Explosive Shot! (in General)


Adminedyit November 26 2006 5:10 PM EST

I recently used Rangers SoD and some uber explosive shot (if you want the exact stats ask him) here is a fight vs the second highest MPR character in the game, which by all means i should (and normaly do) lose.

Carnage Blender >> Fight NWO (he owns me normaly)

Vlad Tepes defeated NWO (Hell Blenders) after 1 rounds of combat (yup you read that right 1 round)

Physical
Vlad Tepes (wow look at that damage) NWO
Ranged Hits / Shots / Avg Damage 3 / 3 / 2,388,764 0 / 0 / 0
Melee Hits / Blows / Avg Damage 0 / 0 / 0 0 / 0 / 0

Magical
Vlad Tepes NWO
Enchantments Cast 2 10
DD Cast / Avg Damage 0 / 0 2 / 344,876

You are awarded $299 and your Minions receive 51 exp each.
You have $438,913. Battle allocation: 17.

Play-by-play: Off On On non-win

Post-battle stats
Minion EXP HP ST DX AC
The Impaler 6,913 -1,086,803 1,106,693 829,465 116
DI Ammo
2,840,479 59

The Voivode 6,918 1,104,619 23 20 365 0

The Dracul 6,921 20 20 20 114 0

The Vampyre 6,917 -440,966 20 25 120 0 / 191,970


Play-by-play

Vlad Tepes (thrice darned DM)
The Impaler's Protection fizzles under Dispel Magic
The Dracul's Ablative Shield fizzles under Dispel Magic
The Vampyre cast Antimagic Field on Noise (0.31)
The Vampyre cast Antimagic Field on Anarchy's familiar (0.29)
The Vampyre's Protection fizzles under Dispel Magic

NWO
Chaos cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (566,400)
Riot cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (2,310,645)
Chaos cast Guardian Angel on all friendly Minions (?) <--- : (
Anarchy cast Ablative Shield on all friendly Minions (736388)

enchantment effects that cannot be determined before combat are displayed as '?'

Ranged Combat

Vlad Tepes
The Impaler's explosive shot hit Chaos [1112506], Noise [470253], Anarchy [521474], Anarchy's familiar [544928], Riot [462069]
Chaos's Guardian Angel smote The Impaler (412335)
Noise's Guardian Angel smote The Impaler (235803)
Anarchy's Guardian Angel smote The Impaler (259757)
Anarchy's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Impaler (269634)
Riot's Guardian Angel smote The Impaler (232480)
The Impaler's explosive shot hit Chaos [789030], Noise [336761], Anarchy [380323], Anarchy's familiar [397158], Riot [343848]
Noise's Guardian Angel smote The Impaler (168826)
Anarchy's Guardian Angel smote The Impaler (105756)
Anarchy's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Impaler (194493)
Riot's Guardian Angel smote The Impaler (133382)
The Impaler's explosive shot hit Chaos [938943], Noise [402822], Anarchy's familiar [466178]
Noise's Guardian Angel smote The Impaler (14565)
Anarchy's familiar's Guardian Angel smote The Impaler (209209)
The Impaler cries "Die! You Weak, Pathetic, Fool!"

R.I.P. Noise, Chaos, Anarchy, Anarchy's familiar, Riot

NWO
Noise takes damage from his own Magic missile (96013)!
Noise's Magic missile hit The Vampyre [230500]
Anarchy's familiar takes damage from his own Magic missile (95957)!
Anarchy's familiar's Magic missile hit The Vampyre [459252]

R.I.P. The Impaler, The Vampyre



forgive my horrible format skills and my childish remarks on the post but the facts remain the same. I should not beat NWO at all let alone in _1_ROUND_!!

Say what you will but i think this proves that explosive shot (dare i say it) is over powered.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] November 26 2006 5:15 PM EST

and i will ask here otherwise peeps will start spamming ranger.
Stats of the explosive shot and SoD?

Because that is some monster damage!!!!!!!!
I knew the SoD had it in him.

