Wow big changes but... (in General)


Drama [Just for fun] January 11 2007 11:22 AM EST

Ok Cone of Cold as been boosted of 15% damage, but that makes no difference. Only means my minion will die sooner against AMF since the AMF % is the ratio of AMF level to opponent DD level (not opponent DD effect).

So I'm a bit disapointed about that change... could have been better.

Shooto January 11 2007 11:24 AM EST

So fight the other 50% of people that don't train AMF. Thats part of the strategy of this game. Making a fightlist that tailored to your strengths, not your weaknesses.

QBRanger January 11 2007 11:27 AM EST

Yes,

I changed my 3M MM to a 3M CoC and got slammed with AMF even with a high level TOE.

With the MM I was taking 75k in AMF damage a round vs Critters. With CoC, that went to 250k.

Drama [Just for fun] January 11 2007 11:28 AM EST

Shooto.............

Every body as AMF....


Ok if it was EC or evasion, but AMF is being trained by almost all players, that makes a little list for me.

Dark Dreky January 11 2007 11:28 AM EST

I don't see how you could be complaining about a 15% increase in damage! Every CoC mage should have more HP than a normal MM or FB mage because they have to wait until melee to start doing damage. AMF has and always will be excruciating. I mean, my CoC mage (on average) does more damage too himself then to my opponents. But a 15% increase in damage is not something to be dissapointed about...

Just imagine, what if it was a 15% damage increase in FB! o.0

Drama [Just for fun] January 11 2007 11:32 AM EST

I think you don't understand.

First using a CoC mages means you need other minions so exp is shared.

Second if you don't want too die by amf you need to train CoC or you'll get 100%

Third, the problem about CoC was it was weak too weak against AMF and now it is weaker.

Finally with a new item that gives an additional range attack, you coudn't do better to lower CoC

AdminJonathan January 11 2007 11:51 AM EST

as long as you were doing more damage to others than yourself, the 15% increase will help you, not hurt

if not, you're screwed anyway and should be using a different strat

Tezmac January 11 2007 11:52 AM EST

Yeah, I've pretty much been in CoC's corner until this change. It's pretty much futile to hang onto it now, even with the 15% buff to it as MM gets 4 attacks in now (with the new supporter item) before CoC can even get started, IF you even live that long now...

Drama [Just for fun] January 11 2007 12:01 PM EST

Jon damage change nothing since AMF is a %....

It makes no difference before and after the change.

The only difference I see is CoC worst than it was with the new items.

CoC was weaker than other magic vs AMF now it's even weaker.

Xiaz on Hiatus January 11 2007 12:01 PM EST

I'm no expert, but wouldn't DM be a useful enchantment to have, seeing as it'll reduce the AMF.

Tezmac January 11 2007 12:03 PM EST

DM reduces your opponents EDs (haste, protection, ga, etc) not EOs (EC, AMF).

Shooto January 11 2007 12:19 PM EST

Yeah, DM only reduces your own AMF. However, its hard to believe that EVERYONE uses AMF. That would mean that nobody would use DM or at least only those with RoS's. Like I said, find a list that doesn't use AMF. You have TONS of opponents at your level.

Tezmac January 11 2007 12:20 PM EST

Find me some up here at the top. :O)

Xiaz on Hiatus January 11 2007 12:21 PM EST

looks like NUB time Tezmac :P

Shooto January 11 2007 1:34 PM EST

At least 5 people within 10 ranks of you that aren't using AMF. Also, there are others using AMF and DM without a RoS but its impossible to tell whose AMF is actually effective against the higher magic.

Drama [Just for fun] January 11 2007 2:35 PM EST

Shooto I've calculate 3 of the top 10 and 1 is SNK3R minion wich does not play with it anymore. So doesnot make a big list. sorry but on that you are wrong.

And still this change is absolutly useless, I was waiting for a buff, not for a weaker change.

Drama [Just for fun] January 11 2007 2:46 PM EST

I don't care about doing more damage. What makes CoC weaker than every other DD is that it's melee and it is super weak against AMF. What did the change do? Nothing to help these problems. Put a resistance against AMF and a protection so you may survive up to melee would have been a good change.

kevinLeong January 11 2007 2:55 PM EST

How about putting a Corn on your ABS and giving your guy more health in general? If AMF is really tearing your guy apart then you must have either really low health or really low DD. Your score is 3x your MPR, you can't really complain that much until you work your way up.

Drama [Just for fun] January 11 2007 3:43 PM EST

Ok, Just for you kevin cause you don't seem to really understand, I'll say it again.

First I've already tried to put a corn, does not change much.

Second, Idid buy a ToE, did not change much either.

WHY?

Because, for the 5000 time, CoC is ultra weak against AMF and it is MELEE so you must survive the ULTRA BUFFED RANGE TIME, then start to attack but get OVERKILL by AMF.

Why?

