Readme.txt for MvT solutions. (in General)


QBOddBird December 16 2006 9:27 PM EST

The most popular issue that I've seen thus far this changemonth is the Mage vs. Tank debate. Generally, the argument is that Tanks have both a place to put all their NW and greater variety, whereas Mages have less variety + greater EXP costs per level for their DD, and thus Mages are at a disadvantage. I propose these solutions:

(1)
Since tanks are increasing their damage greatly via NW, Mages should have a boost in their DD's power as its size increases. A simple way to do this would be to increase the PWR/LVL ratio as the spell increases: a 1M FB does say 300k damage, or 1/3 its level, but a 4M FB does 1.5M damage, a little better than 1/3 its level.

Damage increasing at a higher rate with MPR, on a steeper curve, would cause more powerful spells at the higher ranks, where weapons with large NW investments exist. This allows mages to still fight with their MPR vs. tanks fighting with their NW, but makes the damage a little better in the Mage arena. It would also show a little more reward for the EXP being put in there; as Sutekh has noted, putting tons of experience into his FB is increasing the damage by miniscule amounts. Having a little more obvious boost for the EXP devoted would be nice for them to see.

(2)
Mages also would definitely like somewhere to put their NW: one proposal to this has been an item to reduce AMF's effect. I say not reduce its effect, via the damage % reduction, but simply the backlash effect. Example:

Magician's Robe [0] (+20) removes 20% of the backlash effect. Somewhere to put the NW that pays off, but AMF still does its duty in lowering the mage's power.

(3)
Insofar as variety goes, I offer up this C&P:

1) Keen Swordsmanship. An increase in CTH in exchange for a decrease in damage done. The counterpart to Bloodlust.

2) Double Cast. A skill trained to 10% of the DD in order to cast twice per round, with each casting at 50% of the spell's power.

This would be useful against teams with PL and cases where a minion has very few HP left and you don't want to waste 300k damage killing a minion with 40 HP left. You exchange AMF resistance and some damage for increased damage efficiency.

--OBBQ, November 12 2006 11:12 AM EST


Double Casting would be useful in cases where a minion is killed by the first shot, and the second shot moves to the next minion in line, thus offering more efficient usage of the damage. There'd be a slight increase in AMF vulnerability and a slight decrease in damage, but it offers a second, more concentrated shot for FB/CoC users; and the option to move to the next minion after a kill for MM/Decay users, thus more efficiently using the damage given by the devoted Experience.


Discussion welcome, flames unwelcome.

AdminShade December 16 2006 9:28 PM EST

, whereas Mages have less variety + greater EXP costs per level for their DD

mages need HP + DD spell
tanks need HP ST and DX to hit properly.

Shooto December 16 2006 9:31 PM EST

I've never paid much attention to this but when you get a 2x or 3x hit with a tank, doesn't it focus it on that one minion, whether or not you kill it in the first shot of the round or the third shot of the round?

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] December 16 2006 10:05 PM EST

i think there is also the fact that it is much more possible to netralize tank damage than mage damage, and because of this it balances out.

ResistanZ December 16 2006 10:11 PM EST

Uh, I completely disagree. There's AMF, MgS, TSA. What is there there against tank-specific damage? I can't think of anything besides EC.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 16 2006 10:13 PM EST

EC, evasion, dbs, uc, AoI

Shooto December 16 2006 10:15 PM EST

At the lower to middle ranks, I think mages are just as even as tanks. There is no way to take a mages damage to zero but with a high evasion and some high DB, you can completely neutralize most tanks at this level. I'm using a +100 axbow and hardly get tripple hits in the first round of combat and often miss throughout all three rounds. If mages damage was made dodgeable, I'd have a little more pity for mages.

ResistanZ December 16 2006 10:22 PM EST

Evasion, DBs, AoIs, UC are all situational. They can help sometimes or they can totally fail. It's not a constant thing whereas AMF, MgSs, and TSAs will ALWAYS lower DD damage.

Shooto December 16 2006 10:28 PM EST

Evasion, DBs, AoI are not situational. They will ALWAYS lower the PTH on a weapon, thereby reducing the amount of damage done. Instead of hitting a tripple, it may not miss, but will still go down to a single or a double. There are hardly any tanks not in the top 10 that can always hit for tripples. The single shots done by a tank are not that high. Also, without using explosive shots, a tank cannot hit multiple minions while there are two spells that do that with mages. I can't believe mages still cry about this stuff. Yeah AMF reduces your max damage but DBs and evasion do the same to my tank.

Silatt December 16 2006 10:51 PM EST

And I can't believe tanks still use evasion as a counter for damage reduction. Honestly how often has evasion stopped you from winning a battle, save the recent bug with elbs and archery. Comparing xp to NW is two totally different things. Excuse if I am wrong but I think the original problem was trying to give mages a place to spend NW, not nullify tanks.

Shooto December 16 2006 10:58 PM EST

Evasion has stopped me from winning quite a bit. In ranged, I rarely hit someone with good evasion. I put most of my NW into my ranged weapon so when thats nullified it doesn't really make up for it in melee. Also, when i don't hit in ranged but a mage has 3 guaranteed rounds of attacks hitting, I'm pretty weakened from the start. Add that to a mage wearing an AoI and I have to get through 6 rounds of combat before I can even take a swing at the main damage dealer. By that time, my meat shields are already dead and I'm nearly toast. I either lose or draw because of hitting in the same round.

