FB and HoC (in General)

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] January 31 2007 1:09 PM EST

Archers etc and MM will re - target for the HoC shot if they kill with their first shot. Should the extra shot for FB also get to re - target and not get split amongst dead minions?

QBJohnnywas January 31 2007 1:21 PM EST

I hadn't thought about how FB and HoC work until you mentioned it. Against three or four minions it targets the same minions twice in a row, regardless of battle cry sounding in the middle of the round.

But against two minions it retargets; that is, if it kills a minion in the first strike of the round it doesn't attack them again.


AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 31 2007 1:33 PM EST

that is odd...

I remember FB with a FF having similar issues...

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] January 31 2007 1:46 PM EST

Are you sure about that Johnny? I don't have a 2 minion opponent where I can kill 1 with the first shot. The damage to the dead minions isn't shown but from the damage done it is obvious that it is being split.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] January 31 2007 2:05 PM EST

Wow... I really should pay more attention to my post battle play-by-play.

Didn't even notice that was happening.

I don't see why FB mages shouldn't get to re-target. So I assume that it's simply a bug... or should I say: I hope it's simply a bug.

Not that I'm all for winning fights in the first round or anything but if HoC works this way for archers and MM mages, both of which have as much or more potential to do serious damage as FB mages in round one. Then perhaps FB should get the same.

Personally I don't care much, FB is wimpy in round one anyway and if it's slightly more wimpy on it's second shot I'm not particularly concerned, but when someone does get a decent FB mage in the top ten (or if there already is one..) then it would be a very big deal.

QBRanger January 31 2007 2:05 PM EST


Your assumption should be correct, given the fact that the HoC gives you basically another first missile round.

QBJohnnywas January 31 2007 2:17 PM EST


Diabolik's Fireball hit Killer's familiar [191412], Killer [124367]
Diabolik cries "Yabba Dabba Doo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Diabolik's Fireball hit Killer [195099]

R.I.P. Killer's familiar

There are a couple of these in my fightlist; but I wasn't entirely accurate in my description; it's single minion and familiar, not two minions. Two minions get hit twice in the round, same as multiple minions. But the single minion/familiar combo gets results like above everytime.

So it looks like the FB/HoC against single minion/familiar works like it says on the tin. Just not against multiple minions.

Now just wait for Jon to say 'oh yeah, that's right for FB mages...'

Haven't checked enough to see if the first hit in the spread fire dies on other occasions and is still hit in the second strike though. Haven't seen it yet, but you never know...

QBJohnnywas January 31 2007 2:28 PM EST

Diabolik's Fireball hit The Quiet Place [94753], A Touch of Reds familiar [69288], A Touch of Red [64999], Reroute to remain [88658], Friend [90707]
Diabolik cries "Yabba Dabba Doo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Diabolik's Fireball hit A Touch of Reds familiar [70266], A Touch of Red [104666], Reroute to remain [81115], Friend [75078]
Diabolik cries "Yabba Dabba Doo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Went back to my fight list and just had this in the first round. Notice The Quiet Place in the first strike. Not there in the second. Looks like re-targeting to me....

But it doesn't happen all the time; I've been checking. I'll keep on looking and see how often that happens. Dinner first, then I'll be back.

Whatever is going on, it's not consistent anyway, and I think it should at least be that, lol. ;)

QBJohnnywas January 31 2007 2:35 PM EST

Ok, I'm out of BA. I've just gone through my fightlist. Against some teams I'm seeing re-targeting. Against some I'm not. I've definitely seen the second strike hitting the same minions after a battle cry has sounded. But I'm also seeing a battle cry sound and the next strike not hitting the dead minion.

It's not consistent, but it is doing it. And not just against single minion/familiar.


Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] January 31 2007 2:36 PM EST

"Diabolik's Fireball hit The Quiet Place [94753], A Touch of Reds familiar [69288], A Touch of Red [64999], Reroute to remain [88658], Friend [90707] Diabolik cries "Yabba Dabba Doo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Diabolik's Fireball hit A Touch of Reds familiar [70266], A Touch of Red [104666], Reroute to remain [81115], Friend [75078] Diabolik cries "Yabba Dabba Doo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"" Like I said it doesn't show the hits to dead minions for the 2nd shot, look at the damage, it is still splitting it as though it is there.

QBJohnnywas January 31 2007 2:50 PM EST

I see what you mean. I thought you were simply talking about the re-targeting. Yeah, the strikes should be larger shouldn't they. I'll check with that in mind.

QBJohnnywas January 31 2007 3:05 PM EST

Ok. For me it is definitely doing the following:

1. Hitting four minions first strike. Sounding a battle cry, hitting the same four minions second strike.

2. Hitting four minions first strike. Sounding a battle cry, hitting three of the four minions second strike.

And in the second example, as RD says, hitting them in spread fire as if the missing minion was still there. There is no adjustment to the damage.