For the slow one. Because CoC need RESISTANCE, not MORE DAMAGE because more damage only means GET MORE KILLED BY AFM.

For the one who don't understand this, well your only hope is to return to school.

kevinLeong January 11 2007 3:54 PM EST

Because, for the 5000 time, CoC is ultra weak against AMF and it is MELEE so you must survive the ULTRA BUFFED RANGE TIME, then start to attack but get OVERKILL by AMF.

CoC is no weaker against AMF than FB or MM. The formula for backlash is the same. Having to survive until melee has always been an issue with CoC, it hasn't changed, you knew that when you chose it as a DD.

I gave you two ideas. You only listened to one. Not only put a Corn on your ABS but also INCREASE THE HP OF YOUR GUY. Its not like you're the only one having to deal with AMF backlash. I'm a single FB minion and I've been able to deal with it accordingly.

Drama [Just for fun] January 11 2007 4:07 PM EST

Kev, When I started my CoC minion, there where no ranged buff. Now, range as been over increase and CoC( wich I've find old trhead saying it is weak, so it is not a new problem and as still not been fix).

And I'd love Ranger or Sefton to come and explain clearly why it's so bad and a good change should be resistance and not damage.

PoisoN January 11 2007 4:09 PM EST

CoC can be nice:

Noise takes damage from his own Cone of cold (89744)!
Noise's Cone of cold hit Cloudscape [93800], Microchips [104529], Prophecies [41034], The Grid [39573]

Noise takes damage from his own Cone of cold (89744)!
Noise's Cone of cold hit The Grid [919776]

1. 4 x damage, only one AMF backfire.
2. A 560k CoC can do almost 1 mil damage vs. 400AC, I have to mention that the 26mil exp I put into my level 2 mil GA does less damage(avg. 40k even less than the 0.08 AMF casted on me in this battle), and is completely healed every round from Koyas TSA.

All you have to do is to keep the minion alive :-)

I have still no idea why the backfire from my familiars MM is 25183, 28781, 32379 and the CoC is 89744, 89744, 89744, 89744. Is it me or is this game more difficult than Chess, Go and Backgammon? Could be a reason why only 400 people play this game...

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] January 11 2007 4:12 PM EST

OK, now this is getting less and less productve for you Belle. If you want to say CoC is underpowered, I think you are right. If you want to say adding damage to CoC is not helping it as much as adding some resistance to AMF would, I think you are right. If you want to say I am mad about it, go ahead. But getting into a shouting match with kevin wont help you.

kevin, if you are trying to be helpful, you might want to work on your presentation skills. It came off less as a helpful suggestion and more like, hey you idiot, why are you not doing this. I am not saying that was your intention, simply I saw it like that and maybe Belle did too.

In the end Belle, your only hope is persistant, well thought out and logical discussion on the subject. Get Ranger and Sut involved in the discussion as they are wonderful at helping ideas go from fantasy to reality (even if they are on the other side of the fence) by forcing to better define what you want.

Anyway, I joined the dark side and switched to MM on my CoC mage team, it was FREE! You can always go that route until you get what you want :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 11 2007 4:13 PM EST

AMF backlash is based on DD effect. The higher effect, the more damage per point the DD does. CoC has the highest Damage per point out of the three, so takes more from a backlash than an equal sized FB/MM.

noneedforthese January 11 2007 4:13 PM EST

I'm with Belle-Ange on this one. Getting more HP doesn't exactly help if tanks are triple hitting for over a million damage.. unless you are asking him to get another million hp o.0???

"CoC is no weaker against AMF than FB or MM"

Uh, really? Say, a lvl 1 million CoC versus a lvl 500k AMF will take more damage than a lvl 1 million MM versus the same lvl AMF... I call that weaker... if AMF backlash was calculated on purely lvl versus lvl, then it wouldn't be weaker...

You might say "but you do more damage so it makes up for it", but again, you need to survive 3 (probably 4) rounds of ranged to even START doing damage, and if you simply get "more HP" as people seem to be saying, your DD lvl decreases with dilution and you end up taking even more damage from AMF and doing less damage with CoC to make it worthless to use...

Belle, I think it's time you moved on to a different DD :P

Drama [Just for fun] January 11 2007 4:17 PM EST

Sorry, I'm just a bit mad that the change was again almost only for range and that the change on CoC is for me ridiculous.

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] January 11 2007 4:58 PM EST

--Big IMO sign--

Let me just add a tiny little something here, and please pardon me if it is totally useless, or just a product of my poor strat skills, only trying to get my point across, because CoC discussions spark my interest greatly :P

CoC is Strong. Really. It hurts. 15% more damage? Okay, cool, it really makes a difference, at least for me, EVEN if I hurt myself more.

-BUT-, when people hit me for 350k-600k in ranged, with either bows (I've just seen some 800k hits, from a char not so stronger than me in terms of mpr and such), or, in some cases, a mid-sized MM (Now boosted by a new item), on three or more occasions, it can sometimes be quite dificult to make it to melee.