QBJohnnywas November 26 2006 5:23 PM EST

I'm not sure it proves it's overpowered. Could you beat anybody else with it? Or was it just NWO? If you could beat everybody in the top ten then maybe, but if it's only one other team then that doesn't count as overpowered IMO...

The SoD is a named x250, so x400. What's the stats on the shot?

Adminedyit November 26 2006 5:26 PM EST

i think you missed the point johnny i just beat him in 1 round. Again i say it 1 round. With a weapon and ammo that had to be less than 3m NW combined. Again i say it 1 round.

QBRanger November 26 2006 5:30 PM EST

59 Explosive Shots [11x500] (+28) 217,674

and my SOD x250 named

Xenko November 26 2006 5:40 PM EST

a) Exp shots are fairly rare, and hard to find on a consistent basis.

b) No one can keep exp shots that high every day for every fight. It's just not economical. At all.

These threads complaining about how overpowered SoD + Exp Shots need to realize that no one could keep it up. It's just a waste of money on ammo, and it really doesn't matter if you attack someone that much more powerful and win because you spent several hundred k on upping your ammo.

Xenko November 26 2006 5:43 PM EST

Well.. unless we are talking about defensive ammo... but I'm not sure how def. ammo works. I can't find it in the wiki either... I really wish the wiki had search functionality.

QBOddBird November 26 2006 5:43 PM EST

Kultur, that's absolutely correct.


However, this is also a very nice look into the future, when the big USD spenders start aiming their wallets for the SoD. ^_^ Imagine the damage from the new [5x6000](+100) SoD that'll eventually come about....I'm not complaining, mind you, I just think it's an example of how good this weapon will be and how much everyone will hate that.

QBRanger November 26 2006 5:44 PM EST

Kul,

I agree, one cannot use them all the time. But using them for defense is not out of the question.

That is the problem. As with seekers, if I lose 4 people from my fight list due to exshots or seekers, then I realistically have a fight list of like 4 people. Im sure other people (most mages) in clans in the mid levels of the game already have a hard time finding others to attack at/near their PR/Score. With defensive ammo, the fight lists of people just get cut shorter and shorter.

For mages it is worse due to the fact seekers only affect mages while exshots can affect everyone.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] November 26 2006 5:45 PM EST

big shots, but indeed like Johnny said, it doesnt prove anything.
Yes you've beaten NWO in one round, but have you tried doing it again?

He uses no evasion, so this means you get loads of hits the first round. And with that big damage modifier no small wonder.
He has little AC and no protection and only a relative small AS.

With that triple hit it would be easy.
But does it mean its overpowered? i think not.
Does it mean explosive shots need a limit on upgrading? i think so.

You just pumped 200k into a very small stack and will not do so on a regular basis, will you?

QBJohnnywas November 26 2006 5:47 PM EST

NWO's set up has a big weakness anyhow - MM fighting from the back to the front - a good sized tank can take advantage of that. I notice against Sut's team it took two battles to win...

QBJohnnywas November 26 2006 5:51 PM EST

And looking at the following fights, it looks like it gives you a bit more of an edge against the other teams around there...but not 1 round wins. If it was really overpowered it would let you beat everyone with the same amount of fights. No contest. It's powerful for sure, and yes the thought of somebody with lots of cash pumping the weapon AND the ammo is very very scary. But no more scary than 400+ AC....

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 26 2006 5:52 PM EST

One round guys... That's the main point.

A Massive EBL + x500 Slayers would need a munber of rounds equal tot he minion count in the opposing team.

If it can't kill everyone in the top ten, big deal, spend another 200K getting to x600. Or x700. Whatever is needed.

500K is a drop in the ocean to guys suing 135 Million NW weapons...

I don't want to highlight where the fault lies. Is it USD, Defensive Ammo, Ex shots? Or a combination of all?

But people really can't see a problem here?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 26 2006 5:55 PM EST

Sorry edy, but all this proves is that Ranger is willing to waste money upping ammon for political purposes...

