Jigorokano Familar Needs Improvement! (in General)

It's like the worst tattoo ever. Its damage is close to NOTHING plus the fact that it has to wait until the fourth round to even begin attacking, which is, as I said before, close to NOTHING. Some may say it's a good meatshield. No, no it's not. It's a horrible meatshield. Its high HP/UC-evasion/whatever doesn't compare. A RoS of the same level would be better than a JF. I don't think that suggesting it be improved is too crazy of an idea. I mean VBs and AoIs are godly. MgS can be really really useful. TSAs are useful to tanks. And RoEs are useful up to a point.

It is a true supporter item.

Excellent at lower level, when there is not a lot of AC and damage. But at the higher levels tapers off.

However, if you do not like your JKF, please feel free to use the tattoo artist to make it into a far more useful tattoo.

Its evasion is, however, useful vs archery based characters as a nice defensive minioin.

As I say to lots of people, my strategy isn't particularly great overall but I'd actually say most of my score is thanks to my JKF far more than any of my other items including the VB.
My JKF is often my surviving minion which shows firstly that the meatshield title must have a decent level of posterity and secondly that he must do a reasonable amount of damage to successfully kill off the enemy.
I'd like to see it improved but to say "it is the worst tattoo ever" is silly, you just need to use it well, just look at the way Bast has used it for so long, a top 10 character with a JKF, her strategy may have been excellent but it can't be that useless to be in the top 10.

supporter items are no longer filling that role...

the JKF deserves a ranged attack, something particular to it and available no other way...

I agree, the JKF deserves at least a ranged attack. Also, Zog, no offense, but Elven Kings is a low character. From what I hear the JKF will become decreasingly useful. And have you seen Bast's winning percentages? She might certainly be a top 10 character, but she definitely loses so much of her battles. But that doesn't mean her strategy is good. Anyone could have a retarded strategy and would be one of the best with enough EXP and time pumped into it.

And Ranger, the VB is a supporter item, and it is excellent. And what about AoI? It's practically a necessity. TSAs and MgS are also useful forever, and they're supporter items.

I was talking about her old character Bartlett. And no offense back but you don't get it do you?
Only recently have I started playing regularly again and I don't search for higher opponents, just clan members at my score, plus my score is usually around 1.7x my PR and double my MPR, I consider that to be good considering I haven't got a lot of NW especially being well under my WA and haven't done a lot strategy-wise.

In my opinion, a great supporter item is one that can be used by everyone. One that does not drastically change the game and make other items in its class obsolete.

But I will say the VB is useful ONLY for tanks and it nerfs a tattoo by 40%. For those who have played or still play a tank, most believe it is the only melee weapon to use. It is far better than the MH which used to be the king of melee weapons.

There is no counter like that for the ROS or the TOA.

The MgS does counter the IF/SF/FF like the VB does the TOE.

How about the next supporter item nerfs the TOA by 40%? O, my what an uproar we will get from all the tank characters.

The JKF is fine as it is. Great for lower levels, and changeable when one reaches the higher levels. No need for a ranged attack. When it is no longer useful, reink it to another tattoo. A perfect supporter item. Great for all characters, changeable to any other tattoo (aside from the ROE). And it does not make the other tattoos obsolete.

Compare it to the other supporter items:
The VB is a tank only item, not a supporter item if your a mage. It also makes all other melee weapons obsolete.
The MgS is great if you have a wall. But can be used by tanks and mages.
The ROE is great at lower level mostly, great for anyone. A perfect supporter item.
The AOI and AOF are good supporter items. Maybe a bit overpowered but useful for both tanks and mages.
The TSA is a tank item, not great if your a mage. When it first came out, the magic penalty was very low. It was decent for mages/enchanters and tanks. However Jon boosted the magic penalty, therefore removing its effectiveness for all but tanks.

It's like the worst tattoo ever. Its damage is close to NOTHING

I thought the consensus on the worst tattoo/rune was the RoBF. That, of all items, needs an improvement.

As I don't personally own a JKF, I can't say flat out that it needs an improvement. But if you take a look at the Tattoo stats page, it is a good indicator on how many high level tattoos there are (assuming that people would re-ink them, which they do). As there are a few high (1M+), I wouldn't say that JKF needs a boost.

