17663], Microchips [64864], The Grid [56200]
Microchips absorbs damage [17663]
Microchips absorbs damage [56200]


Something has to be wrong with the targeting.
In shots 1 and 3, he hits my wall which he should. In shot 2 he hits my mage and tons more damage occurs.
If he would hit the right minion all the time, there would not be as much total damage and rarely I would not die in missile (my mage that is).

Yeah, we know how targeting works. Unless told otherwise, it works like all targeting -- front to back, in lieu of AoI, back to front for MM, and then seekers, exbow, and axbow doing their special things.

There is no way the SoD is supposed to work this way, and if so, it is the single most braindead thing I have ever seen in CB. It looks to me like the function that applies damage is changing the target for the next shot inadverdantly. Since the SoD with explosive shots is the only ranged setup that has splash (thereby triggering the inadverdant target-shift), I think this is a bug that is only seen on the SoD.

Believe me, if Starun were able to beat me, I would have been crying Holy Heck long before now, but I still beat him and have never had fight log on until GL brought up this thread. Now Sutekh is in the hizzie! BUG!

That means as long as the SoD is able to hit its opponent once, it will automatically gain another 2 more rounds of attack? If so, then it really looks like a bug.

Exactly, Ranger, and look at the boot-strap...the last splashed target becomes primary target for the next hit. Change your minion order and I guarantee it will do the same thing. Because your folks stay alive, it actually switches from Prophecies to Grid and then back to Prophecies...

It's not random, its LSFT (Last Splashed First Targeted) *smile*

Nice queueing method, Jonathan! *grin*

Kong, it will still only hit as much as the + and dexterity allow, but the subsequent shots are up against less evasive targets, is all.

In fact, this shows a bit into how the number of shots must be calculated. It looks to be iterative, where there is a "pool" of hit-ability on the offensive side that gets put up against unhit-ability on the target(s). As shots hit, the hit-ability pool is depleted. But since subsequent shots in Starun's case are up against very easy-to-hit targets, his remaining hit-ability gives him two more shots.

This is the first example of seeing a physical attack change targets within one round! w00t!

Yeah, the targetting has been weird since the ex shots were changed. I guess Chuck's one of the few to use them higher up though. My view of it was that the first shot hits at the front, splashes back through the team. Then because they're all on the floor, having been bombed remember, the second shot goes all the way to the back. By then the front guys are back on their feet and so it begins again....


Or it's bugged....

Too funny... Ranger's hits look different because Microchips stays in the middle, never hittable as primary target. Why? Because he has an AoI on. My team has no AoI, so the splash damage does a standard round-robin of all the available targets!

I asked the question on Ex Targetting a couple of times when the splash was first introduced.

I don't think it uses the Dex/Eva of other minions to determin hits. If you fail to hit the first minion (or first minion in fight order I should say) you don't splash. And if you don't land any hits on the first minion, the order doesn't change.

It's if you are able to land more than one hit on the first minion, the order changes for original and splash damages. :/

Besides, Defensive ammo still rocks! Especially with linear upgrade costs and x3 PTH! WooTage!

Yeah, JW, I can see folks thinking it was the way it was supposed to be, but I am pretty sure there is never supposed to be a physical attack that can change primary targets _within one round_. That goes against _everything_ in the standard CB strategy book.

Imagine a 135 million-dollar SoD and explosive shots on a huge single tank! He would kill every team in one round unless they had huge EC and/or massive evasion. This cannot be the way it is supposed to be.

I found something weird too. For Ranger character, the explosive shots do not hit his minion, Cloudscape, at all. Is it supposed to be like that?

It's not just bouncing between two minons, I've seen the lead minion change three times on four minion teams on triple hits.

Maybe it's Jon practicing for when he introduces the new supporter item The Boomerang of Curvyness

This can't remain, GL, it's as simple as that. Just give the largest tank a huge SoD and exp shot and it's lights out for all of CB. The targeting isn't random, it's a mistake.

It must be AoI messing up the hit order change. :/

"Imagine a 135 million-dollar SoD and explosive shots on a huge single tank! He would kill every team in one round unless they had huge EC and/or massive evasion. This cannot be the way it is supposed to be."

Exactly. Why use anything else! It even attacks every round in Melee too! :D

Sute, I like the idea about other targets lowering the hit-pool by lesser amounts, but how would moving onto a 20 dex minion effect this? :/

/me thinking of using just the SoD and explosive shots for my next character and not wearing any melee weapon as well ;)

I don't follow you, GL...

As I have said above, target order makes complete sense to me. For teams without an AoI, the targeting will do a "round-robin", because the last splash will be the next lead target, round and round.

