Let HoC apply to CoC/Melee (flame within) (in General)

Flamey January 25 2007 5:09 PM EST

This thread is open to flame. Hard to title this thread so actually read it, please.

Let the HoC change it's effect slightly. Instead of giving an extra hit in round 1, make it an extra hit in the first round that minion gets to deal damage.

Now, for CoC this would be round 4, unless of course the Mage has a ranged weapon equipped (not too smart, but for argument's sake).

Same would go for Tanks that don't have a range weapon equipped, they can get a double melee hit in round 4.

Basically change the way HoC works slightly, this'd still work for FB/MM because they fire first in round 1 and nothing would change for them.

I threw in the Tank part (thanks to GW) to not seem overly bias on behalf of CoC. But, What melee tank would use a HoC over a HoE with the new effect anyway?

Yeah, you're probably thinking the ST boost is better, because I think it is, but the possibility is still there.

I really want feedback, in a nice or aggressive form, I want feedback on it.

Godpanda January 25 2007 5:10 PM EST

I like it. Pretty self explanatory. Give -every- damage dealing minion the option of it.

Question: Should it -also- apply to decay? The intended effect says it would, but should it?

Flamey January 25 2007 5:12 PM EST

Yes, I think it should, that doesn't really bother me, but think of it this way.

Minions with Decay, are 20 HP enchanters, and the Decay is usually base, are you going to choose a HoC over a Corn, just to die quite possibly before melee, anyway?

unless you're a proper Decay Mage, It isn't going to work out for you, over a Corn. :)

Drama [Just for fun] January 25 2007 5:31 PM EST

And what if, especially for CoC, it would make it get 1 hit in range hit. Maybe it could help greatly. I think it could be something to try.

Talion January 25 2007 9:17 PM EST

I like both ideas.

Have HoC allow the wearer an extra attack before his first strike.


Leave the HoC like it is, but just make it so that it allows CoC to fire during the last round of ranged.


QBsutekh137 January 25 2007 11:06 PM EST

I think it should give love to melee magic, I like it.

But then, what about a tank that chooses to only use a melee weapon? Extra hit for them? or a melee hit in Round Three?

TheHatchetman January 26 2007 1:10 AM EST

According to the spell page, CoC has a range of 1... Tho, it says it's 'canonical', which would imply that it could be shot over a distance (I don't recall warships grabbing their captives and shoving their head into the cannon for the kill showing up anywhere in my history books :P). Tho I understand why it would fire later, due to its power...

The Helm of Clearsight sounds like it would just allow minions to fire something off a round earlier as they can better target their enemy with "Clearer sight", so i doubt it should work for melee weapons (unless you want to throw away your weapon in the third round, just cuz you can see the enemy :P). But for the CoC, it would make sence that a HoC would cause a 3rd round sendoff.

Just my two-hundredths of a buck :)

Drama [Just for fun] January 26 2007 2:23 AM EST

Well, what is sure is that, with the HoC, all range attackers get a 25% more damage in the fight, wich is really strong, hard time for melee minions.

And tell me if I'm wrong, but making CoC get the last round of range would not make a big difference from before chrismast change, since what killed the most CoC was the 4 range rounds and if you hit at the last range round, you still get hit by 4 round of range.

TheHatchetman January 26 2007 2:30 AM EST

"Well, what is sure is that, with the HoC, all range attackers get a 25% more damage in the fight, wich is really strong, hard time for melee minions."

Not exactly... Keep in mind that Evasion, and the EH are at their best in the first round. I fight a few tanks using the HoC with no effect, due to the fact that they can't hit my mage. Also, a Mage wall in the back with a +35 MgS, and a +40 EH can bring a MM to a crashing hault in the first round. So, it's not exactly a straight cut to 25%. Though, in general, the HoC is still extremely beneficial...

Flamey January 26 2007 6:08 AM EST

"But then, what about a tank that chooses to only use a melee weapon? Extra hit for them? or a melee hit in Round Three?"

Was answered in original post ;)

"Same would go for Tanks that don't have a range weapon equipped, they can get a double melee hit in round 4. "

AvoidCXT January 26 2007 8:59 AM EST

Heads up, canonical doesn't mean cannon-like, it means cone-like. As much as I want a cannon-of-cold spell, CoC is not it.

Also, remember that attacks do less damage in the first round of ranged combat, so its not quite a 25% increase. It hasn't actually helped my sfbm too much.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] January 26 2007 9:21 AM EST

Not cannon(s), but not cones. ;)

Canonical means "authorized; recognized; accepted" in this case, or perhaps "reduced to the simplest and most significant form possible without loss of generality".

While it's true that it has nothing to do with "cannon(s)", neither does it have anything to do with cones. Even mathematically, it is "(of an equation, coordinate, etc.) in simplest or standard form".

More specifically, "canonical" is "pertaining to, established by, or conforming to a canon or canons; included in the canon of the Bible". There are also literary and musical referents, though these are not really common usage.

th00p January 26 2007 9:26 AM EST

How typical of Bast =)

But, it would only be fair to let the CoC mages fire twice in round 4, but not in ranged as Belle-Ange said because that's just not how CoC is supposed to function.