In order to fend off NWO's attacks, you'd have to spend nearly 200k a week on seekers or exp shot...

This is not one of the signs of the apocalypse people it's smoke and mirrors...

QBsutekh137 November 26 2006 5:56 PM EST

Johnny, to answer your question, NWO isn't the only one. If this were a common stance, I would have to remove Vlad Tepes from my (already sparse) fight list as well. I only kept fighting so I could run down his shot by having him beat me. *smile*

I can't believe the SoD was that small -- the hits on my mage would lane for 1.3 million. Are the upgrade curves on arrows such that uber ammo can be had in similar fashion for archers? Or is this only on explosive shot?

QBJohnnywas November 26 2006 5:57 PM EST

The biggest problem here is probably a combination of the three things. The multiple targetting is what gives the ex shot the edge. If it didn't do that it wouldn't be anywhere near as powerful.

But USD...well, that's a whole other thing. USD is in the game, we can't escape that fact but it is almost a consideration to be taken outside of normal gameplay. Within the confines of the game a weapon like that would need a lot of fighting to make the money to boost it. If USD wasn't in the game things would be a whole lot different. It's presence makes it a very difficult thing to judge how overpowered or not something is.

Xenko November 26 2006 6:00 PM EST

"500K is a drop in the ocean to guys suing 135 Million NW weapons..."

I don't see people purchasing 135 Million NW weapons every week, which is a big difference. If ammo is used on wins, then in that fight, with 3 exp shots, thats a cost of $11,068 for that 1 win. Who can keep that up, even if it is only equipped defensively?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 26 2006 6:01 PM EST

It's all ammo Sute, x500 is a x6 damage increase to the weapon you use. ;)

Adminedyit November 26 2006 6:01 PM EST

ok here are some tests
versus Sut The battle ended in a draw after 5 rounds of combat. But then i get that some times with out the SoD.

vesus G_Beee Vlad Tepes defeated Lorenzo (Hidden Agenda) after 3 rounds of combat i normaly beat him anyways but not inranged only.

vesus Hzarb Vlad Tepes defeated The Lega (The Knighthood) after 5 rounds of combat he normaly beats me.

versus ShadowSparkle Vlad Tepes defeated Failure (Jago) after 6 rounds of combat again i normaly beat him anyways.

I didn't test this versus SNK or fellow clanmates but thats most of the high MPR characters i believe.

Kultur: this isn't for normal fighting ammo we're talking defensive ammo i'm averaging over 2m a hit with a less than 3m NW weapon.

Henk: same too you its defensive ammo. and as for loads of hits the first round it was just 1 round and yes i tried it again.

Johnny: fight NWO see just how weak that set up is.

QBJohnnywas November 26 2006 6:02 PM EST

An named ELB of a similar NW with similarly boosted basic arrows would hit for more. My tiny little ELB (x85) with basic arrows and a ST of under 300k hits for up to 150k per strike.

The damage he's getting is normal, considering the stats of the ammo and the ST involved. The potentiality of the weapon because of it's multiple targets at once and the possibilities of USD spending is where we should be looking.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 26 2006 6:05 PM EST

In a normal fight, you might hit three times per round, and use 9 ammo overall.

If you have large enough Ex Shots to win all your fights in one round, you could get away with only using 3, down to a possible 1, if your first missile kills everyone.

I don't have the CB to keep that kind of expenditure up, but soem folks most likely do.

At least for enough of the time to make a difference.

Like being able to beat the top character int he game with someone much smaller. If only for increased rewards, and not an exercise to lower thier score.

Regardless, I can't accept that people cannot see how this is a cheap and easy way to skew the game.

QBJohnnywas November 26 2006 6:06 PM EST

Ed, NWO is so strong against you because of his GA more than his attack. You just need to see from your battle above. He gets your tank in the first round from his GA. NWO isn't a weak team, but MM has it's weakness because of the way it works.

