Single minions doomed? (in General)

AdminShade January 12 2007 7:10 AM EST

Are single minions without a tattoo doomed in CB2? I think they are, especially tanks...

QBJohnnywas January 12 2007 7:20 AM EST

A single minion has to be either able to last into melee or capable of a lot of damage in ranged. Evasion helps, so do items such as the newly changed TSA and the Morg.

With the way it works the new HoC doesn't particularly help tanks of any persuasion.

I don't think the likes of your character are doomed, but a tattoo - of almost any kind - adds so much to a char that slowdown is inevitable.

And I believe there is a ceiling that single minions of a tank type hit and cannot get above easily, without purchasing other minions.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 12 2007 7:26 AM EST

Single FB Mage.

AoAC, HoC, TSA, AG, CoI.

Evasion, HP, FB/MM.

PWN. ;)

AdminShade January 12 2007 7:28 AM EST

Evasion helps you say, though evasion only helps against tanks. Being a single tank myself I have plenty of DX against people of 'my own size'. Having that people usually don't hit me that much with weapons...

QBJohnnywas January 12 2007 7:31 AM EST

It is possible to go without a 'standard' tattoo, but even then using a RoE is probably the way to go.

It's a shame really that tattoos do add so much to chars, and that the alternative is so much weaker in comparison.

Regardless of the fact that I don't have the patience to build up a non ToA tank, I would always go for the ToA. ST, Dex, and the bonus to PTH. To get the same effects without a tattoo requires not only a whole load of xp but cash as well to inject into the + on your weapon.

It's no wonder that it's a no brainer for most people as to which way to choose.

Well done Shade for taking the harder option. Keep it up. It will be worth it!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 12 2007 7:32 AM EST

Evasion kicks DEX's behind if you don't need DEX to hit. It's not useful versus tanks, it's brilliant!

They won't hit you in Ranged, and with a good sized Eva, they might not hit you in Melee. If a Tank can't hit, he can't damage.

QBJohnnywas January 12 2007 7:32 AM EST

I mentioned evasion in passing as one of several means of staying alive; for a melee based character like yours it's not worth it.

(as an aside: evasion...seems to becoming an almost compulsory addition to every team I fight)

TheHatchetman January 12 2007 7:34 AM EST

GL, 12% penalty from TSA/HoC nullifies your AG... Much better off with ToE... (yes, i know that removes the CoI, but AMF damage severely reduced, and you only recieve a 2% from the HoC, allowing for a 10% increase to DD through your AG's)

NOTE: these numbers based on the AG being at +12, which seems to be the norm (probably because its over a mil to +13, and more than $10 USD for just one point seems rediculous...).

AdminShade January 12 2007 7:37 AM EST

Well the choice for no ToA isn't that hard.... I seem to be making almost as much DX bonuses from my items as I would gain from the ToA itself.

Though the PTH is the true factor to be taken into account.

I think I now will need a ranged weapon to make it stay viable though I am extending it to the very last...

If only I could get that Elven Hauberk to get my magic damage reduction back again...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 12 2007 7:48 AM EST

Hatchet. If you're AG off set the TSA and HoC, your CoI is pure damage increase.

The extra attack is worth another 70% damage. If you last more than 7 rounds, you'll get more damage overall from not using a HoC/TSA, but you lose out on the regen from the TSA.

It's regen is a nice counter to AMF backlash damage. ;)

Brakke Bres [Ow man] January 12 2007 7:49 AM EST

Ah single minion strats are doomed anyway, no questions asked no questions answered. Why? I make it short and simple. If by some stupid chance you actually make it to 2mil MPR then you are facing huge tanks with 400 AC or AoI and huge EC's. Rendering your single tank sporting a MH to a baby holding a piece of candy. Bashing your way through enchanters and walls with 2mil HP and no ranged attack. And now you get even more hit in the ranged rounds because of the nifty helmet. Your doomed plain and simple

The only real advantage that you have as a single tank, its simple to run, easy to maintain and you beat single mages with relative ease.

Tyriel [123456789] January 12 2007 9:31 AM EST

Unless, by some miracle, you happen to reach 2m MPR, and then spend enough USD to buy 3 more minions.