Silatt December 16 2006 11:09 PM EST

Well you are going to run into that same problem regardless of an AoI or not. I have had +50 evasion before and not really notice any difference with it. It was noticable difference till elbs got fixed and it then just went downhill.

QBOddBird December 16 2006 11:20 PM EST

If you guys would kindly get back on topic...

Shooto December 16 2006 11:22 PM EST

Without seekers, mages can keep their damage dealer around until round 5 with people that use ranged and melee assuming that I kill off one minion on a four minion team per round. Thats 5 shots for a mage to hit me before I can even get off a shot at him. Not all tanks use ELB also. Maybe the issue should be reducing the rediculous damage ELBs do instead of boosting a mage if thats where everyones problem is.

Shooto December 16 2006 11:28 PM EST

Ok more on topic. Sure tanks can pump unlimited damage into their weapons but its never guaranteed to hit. A mage will ALWAYS hit, unless its dead. If you make it so that you can put NW into a mage, you have to make something to be able to slip a spell or have a chance to backfire the spell completely. Also, if you give mages a NW item to pump money into, it has to have high PR value just like going over the WA would do.

Silatt December 17 2006 12:01 AM EST

Yes hopefully I'm still on topic here. Don't forget what good does it do for a mage if they _always_ hit but never do any damage. How often does a tank do 0 damage and inflict backlash on itself? This is easily obtainable for a tank vs a mage with a big AMF. It's not like you can slap a mage in a suit of armor. Not only can tanks pull off high AC, they can totally nullify damage. With it almost required to wear an AGs/CoI for a mage, it's nearly impossible to pull off any AC on a mage, without spending stupid amounts of CB into base leathers and MCMs

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] December 17 2006 12:40 AM EST

axbow, exbow also affects tanks, not to mention AC is stronger vs tanks due to the base only affecting phys

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] December 17 2006 12:56 AM EST

any char vs a mage of anywhere near equal mpr will not reduce a mage to 0 damage, amf = to dd is only .5 amf

TheHatchetman December 17 2006 1:03 AM EST

1m amf vs. 600k DD (these are both after bonuses, figured from a battle versus 'Character Flaw') results in AMF of .70.

While this isn't a total reduction, it still caused a backlash of ~42k damage, and i hit each of his 3 minions for under 9k damage. This is with a 550k ToE equipped to my mage as well...

Not sure if this helped, or added fuel to the fire, or was pointless. But I figured I'd throw it out there.

But none of this has anything to do with how tanks can pump nw, and mages can't... So, I'm done.

Forge December 17 2006 7:37 AM EST

No offense, but this is the same topic everyone else has made over the past month or so. This is getting to be overkill at best.

QBOddBird December 17 2006 9:41 AM EST

Sorry about that, Forge - the idea was to throw suggestions about how to COPE with the MvT problem that's been bombarding forums lately, but it just turns into yet another discussion about the problem that already exists. =\

ResistanZ December 17 2006 10:49 AM EST

If everyone is making these types of threads then that must mean it's in the general consensus that something has to change, right?

Shooto December 17 2006 12:41 PM EST

No, the problem is a couple mages are making posts about it. The same people bring up the same topics. When things need to change, Jon will change them.

QBOddBird December 17 2006 1:12 PM EST

Which thread was made by a mage? The last two I've seen, by Oleander and I, were made by tank-based teams.

Also, I think I've given up on the idea of my thread staying on topic, or any constructive criticism coming from it. All I see people spewing is more discussion about whether mages are weaker and if something needs to change.

If an admin would close this thread, that'd be great, because it isn't going where I wanted it to.

Forge December 17 2006 1:41 PM EST

With regard to the original topic, personally I like the idea behind option 3 best: more variety. While it's not a terribly new idea, a drain spell might be interesting and give mages a better shot. Chain lightning has been discussed repeatedly. A spell that deals more damage to opponents with higher AC (or some other stat) might be fun as well.

Hijacking the topic for a moment, I'd like to see some different types of weapons as well. Yes, there are a lot of weapons in CB but only two primary types, melee and ranged, with only a few special features on a few (drain and vorpal effects are the only ones that come to mind). Someone a while back suggest spear-type weapons that pierce through to following minions for a percentage of the damage, which I thought was a great idea.

Anyways, as I see it with more variety comes more strategies and most likely counters to the current state of affairs, so maybe there's a solution to the problem in there.

AdminNightStrike December 17 2006 9:56 PM EST

mages need HP + DD spell
tanks need HP ST and DX to hit properly.

M.HP + DD >> T.HP + ST + DX
DD >> ST + DX
M.HP > T.HP

AdminNightStrike December 17 2006 10:09 PM EST

Mages should have a boost in their DD's power as its size increases.



This is already the case. For CoC, for instance, the damage starts out as 31.67% of spell level. It asymptotically increases towards 95% of spell level as spell level increases.