Ok small perspective 435k PR char 310k MPR and a Jigorokano Familiar lvl 369,954

JK
ST 220k
DX 290k

minion: W1
UC 148k(24)
ST 167k
DX 190k

and I am pretty sure W1 has at least twice the HP, but...

When they are both at full capacity (HS and GS) and live to melee W1 does anywhere from about equal to 3 times the damage....

Now I realise that if you considered my level high enough to need to switch Tats then I dd not need to type all of that, but oh well...

I wanted it to work but now even I am thinking of going ToE or ToA...

Ever since I've been here I've heard that the RoBF was the worst tattoo ever ... and I think that the biggest drawback is that it doesn't help you in some fights. All of the other tattoos help in some way or another.

ToA - obviously offensive tattoo .. can be used against any target with great results .. makes your team stronger.. dealing more damage

ToE - defensive tattoo that can reduce damage taken greatly .. even AMF.

JKF/FF/IF/SF - well its a can of instant-minion ... more damage here so its good against anyone ..

RoE - well you get all the bonus here. .. super xp generator.

RoS - defensive tattoo here too .. protects against enemy DM .. boosts the ED trained on the minion wearing the tattoo .. great against any opponent ..

RoBF - well it helps you against Fireball ... and tanks ... kinda ... but here's the problem ... you're expected to invest in a tattoo that has obvious holes ... MM and CoC .. none of the other tattoos put you at such a disadvantage ..

Just a thought ... and if you're planning on the RoBF you better be packing one hefty AMF :P

Zog, apparently you don't get it. I was talking about your character's MPR in the first place. You're saying how the JKF has helped you so much to get you where you are, well, you're not that big of a character. Do you think if you doubled your MPR your JKF would make you successful as you are now? I doubt it. And Ranger, how does that make it a perfect supporter item? All of the previous supporter items aren't only useful in the beginning. They retain their usefulness... forever. And the RoBF may in fact be weaker than the JKF. But then what's the second weakest tattoo? JKF. And when you compare damage to Edyit's tank, a SF of about the same level hits his wall for ~200k. Bast's JKF hits him for like 11k. And that's only after the third round. That shows some unbalance.

With my planned strategy I'm sure it would work for a good while in the future, if it is the surviving minion who wins the battles for me then I see it as at least being a good meatshield for a long while.

no offense Op, but I'll tell you I don't think much of people directly belittling another persons setup or mpr. One of the chars you disparaged is older than your account by years...not months, that's not a failed NCB...no bonus was ever applied. Zog WORKED for that mpr. The JKF is a hedge against GA, Archery, FB, CoC, and simply by existing, boosts your your actual ability to survive a fight. Give it the respect it deserves. Sure it's not the best vehicle to exploit $US, but it does offer a team 4 minions without the xp dillution, and it doesn't explode when it touches AMF like the other familiars.

"All of the previous supporter items aren't only useful in the beginning. They retain their usefulness... forever."

The JKF was the first supporter item. So really, all of the previous items were fairly useless, as they only worked in CB1......... (That's snide humour there)

Around the time when the VB came out (or somewhere like that), Jon quietly changed the concept of a supporter item to be such that it gains usefulness directly proportional to character growth. Previously, a supporter item was one whose usefulness was indirectly proportional to character growth. So, it gave you an edge in the beginning, but forced you to taper off and switch to "common" items as time went on. He basically reasoned that if people are paying good money for an item, its usefulness should not taper.

When Ranger refers to a "true" supporter item, he is referencing the original idea of a supporter item -- get you to a point where you have the cash to buy a real rare using CBD as the supporter item usefulness dwindles. That is no longer the case. The JKF was created under the old ideology.

I can see OpVines a year from now, trying desperately to get his hands on the JF... If anything, look at it this way... There is a guaruntee that there will never be more JF's in the future than there are now. It, and the RoE are the only 2 items in cb that are both, like that, and destroyable by other players. I forsee at some point there will be MAYBE 40 left. But this is down the road. Come on people, have some patience with your 'rare items'. Just my random $0.02

I'd buy it just to store it. And all items can essentially be destroyed by players indirectly if you sell them to the store or auction them to Mr. Chairman.... but yeah, I know that you meant you could ink them away into nonexistence for 400k.

