Questions of the Perpetual Newb (in General)

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] January 23 2007 4:49 PM EST

Forgive the many, many newbish questions. I've finally read the changelog (march 06 to january 07) but there are still a few points that need further clarification, and some I just didn't bother to learn when I should have.

1: Is PTH (with and without ToA) more effective than evasion and DBs in upgrade costs?

Looking for a rough guide to their respective costs. The PTH upgrade costs would be for the higher end weapons, and all I'd need to know would be the blacksmith prices and the same for DBs at a similar level. And as for evasion and ToA, if there's a significant difference in which alters PTH then I'm interested but if they're close to even it's not worth the effort.

2: Can evasion and DBs prevent a character with +0 PTH but superior DX from scoring a single hit/double hit?

3: With the changes to damage upgrade costs is the damage increase now linear?

4: Are there slight differences in fight rewards depending on how many minions you have (if I recall correctly, this is favoured to the four minion teams but I can't be sure)?

5: If you stick to a one, two or three minion character then at say 1mil MPR decide to hire another minion, would this additional EXP mean you have leveled up faster than if you had more minions or do multiple minion teams have enough of an advantage in fight rewards to make up for it?

Any extra info you can give me on any of the above questions is always helpful. Thanks!

Nerevas January 23 2007 4:56 PM EST

1) The upgrade cost for DBs is the same as the P2H upgrade costs of the "top 4 rares" MH/BoTh/ELS/BoNe

2) Yes

3) I think we players often say its linear but it may not be exactly. I know its a combination of str and weapon damage. the weapon damage may be linear but str has a curve. *I think*

4) More minions have a slight advantage in total xp gained per battle

5) Having fewer total minions and then buying more minions later is far far more xp than having 3-4 total minions the entire time. Again, the xp advantage of multiple minions is slight.

AdminJonathan January 23 2007 4:57 PM EST

4) no, that was the case in cb1 but in cb2 there has never been an xp advantage for multiple minion teams

QBRanger January 23 2007 4:58 PM EST

1) I was told that the upgrade costs of the big 4 melee weapons equals that of the DB. Evasion is xp so one cannot compare evasion and Pth/DBs

2) Yes, DBs in CB2 now lower dex chance to hit if they are more than the PTH. And evasion gives defensive dex equal to its level, more so in ranged.

3) Yes

4) No, Jon stated that the xp earned by 4 minions teams equal that of a 1 minion team.

5) Since question 4's answer is No, question 5 is moot.

QBsutekh137 January 23 2007 4:59 PM EST

1. Dbs + curve is exactly the same cost as pth on the big weapons. So, those are dead-even. Whether or not evasion is more "effective" is comparing apples and oranges: you can't really compare a net-worth based attribute with an experience-based one. Evasion is very, very effective. Mine has an effect of 131, and it nullifies most ranged hits and even helps in melee. However, the defensive dexterity afforded by evasion can be eaten by EC (see my other thread on DBs vs EBs, it covers some of this).

2. Absolutely. When I tried Ranger's +151 DBs, I was able to beat Critters from time to time, sometimes seeing 0/6 and 1/7 for hits. So yes, the + on DBs can nullify opponent pth and then also eat into dexterity enough to make the opponent miss entirely.

3. No. The weapon portion of damage is linear, but overall physical damage is controlled by some combination of weapon x and tank STR. STR is not linear, so overall damage is not linear. However, as NightStrike has pointed out in several threads, the fact that the weapon x IS linear gives tanks at least a partially linear damage curve that is hard to compete with using pure MPR 9i.e. a mage), especially against USD.