QBsutekh137 January 31 2007 3:27 PM EST

Yes, Fireball (DD or familiar) have always settled on number of targets before the round begins. Even an FB mage sporting an FF lost out (since the beginning of CB), because even if the first FB kills 3 of 4 opposing minions, the FF's fireball would still act as if the others were alive (even if not displayed in the shot) and have the damage diluted.

That should be fixed (I feel it should have been fixed a long time ago), and apply to all the HoC rules from there. I never understood why FB's dilution was calculated at the beginning of the round instead of the beginning of the specific shot. I am all for that getting fixed.

AdminNightStrike January 31 2007 3:39 PM EST

Isn't a round supposed to be handled as if everyone is firing at the same time? Everything should be happening at once.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 31 2007 3:43 PM EST

It should, but it doesn't ;)

QBsutekh137 January 31 2007 3:58 PM EST

That would mean all MMs on a team would all shoot at the same person -- if everything were at the same time, two MM mages (or an MM mage and an SF could not know their first target was "soft" and so target different minions.

So, if MM can re-target mid round, why wouldn't a fireball know not to dilute itself mid-round? Or at the very least, between round zero (HoC-induced shot) and round one?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 31 2007 4:32 PM EST

;) It's problematic.

Either, all attacks are made at the same time, and minions with the same style of attacks hit the same target. Or they happen in sequence, which could lead to the attacker havign an advantage over the defender.

Take a 4 Minion MM team facing another 4 Minion MM team, both with enought damage to one hit each other.

If the attacks are made at the same time, all four minions hit the last minion in each team, each round.

If one side goes sequentially, the attacking team would kill all four minions in the defneding team in the first round, before they got the chance to retailiate. ;)

Maybe attacks could be made to goone at a time from either team. So the first attacking minion (or even the first minion...) on the attacking team attacks, then the first minion in the defending team, and so on. ;)

QBsutekh137 January 31 2007 4:47 PM EST

Targeting in no way changes the timing of blows.

Even if someone attacks me, and kills my mage first round, my mage still attacks _that round_. Inter-round dynamics do not change. This change would be intra-round dynamics. I don't see it as problematic at all. Just because an FB mage changes his targeting dilution has nothing to do with the fact that those he kills still get to hit back that round (even coming back to life, in the case of VA or TSA usage).

I have never understood why FB works the way it does, see no reason for it not to be "fixed", and see nothing problematic about it.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 31 2007 4:53 PM EST

Wish I could find the old threads about this stuff...
I can't remember if we even got an answer.

QBsutekh137 January 31 2007 4:53 PM EST

GL, MM is already sequential within a round. If I were an MM mage with a junction to an SF, I could kill a team with four minions/familiars in one round (if each MM resulted in a fatality). Currently. All of those opponents, though all dead, would still get to attack in that first round, however. If they returned the favor, that would be a draw. There would be no way to have draws other than AMF backlash, GA, and RoBF (the passive damage dealers) if battles gave any sort of attacker/timing advantage. It's more like innings in baseball -- each team gets their "fair ups", even if they are losing (dead).

I am not understanding your angle?

QBJohnnywas January 31 2007 5:21 PM EST

Nov, I've been through the first nine months of posts, admittedly only by title for the majority, so if FB wasn't mentioned in the titles of the original postings you're talking about then I wouldn't have looked.

I did find this one:


Sut mentions GL going into detail. I'll look through GL's posts and see if he did any posts on the subject. May take a while though, seeing as how GL has posted more than anybody else in the history of the game.......;)

QBsutekh137 January 31 2007 6:00 PM EST

I don't know about GL going into detail (not sure where I said that?), but I remember Black Card Situation being an FB mage with an FF, and whichever one shot second did not capitalize on the first one killing targets. Dilution was decided at the beginning of the round, and I have never understood it. I do not recall Jonathan ever commenting upon the spreadfire phenomenon in CB.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 31 2007 6:48 PM EST

I've posted about FB spreading damage over 'dead' targets ages ago. ;)

FB does indeed take the target alive at the start of the round to work out it's spread.

Sute, slight miscomunication. I think the spread targetting for FB shouldbe changed. I was just talking about attack sequencies.

I'm pretty sure if you kill an opponent in a round, they don't get to attack you. I'll go test that. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 31 2007 6:50 PM EST

Hmm, no. Dead opponent still get the opportunity to attack you in that round... There was something that made me think they didn't, but I can't remember what it is! ;)

QBsutekh137 January 31 2007 7:14 PM EST

GL, I hope you are drunk.... If dead opponents could not attack back, then attackers would have always had a HUGE advantage over defenders. *smile*

Go feed Emma. *smile*

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 31 2007 8:08 PM EST

the real question is did it work that way in cb1...

QBsutekh137 February 1 2007 10:13 PM EST

Was what always that way? The round dynamics have not changed, except for HoC retargeting mid round.
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