QBOddBird December 17 2006 11:25 PM EST

....and levels out there. Jonathan made that change so that it affects lower size DD spells - but it quickly rises and levels out. I'm talking about a much broader curve covering the entire growth chart for a DD spell.

noneedforthese December 18 2006 3:19 AM EST

I like all of BBQ's ideas, because I think it would still keep balance in the game. What I really, really like is idea (3)2), coz I'm DYING to see a tailor-made mage skill... and as for (3)1), don't tanks have enough variety as it is? ;)

Oh, and as far as the phallic measurement contest goes, I think it's about time everyone just admitted that they'll never change their stance regardless of whether there are 2 or 2,000,000 anecdotal and common sensical evidence being presented. We as human beings just can't look at things from an objective point of view (which includes me btw) when we have any vested interest in being stubborn, and I applaud BBQ for making a thread that supports mages even though BBQ's minion is tank-based.
Cheers.

(putting on a rune of balrog flame to protect me from the flame... err... it's not that helpful is it)


AdminNightStrike December 18 2006 5:27 PM EST

"Oh, and as far as the phallic measurement contest goes"

What in the world are you talking about?

noneedforthese December 18 2006 7:04 PM EST

substitute 'ic' for 'us' for clarity

QBOddBird December 19 2006 12:03 AM EST

Agreed.

And I included both a suggestion for tanks and for mages because, well, it would give tanks an alternative to Archery/BL. Nothing necessary, but more options are always nice ^_^

velvetpickle December 19 2006 10:37 AM EST

Hubbell (GDI) defeated valenvail after 4 rounds of combat

Physical

valenvail
Ranged Hits / Shots / Avg Damage 0 / 3 / 0 0 / 0 / 0
Melee Hits / Blows / Avg Damage 0 / 0 / 0 0 / 0 / 0

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can see what you mean about mages being completly defenseless against tanks. I mean tanks do have that super secret enchantment that allows us to spend a little bit of exp., and allows us to completly avoid being touched by your DD no matter how high you train it.

Jon GAVE you evasion. If you choose not to use it, and / or pump some NW into DB's than you are the only one to blame.

Not sure how much Exp Hubble had to train to COMPLETLY NULLIFY 1mil+ Str & Dex, the PTH from a level 1.7mil Toa, and +55 ELB, but however much it was it still left him enough exp to do over 3.9million damage to my team in 4 rounds of combat. I would say that is a pretty competent mage strat vs. tanks.

Keep turing a blind eye to mages that have no problem getting around in "the world of tanks" and whining about changes in thread after countless thread b/c it is doing a lot of good.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 19 2006 11:02 AM EST

doesn't hubbel have about a 50% mpr advantage over val? he's at about 1.9 million while you are at over 1.3 million.

when i trained evasion on heat i had all these tanks half my mpr coming out of the woodwork saying evasion is overpowered because they couldn't hit me anymore. they did seem to think it quite fair though that previously they could beat me....oh the irony!

horseguy001 December 19 2006 11:46 AM EST

I think I agree with Velvetpickle here, I think mages have a big out over tanks that they could invest money into.

Looking at the average NW of and ELB and a MH there is about 25 mil NW invested over two items. A mage investing that into a pair of DB could take them to +104 and have 8 mil left over, or take them as high as that 8 mil would go (hehe blank table so I don't know :D). Combine that with a strong evasion and in *melee* you are looking at a PTH reduction approaching, if not passing, the 200 range, and well over 300 in ranged combat.

If a tank is capable of hitting that then you are dealing with NW that is in the rediculous range, so of course it is going to seem broken. Imagine if you pumped that kind of investment into evasion/DB, you would have equally rediculous results.

I know tanks have more counters to mages, but we still can't *nullify* all of your trained exp, whereas mages do have the *ability*, whether they choose to use it or not, to nullify most, if not all, of a tanks NW.

Now the issue seems to be exp getting to expensive versus a tanks damage, however, when dealing with pth it works the exact same way. Each + is marginally more expensive then the last one, so a mage can continue to pump evasion, and invest more money into DB, in order to veto that cheap x upgrade. I could have a x azillion (pardon the term :D) MH, but if I stumble at my oppenent what good does it do me?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 19 2006 12:32 PM EST

evasion is available to all characters. mages use it more because that is about the only skill that is useful to us. i think that is the crux of the matter here, many of us just want some kind of variety. tanks could use it as well, they have better choices perhaps, but they do have those choices after all.

QBOddBird December 19 2006 1:02 PM EST

a) You aren't on topic.

b) Evasion is available to EVERYONE.

c) The more EXP mages divert to Evasion, the weaker their spell, and the lower their damage + more vulnerable to AMF.

d) That's still just ONE option.

e) Tanks can *still* combat even that with NW. All they have to do is pump the +.

f) Don't try to say mages are powerful because you went up against the biggest FB in the game and lost, despite having your -600k MPR advantage.

g) You aren't on topic.

horseguy001 December 19 2006 1:40 PM EST

We only have to pump the +? You make it sound so easy. The + is expensive! My VB is +75, to get it there from +40 has cost me over $5mil, which is nullified by an ~8 mil pair of DB, or an evasion lvl of around ~400k, both of which are easily obtainable.

I know evasion and DB are available to everyone, but clearly mages benefit from their use more then a tank would. A tank would have to give up BL or archery, significantly hurting their damage output. True, training evasion does take out of a mages DD, but nowhere near a level that destroys their strategy.

Who cares if its one option? I have a low NW tank team...the only option for me is to dump more cash into my VB, or shell out some major cash for a big elbow. Is that unfair? Should low NW tank teams get to compete with high NW ones for the sake of fairness?

