AdminJonathan
January 9 2007 12:27 PM EST
So here's the skinny:
Junction transfers items' effects _on the minion training junction_; it does not duplicate the items themselves, or item intrinsics. So MH's aura does not get duped -- the MH aura only affects the MH, not a bow on the same minion -- but AC does. (Someone posted that AC does not -- if so that's a bug; it's intended to work.)
To repeat: no current weapons do anything that would qualify for Junction.
Junction transfers both positive and negative effects (such as armor dx penalties) but as junction gets higher it can block out the negative. At 1.0 you get 100% of the positive effect for most things, and 150% for ST and DX. At 1.0 you get 0% of the negative effect. Junction operates on the aggregate of a given effect, so if you have a TSA equipped as well as EG, you won't get 0% of the TSA penalty and 150% of the EG bonus; first the bonus and penalty get added, THEN junction is applied.
To get 1.0 you need to have 1/5 of your tattoo's effective lvl in Junction. (It started out as 1/5 of your DX/ST/spell, whichever was highest, but changed this morning.)
QBRanger
January 9 2007 12:30 PM EST
Jon,
So the effects on the minion wearing the items do not apply to the minion, only the familiar?
TSA and familiar?
And does this mean we ned to train junction for STR and DX items to add to ToA now? Was automatic before i think...?
GO PATS
January 9 2007 12:34 PM EST
ToA isn't a familiar I think, and TSA can't be worn with a tattoo anyhow.
Jon makes it sound like TSA can be worn with one, lol
And i was just making sure that it was ONLY familiars and not all tattoos
AdminJonathan
January 9 2007 12:48 PM EST
effects apply to minion and familiar, but only the familiar's end are modified by junction
yeah, TSA was a bad example :)
Junction transfers items' effects _on the minion training junction_;
My impression is that the minion training junction does not have to wearing the tatoo to transfer the effects.
I like it :D
clearly my impression was wrong hehe
how about familairs on enchanters?
Talion
January 9 2007 1:44 PM EST
Ok, I tested with an AoI and I know for sure that the invisibility effect did not transfer to my familiar. He was hit by a melee weapon before my minion was. My minion was in front of it (I tested without the AoI first).
I don't know if the Evasion effect transfered though? Is it supposed to?
"At 1.0 you get 100% of the positive effect for most things, and 150% for ST and DX. At 1.0 you get 0% of the negative effect."
Right, time for a list of possible Junction effects. ;)
Modifier to STR (up to 150% of item bonus)
Modifier to DEX (up to 150% of item bonus)
Modifier to DD (up to 100% of item bonus) - No Familiar has an EO/ED
AC (up to 100% of item bonus)
Invisibility (?)
PTH Reduction (?) (Up to 100% of item bonus)
Talion
January 9 2007 1:47 PM EST
Invisibility is (0%). I tested it.
AdminJonathan
January 9 2007 1:49 PM EST
invisibility does transfer, but remember both familiar and minion will be invisible so if nobody else is left it will be the same as if neither was
:) Probably the biggest use for Junction. ;) Apart from buffing your DD familiars with an AG on your enchanter of course!
Talion
January 9 2007 1:53 PM EST
About invisibility...
My minion doesn't have any DD spell or weapon, but my familiar was still hit first.
Shouldn't my minion get hit first if it's standing in front of my familiar (when both are supposed to be invisible)?
Jon, does the increase to UC from a HG transfer over to a JKF when Junctioned?
AdminJonathan
January 9 2007 2:24 PM EST
"does the increase to UC from a HG transfer over to a JKF when Junctioned?"
yes
QBJohnnywas
January 9 2007 2:26 PM EST
UC, Helms and the Jig.
So, presumably the increase in skill level from elven gear crosses over to the Jig's UC as well? Nice if it does!
Miandrital
January 9 2007 2:28 PM EST
Junction is a little too accurate right now: Junction: 100 (0.00334343049342)
AdminJonathan
January 9 2007 2:29 PM EST
"the increase in skill level from elven gear crosses over to the Jig's UC as well?"
yes, subject to the discussion about penalties vs bonuses in my first post
QBJohnnywas
January 9 2007 2:34 PM EST
Yeah, I was taking penalties into account. I think you've been a little too fair on the penalty side, lol. I was half expecting the penalties to be passed over the junction link intact! You're going to get a reputation for being generous Jon!
Miandrital
January 9 2007 2:35 PM EST
So basically, a single FB mage could equip +100 dbs and a steel familiar, and BOTH minions will have the +100 db effect, correct?