4. Four minion teams are no longer favored in terms of rewards in CB2 (they never have been here). As far as I can tell, minion number does not affect rewards at all. With the new bonus figures displayed during battles, feel free to do your own research. *smile*

5. When you buy a minion you are absolutely "creating" MPR. So, assuming you were able to get decent rewards fighting with a lesser minion team (including clan points, etc.), you will be larger than you would have been starting with more minions. However, more minions can lead to better rewards simply because more minions can lead to better strategies, better balance, and better ability to beat a wide variety of teams -- this translates into better rewards. So the question is a tricky one, and I have no 100% answer for it. *smile*

QBsutekh137 January 23 2007 5:02 PM EST

PM, would you care to state why you answered "Yes" to 3? While x upgrades are linear, STR is not. Since we do not know exactly how Jonathan has combined STR and x into total damage, how can we say the physical damage curve is completely linear?

And yes, 5 is moot because of 4, but it is still a good question when one gets into the devilish details. *smile*

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] January 23 2007 5:06 PM EST

Pth costs are the same as DB + upgrade for the big 4 weapons
eg +100 is about 15M, of course you need some x as well for a weapon.

Yes DB/aoi/evasion can take pth negative so they can cut into the DX gap.

I think the damage is linear now.

I think I have seen Jon say this has never been the case in cb2. I remember reading somewhere early on that this was the case but I think ths may have been some documentation taken from cb1 which was wrong.

The xp you get for a new minion is relative to the largest existing minion so going single as long as possible and buying at the end is very expensive but will get you the most mpr possible. This was how the current No.1 overtook Ranger. Jayuu staggered his minion buying for critters and I think gained mpr that way but again it is costly and you need to have a plan for the different sized minion strat.

QBsutekh137 January 23 2007 5:07 PM EST

Also, PM, concerning number 2, the defensive dexterity in Evasion does NOT get multiplied in ranged by my reckoning. If it did, I would have an evasion effect of whatever 4.5 million level would yield, AND have a defensive dexterity of 4.5 million. Suffice it to say, I would NEVER get hit in round one of ranged. As it stands now, I still do, on rare occasion, by +180 weaponry and 2 million or so dex. They would miss every time if the dexterity multiplied as well as the evasion level. I can't be certain of that nor can I prove it, but it is my best guess.

QBRanger January 23 2007 5:18 PM EST

I said yes to Q3 since the weapon portion of the damage is increased linearly.

The overall damage done to your opponent may not be increased linearly due to strenght, AC, and TOE effects. IE if your damage overcomes the TOEs ability to reduce it, a low increase in the x of a weapon can seem to do a lot more damage.

As to Q2, I always thought that your evasion level gets multiplied by 2 in missile round 1, by 5/3 and then 4/3 in rounds 2 and 3 of misiile. That "new" level is your defensive dex and that level is converted to the number in (xx).
So while you may have over 4M defense dex, your (xxx) may be less than 180 so occasionally you will get hit by a +180 weapon, especially if on a TOA minion with its extra PTH. That weapon will hit solely due to PTH as excess dex does not lower your PTH. All that extra dex is just nullifying the opponents dex, not his PTH.

AdminJonathan January 23 2007 6:03 PM EST

sutekh is right; evasion "dx" is not increased during ranged rounds

"excess dex does not lower your PTH"

yes it does; the rule of "100 PTH always hits" is only true for equal dx as well as no evasion, invisibility, etc

QBJohnnywas January 23 2007 6:15 PM EST

' "excess dex does not lower your PTH"

yes it does; the rule of "100 PTH always hits" is only true for equal dx as well as no evasion, invisibility, etc '

So, PTH is sort of Dex on a stick then? So EC and axbows - does that mean that by using them to reduce your opponents dex, you are actually digging into their PTH as well?

AdminJonathan January 23 2007 6:28 PM EST

no, it does not mean that at all

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 23 2007 6:28 PM EST

I don't see how evasions dex isn't multiplied in ranged...

I can't hit Sut with 3 mil dex, you can't tell me he's only got 1.2 mil dex...

QBsutekh137 January 23 2007 6:37 PM EST

novice, I am not eating into your dexterity with my defensive evasion dex. I am eating into your dexterity with my surplus evasive +. See? Here:

My evasive + in round one is something around 200. That's the 1.5 million level, multiplied by three, and then turned back into an effect. I tested during free untrain. 4.5 million evasion puts something close to a 200 in the parentheses.