This whole debacle is merely the USD > all debate in another form. You ask for something for mages to invest in, well they can invest heavily in a big pair of DB to protect themselves from big weapons, and give up some DD for evasion.

What you are asking is essentially this: being able to take a stock Cavalier, dump 20 Gs under the hood (low NW mage team) and expect it to go toe to toe with a high end Race car (high NW tank team). It's not going to happen. However, mages can invest heavily in items to protect themselves, *because* they don't have to worry about keeping up their weapons.

Also, training DD at higher levels still increases it's damage, albiet not as much, but it still does give a damage increase. You argue as if the damage increase is so completely negligible it's uneconomical to train more, then you turn around and say training evasion detracts form a mages DD.

Sorry, but ya can't have it both ways.

When mage teams start shelling out some bucks to match the NW of a tank team and they still get spanked, then there is a problem.

QBOddBird December 19 2006 1:58 PM EST

"We only have to pump the +? You make it sound so easy. The + is expensive! My VB is +75, to get it there from +40 has cost me over $5mil, which is nullified by an ~8 mil pair of DB, or an evasion lvl of around ~400k, both of which are easily obtainable."

The point is that you have the option to raise the +, as well as being able to upgrade the + on Ammo and use a ToA for extra PTH. The inherent 1.2M levels of Evasion I've got with my UC during ranged, even with bonuses, can't stop some ToA users - that's not wrong, of course, they should be able to - but you do see that you can push through that Evasion/DB barrier, don't you?


I know evasion and DB are available to everyone, but clearly mages benefit from their use more then a tank would. A tank would have to give up BL or archery, significantly hurting their damage output. True, training evasion does take out of a mages DD, but nowhere near a level that destroys their strategy.

"Right, sure a tank benefits more. Tanks lose damage output by losing BL or Archery, but Mages lose damage output by having to train less DD *and* they become more vulnerable to AMF. And if you think it isn't near a level that destroys their strategy, just ask Ranger what a time he had trying to balance out his Evasion and his DD back when he was first putting Evasion on there."

"Who cares if its one option? I have a low NW tank team...the only option for me is to dump more cash into my VB, or shell out some major cash for a big elbow. Is that unfair? Should low NW tank teams get to compete with high NW ones for the sake of fairness?"

You have the option to: Use any number of weapons, melee or ranged, use multiple different armors (heavy tank, light tank, mage resistant, STR based, DX based, etc) whilst mages have few options; you have tons of skills and all of the EDs benefit you. Tell me what good GS does for a mage. And of course low NW tank teams shouldn't compete with high NW ones for the sake of fairness - but mages can only put their money in one place. Very small damage boost, no AMF resisting, and an Evasion that will *never* match their opponents DX.

By saying "who cares if it is one option?" you say, "tanks are obviously the choice if you want to have any fun. Who cares if mages are boring? What's it matter if you wanted to be a mage and play with your strategy, even though you really can't?

"This whole debacle is merely the USD > all debate in another form. You ask for something for mages to invest in, well they can invest heavily in a big pair of DB to protect themselves from big weapons, and give up some DD for evasion."

Wooo....they can get DBs. Alriiiight. Feel the excitement?

"What you are asking is essentially this: being able to take a stock Cavalier, dump 20 Gs under the hood (low NW mage team) and expect it to go toe to toe with a high end Race car (high NW tank team). It's not going to happen. However, mages can invest heavily in items to protect themselves, *because* they don't have to worry about keeping up their weapons."

You are absolutely right, because mages are the stock Cavaliers of this game and tanks are the racecars. I don't think THAT is fair.

"Also, training DD at higher levels still increases it's damage, albiet not as much, but it still does give a damage increase. You argue as if the damage increase is so completely negligible it's uneconomical to train more, then you turn around and say training evasion detracts form a mages DD."

Have you noticed the difference in 16 exp/point vs. 11-12 exp/point? It adds up pretty quick.


"When mage teams start shelling out some bucks to match the NW of a tank team and they still get spanked, then there is a problem."

Absolutely. So why not let them have that option?

noneedforthese December 19 2006 2:39 PM EST

"Also, I think I've given up on the idea of my thread staying on topic, or any constructive criticism coming from it. All I see people spewing is more discussion about whether mages are weaker and if something needs to change.

If an admin would close this thread, that'd be great, because it isn't going where I wanted it to."

INdeed... just thought I'd like people to read that again ;)
It would be fantastic if we could stay on the topic rather than continue to give anecdotal evidence as solid proof...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 19 2006 2:46 PM EST

this horse has been dead for three change months people...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 19 2006 6:30 PM EST

" know evasion and DB are available to everyone, but clearly mages benefit from their use more then a tank would. A tank would have to give up BL or archery, significantly hurting their damage output. True, training evasion does take out of a mages DD, but nowhere near a level that destroys their strategy."

I'd just like to offer this opinion.

Have a Tank. Train Evasion instead of BL/Archery, to, with your natural Dex for being a tank, stop other tanks hitting you.

Wear a TSA (Great for tanks, more STR!) and a MgS (Which Mages *can't* wear) to stop Mages.

40% off your DD (With a nice sized MgS), no matter how much XP you spend on it. Plus the TSA reduction.