Go, Shade, Go!

AdminShade January 12 2007 10:32 AM EST

Henk: if I were 2 mil MPR and would face another 2 mil MPR team, then my ST would be so huge so that I'd do 2 mil damage in melee easily...

Brakke Bres [Ow man] January 12 2007 10:37 AM EST

you could but you still first had to carve your way to all sorts of walls and or enchanters while the main damage dealer from the opposing team is bashing your head in with there weapons and they have ranged as well.
And did i mention an EC casting over 2 mil effect?
You need a pretty big morg for 2 mil damage if your str is almost nothing.

AdminShade January 12 2007 10:45 AM EST

which EC is casting at 2 mil effect?

From the fight against Koyaanisqatsi:

Prophecies cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (406050)
Microchips cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (1705149)

Microchips has the ethereal chains trained at level 2129671.

This makes that 'over 2 mil of effect' as you speak of only being cast at 1.3 mil in effect.

QBsutekh137 January 12 2007 11:04 AM EST

By the way, Evasion isn't really "all that" any more, not now that folks are trying Archery again and that people are finally pumping the + on their bows.

Vlad Tepes frequently taps me _twice_ in Round One with his bow. That's me with an evasion at 1,180,000/1,000,000 (119)...I will get what the effect of 3x that experience is later today. But yeah, Shade is 100% completely correct. A single minion has nothing, even with a tattoo, against multi-minion teams at higher levels. It doesn't even take four minion teams -- Kaiser and Dixie Cousins completely own me, even though I am devoting a full half of my team's experience toward Corn-boosted DM right now. I might catch them eventually, but I honestly thought I would have by now...

The HoC is wonderful, definitely a mage-buff... But as with most changes (especially onces accompanied by free retrain), my fightlist hardly changes after a few days/weeks. If nothing else, people continue to drop off. I simply don't have the damage concentration of a tank, even now with a 3.7 million MM. That's not even counting AMF. Archers hit me for 1.5 million per arrow. If they hit twice, even the highest HP minion in the game would not survive. I thought I was a fast killer, but an archer with a high-+ bow and a ToA is still tough to beat...

QBsutekh137 January 12 2007 11:06 AM EST

But I _should_ clarify -- I am going against teams with high NW -- lots of cash up here. I am not saying I should or could ever be able to beat such teams. That, however, does not make it any less disheartening. As I have said before, I devoted cash to the minion-buying game, and it was an absolute mistake. It made me just able to exist in the Top Ten once in a while, but I am hardly close to doing any more than that without spending another 60 million.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 12 2007 11:34 AM EST

Recipe for Sut is wrong pie...take XP. train EC, mix people whif, and hit for nothing...

XP is power, single minion or otherwise, with Junction and EC available, I think your pagoda of endless suffering has finally exploded into so much double FB residue...

a single minion training Junction and wearing any buffed familiar can expect that a 65 million XP investment will guarantee that almost every tank in game does nothing to you. That's power right there...

QBsutekh137 January 12 2007 12:37 PM EST

Um, sure. And what about all the mages? Your EC idea grows tiresome.

Like I said, I am doing OK, not even really complaining. But I do agree with Shade, there is still not a great deal of love for single minions. Wearing a tattoo is hard, even with junction. It precludes a lot of other options.

This is still a NW game. And not just for weapons -- you should see the tiny amounts of damage I do to ToE teams with large walls -- and that's even with my more-concentrated MM now -- still can't overwhelm a ToE-buffed wall with 400AC, no matter how much MPR (or EC) I have.

Look, you are apparently the master of what needs to be done so I stop "complaining" where are you up here? Where are your characters? Why aren't all tank teams bowing in submission to your latest NCB? I didn't use one bit of USD to get where I am, so you can surely do the same and prove your point, yes?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 12 2007 12:47 PM EST

I'm currently in possesion of 4.4 mil EC trained, effect 2.2 mil, 1 tank in the game has enough STR to not hit me like a whiffleball bat...

remember Sut, clans suck so losing to mages isn't a problem right...