And what you're saying is that the SoD and it's ex shots didn't really make that much of a difference to your fights then? I would expect more of a difference from the results if it were really overpowered.

QBsutekh137 November 26 2006 6:06 PM EST

Johnny, just a little correction, the SoD and explosive shots don't "multiple target", they "multiple damage". Jonathan fixed the multiple targeting issue. *smile*

Novice, he wouldn't have to spend _anything_ to fend off NWO's attacks. You think NWO is going to keep him on his fight list if he loses every time? It's brinkmanship, except the defender is completely in charge of the brink. No one is going to keep foolishly calling that bluff. A stack of uber ammo would _never_ deplete unless the user accidentally left it on when aggressing.

Low blow (imo) saying Ranger is just being political, by the way. I don't see that at all. I'm not going to say I don't love that fact that Ranger is running mage right now, because it helps mage teams get some balance. Sutekh making comments = "whining". Ranger making comments = "Ranger". That's a Good Thing. *smile*

Adminedyit November 26 2006 6:07 PM EST

Sut those wins and draws vs you were with the axbow equipped *great big smile*

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 26 2006 6:08 PM EST

:D

'm gald someone with the resorces is putting this into practice, so it can be aired.

I would have done it, but just like my "Let's see if we can influence the AH auto bidding" I just don't have the resources atm. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 26 2006 6:12 PM EST

Sutekh has nailed this completely.

You fight Vlad and he one rounds you with 2 Mil Ex Shot damage. You do that a couple of times as you work through your fight list. You're going to remove Vlad and not fight him again.

As a masochist, you might decide to waste some of your BA buy losing to run down his defensive stock.

But how often do you do that? one a day? Only once per week? In the end, you will stop fighting him.

QBRanger November 26 2006 6:16 PM EST

I am still shocked most people do not see this is bad for the game.

I do have a nice view of the game running a top tank and now a top mage character. Tanks, especially with the new changes to melee upgrades, have it much easier than mages. Of course tanks need NW, that point is not for debate.

The NW of the tank was more than the mage of course.

However, the mage is far more vulnerable to many more things than tanks are. Exshot and seekers are basically tank only items.

What do mages have to help them massively ramp up their damage as not to be farmed.

Would it be so nice to have an item that boosts mages damage 3x, 4x...7x? Expendable of course, but equipped for defense. How many mages would you then lose off your fight list novice?

I did raise 1 set of exshots to x500 for "political" purposes, just to show how uber they can be. All one needs is a TOA tank, some spare cash, and you can become basically invulnerable to those around you. Of course if your a mage, your hosed as there is nothing you can use to boost your damage only for defense.

Also, tanks have those pecky seekers which go right to the mage, most likely killing him/her/it before melee combat even begins. And one does not need a massive elb. Just a TOA with its inate PTH, some nice dex, some + on the elb and massive seekers.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] November 26 2006 6:20 PM EST

Sorry, but surely the only 'problem' here is the fact that Jon made the x on ammo a direct percentage increase on damage?
You can keep complaining about the specific types of ammo but we would still have a 'problem' as you call it if someone made standard ammo that big also.
You aren't complaining about the apparant power seekers and explosive shots have or how large you can make defensive ammo, you are actually just against the way Jon made the damage multiplier on ammo work.
If you all admitted to that then I would be able to see your point, I still don't have a problem with the system as it is still expensive enough when people above you fight you even once each but I would be much happier with your views if you expressed them against the correct issue.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 26 2006 6:21 PM EST

Zog FTW!

QBRanger November 26 2006 6:26 PM EST

I certainly agree that the upgrading of the exshots is out of wack.

However, I still think seekers, even base, are too powerful.

You can say, let the mage train evasion.

If they do that, the DD level goes down----> more vulnerable to AMF.

Tanks can train AMF on a different minion to get that effect. And a lower DD compared to the AMF lets the mage take more damage. EC on the other hand, like some people are spouting, does not lower damage linearly like AMF and certainly does not do splash back damage.