Best of both worlds. I wonder if someone could make this work? ;)

Shooto December 19 2006 6:38 PM EST

GL - I don't think that strat would work too well. The amount of BL or archery trained on minions is usually very small. Couple that with the lack of a ToA and the Dex + evasion dex wouldn't offer enough to stop tanks from hitting you.

horseguy001 December 19 2006 6:40 PM EST

This is clearly one of those topics where we could exchange rebuttals forever.

I understand what what you are saying, put simply:

1. Tanks get exp and money to increase power, Mages only get exp
2. Exp costs rise the more something is trained whereas damage costs do not
3. This makes mages unable to keep up with the damage output of tanks
4. so mages are inferior to tanks

I don't agree with premise 1 since there are items mages can pour NW into, I think 2 is misleading since pth gets more expensive with upgrades, in 3 I think mages can keep up as far as eliminating damage goes, which leads me to disagree with 4. No use arguing anymore, since I obviously won't sway your opinion, nor will you sway mine :D

a good ol' fashioned agree to disagree :D

QBOddBird December 19 2006 6:48 PM EST

Shooto - it actually would work quite well, and does. Hence my UC tank dodging other tanks...

Horseguy - an agreement to disagree is most definitely the only conclusion to our viewpoints. =)


Now maybe we can get back on topic - which is discussing whether or not these are effective solutions to the problem that *I* feel exists - if you don't think there's a problem to be solved, then just don't post.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 20 2006 3:04 AM EST

:) Seems to be working fine for me Shooto. ;) hen renting a larger wepaon I was at nearly 1 Mil score for just under 300K PR. ;) I've now dropped to 700-750K score for 300K PR becuase I'm working on my own weapon (which is under my WA, so I'm not getting most effect from it).

Mages hurt, becuase my MgS isn't large enough yet. But I eat most tanks.

Especially UC teams. They usually go to stalementes though. My PTH isn't high enough to counter thier natural evasion.

But all my problems can be solved with cash.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 20 2006 3:46 AM EST

Horse,

"I think 2 is misleading since pth gets more expensive with upgrades,"

Everyone should ignore pth and multiple hits per round, when discussion Tank balance to Mage.

We have no idea how many hits per round Jon has based the balance on.

It could be balanced at DD = 50% base chance to hit with one physical attack per round.

It could be DD = Three physical hits per round.

Until we know the benchmark here, we can't possible use multiple attacks (Which is really all pth provides) in any form of arguement.

Adminedyit December 20 2006 5:37 AM EST

GL the evasion tank with the TSA/MgS was done already by PitSpawn.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 20 2006 6:14 AM EST

;) I'm not claiming to be innovative here! :P

horseguy001 December 20 2006 8:07 AM EST

I was just basing that off of this:

Evasion above an opponents' plus-to-hit (from weapon enchantments or Tattoo of Augmentation) will reduce dexterity-based chance-to-hit.

Guess I was mistaken in how much that actually matters :D

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 20 2006 8:15 AM EST

:P That was really useful. Until I found out that EC reduces Evasion! ;)

QBsutekh137 December 20 2006 11:01 AM EST

I haven't read all of this, but wanted to make one (long) comment:

Horseguy, no, training my DD is not "negligible", but it is 7% more expensive to do so than for any other person in this game, any stat, and there is no tattoo or enchantment to help increase my DD. That sucks. Do you know how long it is going to take tanks to get to a point where they need to spend 16 exp per level on STR and/or DEX? Meanwhile, their ToAs grow in what seems to be a fairly linear fashion -- continuing to grow STR/DEX while my only option is to inefficiently spend MPR on an offense that:

-- cannot be augmented by a tattoo.
-- cannot be augmented by enchantments.
-- can be foiled by a specific opposing enchantment that not only reduces my damage, but makes me hurt myself. (an enchantment that costs 7% or 15% less than pumping my DD costs).
-- can no longer be augmented by NW (once AGs and CoI are topped out), and can NEVER be augmented by net worth in a linear fashion.
-- has two items against it meant to directly reduce magic damage (TSA and MgS).

Meanwhile, tanks have this relation to the preceding points:

-- can be augmented by a tattoo.
-- can be augmented by other enchantments.
-- can be foiled by an enchantment that saps STR and DEX, but they never hurt themselves.
-- can have STR and DEX reduced by specialty xbows (but that only applies to other tanks, a mage could never sap a tank in that way).
-- can be augmented by NW, in a linear fashion, no less!
-- have a plethora of items that can be augmented by NW, on both offense and defense.
-- have no specific items meant to foil their damage.

It's all about damage. I'm not talking about defense, because that is pretty even (anyone can build a wall, use a ToE, use an RoS, etc.) But on the offensive front, basically, my team is done. I will never have much greater damage output, other than having my SF grow and slowly growing my DD at 16 experience per level. I can probably eke out another 4-5% from AGs and CoI, and then what? Meanwhile, tanks are having their ToAs grow, they are linearly pumping weapon damage with net worth, they are augmenting themselves with enchantments, and are gearing up with specific items that reduce my damage even further.

Yeah, mages _clearly_ have all the balance in their favor! And when you are done smoking whatever you are high on, please pass it over to me. I need it for pain reduction, as I can't seem to give over to the hallucinations or euphoria any more...there's just nothing there.

Tezmac December 20 2006 11:13 AM EST

I'm with you on your entire post Sut, except for this one point: "Tanks...have no specific items meant to foil their damage."