Knew I had another question! :P
Does the item naming bonus get transfered over by Junction?
TheHatchetman
January 9 2007 2:44 PM EST
I guess, but neither would have the help of Evasion. And there would be some major XP dilution on the FB mage trying to keep junction where it needs to be...
AdminJonathan
January 9 2007 3:11 PM EST
"Does the item naming bonus get transfered over by Junction?"
yes
Also: free-untraining, where are you?
deifeln
January 9 2007 4:08 PM EST
possibly Jon is not done yet :o)
TH3 C0113CT0R
January 9 2007 4:20 PM EST
Does that mean if you use a jig and were gear that hurts UC the Jig will be hurt by it? I would think so
Talion
January 9 2007 4:35 PM EST
Ok, this is my last post about this because if Jon doesn't believe me this time, I will give up on the issue...
Invisibility does not get "joined" to my familiar when my minion is wearing an AoI.
My latest test involved an attack on "The Night Spirit", and my familiar was actually shot at before some of my "visible" minions. However, the minion equiped with the familiar and wearing the AoI was decapitated last.
"The Night Spirit" is using an Elven Bow equiped with Named Arrows.
AdminJonathan
January 9 2007 4:38 PM EST
post a fight log
Talion
January 9 2007 4:40 PM EST
Play-by-play
Crusher The Night Spirit
Nullifier cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (277,852)
Nullifier cast Vampiric Aura on Crusher (?)
Blocker cast Protection on all friendly Minions (7)
The Night Spirit cast Antimagic Field on Nullifier's familiar (0.16)
The Night Spirit's Protection fizzles under Dispel Magic
enchantment effects that cannot be determined before combat are displayed as '?'
Ranged Combat
Crusher's explosive shot hit The Night Spirit [60273]
Nullifier's familiar takes damage from his own Magic missile (9793)!
Nullifier's familiar's Magic missile hit The Night Spirit [113985]
The Night Spirit struck deep into Crusher with The Arc of Night [498641]
R.I.P. Crusher
Nullifier's familiar takes damage from his own Magic missile (11192)!
Nullifier's familiar's Magic missile hit The Night Spirit [77447]
The Night Spirit skewered Nullifier's familiar with The Arc of Night [679065]
The Night Spirit struck deep into Nullifier's familiar with The Arc of Night [709276]
The Night Spirit skewered Nullifier's familiar with The Arc of Night [803985]
R.I.P. Nullifier's familiar
The Night Spirit hit Blocker with The Arc of Night [322903]
The Night Spirit skewered Blocker with The Arc of Night [360462]
The Night Spirit struck deep into Blocker with The Arc of Night [253973]
R.I.P. Blocker
Melee Combat
The Night Spirit's Chill of Night went snicker-snack! [193574]
The Night Spirit's Chill of Night went snicker-snack! [158360]
R.I.P. Nullifier
I honestly think it is related to the named arrows and/or the named elbow, than the junction skill.
QBRanger
January 9 2007 4:42 PM EST
Talion,
What level is your junction and is its effect (1.0)?
If not then the invisibility is not at 100% effect.
Talion
January 9 2007 4:45 PM EST
The effect is 0.01, but even then, my familiar should be shot at after my Wall (Blocker), which is not equiped with an AoI.
QBRanger
January 9 2007 4:46 PM EST
With an effect of only .01, i suspect the invisibility works only 1% of the time.
So the fight order is correct, your familiar is in front of your wall, thereby getting hit before it. However, 1% of the time your familiar will be invisible.
I think the effect for things like Invis is all of nothing. Either you have it at 100% and your familiar is invis, or you don't and he rightly get's targetted before your last minion.
TH3 C0113CT0R
January 9 2007 4:48 PM EST
but at 0.01 who says its even getting any effect, maybe even a negative effect because its so low compared to 1.00
I dunno just maybe
Talion
January 9 2007 4:50 PM EST
What GL says makes sense. I will try to get the skill over 0.5 during retraining and I will run more tests.
BootyGod
January 9 2007 5:03 PM EST
Hey, it doesn't appear in Stats> Character Attributes.
Will that take awhile, or just not been added yet or what?
lol if it's all or nothing, that could get annoying as you burn thru BA and your tattoo lvls up and may drop below 1.0 effect :P
To repeat: no current weapons do anything that would qualify for Junction.