So, let's say your weapon/ammo/ToA give you a pth of +100. We are NOT talking dexterity yet. We are saying my +200 evasion takes away ALL your +100 pth, then the remaining +100 in my evasion effect eats away at your actual dexterity.

What is left of your dexterity is then trumped by the SECOND part of evasion -- the dexterity that is used for defense only, but does not get multiplied by the ranged factors. So, I would guess my surplus evasion (+100) eats away a LOT of your dexterity, such that your remaining dexterity is FAR below my 1.5 million level evasion-granted dexterity, which in this part of the equation, is like 1.5 million dexterity.

Clearer? Hope I don't sound flippant or snide here -- I have only very recently gotten part of my head around all this...

QBRanger January 23 2007 6:41 PM EST


What + is your bow?

I know you have a TOA, which should give at least 80 PTh.

Add the PTH of your TOA which should give you at least 160 PTH.

You use archery so no penalties to hit.

Vs 1.5M dex/evasion (accounting for EBs), in the 3rd round of missile multiplied by 4/3 would be equivalent to 2.0M. 1.2M evasion is about 108 if I remember, so 2M should be what, 130 maybe at most.

Since the multiplier does not give a multiple to the defensive dex, I cannot see how you cannot hit.

3M dex vs 1.5M dex, along with enough PTH to overcome his evasion (xxx).

Where am I mistaken?

QBsutekh137 January 23 2007 6:42 PM EST

Also of note in that second part of evasion (the granted defensive dexterity) is that EC affects that part. If you had EC that wiped out 1.5 million dexterity, then I would not benefit from that part. Another example:

Me vs. a +100 ELB, pumped up ammo, say, +30 per arrow, and a ToA, and an EC of 1.5 million (cast):

The +100 ELB plus 3x the arrow plus (I think that's right) yields already +190. Plus 50 for the ToA, that's+240. My evasion does not even get rid of your pth.

Then, your EC would nullify all of my defensive dexterity.

So, you would have a large dexterity surplus, probably landing doubles. On top of that, you would have a 40% chance at another hit. Even in round one against the highest evasion in the game.

Looking at it that way, I am surprised more tanks don't hit me in round one. Maybe I am missing something. Hopefully I have engaged Jonathan enough that he will correct where I am wrong. *smile*

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 23 2007 6:46 PM EST

I had all those things Sut, I never even came close to you...

QBJohnnywas January 23 2007 6:49 PM EST

Thanks Jon. I kind of was expecting that answer, but one can hope; especially after your revelation recently regarding EC and Evasion's defensive dex. ;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 23 2007 6:49 PM EST

my bow is now +78, (I've tried hitting Sut with a +130 bow and 2.6 mil EC and a 1.3 mil ToA), my ToA is now 1.7 mil + naming and I've got 3 mil dex...Jon's statements do not add up unless the penalties to ranged attacks are really severe...and that still doesn't explain round three...

QBsutekh137 January 23 2007 6:52 PM EST

I hope Jonathan sees this then -- maybe the dexterity IS being tripled as well...

But, bear in mind that Crisis CAN hit me in round 1 from time to time. He has:

+126 ELB
Normal arrow, so lets assume ...what, +5 = +15 against evasion
ToA (where you getting +80? I thought ToAs were +50?

That's a total of 190 (for +50 ToA) or +220 (for +80 ToA).

My Evasion is +200 in round one of ranged.

So, he barely gets to my + level. On top of that, his dexterity is only 960K. My defensive dexterity is 1.5 million.

He hits me in round one, rarely. He hits me regularly in round two.

Not sure what you were doing, novice, but if you really had all that, plus EC< you should have been hitting me. Crisis does.

QBRanger January 23 2007 6:53 PM EST

Perhaps even though people say EC lowers defensive dex, it does not.

