Explain DBs and Evasion to me (in General)

QBsutekh137 January 13 2007 1:56 PM EST

OK, so I am starting to get hit more in ranged. My Evasion, even though I have increased it to level 1 million (1.2 million with the EBs), I get hit, sometimes twice, in Round One. One arrow is usually enough to kill me anyway, so it really sucks.

I want to know if DBs will be better than EBs. How does the pth-reduction of DBs work with Evasion? If I have DBs of, say, +100, and my 3x (round one) Evasion has an effect of 193, is my overall pth reduction 293? Or does the + on the DBs combine with the Evasion as if it were experience, and then THAT number gets multiplied by 3 to have some xxx effect? The thing about that is that it is very very difficult yo tell what the DBs are doing without exhaustive (and still possibly inconclusive) testing.

So, help me figure out if I should have DBs instead of EBs... I am tired of my mage dying in one round. Kind of makes it hard to win.

BootyGod January 13 2007 1:57 PM EST

All I know is, it isn't linear.

It's been said repeatedly they don't work well together. But I -know- +100 DBs and 193 evasion won't give 293. But that's it. I'm pretty sure EBs are better.

QBRanger January 13 2007 2:00 PM EST


Remember that EC lowers your evasions defensive dex.

So as high as you evasion is, the defensive dex was helping you out tons. TOA tanks already have enough PTH to override your evasion level.

QBsutekh137 January 13 2007 2:05 PM EST

I understand that. However, that doesn't answer my question. *smile*

I know EC is on the rise, and pth on weapons is getting better. With the curve getting ever-so-steep on Evasion where I have it, the bottom line is basically: I'm screwed, and will continue to be more screwed as time goes on, because even huge investments in Evasion will yield zilch. And invisibility doesn't help because that will only buy me one arrow.

All signs point to a massive wall, yet again, something I simply cannot afford (not even the minion cost, much less the gear). Well, at least it was nice to ride the MPR wave up into the Top Ten... I would have to say that seems pretty fair considering the stiff competition up here! *smile*

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 13 2007 2:10 PM EST

the DBS give a base evasion, the trained evasion adds to this as if it was an existing level of trained evasion for purposes of PTh, essentially I think of it as the XP you have into the skill is multiplied, rather than the evasion effect, because the dbs get no increase in ranged. So If you had +180 DBs and AoI for a total minus to hit of 200, and then trained evasion to 1.2 mil, you'd have the same effect on you minus to hit that you would if you'd had an existing evasion of 200, and added 1.2 mil in effect via an AoF...

QBsutekh137 January 13 2007 2:26 PM EST

Gotcha, that is a good explanation. I am not suer I could afford DBs large enough to make a difference, then. My Evasion is already at an effect of 193 or so in round one (I learned evasion up to 3x my current level to see the effect).

I'll just have to keep plugging along, and make a decision about junctioning my SF, perhaps... Thanks for the responses!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 13 2007 4:53 PM EST

DB are great if you train natural DEX. It free's up your skill slot for something else.

If you don't train natural DEX, you need to train Evasion. The skill stacks (as nov explained) with DBs as enchantments do.

If 1.2 Mil Evasion gives you an effect of (120), then a +120 DB would have an Evasion levelof 1.2 (well, the minimum for that effect).

The two 1.2 Mils would add, and you would get an effect of a 2.4 Mil Evasion (Which will be less than 240. :( )

With Ranged, just your natural Evasion gets increased, the DB stay as is. So for first Rnaged round you would have 1.2 Mil * 3 + 1.2 Mil.


I hope this helps!

Tenchi Muyo January 13 2007 5:08 PM EST

One thing to take into consideration: Is this a recent change?

I'm asking, because HoC could explain the multiple hits in the first round. My tank (small as it may be), is now getting 4 and 6 hitters in the first round (very fun with a SoD, I might add).

QBsutekh137 January 13 2007 5:28 PM EST

To be sure, the HoC makes it worse... But previously, there was about a zero chance of folks hitting me in the first round. Due to more people trying Archery, better dex, bigger ToAs, better bows, etc, that chance has gone up.

So, before the chance of hitting me was 2 x zero = zero. *smile*

Now the chance is 2 x (more than zero) = (enough to kill me first round) in many cases.

With everything growing (except for my ability to train Evasion enough to make any difference), and with STR and linear x able to make even a single hit exceed 1.5 million HP, it doesn't bode well. *smile*

TheHatchetman January 13 2007 7:05 PM EST

you misplaced your parentheses there :-P

But to back up your point on the damage thing, i have: Most Powerful Blow: 2,637,467 granted this was with a x75 seeker arrow and everything trained into ST. but I was only 750k MPR with a x723 ELB... A character anywhere near your PR would have similar ST and a much larger ELB...

QBsutekh137 January 13 2007 7:58 PM EST

Indeed. Here is an example of what a 40 million bow can do to my team:

Tarzan skewered Joe with The Bow of Mikel [1925161]
Tarzan skewered Dave's familiar with The Bow of Mikel [1640312]
Tarzan struck deep into Dave's familiar with The Bow of Mikel [1612381]
Tarzan struck deep into Dave's familiar with The Bow of Mikel [2151324]
Tarzan skewered Dave's familiar with The Bow of Mikel [2336716]

Both mage and familiar dead in two arrows, one round.

Granted, Mikel has a BIG ToA that puts his STR over 2 million and dexterity over 2.2 million... But then again, his bow is 100 million NW _less_ than the biggest bow in the game. With damage like that, I know that is one team I will never touch in my current configuration... By the way, my mage isn't _completely_ naked...he has an AC just over 100, still gets clocked for almost 2 million damage.