Personally, I like my Kano San. It is a great evasion wall and with the endurance it has, it is also a great meatshield. I use it as such. Whatever damage Kano San actually does is just a bonus for me.

I have a JKF. And Novice, I don't see why you keep trying to participate in arguments today. I didn't state that Zog's MPR isn't big because I wanted to "belittle" his character. I stated it as a response to his saying he's had success with the JKF. I'm saying he's had successful because his character is still relatively small. I made this thread to voice my concern that the JKF isn't receiving the justice it deserves. This is the second time today that I've seen you pick fights where there are none, Novice.

To be perfectly honest, the JKF could use some loving to make it a more...useful...tattoo, but it is fine the way it is if you use it simply as a kill slot.

For example: My JKF can keep my team alive into melee simply because it holds a third kill slot, which means 3 ranged shots. I know I shouldn't be hit in Ranged, but there are ToA tanks who can...and he allows me to stay alive that much longer versus those.

Also, that extra spot is fantastic against FB/MM/CoC because it splits damage further against the first and last and because it offers another kill slot against the second.

You're right, it is no good as a meatshield, but that's not how it should be used, it's just a free kill slot that isn't vulnerable to AMF. That's perfect for making my 3 minion team into a 4 minion team.

However, I would *LOVE* to see it boosted so more people would use it - then perhaps I could find someone to insta mine up to. >_<

And for me, a RoS of the same level would do nothing for me.

Agreed though - some supporter items are absolute staples for a team, and some are just there in case you'd like to work them into your strategy (and then there's the RoBF....) and this is one you can work in.

I'm rambling a bit 'cuz I'm tired and I haven't gotten enough sleep today, but yes. Whatever I said is true and believe it.

BBQ,

A TOE would likely help you more than the JKF.

It would both lower physical and DD damage quite a lot and stop the need for the 4th kill slot.

A ROS would help if you change your protection to an AS and learn protection on your Wall or "Tank".

Where the heck is the sign I keep asking for?
*scrawls "You must be this tall to POST ----- in the general forum" on the wall with a magnum 44 sharpie*

BBQ,

A TOE would likely help you more than the JKF.

It would both lower physical and DD damage quite a lot and stop the need for the 4th kill slot.

A ROS would help if you change your protection to an AS and learn protection on your Wall or "Tank".



--QBRanger, 11:30 PM EST

Actually, a ToE would not reduce enough damage to justify itself. Another kill slot is much more useful to me, as in ranged my Enchanter would still die quickly from the triples/quads hitting him and my Wall would quickly be next to fall. It also delays MM that much longer, which never seems to have a problem breaking through the ToE.

My Protection is only (20), or about 54k, so converting that wouldn't be much - the RoS wouldn't add all that much more HP, and wouldn't add a kill slot, which is what I want. I'd also prefer to avoid learning any ED on my "Tank" so that he can wear a MgS later, and my wall only has so much exp on it for now. It really needs HP, not an ED experience toss. xP

That, and I REALLY love my Gigalo-Kano. He is so sexy.

I bet Bast will keep really, really quiet about this thread...

"Gigalo-Kano"

Best reason to ask for naming of tattoos to carry over to familiars!

Sut, don't forget Dolphin.

But, I'm pretty sure that, they're aware of this stuff, that another Tattoo is better.

(No I haven't read the thread yet.)

Anybody that just picks an item and slaps it on their team - any item - is fooling themselves if they think it will make an immediate difference. The only items that can do that are the ELB, the SoD if you're using ex shot and maybe the ToE if the team is right. Everything else needs some thought before using.

Zog's team for instance does more than alright - best part of 4k clan points most days doesn't indicate a bad strat to me. His team and mine are at a similar level and I can't find enough clan members to achieve 2k clan points a day. The Jig doesn't cut it as a main damage dealer the way a steel or fire familiar can but then maybe that's not the best thing to do with it. The fact that both Bast an Dolphin's teams both do as well as they are tells me there is some worth in the old Jig yet...

And, having just seen the size of the Jig you are disparaging - 100k in level - how on earth did you expect that to make a difference on a team of your size? You needed a tatt of at least 5 times that size on a team the size of yours to see what it could do....

And finally, if you wanted to make the most of the tattoo - which doesn't start attacking until melee - why put it on a team that uses FB? FB is the worst thing to have on a multi minion team that you want to last until melee.