When there is an AoI involved, the targeting for each shot takes that into account (see Ranger's post...Microchips just sits in the middle).

Oh dear. The SoD is overpowered now....it must be nearly change month...

:) Garbled posts of mine, sorry Sute. ;)

I agree with the round robin. But the AoI thing is a little deeper. Three of Rangers Minions have AoI's, one is totally missed for splash dmaage, every time, and another sin't chosen to be main target. While one with an AoI is.

If the AoI was stopping one minion being main target, it should have stopped all three.

Exactly, Kong. Pure focus on this style of fighting would result in everything going to the SoD. I have known since CB1 that if physical attacks were ever changed to allow multiple targets within one round, physical attacks would be totally unstoppable.

Ranger appears to be playing with minion order, so he'll probably have some data soon.

I would guess Cloudscape was not in his listing because he took a round where Cloudscape was already dead?

How does it affect a 4 minion team if three have AoIs equipped? Will it miss the equipped minions?

ah. Soz GL, I didn't look properly at the team...

No. Ranger has a four minion team with three AoI. Prophecies should be main target for each attack, but he isn't.

Hm, yeah, that is weird... But are we sure how Ranger is being hit right now? I think he has been playing around with minion order and AoIs, and he hasn't posted how the SoD hits him yet...

My stack is down to 352 per 'x' now. that's 352K for a x1000 weapon.

Use that on a minion with some STR and a nice sized SoD...

Heh, that would be a meer 3,977,600 o equal the largest MH (x11300) in the game.

Just make sure you're hight enough to never lose ammo on defensive wins and you're golden.

IN my example above Cloudscape was long dead. That was one example from round 3 of missile.

Johnny Bravo's explosive shot hit Prophecies [37970], Microchips [71961], The Grid [79112], Cloudscape [88507]
Cloudscape absorbs damage [37970]
Cloudscape absorbs damage [71961]
Cloudscape absorbs damage [79112]
Johnny Bravo's explosive shot hit Cloudscape [424271], Microchips [69110], The Grid [67369], Prophecies [27734]
Cloudscape absorbs damage [69110]
Cloudscape absorbs damage [67369]
Cloudscape absorbs damage [27734]
Johnny Bravo's explosive shot hit Prophecies [27423], Microchips [76785], The Grid [89928], Cloudscape [101536]
Cloudscape absorbs damage [27423]
Cloudscape absorbs damage [76785]
Cloudscape absorbs damage [89928]


That is from round 1 of missile.
Sut is right on his theory that last hit/first hit for multiple attacks in a round. Which is very bad since my wall is only getting hit first on 2 of the 3 shots while a poorly armored mage get 400k damage even wearing an AOI.

Ah, I forgot PL would kill you from the splash. ;)

It's only ping-ponging for teams with AoI. It's round robin for teams without.

Maybe the ordering should be sorted, availability of Ex Shots decreased, and the splash resistance of the RBF (including aura) upped.

:)

Would give a reason to use the RBF. >;)

Just as an observation, a little aside if you like: the SoD without ex shot isn't worth much to me. With iron shot and standard targetting a Sling of about x150 did about a third of the damage of an ELB of the same size.

Why I sold mine. Ex shot was too difficult to obtain on a regular basis. As with seekers, I don't like relying on 'rares'.

that is not theory ranger.
It first hits the target without an AoI and is upfront.
Then for the second hit in the same round it first hits the last minion in the first hit
for the third hit in the same round it first hits the last minion in the second hit.
And that goes on for the number of hits in that round
Always the last one first except in the first round.

But i dont think the SoD is overpowered but the explosive shots need some tweaking.

And Henk,

Why should the SOD be different than the ELB or any other weapon that hits for multiple times a round?

Why?

After I moved my minions:

Johnny Bravo's explosive shot hit Prophecies [28000], Microchips [51432], Cloudscape [47033], The Grid [45078]
Cloudscape absorbs damage [28000]
Cloudscape absorbs damage [51432]
Cloudscape absorbs damage [45078]

That is all in the first round.

The Grid, who would get the next shot in round 1 above has DB's and evasion so I guess then EACH shot is compared to the minion that would get hit to see if it does?

I asked that same question way back when the SoD first came out.
I noticed the same thing you do now, after several months, but back then no one had an answer for my questions.
So I thought it was the way explosive shots work. This is a question only Jon can answer so if your looking for answers here, your looking in the wrong place.

It is not the fault of the SoD because that thing doesn't give splash damage. Explosive shot do. Have you tried it with iron shots? Do you get the same results
And why not an elb? well arrows/bolts dont have splash damage do they????

O_O Dang. They are broken...