Tanks are still where it's at, folks. If Mikel equipped Freed's bow, I am not thinking any team could even survive ranged rounds, could it? Test it out, guys!!! *smile*

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 13 2007 8:36 PM EST

Now imagine;

Single Tank. ToA, HoC, BG, AoM. Archery + ELB (And maybe seekers for giggles)

Tack on a VB so no Melee DEX penalty, and you also have something to crack open any 400AC ToE minions you might face.


I think we're back to CB1 again. >;)

QBJohnnywas January 13 2007 8:39 PM EST

Who needs archery? ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 13 2007 8:45 PM EST

Actually, Johnnywas is right, scratch Archery and the ELB. Drop the ToA, use Junction and a HF and a SoD plus EX Shots.

If that doesn't kill your opponents in Ranged, nothing will! ;)

QBsutekh137 January 13 2007 8:57 PM EST

Nah, I could destroy a single tank...remember, all offense doesn't work. You need more minions for defense.

The question is this: Who would win -- huge single MM mage with Junctioned SF, or a huge single tank with HF?

Obvious answer: the tank, as soon as damage output per arrow exceeded highest HP in the game. And the tank would reach that point FAR before the mage would with his MM. Because remember, With Junction being trained, that eats the mage's natural defense: Evasion. The tank could concentrate on STR and pumping weaponry (with a weapon allowance no less!) and eventually crush the mage. I would venture to say that at the point the tank could dominate, his total PR might very well be substantially less than that of the mage, because a mage doesn't get a WA.

But actually, and less-obviously, I think they would just forever draw, because two big MMs (doubled) are going to toast the tank just like the arrows toast the mage and familiar. One round draws for all! *smile*

Relic January 13 2007 9:36 PM EST

Keep in mind that 40 million is the equivalent of 400 USD at the current rate. Not many players can fund such an item, so I fail to see the overpowered nature of bows, when only a small handful can afford to increase the bow's x and + to that kind of effectiveness.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 14 2007 4:30 AM EST

That's OK Glory. ;) Then only a small handful of CB players can ever be competitive.

I guess the rest of us that can't afford to play should just stop right now?

TheHatchetman January 14 2007 4:53 AM EST

Good point Glory. It's not like people could just earn $CB by fighting/forging... Sure, it's not going to make you competative overnight. But, then again, do you really deserve to be?

Flamey January 14 2007 5:24 AM EST

Smallpau1 has a 41 mil NW MH.

no USD, forging it himself, took about a year, but there you go a USD weapon.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] January 14 2007 5:26 AM EST

lol, first time its been mentioned in forums, lol

Ive been forging my own stuff for a year, the MH only took about 3-5 months to get from 16 mil to 42 mil NW

QBJohnnywas January 14 2007 5:56 AM EST

It's perfectly possible to be competitive without USD. I've an ELB that's hitting nearly a million per strike, and yet it's less than 10 mill in NW, it's so small in terms of NW that it's not even in the top 50 ELBs...

QBJohnnywas January 14 2007 5:56 AM EST

My ELB is 6.7 million NW...

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] January 14 2007 6:54 AM EST

And, just thought id throw out there i have +65 DBs, forged from birth, and on my wall i have 310 AC (Once i get it all back from rentals). Everything i have was forged by me, and maybe a little bit from someone else back when i used to fight (that wasnt much though).

42 mil NW MH
5.2 mil NW BoNE
2 mil NW SoD and ELB

Brakke Bres [Ow man] January 14 2007 7:50 AM EST

What i experience with evasion on low lvls is that my tank doesn't hit any of those evasion mages. Even with 14k dex (doesn't sound much but at my lvl it is) and with a +15 bow i miss most of the evasion targets in ranged.

So what i think is that evasion is a waste of time and you are probably better of pumping all that exp into the DD or EC. Secondly i do believe that the + formulae needs to be changed to linear like damage. The first few points go at the same rate as the highest points, but the effectiveness of the PTH on weapons need to be turned down. This will allow for more "fair" balance between mages and tanks.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 14 2007 12:32 PM EST

Henk, how would changing PTH to linear tone it down at all? :/

Brakke Bres [Ow man] January 14 2007 1:03 PM EST

making it less effective as the PTH points go up. The upgrade is linear (cost per point) but the effectiveness made into a curb.. And also make this curb not standard for all weapons but different. The cheapest PTH weapon has the curb starting earlier and the more expensive ones the curb starts later.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 14 2007 1:33 PM EST

What difference is there between non linear upgrade costs with linear effect, and linear upgrade costs with non linear effect?

Brakke Bres [Ow man] January 14 2007 1:38 PM EST

im just shooting of some ideas.

Tenchi Muyo January 14 2007 2:27 PM EST

Linear cost with non linear effect means you have more points in-between as you get to high end. It's actually something I wish would happen with PTH, that way you don't have the stagnant growth on your PTH. Sure, it would turn into less than a 1% effect, but at least it's a growth of effect every day.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 14 2007 6:33 PM EST

But, either way, you still pay more and more to get the 1% increase right? Either the cost for the next 1% goes up, or you have to buy more points to get the next 1%.

Tenchi Muyo January 14 2007 6:50 PM EST

It would cost the same per % that PTH provides, just more points between each %. I suppose it's kinda meaningless, since it's still technically the same, but I'm just dreading those high costs for a single + on my SoD, and would rather just slowly upgrade it in smaller intervals.

Then again, I have this problem of saving hundreds of thousands of CB2 just to do one upgrade >_>. I always get tempted by the "Get More BA" button when I'm trying to save for +'s.
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