Touche. ^^^^^

Thanks Johnny, I couldn't have agreed more, most days I am regularly well over 3k into a positive net score and never seem to have more than around 500 points taken from me, surely since Johnny and I are near the same level people would also be able to farm me just as much as him? Sorry Johnny ;)
The only real reason that my win percentage is so low is because when my fightlist does get sparse of members I refill it and go through everyone I couldn't beat before to see if I can now, also the times I don't notice that my ammo has run out or that the ranged weapon I rented has been returned.

although I do have MPR to back me up, that is one advantage my character
does have but I wouldn't start shouting that it is the only reason I'm surviving at my level.

ur DX (unlike Johnny's) is too high for me to farm you just yet, zog

And your exp looks far too diluted, at least i've kept the standard tank format with only a small evasion to accompany it to help with ToA tanks.

"Anybody that just picks an item and slaps it on their team - any item - is fooling themselves if they think it will make an immediate difference."

Man, I do that CONSTANTLY

what? Fool yourself constantly? ;)

Hmm...


JKF is fine.

"what? Fool yourself constantly? ;)"

Totally. I constantly add some wonder-drug item that's gonna rock my world... and it never does.

And yes, that's wide open to some very obvious digs :)

Lol!

Johnny, I guess you've made the simple mistake by applying my situation to the general problem. I've never once stated about my JKF in this forum or its affect on my strat. I know what level my JKF is, which is why I'm hiring people to level it. And no, I had no plans to use it with this strat. I plan to use it on my 2 minion UC team when I can save enough money to start a decent NCB.

Also, I want to know why you people keep thinking I'm trying to say Zog's strat isn't effective. It is effective. But in the long run, do you think it will be able to keep its success as long as the JKF keeps growing? I doubt so. And I've talked to Bast about it. She uses the JKF because it has a more sentimental value. It's the largest JKF in the game which means it is completely irreplaceable.

I would actually agree that my strat isn't anywhere near effective, most people around my score are a fair bit lower in MPR than me, although yes it can hold a good score, it isn't like it is dangerously close to my PR that often.

Op...you've owned one all of about two seconds...

I can tell you a half a dozen reasons why for particular setups, the JKF is the BEST tattoo for them...yes even long term. Sure at any time anyone can slap on a ToA or a ToE and with huge NW dominate to an extreme extent. It takes a little more finesse to fight above your pr with a low NW team, and the JKF fits there perfectly. I like the way you backpedaled on half the things you said though...shows character.

novice,

With a mage team you do not need high NW to use a TOE well.. In fact it is the one tattoo I think works best on mage teams due to the decrease in AMF damage you take using it.

Same with a ROS, no need for a heavy NW investment if done right.

At the higher levels of play, the damage capability of tanks and mages far far outstrip the defensive abilities of the JKF. At these levels, it is best to use a tattoo to augment your minions abilities instead of using one basically as a "kill slot".

Heck, done right a familiar can be outstanding, just ask NWO or those SMFB mages that use SFs.

But a JKF is basically a "kill slot" that does hardly any damage.

Ranger, no offense meant, but these kinds of warrantless begging threads are your fault. Your strat grubbing has set an example that leaves us knee deep in this crap and I'm tired of it.

and as to your last set of contentions...
given enchantments designed around exploiting it's capabilities, the JKF is amazing.

What the heck is wrong with all of you!?!

When did a serious thread become a point of backstabbing, name calling, and general immaturity. I know this is the pot calling the kettle black, but at least I recognize my flaws! Most of you would have me believe you are kind and mature!

Get over it if you can't discuss this topic legitimately. Every word on a message is NOT a personal attack on someone, even though it may seem that way.

Frankly, I am disgusted. This is not a personal topic. Try to look at these objectively.

Benefits of the Jig:
Kill Slot.
Takes care of enchanters when not boosted with AS.
Can be melded well with enchantments for greater effect.
Natural endurance.

Disadvantages:
No ranged damage.
Takes up a tattoo slot where other tattoos could go.
Splash damage.

It's opinion based, and it doesn't -need- a boost. It would be nice if it had one, but is it worth a bunch of drama?


Not really.

"Ranger, no offense meant, but these kinds of warrantless begging threads are your fault. Your strat grubbing has set an example that leaves us knee deep in this crap and I'm tired of it."