But, if after this set of posts, I cannot show you how bad defensive ammo is, then I guess I have failed.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 26 2006 6:30 PM EST

right ranger, we get it, you want less choices...

Xenko November 26 2006 6:31 PM EST

I'm beginning to see what the problem is, and I will have to agree. The difference between seekers and exp shots, is that seekers can only kill 1 target per round, whereas exp shots can theoretically kill every target in one round.

And I will agree that people equipping super-huge exp shots on a team will eventually mean no one would fight them, thus the using up of ammo is a non-issue.

I guess we have left WWII phase of CB, and have entered the "Cold War" phase of CB. Everyone will equip super-ammo on defense, and no one will attack anyone else because they know they will lose in an explosive "Armageddon". So we will sit in a stalemate for the rest of the game because initiating a fight is an automatic loss. What an interesting turn of events... I'm sure Dec. will bring about a big change.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] November 26 2006 6:34 PM EST

So does the equation for ammo need to be changed?

And your comparing mages and tanks?
Mages for one dont need huge nw's to be effective
Tanks do, so if your ranting about how weak mages are and how "easy" it is for tanks to get damage. well excuse me, you need to pump loads of cash into a tank before it becomes nearly as effective as a mage of the same level.

And training evasion to a point were you can dodge most attacks in the 3 rounds of ranged doesnt use up that much exp.

QBRanger November 26 2006 6:36 PM EST

'right ranger, we get it, you want less choices...'

No Novice. And by now if you cannot "figure out" what I want, then I must not be clear enough.

I want balance to the game. Seekers are quite the unbalanced item. Give me something for mages that is comparable and I will be just fine. A disposable item that lets me target tanks with my MM first missile round. Or perhaps an item that boosts my damage based upon how much I upgrade it, disposable of course.

But then you and other tanks will cry foul.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] November 26 2006 6:54 PM EST

If you thought they were that bad you should have complained when you were a tank.
Yes, you have now played both sides of the field but you still only thought they were unbalanced once you started playing a mage.
Seekers have been around for years now and have never been thought as problematic and secondly, this thread is about explosive shots.
If you also read above again I'm still sure your problem is with the way upgrades work when it comes to this defensive ammo, not the use of large defensive ammo full stop.
If I thought a part of my own strategy was overpowered I wouldn't wait until I started one that was weak against it to complain about it, I'd either complain now or not at all.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 26 2006 6:55 PM EST

Not only that, it will be worse for the game. We will def see a 'Cold War' as Kultur put it, people unwilling to fight anyone, who isn't actively fighting themselves.

How much fun will that be?

"So does the equation for ammo need to be changed?"

Yes.

And equipping 'defensive' equipment needs to be looked at. The equipment swapping coodown isn't a wanted fix though. ;)

"And your comparing mages and tanks?
Mages for one dont need huge nw's to be effective
Tanks do, so if your ranting about how weak mages are and how "easy" it is for tanks to get damage. well excuse me, you need to pump loads of cash into a tank before it becomes nearly as effective as a mage of the same level."

I used to be 'Mr Mage', for a number of reasons. I'm running my second Tank now, and I'll admit, runnig a tank properly is harder than running a Mage.

But, I could rent a WTHBBQ weapon, or suit of armour, and perform far above my station (if I can't but what I need outright).

You could call it tactics, or strategy, but I as a tank hve the option to do so.

There's nothing similar that Mages can do to inflate thier 'Power'. The Wepaon Allowance only helps hide this.

"And training evasion to a point were you can dodge most attacks in the 3 rounds of ranged doesnt use up that much exp."

Buying your defensive ammo up to +100 (equivalent to +300) doesn't cost too much, and negates any amount of Evasion you could train.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 26 2006 7:00 PM EST

"If you thought they were that bad you should have complained when you were a tank."