I'm sorry if I sound like I'm trying to silence you, but XP isn't entirely worthless, there is at least one venue where I could beat edyit tatless, and now can take down failure, UF, and Lorenzo with a nice rented BoNE and a wee little 1.3 mil ToA...

Junction,HP, EC, decay and your SF...or a HF...

QBsutekh137 January 12 2007 1:10 PM EST

I didn't say experience is worthless, it just turned out to not be worth as much as I had anticipated (yes, my glasses get unreasonably rosy at times).

Clans have nothing to do with why I won't go pure EC. I want to be able to beat everyone, to maintain score, for one. The rewards in the Top Ten are rather nice. If I went all EC and has pesky mages pulling me down, that would be bad, yes?

Hatchetman is a prime example of what is wrong with your strat. You will never hit Top Ten (at least not for long), when a team with barely half your PR can consistently beat you. Additionally, even with all that EC, it doesn't help you get through huge walls or huge RoS teams. You will stalemate.

EC is fine as far as enchant investments go. I am saying there are other things to invest in than enchants, at least with the current enchantments available to mages.

Adminedyit January 12 2007 4:06 PM EST

"Vlad Tepes frequently taps me _twice_ in Round One with his bow"

I don't use a ranged weapon sut.

QBsutekh137 January 12 2007 4:12 PM EST

Crap, I meant Crisis. His bow is +105, my 1.2 million level evasion x3 yields around 193 evasion effect, and still counts as 1.2 million defensive dexterity.

So, +105 plus roughly +50 from the ToA gives +155. And ammo + counts x3 per pth IIRC. So, I guess getting a hit here and there (and once in a while, both) in round one isn't altogether unreasonable...

Just goes to show that at evasion isn't impenetrable by any self-respecting (read: one with some pth on it) ranged weapon...

Hyrule Castle January 12 2007 4:17 PM EST

GL why would a mage ever put a TSA on... 10% negative to DD... and it only regens 5% of hp... thats nothing, especially for a mage... who has like 0 hp to begin with :P

The Tats work better than the extra armor imo... so far that i know of :P

QBsutekh137 January 12 2007 4:29 PM EST

HC, TSA is nice for me, don't forget it gives AC as well. With the HoC and TSA, I can finally get above 100 AC< and I have plenty of HP... *smile* I am not convinced it is really that helpful, as the 10% reduction hurts, but I know it is time to think a bit more defensively than I have been. At least it is something to spend money on. Add an HoC and a buckler and I could almost get the AC up to 150! That's quite a bit for a mage!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 12 2007 4:58 PM EST

Why a single minion Tank (No Tattoo) has nothing to fear from any EC.

It's easy to get about 100% increase to STR and 50% increase to DEX with current items (althought probably a little costly!).

Imagine a large Single Tank with a natural 2 Mil STR. There's no EC inthe game that can reduce 4 Mil STR to any managable amount...

Drack January 12 2007 5:22 PM EST

What i dont get is.... why does GL and Novice train multiple minions with EC? when i've noticed that only the highest EC gets taken into effect????

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 12 2007 5:46 PM EST

I currently don't train multiple ECs. Novice does, and his all stack, like all Enchantments do. ;)

The Help/Wiki explains Enchantment stacking really well.

The one time I did use two, and only the highest was used, was when I had EC trained on a MgS user, with a full EC on my other minion.

It was for ascetics only. ;) I like the home page display with preferably all slots trained, by three is better than two. ;)

Drack January 12 2007 11:34 PM EST

ok so if it stacks then explain this to me?

Fire cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (879837)
Tongs cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (1667150)
Hammer cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (2485074)

Minion ST DX
Kou -2,191,662 -1,986,885
Seosuk -2,485,054 -2,485,054

ST: 293,412
DX: 498,189

ST: 20
DX: 20

if u notice - only the LARGEST EC affected my minions. the one casted by the others didn't minus any further

plz clarify - thank you

Tyriel [123456789] January 12 2007 11:36 PM EST

The 1st value of an enchantment is that one alone.

All the ones listed below are their own amount + the amount of said enchantment that has been casted before.

In that case, each of those 3 EC's is ~800k, and it shows the value of all of them combined in the final one.

Drack January 12 2007 11:38 PM EST

thank you so much!
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