Free Untraining... (in General)

Tezmac January 5 2007 2:44 PM EST

Am I the only one here that's upset that this seems to be a new trend? Back on CB1 and now on CB2 I've always tried to keep my team somewhat balanced so that come change month, I wouldn't get hosed as much as those with biased strats. Part of the game for me seemed to be longevity; how long your team could stay at the top and endure the changes to the game. Now that Jon seems to be allowing this free retrain every 3 months or so, it seems that this is a pointless path for me to take and has robbed the game of some of its strategic aspects as one can just change their strat almost entirely every 3 months. Just accumulate as much MPR as you can without having to worry all that much about the long term, as well, you can just change it up less than a few months down the road.

Gandalf January 5 2007 2:48 PM EST

tezmac i think jon's making a change like a strat change im not sure though... so from this change it might favour in one way or another making a free untrain makes them take advantage of the change or else why make it? Thats my opinion , if im wrong people just say. =)

QBJohnnywas January 5 2007 2:54 PM EST

I'm with you on this one, although for different reasons. I've always been one to tweak strats, and I know lots of people do that. So I can see how the free retrain can help people like me. It also helps find out more about the different spells and enchantments.

But it's also meant that we know perhaps too much about them. Sut now knows that DD spells take much more XP to boost their damage the higher they get. We always knew that to be the case, but not down to the detail. It can leave you feeling like you could give up, knowing that you've hit the plateau of xp spend, doomed to only tiny increments for hundreds of thousands of battles ahead.

It might be good for the number heads, but I don't need to know the exact figures it will take to reach evasion (230). It's taken some of the magic away for me.

QBsutekh137 January 5 2007 3:02 PM EST

I'm of a mixed mind on this, Tezmac, mainly for selfish reasons... I really need to see how MM does at the level I am at now, but unlearning a 3.3 million spell is a big loss without free untrain.

Think of it this way -- what if retraining were always free? Sure, maybe put a lockout on time so people couldn't just rejigger to mess with the score ladder, but what if it has _always_ been free? Would you have stopped playing CB a long time ago? At this point, it is natural to say, "hey, wait!" but doesn't re-training help you too? Try new stuff?

I like the idea, though of course if I got my team totally "optimized", then I would want it turned off for everyone else. *smile*

QBOddBird January 5 2007 3:02 PM EST

I'm not upset by it - to begin with, we don't know for sure that this is a new trend. This could just be a second helping of Jon's generosity.

I understand what you are saying, but I guess the PoV I am coming from is that it may be an early overreaction. *shrugs* But I can't guess Jon's motives or intents, he may or may not intend for it to be a trend. Just seems to me that you shouldn't go into a tizzy because it's happening a second time.

Personally, myself, I like having the option of re-arranging my strategy. Mine currently needs a major overhaul to remain competitive, and this retraining period came around at a perfect time for me. Granted, that's me and my bias towards the situation, but isn't a negative thing...

BootyGod January 5 2007 3:05 PM EST

The free retrain is used for one beautiful purpose above all others, to allow greater changes to be made to the game.

With free retrain, he can change so much more without throwing half the strategies in the game out of whack.

I know, it would kind of hurt players that way. But I prefer it this way. It allows players to experiment. I agree though, I wish players didn't abuse it by finding out -everything-. But, heck, if the max blow is 1.9 billion, does it change the fact I get to have the game's largest VA for a few seconds lol? Nope... sure don't =)

Tezmac January 5 2007 3:14 PM EST

I can definitely see where you're coming from Sut, I just don't happen to like it. I'd be much more impressed if Jon gave each player 1 free untrain a year, that way one could gamble on how bad that change month really affected their strat and roll the dice on whether the next month would be worse or not.

"With free retrain, he can change so much more without throwing half the strategies in the game out of whack."

See, this is where I strongly disagree. Jon doesn't seem to make changes willy-nilly, he does it to balance out the game. So if you were benefiting from something that was overpowered, you deserved to get slapped down and suffer for awhile while the other side of the aisle gets to reap in the rewards. Now people can just jump from strong strat to strong strat and not really have to think as much about their future.