'Grass is always greener' Zog. ;) Or is it 'Monkey can't see the length of it's tail'? I'm not sure which adage is most fitting! ;)

"Seekers have been around for years now and have never been thought as problematic and secondly, this thread is about explosive shots."

I think the recent ranged and physical damage changes have combined to highlight the current problem.

QBRanger November 26 2006 7:10 PM EST

Zog,

If you cannot see that things have changed A LOT for tanks, in the past few months, then I cannot say anything more. Damage in missile rounds went up 20% among other changes to tanks.

Also, in CB1, who needed seekers when Elb's did over 10M a hit and basically took out 1 minion a round. There was no DM, and mages were underpowered. Everyone knew tanks ruled.

I thought CB2 was partly made to address that, but perhaps I was wrong.

This thread is about ex shots, but seekers do fall partly into the ideas presented in this thread.

QBOddBird November 26 2006 7:17 PM EST

Ranger is such a hottie.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] November 26 2006 7:29 PM EST

Even at lower levels in CB1 seekers were far from overpowered and until the change to upgrades people were more than happy with them, even mages.
For the 3rd time, it is obviously the fact that each 'x' adds 1% to damage that has started to create these discussions about specialty ammo.
The fact that the change has caused a gap between the types of ammo (mostly because those 2 are really the only ones people actually upgrade) is why you think it is overpowered, I'm pretty sure that if people started doing the same with all the other types we would see the same effects, if maybe to a slightly lesser degree.
Yes, we know you hate seekers, you spout it out in any thread you can see it even having an ounce of relevance, some of us actually have some diversity to the things we complain about.

PoisoN November 26 2006 7:39 PM EST

Hey, NWO was not made to be a test dummy X-). And not designed to fight vs. teams (or equipment) with multiple of my NW (except Freed ;-) ). And especially not to fight in the new "Tankblender Age". I already accepted that Jonathan made the game to prefer special ways to play the game.

I think it is a new meta-game, check if your opponent wears defensive equipment. The solution for the the defensive ammo is simple, if you use(no matter who the challenger is) it, you lose it. Or as your minion has to handle a completely new ammo it is not as effective the next few hundred battles. And seeker ammo could be weaker vs. non mage minions.

Btw. can someone make a thread "Familiars need AC + Evasion and mage shields are overpowered"?

QBRanger November 26 2006 7:40 PM EST

And you Zog seem to take the opposite opinion of anything I type. Even if that position is not based in reality.

But in past posts, there were plenty of replies stating that upgraded ammo is not bad and defensive ammo is good for the game. Stops people from taking clan points among other baseless opinions.

I hope most people agree now that upgraded ammo is not a good thing.

But as BBQ says, I'm still a hottie.

QBRanger November 26 2006 7:48 PM EST

Poison,

Someone, I think it may have been novice, did make a familiar loving thread and it was strange in that Jon actually seemed to endorse the idea.

Perhaps someone can post the link for you to see, or CM it to you.

The MgS, well that is another story. But for fear of getting rebuffed/yelled at by Zog, I will hold my thoughts on that item.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] November 26 2006 7:58 PM EST

How is your view based on any reality?
"Oh look, some guy threw some hugely upgraded explosive shots at me and look at the damage but he hasn't tried it with Iron shots yet so explosive shots must be overpowered"
You need results from all the other amoo upgraded to the same point to have any real swaying opinion.
I have always said through this thread that it should be tried with the other types of ammo and I reckon there probably wont be a huge difference and if there is it is still likely to be due to the percentage factor from upgrades.
If I were to try make a point of something being overpowered I would at least test the alternatives first. To say "it 'is' overpowered" while only testing the one is as if I had never done physics before but stated that of the elements at my disposal, Magnesium and Sulphur react best with water having only tried those 2 and seeing impressive results.
For this argument to have any basis of truth, the fixed factor would need to be the 'x' and the '+' of the ammo obviously using the same weapon for each class. The only variable would be which ammo is used.
Do some tests before spouting the same balony you have always done, at least my replies are stated as my theory on it, not an actual fact.