Also, perhaps there is a bug actually multiplying dex in missile rounds.

With The Alchemist, Mikel used Freed's bow +178 or there abouts and even with a TOA and over 1.5M dex could not hit Sut's character in any missile rounds.

So there alone is over 250 PTH and equal evasion still not hitting Sut's mage.

AdminJonathan January 23 2007 6:55 PM EST

Oops, you're right, I do increase evasion dx during ranged.

Empirical evidence FTW!

QBsutekh137 January 23 2007 6:58 PM EST

I am also smoking doobies... Crisis didn't hit me once in round one in seven battles I just rattled off, though maybe he equips bigger ammo at times.

He does hit me in round two, and very regularly in round three, though, so Mikel must have been on even bigger doobies if he thought he hit me in NO ranged rounds. I am very, very touchable in ranged. If Mikel had all that going, he was hitting me. Again, Crisis does.

I also remember at one point in testing where Mikel was hitting me regularly in Round One. He had a very high EC, as I recall, but had to rejigger before free untrain ran out because he needed more balance. At least that is what I figured, you'd have to ask him.

QBsutekh137 January 23 2007 6:59 PM EST

Huzzah! Thanks, Jonathan! Please don't change it! *smile* I needs my Round One survival!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 23 2007 7:00 PM EST

There are evasion walls going up all over, some of us were VERY clear on how evasion works...

Sut, the ToA adds plus, based on tat size, not a blank +50 anymore...

QBsutekh137 January 23 2007 7:35 PM EST

Thanks, novice.

Last Gasp January 23 2007 7:47 PM EST

Simple question... "free untrain" When was that and when will it happen again? :-)

QBOddBird January 23 2007 8:08 PM EST

"excess dex does not lower your PTH"

yes it does; the rule of "100 PTH always hits" is only true for equal dx as well as no evasion, invisibility, etc

-- so if you've got enough DX, you can overcome any amount of PTH (assuming one had an enormous amount of DX, of course)?

Does this also work the other way around, where if you've got enough DX, you can overcome any amount of -PTH (Evasion, DBs, etc)?

Just wondered.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 23 2007 8:31 PM EST

if that's now the case that drastically changes the whole game...

+100 always hits used to mean that you always hit, unless DBS or evasion was in play

I really have seen no result from this, did PTh and DEX become one system at some point we didn't know about?

someone put a +120 weapon on a chanter and try and hit my tank, or CM me first and use a +100...

as to excessive dex reducing PTh...that's spectacular news for me, if it didn't take just one hit to more than halve my dex...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 23 2007 8:38 PM EST

This could explain why even a "fixed" Archery is still having so many problems hitting mages with 1.5 mil dex and massive minus to hit (for a pittance) even when you're whiffing with +200 and 3 mil dex....

AdminJonathan January 23 2007 9:17 PM EST

"+100 always hits used to mean that you always hit, unless DBS or evasion was in play"

no, +100 never meant DX difference was ignored

AdminJonathan January 23 2007 9:35 PM EST

Man, I am not having a good day today.

You're right, novice, even if DX is 1000:1 you will still always hit with 100PTH in the 3rd round of range or in melee.

QBsutekh137 January 23 2007 9:42 PM EST

If by "drastically changes the game" you mean, "makes it possible for a defensive stance to survive against multi-hitting tanks", then, well, yeah, novice.

Thank the maker for such drastic changes. *smile*

Dude, I got arrows coming in at 2 million per hit from the front, and massive MM coming in from behind... I think Evasion is, well, perfect. Let's not forget, I have 1.2 million invested in it. It's my "side" training (smallest trained stat on Joe), and it's still huge. It's not an accident I concentrated so much into one behemoth minion. I'm just lucky the behemoth got a nod from the game so as to respect that focus.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 23 2007 10:45 PM EST

Jon: no worries, you made the game I'm so frighteningly obsessed with, so all is as per normal, completely forgiven.
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