I think everyone kind of forgets (unless something has changed) that the base AC on your equipment only counts toward physical damage. In my case, I have 340 AC when I take tank damage vs 236 AC against mage damage. Of course, this is only a small difference when compared to the effect a TSA or MgS can have...

QBsutekh137 December 20 2006 11:27 AM EST

Totally agree, Tezmac... I should have made clear I meant items specific to be against magic. My magic does get to make all base AC useless, which is nice. However, some of the big teams with large walls and ToEs take my 1.5 million damage fireball and reduce it to the 50K-100K damage range. That's getting close to 95% damage reduction. Might as well be 100% at that point, especially for wall/tanks using VA in some fashion.

The reason that happens is because the TSA/MgS reduction is a separate layer in the Prot, ToE, AC reduction cycle. There is no item that adds a layer to stopping physical damage, and the layering is where the big reduction comes from. If the TSA and MgS just added a bit to AC, they would not be so nearly as effective as they are when applied as part of iterative reductions. I think the ToE is the lynch-pin there, as it is the reduction that is the most step-wise in nature: if you overwhelm it, you can REALLY overwhelm it. But if you don't, it is really going to knock the crap out of your damage. You should see how pathetic my damage is when I fight Critters...I'd laugh if I weren't crying so hard... *smile*

QBsutekh137 December 20 2006 11:41 AM EST

And I apologize for my dour tone, but I also am in the unenviable position of being right outside the Top Ten scorers most of the time, meaning my rewards are, frankly, crapola (I am not the only one, I am just the most vocal of the bunch *smile*). The new battle stats just make the point that much clearer. All of my challenge factors are negative, and there are no more targets for me. Meanwhile, the Top Ten gets to beat me up all they want, not having to face any reward reduction. Granted, rewards in the Top Ten aren't that hot either, but at least they are exempt from a negative challenge bonus.

One might could look at my net worth and say, "Well, duh, Sutekh! You didn't spend any money, USD or otherwise!" But I did, actually. I spent around 25 million on BA throughout my NCB, and then spend 28 million on a second minion. In other words, I spent 53 million on MPR.

If the fact of the matter is simply that money spent on MPR is money badly spent, then fine -- but I would like someone to specifically tell me that. Tell me that investing in MPR is a fool's game and will remain a fool's game. Then I can quit and not worry about it. But I have to think that MPR must mean _something_ at some point. The saddest part is that even if I spent another 60 million on two more minions, I doubt I would be able to add any positive challenge-bonus targets to my fight list, though I might actually at least be able to get into the Top Ten. There is simply nothing I could invest that additional MPR into to aid my offense, and the only defense it would gain me is two more kill slots and some sort of enchantments (more DM? weak EC/AMF? Gah).

horseguy001 December 20 2006 11:58 AM EST

"Yeah, mages _clearly_ have all the balance in their favor! And when you are done smoking whatever you are high on, please pass it over to me. I need it for pain reduction, as I can't seem to give over to the hallucinations or euphoria any more...there's just nothing there."

Now why'd you have to go and say that? I didn't flame anyone, and I feel my points are valid enough to not warrant knocking my state of mind. Yes, *damage* is linear, but if a tank can't hit you what good is it? Where would you be right now if you spent 60 mil on a pair of DB? Thats all I am saying, I don't think it's any less sound then the other side, on the same token I don't think I am any more right either.

Your team is in a situation where you *don't* have a good defense, you are built around FB, and you only have two minions in a game where multi minion teams are clearly favoured.

I don't make the rules, I play by them. Maybe it is *you* that made the bad strategy choice, since you have nowhere to invest NW, since clearly MPR becomes irrelevent at a certain level of the game. I have not been around here for very long, but I do understand that game dynamic quite clearly.

My NCB may not be great now, but I will have 4 minions to invest NW into, when MPR hits a point that makes little difference.

geez, elitist :P

Tezmac December 20 2006 12:09 PM EST

"And I apologize for my dour tone, but I also am in the unenviable position of being right outside the Top Ten scorers most of the time, meaning my rewards are, frankly, crapola (I am not the only one, I am just the most vocal of the bunch *smile*). The new battle stats just make the point that much clearer. All of my challenge factors are negative, and there are no more targets for me. Meanwhile, the Top Ten gets to beat me up all they want, not having to face any reward reduction. Granted, rewards in the Top Ten aren't that hot either, but at least they are exempt from a negative challenge bonus."

I feel your pain. Watching those negative bonuses is painful when I right on the cusp of the top 10, especially since they're fighting the same people I am. Guess I only need to spend a few hundred USD to catch up right? :O)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 20 2006 12:34 PM EST

I'm highly in favor of either a removal of the exception, or extending it to the top 20...

ranks 11-20 are the folks who need that exemption the most...

QBJohnnywas December 20 2006 1:00 PM EST

My esteemed clanmate Horseguy gets to the heart of the problem. It is not tank vs mage that is the problem. It is MPR vs NW.

Sut's FB has hit a point where it's growth has slowed right down due to the cost in xp terms of increasing it. The same thing is going to happen to all enchantments, stats and skills eventually. The only thing that will be growing will be NW. And eventually armours and weapon PTH starts to get into excessive cost. The only things still growing will be tattoos and weapon damage, at least so you can see the growth.

What do we do then?