I don't think I'm getting in a tizzy over it, just pointing out that I hope this trend doesn't continue. :O)

QBsutekh137 January 5 2007 3:48 PM EST

Tezmac, that is beautiful, I couldn't agree more -- one (or maybe two) retrains a year, or some such. I would be 100% on board with that, and it brings Jon's favorite thing to the table: choice. *smile*

Vicious Cat January 5 2007 4:18 PM EST

I'm with OB (The Cat and the Canary!!) - two instances don't make a trend.
Speaking as someone who did a major tweak about an hour before Jon announced the free retrain I find it quite easy to be bitter about it, and I must admit I don't understand why we need it, surely this is why we have ncb?
But hey - anything that helps tweaking is OK in my book!!! :-)

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] January 5 2007 4:24 PM EST

before the one coming up, it was an accident, and because people used it before he noticed he had to let it be allowed for everyone to make it fair...

Tezmac January 5 2007 4:26 PM EST

Looking at September's changelog, thats not true.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 5 2007 4:30 PM EST

This one is to allow people to try archery without the bug...I don't see another one soon, not without major changes...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 5 2007 4:35 PM EST

I'm siding with Tez on this. :)

So a new, possibly Uber, Spell/Skill/Enchantment is introduced. Or a massive change is made to something out of balance.

We should not be allowed to get away with it scott free.

If you've been using something known to be overpowered, and it gets nerfed, tough. You had an easy ride whileit lasted.

If you're using something of a Red-haired step child, and it get's buffed. Bonus!

Want to add that new DD spell to your arsenal? Make the sacrifice and unlearn something you had.

A new strategy opens up to you that you didn't see before, and it won't fit your current team, NCB. That's what it's there for. ;)

QBJohnnywas January 5 2007 4:55 PM EST

Interesting. I didn't realize you felt that way about it GL. One of the few people who messes with his characters more than me!! I thought you would love it!

QBsutekh137 January 5 2007 4:57 PM EST

Though, looking at it another way, MPR already has enough dings against it: can't really be augmented by USD, does not have linear upgrade costs, and is expensive to augment during NCB (high BA costs).

So, allowing the free untrain at least lets people optimize and experiment with that which is precious and already hard enough to manage.

Still like the periodic idea, though, instead of multiple retrain periods (if that is what we are, in fact, in for in 2007).

QBPixel Sage January 5 2007 5:01 PM EST

*doesn't read through the whole thread*

Well, there are two sides to free untraining, one good and one bad. The bad is what you mentioned, though I wouldn't go so far as to say it makes balancing pointless. However, unlike you, many people DO go for biased teams, and on purpose. For them, free untraining is definitely a plus, mostly to get used to the changes.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 5 2007 7:10 PM EST

I would tinker so much more if it didn't mean messing with my charcater (or I save my tinker time to the end of a NCB, when I know I'm going to start another.

If I know I can tinker for free every change monght, I'll just use a RoE to get as much XP as possible, load up on a one sided strat (like Full EC and only target tanks) and get as much to play with for free retrain time.

I like tinkering, but feel you need a penalty, or limit to do so.

Messed up? Want to use BL instead of Evasion. Your choice, you should have thought about that before your charcaters inception. You can change now, but it'll cost you!


I like having to weigh up the pro's and con's! ;)

(Although, I do agree with the last free retrain, there were some ground breaking mechanic changes made. I'd be 100% ok with a free retrain this time round, and every time in the future, if they all came coupled with game shattering changes!)

QBRanger January 5 2007 7:26 PM EST

How about for every 500k MPR you get, you get 1 free untraining?

Usable of course for when you actually want.

Hyrule Castle January 5 2007 7:36 PM EST

thats not fair for the people making ncb's

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 5 2007 7:39 PM EST

I think it's very fair! :D

Flamey January 5 2007 7:53 PM EST

yeah, because 500k MPR is soooo hard to get to, considering the top player is 2.2mil MPR.

gosh, golly, gee, hard.

QBJohnnywas January 5 2007 8:03 PM EST

The option for a free untrain every 500k mpr actually sounds good. Kind of like putting your char in for a service.


And to take the opposite side to Tezmac (and myself); the free untraining that Jon is offering is an option. People don't have to use the opportunity.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 5 2007 8:14 PM EST

personally, I think it's better as an arbitrary thing, only when changes warrant it...