Put an AoI. Okay, in theory that should help my Ice fam and his bearer survive a lil bit longer against bows. Well, my whole team dies in ranged. And it is like that in two situations, either if I:

1)Put all my Ice guy's exp into HP, and my other's into AS. So basically I have loads of HP. Does not modify the income.

2)Get a GA of 350k+put back the As on my Ice guy, at 600k. Mix of hp and what is supposed to help most against ranged, GA (and a favorite of mine!)
Does not change the income. I lose either way, my Ice guy dies with only hitting once, even if killed last.

Same thing with MM, but then AoI does not protect the Ice Guy, so it's the same scenario. Thing I want to point is : with my current amount of Xp, against a char who has the same amount of Xp, whatever how I share it, I die. ( I could be a crappy player though, haha )

I do not post this to get strat advice, thanks :P

Only, I feel that in most situations, if CoC does not necessarily suck, it is indeed underpowered, or requires insane amounts of strategy to make it worthwhile. (or insane amounts of high-end gear to supply with big AC.) With the avent of Beleg-powered Halidons to add in the fray...
It needs to be tinkered with to provide some sort of protection against range, even a super-tiny one, or get a somewhat of a partial AMF immunity to balance the fact it requires 4 rounds to get into action.

Moral: HP is NOT a good solution, imo.

If something I said is not clear, I'll be happy to explain better :)

Thanks for reading, and cheers!

kevinLeong January 11 2007 5:22 PM EST

"Uh, really? Say, a lvl 1 million CoC versus a lvl 500k AMF will take more damage than a lvl 1 million MM versus the same lvl AMF... I call that weaker... if AMF backlash was calculated on purely lvl versus lvl, then it wouldn't be weaker...

You might say "but you do more damage so it makes up for it", but again, you need to survive 3 (probably 4) rounds of ranged to even START doing damage, and if you simply get "more HP" as people seem to be saying, your DD lvl decreases with dilution and you end up taking even more damage from AMF and doing less damage with CoC to make it worthless to use..."

Really, you would call doing more damage and taking a bit more backlash weaker? By doing more damage you increase your opportunity to end the fight faster. Instead of ending the fight in 4 rounds into melee you have a better opportunity to end it in three. And yes, it makes a big difference. Saving yourself one more round prevents your opponent from having another opportunity to attack you, and indeed, if your opponent is triple hitting you then that is a lot of damage being prevented.

You always have to have a balance in your skills, you can't just overload on one thing and expect it to carry you all the way. If you're having problems living through range then put evasion on one of your guys. If you're having problems with backlash learn a bit more HP. Sure you're dilutiing your DD a bit but what difference does it make? If by adding some Evasion and HP you beat the people who you couldn't fight previously you're still expanding your fightlist, while losing some to others. As long as you add in moderation you should be fine.

Fortunately you have free retraining to play a bit with the numbers.

I'm sorry if I came out a bit rough in my previous post. I really was/am trying to be helpful.

Drack January 11 2007 5:25 PM EST

i agree with Belle - the change for CoC could have been better.

I dont use AMF for my character and Belle used to farm me for about 50% or less challenge bonus. but after i grew a little and the ranged attacks hit more and hurt more - Belle had to stop farming me

so even users without AMF still beat Belle - i wonder how many people on her favourite list are 100% challenge bonus

Drama [Just for fun] January 11 2007 5:32 PM EST

putting a evasion on a minion will only make you have less exp too put in hp. A you need a big evasion to counter archery with all the plus-to-hit

kevinLeong January 11 2007 5:47 PM EST

I'm sorry, I'm gonna bow out of this conversation now, there's too many changes I'd make in your overall strategy and it wouldn't do any good to put one liners and try to come up with "quick fixes". I probably shouldn't have gotten involved in the first place.

I will say, however, I agree overall, CoC is gimped, but I think the problems you're having can be solved given a different strategical approach.

Once again I didn't mean to offend.

noneedforthese January 11 2007 7:07 PM EST

Ending fights one round earlier through 15% increased damage - that works either way, increased damage through GA/AMF you might die a round earlier too. Also, note that many (probably most magic users) will have gained another ranged round to make up for your increased damage.

Getting evasion - exp dilution will make you even more worthless versus AMF, lowers your damage to lose even more to other mages hitting in ranged even if they don't have AMF...

Overall, CoC is gimped to a point that <imo> given x resources and x MPR, it is strictly and far better to use other DDs </imo>

In fact I would be happy to be the one eating my words if I see an amazing CoC strat emerge.. but given HoC and the metagame, <imo> that's just not going to happen </imo>

Drama [Just for fun] January 11 2007 9:19 PM EST

Well that's why I would love that Jon understand this fact and a better change on CoC.
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