Kong Ming January 26 2007 10:11 AM EST

Maybe just allow CoC to fire off in the last round of range or 2 hits in round 4. Same goes for bowless melee tanks and decay? 2 hits in round 4.

TheHatchetman January 26 2007 11:25 AM EST

"But, it would only be fair to let the CoC mages fire twice in round 4, but not in ranged as Belle-Ange said because that's just not how CoC is supposed to function."

MM and FB aren't supposed to fire twice... Ranged weapons aren't supposed to aim for 2 different minons in a round (with the exception of ES)... But the ability is afforded to them by the clear sight in which, they can see the enemy earlier, and therfore get an extra round...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 26 2007 11:29 AM EST

Maybe we change the way Clearsight works.

It adds an extra attack round.

On Ranged users, there are now 4 ranged rouns, non HoC users attack from the second ranged round and get three ranged rounds as usual.

On Melee users, there is an extra Melee round, non HoC users attack from the second Melee round. Or, Melee users get to attack from the last round of Ranged, but that would cause problems with having a Ranged and Melee weapon equipped with a HoC.

Total rounds are still capped at 25 as usual though.

TheHatchetman January 26 2007 11:32 AM EST

"Maybe we change the way Clearsight works.

It adds an extra attack round."

Interesting concept there... :P But, that's basically how it works... Unless you mean changing the way combat works...

Flamey January 26 2007 11:59 PM EST

GL that seems pretty similar to how HoC works anyway.

What it does is let you hit your opponent twice in one round. Now if we look at your way, it's like this. HoC user hits once without getting hurt back (bar AMF/GA) then the usual 1st/2nd round where non-HoC users (the opponent in this case) get to hit you and you still hit them.

It seems the same only possibly changing the numbers of ranged combat and melee combat.

Sorry if that middle part didn't make sense.

It is what I've been saying let CoC fire twice in round 4 when equipped with a HoC. Same for Melee Tanks (bowless Tanks).

There doesn't seem to be negative feedback, I guess this idea might just drown because people don't care about CoC and/or its too much work for too little change for Jon.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] January 27 2007 1:52 AM EST

I personally have nothing against melee users (including CoC) getting an extra hit from HoC.

However, my concern is: Do we really want the HoC to be a must have item for both mages and tanks?

It'd be a very overpowered item, but even as it is it gives a significant amount of extra power to ranged weapons when let's face it, it's not like most people on CB needed any more tempting to focus on ranged.

So despite owning one that is very helpful to my particular strategy I'd suggest getting rid of the HoC altogether but if that's not going to be done then at some point melee could do with a bit of a boost.

Arorrr January 27 2007 6:42 AM EST

HoC is fine as it is. It is entended for the first range round. If it is implemented as you wanted, there is no more strategy since every offensive minions will have to wear it.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 27 2007 6:58 AM EST

Ranged doesn't need a boost.

HoC + Junction can give you a silly amount of attacks, either Magical or Physical (with the new HF) right at the start of combat.

QBRanger January 27 2007 11:32 AM EST

The HOC is not fine as is. The fact that you can take out a 4 minion team just in the missile rounds with archery is far too powerful. The HOC should not retarget in the first round. With the significant boost archery has recently gotten, along with the HOC, archery is getting to CB1 levels. Now with the HOC, archery could surpass cb1 in effectiveness, especially with the ability to neutralize opponents GA via DM.

In CB1, one could use GA to help vs archers but that is taken away with DM. With archery and seekers, archers can indeed do massive damage and not worry about much, except for the rare mage that has 1M evasion and there is only 1 of those out there; *wink wink* to Sut.

AdminNightStrike January 27 2007 12:00 PM EST

Minion 1: Archery, Beleg, HOC, ELB, seekers, elven boots, ToA
Minion 2: COC!!!!, AG, CoI

QBRanger January 27 2007 12:17 PM EST

So vs MM characters, the CoC minion will die before he even gets to fire one spell off?

So vs other archers your CoC minion will get plugged with arrows before he gets 1 spell off?

The only thing that it will help vs is non missile weapon using tanks.

Best to use MM on minion 2 if you MUST have a spell caster.

AdminNightStrike January 27 2007 12:55 PM EST


Godpanda January 27 2007 12:58 PM EST

poor NS....

Do you know how very, very few direct hits of MM it takes to kill a CoC minion?

HoC MM minion can deal over a million damage in the first round. Seekers won't have time.

Flamey January 27 2007 5:19 PM EST

It still wont be a must-have.

I run a generic tank, normal levels HP, ST, DX and BL, with a pinch of protection.

Right now, my ELB is kind of worthless, so I don't use it and only use my Melee Weapon (VB) granting me an extra hit in round 4, is NOT going to make me use a HoC, some of my battles last a while, some don't (they kill themselves [GA]).

Sure, it'll mean a CoC mage needs one. But ever since the item came out, We said, Mages and Archers need it, most of the time we didn't bother excluding CoC in the Mage part.
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