My god Novice,
These posts have been from well well before I played cb. Well before cb2. If you think I personally am at fault, you are completely misguided and shall I say-Wrong.

Wiith the JKF, please describe in detail how you will use enchantments to boost the"amazing" capabilities of the JKF. I have yet to find a way. More str from Giant Strength? More dex from haste? Sure, so it can do 60k a hit instead of 30k. Big difference at the top levels-no way. What other enchantments will you use?

Let me state my opinion yet again for you.

The JKF is great at the lower levels, but at the higher levels its "amazing" abilities are far surpassed by normal minions and their weapons/DD spells.

I'm rangers god!...wow what a let down.

/me shouts some non-acceptable words...


novice, really, what was the point of that? Off topic and didn't help anything.

For the record though,

A JKF paired in a TTTT team with some protection and small VA doesn't seem that bad. But then... doesn't seem better then RoS.

So maybe enchantments don't help it more then any other tank.

I don't see the Jig as an offensive tattoo, more of a defensive one. It is a kill slot AND trains endurance along with a goodly amount of HP. Put that with some AMF, AS, and PL, and the little sucker is hard to kill while providing dilution the whole while.

I don't disagree that a ToE is powerful as well, but a ToE is not a familiar. That's the offset. Since the ToE has aura, though, it is pretty tough. Back when the ToE had no aura, I kind of thought the Jig was a better choice.

That being said, I don't think the Jig could be merely tweaked to make it better. It would have to be completely overhauled, thereby making it not really a Jig at all. More STR? Still wouldn't be good offense. More dexterity? Still not enough to dodge. A lot more HP and/or endurance? It would still just be a ToE-familiar.

The Jig tries to a lot of different things at once, and that makes folks think it is weak...

simply put, the JKF is the best tattoo for people who have an interest in either;

watching your team not die in ranged, without having a 400k evasion minion

anyone with a desire to have more minions without the xp dillution

dd familiars have no defensive capabilities, none.
the JKF allows for creativity and choice...

Combined with Hate, I'm seeing all the ToA tanks whiffing throughout ranged, while still being able to train Archery and PL on a two minion team...There is NO other tattoo that will allow you to focus XP on fewer than 4 minions while adding such a durable minion. I think with the possibility of being able to at least equip a JKF with HGS, HoE, EBS (or better yet dbs) makes it an attractive tattoo, even in the long run. Bast will be better able to deal with AMF because she has three minions, because of the JKF she doesn't end up suffering at the hands of everyone because of this choice. It allows you to spend less on equipment, and like Bast has done, forgo having a tank entirely in favor of heavy enchantments. Anyone who hasn't fought at that level, really doesn't understand it; and anyone that has is likely capable of saying anything to protect themselves.

that should have been all but the ToA tanks...half true anyway

( A little aside - It wasn't that long ago in a thread about Sut's team and the use of a ToE when it was said that the ToE wasn't too good at higher levels. I think Sut himself said it would be a better tattoo for more minions rather than just the one but....two in the top five at the moment isn't there?)

Anyhow - the Jig. It's jack of all trades master of none quality is IMO it's strength. It does dish out damage - maybe not massive amounts, but you wouldn't use it as your main damage dealer anyway, if you've any sense. But as a back up damage dealer/wall it's pretty good. It can soak up a fair amount of damage, so placing it as defense in front of or behind your main damage dealer can be handy. If you have one huge damage dealer it's a pretty good kill slot, spreading out DD damage across five minions is a good way of reducing mage teams power, and letting you have three enchanters - mentioning it again, but if you want a wall on a budget it's not bad.

If I was given a Jig to use on a team I would make sure that I had other things on the go - it's more of a sidekick than the main man but I wouldn't ever describe it as the worst tattoo ever. RBF gets that one - but a lot of the RBF's problem is that the CBF came before it... Actually I'd use a Jig before an Ice familiar too - to get those to work to the best of their abilities requires a lot more work.

Viva The Jig!!

Come on people! Let's stop the arguing and all 'get jiggy with it.' You don't like the Jig, don't use it. You think it will be your best choice, use it. Simple as that.

when the guy with the ICP icon advocates for harmony...I have to wonder...