QBsutekh137 December 20 2006 1:25 PM EST

Horseguy,

You state:

"I don't make the rules, I play by them. Maybe it is *you* that made the bad strategy choice, since you have nowhere to invest NW, since clearly MPR becomes irrelevant at a certain level of the game. I have not been around here for very long, but I do understand that game dynamic quite clearly. "

So, you are basically confirming that we all have to eventually become tanks or heavily defensive teams if we hope to crack the Top Ten? And you are OK with that? I would be OK with that too if Jonathan would just put "Don't be stupid, be a tank or massively defensive team (or both) if you want to crack the Top Ten." in the Wiki.

It's bad enough that a team almost HAS to have a wall to be in the Top Ten (Ranger has been saying that for a while), but it is even worse that pure magic offense quickly becomes useless. I wanted to show that such intense defense was not needed and/or that an all-out MPR-based mage could cut it in the Top Ten when I started my NCB. I was wrong on both counts, and that seems wrong to me. The more things a team "has" to have to compete in the Top Ten (where that wonderful exemption resides) means less and less choice overall.

I didn't mean my drug comment as a barb towards you, so I apologize if that came off as a flame...

horseguy001 December 20 2006 1:37 PM EST

Now, the only reason you need these things (wall + big weapon) in the top 10 is because they are effective. If no one else was running them then you wouldn't need them. However, they give an edge, so that is why they are there.

You need to be pretty active to be in the top 10 as well, wouldn't you agree? Lets give a boost to players who are not as active, or maybe I should start a strat to see if I can crack the top 10 without playing all that much.

oh, and BTW

- NWO is ranked 7th
- Magic is primary offense
- No wall, highest AC is 110

good day to you sir.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 20 2006 1:39 PM EST

PoisoN has neither wall nor tank...he's also a lower NW team than most of the rest of the top, yet his setup is THE mage team to beat now for most people with sensible goals. MPR matters, just not as much as some of us would like. Kill slots, GA, DR, and PTh are the stuff the top is made of now, offensive magical power would require an AMF reduction item to be allowed to play. Give us familiar item equipping, and a mage helm with some sort of AMF blowback reduction in trade for NW and call it good.

QBsutekh137 December 20 2006 2:25 PM EST

Agreed, NWO is effective. I use NWO as my test case for why lesser-minioned teams need more love. *smile*

AdminNightStrike December 20 2006 2:50 PM EST

"If the fact of the matter is simply that money spent on MPR is money badly spent, then fine -- but I would like someone to specifically tell me that. Tell me that investing in MPR is a fool's game and will remain a fool's game. Then I can quit and not worry about it. But I have to think that MPR must mean _something_ at some point."

Money spent on MPR is money badly spent.

Investing in MPR is a fool's game and will remain a fool's game.

QBsutekh137 December 20 2006 3:01 PM EST

I love you, man. *smile*

AdminNightStrike December 20 2006 3:07 PM EST

"Sut's FB has hit a point where it's growth has slowed right down due to the cost in xp terms of increasing it. The same thing is going to happen to all enchantments, stats and skills eventually. The only thing that will be growing will be NW. And eventually armours and weapon PTH starts to get into excessive cost. The only things still growing will be tattoos and weapon damage, at least so you can see the growth.

What do we do then?"


Every MMORPG has the same problem -- growth towards infinity and ultimate stagnation. There are two options -- have regular resets (which is essentially what tournaments are), or let the game die out. CB is not a game that can be easily reset, so it will eventually die out.

If you track the number of active weekly players based on the community page, it has been steadily decreasing to the low 400-450 range since the linear weapon change and the free retrain week. What this means is that the attrition rate is too high, and new payers are too few. The linear weapon damage model has a lot to do with this for the simple fact it makes the growth towards infinity stated earlier hit a massive fast track.

When comparing character growth, what matters most is how the character's damage grows as you extend character growth towards infinity. The growth of sut in terms of damage output is slower than the growth of any tank's damage output for any large time t. So, given enough time, there is nothing that sut can do to stop any tank from outpacing his damage. Everything that various people suggest, including horseguy with his DB idea, only delays the inevitable demise of any non-tank team. As I've said so many times before, what do you do when your band-aid options run out?

Using horseguy's example of displacement boots... If sut drops 60m into a new pair, let's say for the sake of argument that they let him win a few more battles. Those wins are only temporary, as the tank damage, though highly reduced at this point, will still grow faster than the mage damage. What does sut do when he can no longer invest in DBs, as they are just as expensive as AGs or CoI? When items get into the billion dollar range for upgrades, you really can't add anymore to them. Look at the +20 and +21 for AG that I put into the wiki. Do you really think that anyone can get to +22? I couldn't even do it, and I have about $200m in cash. See, those are not linear upgrades, so eventually, they stop dead when the curve becomes insurmountable (just like Protection at level 33 -- no one will ever make it to 34 in our lifetime).

So the point is that even DBs are just a temporary fix that don't address the underlying issue that the tank's damage keeps on growing and will never stop, and that it grows faster than sut's damage. Anytime you talk about other, temporary fixes, you aren't addressing the real issue.

Let's get back to the real issue -- how do you make sut's damage output grow equal to or faster than a tank's? Not "how do you slow a tank's damage," or "how do you increase defense;" -- How do you make sut's offense grow faster than it currently does?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 20 2006 3:30 PM EST

Simple. ;) Drop the extra second minion and the SF, and go back to using a RoE.