I remember asking the same thing in your thread Henk. ;)

As Johnny said, it's Ex Shots that make the sling. Take their splash away, and you might just as well go back to using Bows.

Unless you don't want to train archery! :P

Exactly, Ranger. It compares to the next target it would hit, and if there is still enough "hit" in the attackers "hit pool" as opposed to the target's "can't hit me pool", the next shot lands too.

A very revealing look at the way multiple shots are determined! It would appear to be dynamic and iterative (I guess it would have to be with things like axbows, etc.) instead of the number of shots being determined at the beginning of the round. It is more apparent in this case because the target is actually changing. *smile*

GL, Johnny, Henk, and everyone who brought this up before, sorry there was less notice of it... I think with all the changes, splash, PL, evasion, etc. everyone just thought it was the way it was supposed to be (we still aren't even sure it isn't *grin*).

You guys at the top just thought the SoD and ex shot were toys for the kids, didn't you? Come on admit it!?!??! ;)

/me strolls back up the stairs of his Ivory Tower...

What was that, Johnny? I can't hear you way down there...?

:)

ROFL! :D

Now, defensive usages? ;)

I'd like to revisit the beginning of this thread...When does defensive ammo get used up? I see it used on every defensive fight I win.

Novice,

I think your right. You have to click on the 'update stats now' link to see a change. Just refreshing the page of your opponent will not show a decrease in the ammo they have.

As I understood, every defensive win that is not a massive win uses ammo.

IE if a 1 MPR chararacter attacks you and loses, you will not lose ammo. It has to be a "competitive" battle.

Yes, the win must be "appreciable" or somesuch, a gray area that is not well-defined...

For the record, my SoD is 5x712+77 14.5 mil NW. I upped 195 explo shots to 11x100+42 for about 150k CB$, primarily coz i was in a hurry to wish Bast's Dixie Cousins "Happy Thanksgiving", with the aforementioned results in "collateral damage" :)

I think upping the SoD to 5x1000 would provide the same results with base explo ammo as with these souped up shots; and naming the SoD and the explo shots would make for an extra bonus. Ah well, it would be a nice n merry Christmas this season ;)

However, the SoD with explo shots is primarily effective only against multi-minion teams. Against single minion teams, for instance, Pit's Night Spirit, I am doing appreciably less damage with my 14 mil NW SoD than I used to do with my 6 mil NW ELB 6x363+52, 250k dmg against 400k dmg with the ELB.

Perhaps, people will now begin dusting their mothballed Cloaks of Balrog Flame to counter explo shots :)

mmm chuck, you mean rune? xD

Yeah, even though RoBF is not as effective at high levels, or so people say, I plan on keeping with mine (especially with the rise of SoD teams and the amount of solo FB mages out there)

                        # explosive shot
                        # ...this is a pita

great. why can't you ever find weird behavior in the easy stuff. :)

Lol, I'll take it ex shot isn't supposed to work that way then.....;)

I think it's fixed now.

:D

Seems to be.

Aegis's explosive shot hit Jangpir [8377], Gasunhan [3891], Phioniold's familiar [4382], Phioniold [4197], Telove [4322]
Aegis's explosive shot hit Jangpir [6221], Gasunhan [2924], Phioniold's familiar [3265], Phioniold [3128], Telove [3215]

Aegis's explosive shot hit Jangpir [6304], Gasunhan [2810], Phioniold's familiar [3173], Phioniold [3040], Telove [3130]
Aegis's explosive shot hit Jangpir [9169], Gasunhan [4186], Phioniold's familiar [4721], Phioniold [4524]

Aegis's explosive shot hit Gasunhan [10437], Phioniold [4796]
Aegis's explosive shot hit Gasunhan [7743]

So how does targetting work now?

As usually. First visible minion is hit, everyone else suffers from Splash.

Death only changes the targeting for a new round, nothing changes in the same round. :)

That commented code is priceless! Thanks, Jonathan! And a Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours!

We have pita bread in CB?
/me goes searching :P

Naan bread trumps Pita. ;)

A whole crusty loaf trumps them both :D

You cannot have an Extra Large Donna in a full loaf of crusty bread! ;)

But, warm crusty loaves are yummy with some butter! ;)

and plenty of fresh bacon, sausages and eggs inside them, mmmmmm.
We have a 24 hour Jake's takeaway here so no need for expensive donna's in the early hours, we get cheap(ish) breakfast butties *drools*.
Either that or any melt we want, sausage and bacon in a baguette covered in melted cheese, and I'm depressing myself because I can't afford one :(
I can't believe I'm having to use nospellcheck tags for this post >.

doner kebab!!!!