QBRanger January 5 2007 8:25 PM EST


Considering the game is 2 full years old, the top characters will have had only 4 times to retrain and most would have only 2 to 3 during the entire 2 years.

I do not think 500k is that low.

Relic January 5 2007 8:33 PM EST

I would be in favor of a free retrain every 200k MPR, it would keep more people and players on their toes.

QBsutekh137 January 5 2007 8:48 PM EST

I was just going to say, halve that 500K, 200K works too. Hey, if nothing else it is incentive to grow, and we are talking about growing MPR, not pumping USD in to grow total PR.

An MPR milestone that offers "rewards"...that is a fantastic idea, and dovetails nicely with what Jonathan is already doing with new player "goals".

Oh, and let's make sure the "retrains" come in multiples of 2, OK? If I switch to MM with a free retrain and find out it doesn't work, I am screwed to go back. The option should be a "there and back again" deal...

The Death Company [...] January 5 2007 10:36 PM EST

i know im hardly active at the moment but something that might have helped me consider putting the effort in and play more would have been a free retraining at the end of my nub (or someones NBC).

Once my nub ran out i know i didnt have the time to make an nbc properly .. but i probably would have carried on playing a bit more often could i have retrained when my nub ran out

I know some people go to great effort to save the exp to retrain to alter there strat but i really didnt fancy fighting another 2-4 months just to untrain and retrain all four minions that werent particually high up the rankings ... and then possibly not be happy with my choice .. so i just retired my team and mess about trying different things hoping to get draw back in to start an nbc

If it was available at the end of a nub/nbc id want it so you couldnt sell a character for say 6 weeks and all the exp had to be trained though .. its meant to benifit the person and make them decide to carry on not to give them more money

just my 2 pennies

Miandrital January 5 2007 10:41 PM EST

Building off sute's last idea, how about at every 'retrain point' you get a 10k mpr window where you can untrain freely, but past that point you will no longer be able to.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 5 2007 11:24 PM EST

Not sure about at the end of a NUB/NCB, that would just make people make a Signle (or multi) RoE Mage to boom the most MPR out, then retrain to what they want to play after the bonus time.

I really like the idea of MPR level goals, 200K, 250K, 500K, whatever the amount, it's all good! ;)

I'm not too keen on the "get out of jail" second retrain idea. I like giving this free retrain with the warning "You better really know what your doing, otherwise you're stuck till the next free retrain mister!" :P

QBsutekh137 January 5 2007 11:40 PM EST

Mian, not my idea! As ever, I pull from the greats! Tezmac for starting this thread, Ranger for adding, GL for throwing in ideas...oh, this is a Good Thread...

Remember, any milestones need to cover ALL potential goals, both long term and short, bonus and not. It can't just be something up front or something end-game...

Flamey January 6 2007 1:01 AM EST

PM, It was sarcasm ;)

and I forgot to mention that, with a NCB, 500k MPR isn't hard to get to. :)

Vicious Cat January 6 2007 5:24 AM EST

Milestones seem like a brilliant idea - maybe with a 24hr window of backtracking rather than a flat MPR thing - but you lose all the XPs you've gained during that time if you do revert?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 6 2007 10:34 AM EST

Brilliant VC! :D

A "Get out of Jail" with a penalty! ;) Love it!

velvetpickle January 6 2007 11:07 AM EST

The idea of a free retrain at certian milestones is a goodone, but it brings up two points in my mind.

First of all the people who will surely complain about the people who happen to hit their mark extremly close to changemonth (gaining an unfair advantage that they can retrain after a major change and others can't).

The other is the free retraining "period" This allows for some experimentation and "tweaking" . Example: Do I want 30 evasion or 40?? Do I want to use a ToA or ToE? With one free retraining, there is really no way to experiement with those numbers. (which IMHO is the best part of free retraining)

Vicious Cat January 6 2007 4:11 PM EST

The retraining period would 'carry' - ie you can use it whenever you wanted after the milestone.
Your other concern - hmmm, allow 'partial' untrains? (but only within the 24hrs)
can't see Jonathan going for that though
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