Kong Ming November 26 2006 8:17 PM EST

The problem with explosive shots is that it can hit all targets. And a highly upgraded set of explosives shots can kill off all targets as long as it can hit.

PoisoN November 26 2006 8:20 PM EST

Zog. I interpret this thread more to be an anti defensive equipment thread. Big ammo in big weapons does big^2 damage - everybody should know that since Krang dealt the ultimate big blow.

Just saw novice' familiar thread, interesting. It would be nice to have a familiar with 25 AC for the cost of a few thousand xp points. Pure ownage ;-)

Hyrule Castle November 26 2006 8:24 PM EST

regardless of what everyone says.... 1 of 2 things have to happen

1.) explosive shots have to lose there extreme overpowering capabilities....

or...

2.) There has to be some kind of Armour to completely nullify the overpowering of a SOD and EXP shots.....

Either way something has to be done ?

Adminedyit November 26 2006 8:31 PM EST

zog no other ammo what ever the stat on it is can hit every member of a team. thats my point. I, a tank, took out a high powered 4 minion team in 1 round. That is the realm of FB mages. Ask Sut what he thinks about tanks intruding on his realm of spread damage.

QBsutekh137 November 26 2006 10:01 PM EST

Edyit: No, the wins and draws were mainly with the exp shot... I checked my fight play-by-play when you were beating me, you were back to the axbow soon after (you rarely draw and never win with that, at least not that I have seen...the SoD makes a world of difference against me.)

Also, I don't have any problem with tanks getting in on spread-fire. But I will say this once and only once more (though it has been said about 400 times so far in this thread):

I CANNOT EQUIP AMMO. I CANNOT TAKE A DEFENSIVE STANCE.

Now. If you would like to comment on that, then comment on that. Directly. Tell me what I should do to have a "defensive stance" that is a luxury of the tank. Hell, equipment swaps are a luxury of everyone _except_ mages.

If I could spend money on something that made my Fireball seek, or spread more, or spread less, or be more powerful, etc. etc. when I am away, I would do so. It would keep my clan points up, annoy my attackers, and give me "surprise" experience.

I cannot do that. I do NOT have that choice. I can't swap MPR around like equipment can swap around. Better yet, tanks get an ALLOWANCE when they are swapping things around, not even adding to their total PR! (Does ammo even add to PR?)

This is bothersome, isn't it? Go ahead, be consistent. Say "Nya nya! Mages suck!" At least that would be consistent, and I would actually respect it. But how can _anyone_ say Ranger is asking for less choice, or that he is whining, or that mages have it made in this regard? That's ridiculous. Call a spade a spade and then debate from there. If you can't get on the same page, at least get in the same section of the fricking library, yeah? The generic issue here is that mages cannot take a defensive stance. There is nothing that allows them to drastically change their attack tactics That is what Ranger is commenting upon, no more, no less.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] November 26 2006 10:23 PM EST

That is why I'm starting tests on upgraded ammo Sut.
I've called a truce with Ranger and know that I'm being pretty pigheaded about the whole thing and tests will prove a point one way or another.
Oh and 'Nyah!, Nyah! Mages suck' ;)

QBsutekh137 November 26 2006 11:13 PM EST

I don't see you as pig-headed, Zog... It's hard to get to get talking about the same thing sometimes, and I am glad a truce is bearing some scientific fruit... I guess we will see how it goes! *smile*

And yeah, mages do suck! *wink*

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] November 26 2006 11:25 PM EST

Yeah, Rangers willingness to finance the venture coupled with my persistance to put coursework off until the last minute will hopefully result in some true results and tell us how to balance ammo out because for all we know even slayers could be out of whack.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 27 2006 3:22 AM EST

Poison, I used to think Mage Shields were overpowered, until I realised I could ditch it and train Protection on that minion instead, and when my Prot reached the + of my MgS, it would be doing the same thing, wihtout the restrictions...