That's the fastest way to grow a DD possible. :P

But that too is a cap.

Weapon 'x' is unlimited.

;)

QBsutekh137 December 20 2006 4:39 PM EST

And that wouldn't work worth a crap, GL. *smile* Without a second minion to hold my tattoo and allow the use of a CoI, there goes my damage output, down down down. There goes my fightlist, there goes my ability to get rewards, even with an RoE.

This sword really has two edges. The only way to really make MPR effective (pure MPR, no tattoos, so no ToE or RoS) is to concentrate it. It helps DD, it helps Evasion, etc. But the more concentrated you get, the fewer minions you can have, and I think just about everyone concedes that lesser-minion teams don't have much going for them (even horseguy said that).

Net worth works because it can be concentrated, even with four minions.

AdminNightStrike December 20 2006 4:58 PM EST

Actually, that idea might have a slim chance of working. Your CoI boosts damage, but as a fixed percentage. The RoE would help you grow by what, 23% if it's named?

For every 16 XP (or 1 level), you get 20XP. With a CoI +20, you get 1.2 level for every level. Taking the least common denominator, that means that:

Roe:
80XP - 5 level
+23% XP - 99 XP - 7 level

CoI:
80 XP - 5 level
+20% level - 6 level

So really, the RoE gives you an extra level for every 80 XP than the CoI at +20 would. So that would actually help you grow slightly faster.

What you need to do is find out how much a tank increases damage output on average for every dollar spent.

QBsutekh137 December 20 2006 5:55 PM EST

NS, you are forgetting that without the second minion and without an SF my fight list would be gone, but my PR wouldn't be low enough to find targets. I compared the SF to RoE a long time ago, and it was a wash. Though, might be worth revisiting now that challenge bonus is visible...

AdminNightStrike December 20 2006 5:59 PM EST

The PR drop when switching from a maxed tattoo at your level to an RoE will be huge. Also, I didn't say anything about dropping your other minion. That'd be stupid.

I don't care about how much XP your DD minion gets. I care about how much damage results from that XP. There's a big difference.

horseguy001 December 20 2006 10:44 PM EST

Well I'm not posting my points any more, but I do have a question or two:

Basing my opinion off of NWO's team performance (relativly low NW top 10 mage team), what effect do you honestly believe strengthening mages to compete with NW would have on game dynamics? Do you honestly believe it would add variety?

Do you not think that it would create a scenerio like this: be a great team invested in NW, or be a great team invested in magic (put simply of course). Which strategy do you think most players would choose? The one that takes time and money, or the one that only takes time?

AdminNightStrike December 20 2006 10:52 PM EST

Since currently, there is a lack of variety (as time increases, tank damage will outpace mage damage), adding the choice you mention will surely add variety. We will go from one choice to two.

QBsutekh137 December 20 2006 11:10 PM EST

NS, my SF makes all the difference. It is a familiar, it is offense, and it attacks from the back. Without it, my list goes poof, and if you think there are a lot of other targets I could find, I am fairly certain you would be incorrect.

And since when does growing a tattoo not count? The bigger tattoos on other teams are my greatest bane right now...

horseguy001 December 20 2006 11:13 PM EST

Read my second question more carefully, I know which one I would play to compete and have a good team.

Unless you actually don't see a problem there, in which case I will never visit a thread like this again.

noneedforthese December 21 2006 12:35 AM EST

I think mages want
1) more variety, not _strictly_ more power
2) avoid stagnation (sutekh)

And we can achieve both by the numerous good suggestions made already. Nothing EARTHSHATTERING will happen from these harmless suggestions, they'll just add more interesting strategies to try out, and MAYBE one cool trinket to wear. We have to remember that whatever new comes in replaces the old thing, so the xp/cash/item drawn away from that spot has to be h@>< for it to alter the game's power structure...
well that's what I think anyway...
BBQ, the more I read (3)2), the more I like it! spending extra xp to lower your DD damage but make it more versatile - seriously, will that suddenly make my missiles beat 2mil PR tanks?!?

AdminNightStrike December 21 2006 5:48 AM EST

"Read my second question more carefully, I know which one I would play to compete and have a good team. "

Your second question forces an answer between choices that are invalid. The real choices are between less time / more money and more time / less money. Some people don't have the time to click a billion times a day. Others don't have the cash to pony up and buy things. Either way, both variants require time AND money.

horseguy001 December 21 2006 6:18 AM EST

Fair enough, personally I am of the opinion there would be no point to playing a high NW team because you could be just as competitive at a fraction of the cost. I think that would hurt variety, but like I said it's just my opinion :D

AdminNightStrike December 21 2006 8:05 AM EST

It's not a fraction of the cost if you value your time. Fighting 1008 + 503 battles a day is hard and takes a much larger effort than, say, 640 + 508 battles.

QBOddBird December 21 2006 4:34 PM EST

"BBQ, the more I read (3)2), the more I like it! spending extra xp to lower your DD damage but make it more versatile - seriously, will that suddenly make my missiles beat 2mil PR tanks?!? "

Thanks!

But seriously, it would help eat away at multi-minion teams faster - which is GOOD for single mage teams and for mages in general, but especially so for fewer minion teams who need to get through those kill slots quickly.
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