I'm looking forward to the new weapons that can be utilised with Junction! :D
AdminJonathan
January 9 2007 11:40 PM EST
switched invisibility to always transfer no matter how weak junction is
Arorrr
January 10 2007 12:11 AM EST
That is weak, Jon. Leave too much for abuse of AoI. Should make it either 0.5 or 0.3. The point here is the return of investment. A base training in Junction shouldn't automatically grant Invisibility.
QBRanger
January 10 2007 12:19 AM EST
I do agree with Arorr.
That is mighty powerful for under 500 xp in total.
Just do it as a % like it was done with archery in the old days. A certain % that the AOI will work on the familiar in each combat.
AdminJonathan
January 10 2007 12:27 AM EST
you're forgetting opportunity cost
spending a slot that could be used on evasion or BL on making your familiar invisible, that is not a no-brainer
GnuUzir
January 10 2007 1:02 AM EST
I seem to have lost my familiar, it is still equipped he just does not want to fight for me any more...
AdminJonathan
January 10 2007 1:31 AM EST
fixed
GnuUzir
January 10 2007 1:33 AM EST
Thanks!
Jon always on the ball ;-)
Shooto
January 10 2007 2:19 AM EST
Right but couldn't you just equip the familiar on an enchanter with an AoI that wouldn't train evasion anyways? I agree that there should be a minimum for it to always work or at least make the number a percentage of how often or how much will actually transfer over.
But then there's the added jolly of having the enchanter minion also being invisible... is that more efficient than, say, simply a well placed tat?
Sorry Jon, another question.
Does an AoF transfer over with Junction? So a Jig (for example) would get the increase to UC (but maybe not Endurance, if it's not classed as a skill?) and any enchantments cast upon it?
Kong Ming
January 10 2007 5:10 AM EST
So do evasion from a pair of DBs get transferred to the familiar?
QBRanger
January 10 2007 7:46 AM EST
Jon,
A tank would never use a familiar.
And just put the familiar on an enchanter to get the AOI effect. Enchanters do not need evasion. Perhaps PL but certainly not evasion.
The benefit of getting invisibly for less then 500xp is very powerful.
Big PAPA
January 10 2007 7:48 AM EST
switched invisibility to always transfer no matter how weak junction is
--Jonathan, January 9 2007 11:40 PM EST
Might just be me but this does not seem to be working.
Talion
January 10 2007 8:25 AM EST
As Big PAPA wrote... it is not working. My familiar is still getting hit before the minions behind it.
QBJohnnywas
January 10 2007 8:32 AM EST
'QBPopsicle Man, 7:46 AM EST
Jon,
A tank would never use a familiar. '
Not true. There are a few tanks out there with familiars. And if this new archer familiar is good enough you may see a few more.
QBRanger
January 10 2007 8:33 AM EST
I meant to type, a tank (except for solo ones) would never WEAR a familiar.
An enchanter would and let the tank use BL as it should.
I fought Big Papa to see what's happening, and I attacked Odloru (his first minion), Ebil's Familiar, then Thenor. Missing out Ebil himself, who is wearing an AoI.
Invis isn't working on Familiars. ;)
QBJohnnywas
January 10 2007 8:38 AM EST
I thought that might be what you meant! I do think there will be more people trying it out though. Probably in the shape of a WT, heavy ac on the wall and familiar on the tank.
But I do agree that Junction seems to be giving a lot for very small investment.
I've got a .69 junction effect and in the play by play my Hal is showing as having zero AC. The E he's on has about 39. Should any of that have transfered over?
QBPixel Sage
January 19 2007 1:04 AM EST
Don't think this has been answered. Does Junction allow a familiar to use HoC's double first strike?
QBRanger
January 19 2007 1:05 AM EST
Yes,
The new Helm does link.
Of course only a SF, HF or FF can use that ability.
QBPixel Sage
January 19 2007 4:13 AM EST
Hmm... MM mage with a SF with the HoC. Four hits in the first ranged round. Might that make a spiffy team? =)
Flamey
January 19 2007 4:16 AM EST
Pixel, Sutekh and I believe PoisoN shortly.
Heath316
January 23 2007 1:41 PM EST
Is the AoI working yet? It is suppose to work at .01 junction but it's not?
AdminJonathan
January 23 2007 2:10 PM EST
"It is suppose to work at .01 junction"
no
TheHatchetman
January 23 2007 2:13 PM EST
at 0.01 junction you have a 1% chance of it working...
Heath316
January 23 2007 2:14 PM EST
Ok just making sure. I saw this post above.
switched invisibility to always transfer no matter how weak junction is
--Jonathan, January 9 2007 11:40 PM EST
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