Novice,

A very lucid discussion of the JKF. Finally something other than garbage in/garbage out, Ranger sucks type of post.

However, from personal experience, the JKF is just too weak at the top parts of the game.

For a basic simple strategy, one can certainly use a JKF and do ok. But if you want to maximize your potential, one needs to use other tattoos near the top ranks.

What is better in cbland? Boosting a defensive minion, or boosting an offensive minion? I think most people would say the latter. Rather than boosting your JKF for defense, I personally feel it is better to boost your damage dealing capability. Whether it is a TOE to help your tank or mage to deal more damage, or a ROS to get more HP, CB2 is a game of mostly offensive.

However, I would like to see someone, anyone use the JKF to the top ranks and beat the top players. I just do not see it.

HAH I just noticed my "Combined with Hate" instead of Haste...hahahahhah.

but seriously thanks to ya'll for putting up with me...I'm not saying anything I said wasn't true, just that a less internally angry me might not have said it quite like that all those times over and over again in every thread , chat session or cm in the last week or so...I should have posted a PR thread about quitting smoking, and gotten myself a two week forum ban from shade to be safe.

give me a few more months pal, I'm not building this tat for fun...

rofl!

Regardless, the point I was trying to make all along was that JKF needs something changed in order to keep up with the other familiars, since this game's ultimate goal is to be balanced.

What does Maggie think of your internally-mad self?

she, like everyone else is glad I don't smell so bad I'm sure...

just an after thought...and a semi-admittance of my own stupity...

I ended up accidentally going through my fight list without the JKF on last night, because I was insta'ing it up...it only had a mild effect on one or two fights. That is pretty weak considering something like 1/4 of my teams XP is in Haste...

I'm half-converted.

Okay, so does that mean you're for or against changing the JKF so it's better? Your first suggestion was that it receive a ranged attack. So, if you half-converted that means you don't think it should be changed anymore? And maybe some of the people who believe the JKF needs to be changed should CM Jon with their suggestions. I've tried and asked him for his opinions but as usual all I get is ignored.

So what exactly are you looking to get out of making the JKF better? Do you want to beat people higher than your PR/MPR or just make sure you don't get beaten by those close to yours? Is it that they aren't worth the PR that they add? Whats the main point for wanting it changed other than you use it?

As you may or may have not read, I posted my reason for asking that JKF be changed a few posts up. "Regardless, the point I was trying to make all along was that JKF needs something changed in order to keep up with the other familiars, since this game's ultimate goal is to be balanced." Yes, I care about it more since I have one, but regardless, I would have believed it needed to be changed.

balanced doesn't nesssarily mean than all tattoos are equal..at least it's never been that way before. Some tattoos are very specialized, and some are overly general...

The JKF could use something, and I think it's the familiar skill allowing items to be equipped...Jon has already said no promises, but that he was interested. As to my conversion, I could help but think "think thing really does suck" when I figured out what had happened...

I've since found a few additional people I can kill, and decided this tattoo is big enough already...

If it makes ya feel any better Novice, last time you attacked me i didn't have my tattoo on and it didn't make a difference.

If you want to make the JKF better at what it does make its inate endurance higher.

Right now vs Bast's JKF, I do as much damage to it with my MM as I do to her other minions. I do between 500-700k per round vs the familiar and 600-700k vs her first 2 minions.

If the JKF really is to be a hp sink/wall, then it needs a lot more endurance than it currently has at the higher levels.

Of course, one could easily change it to a TOE and make the current minions harder to kill. Or to a ROS, SF/IF/FF etc .. Unlike other red headed stepchild items: like the Bth, ELS, compound bow, and MC which cannot be converted

BoTH does still have the redeeming quality that it is a one-handed weapon and as such has a higher chance-to-hit. Agreed on the others, though.

C'Mon OB,

Most tanks, and I suspect most players, realize the VB is a far superior weapon than the Bth, ELS or BoNe. That 40% off AC/TOE and protection is just too good to pass up. And as an added bonus, the VB is also 1 handed and has a base damage higher then the Bth.

Personally I think the VB is far better than the MH in most cases as well.

Wow. I'm dumb. I always thought the BoTH was better than the VB. X(

Yes Ranger, I *KNOW* the VB is better than the BoTH.

I'm just saying I wouldn't go so far as to call it a red-headed stepchild item. ~_^