But, Having both Prot and a MgS is another story! ;) Multi minion teams are overpowered! :D ;)

Kong Ming November 27 2006 3:45 AM EST

"But, Having both Prot and a MgS is another story!"

That was what I was thinking of doing for my next character ;) I'm going to train protection until about 20 on an enchanter and using a RoS on another to ensure it doesn't get dispelled.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 27 2006 4:23 AM EST

"coupled with my persistance to put coursework off until the last minute"

:D

ROFL! Is there anyone that doesn't?

chuck1234 November 27 2006 5:28 AM EST

2.) There has to be some kind of Armour to completely nullify the overpowering of a SOD and EXP shots.....
Hyrule Castle


There is a way to nullify explosive shots, its the Rune of Balrog Flame. Also, the SoD minus explo shots is just a toy, with iron shots, or even with explo shots against a single minion, it causes lesser damage than a smaller NW ELB.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 27 2006 6:00 AM EST

As it should. With both the wepaon and ammo having smaller base damage...

As for the RoBF. Don't be silly. It's fire resist is tiny. It could be useful versus normal sized Ex Shots (as long as the Sling itself isn't massive...), but would do nothing versus defensive ammo.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 27 2006 6:08 AM EST

As an example.

In the Wiki a RBF is listed as absorbing about 10% of it's level from fire damage (and Ex Shot spread) done.

In July this was increased by 10% (so about 11%), and September by another 20% (around 13.2% now).

The aura works at 25%.

The largest RBF in the game is 1,112,344. Named that would be 1,156,838.

On the minion wearing it, it would absorb about 152,703. The rest would get 38,176.

Not worth it.

muon [The Winds Of Fate] November 27 2006 8:02 AM EST

Hmm

This conversation was going on in chat once or twice when I was on, and somebody (sorry buddy, but I forget who you were \-:) gave a fantastic suggestion:

Only the first minion hit should be hit according to the Strength of the slinging minion. The splash damage should be calculated as if it were slung from a Str 20 minion.

Why? Well, it makes explosive ammo useful (upgrading does help) without being totally overpowered. I haven't been around the game long enough to know, but if a base str/dex minion wielded a MHx1000+100, I would imagine that the damage that the minion would do to be very minor, despite the massive NW invested in the weapon.

-----------------------

I dunno, but it seemed to be a pretty useful argument to me. The explosive ammo thing was something that always struck me as an InstaWin tool; I think NS got sick of me saying so back when he was talking about the linear upgrade curve for damage of weapons. I hope that the community (or perhaps Jon alone) can figure out some way to resolve the issue...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 27 2006 8:31 AM EST

I'm not sure how the new damage mechanics would work with low Str. Str and weapon x are relatively equal now.

Maybe someone could test how much a x1000 weapon does on 20 Str minions?

Shooto November 27 2006 10:37 AM EST

With a 20 STR minion, using a x1405 BoTH, the following was recorded:
Adams dislimbed Starjin [948]
Adams dislimbed Starjin [939]
The defending minion had no AC or anything else to modify the defense and a STR and DEX of around 35 each. Hope that helps.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 27 2006 10:39 AM EST

Strange. Maybe there's something in the code for base Str. :/

Would you be able to see if a 30 Str changes it much?

Shooto November 27 2006 10:52 AM EST

Doubled the STR to 40 and here are the results of 3 battles:

1. Adams decapitated Starjin [1063]

2. Adams dislimbed Starjin [1441]

3. Adams decapitated Starjin [1253]

average of 1252.

Shooto November 27 2006 10:57 AM EST

Results from 80 STR:

Battle 1:
Adams decapitated Ubpin [2070]
Adams decapitated Starjin [1803]
Adams decapitated Roub [1670]
Adams decapitated Baro [2096]

Battle 2:
Adams decapitated Ubpin [1943]
Adams eviscerated Starjin [1552]
Adams decapitated Roub [1633]
Adams decapitated Baro [1658]
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001xcA">Explosive Shot!</a>