Mages really don't have it that bad. (in General)


Nerevas February 3 2007 6:18 AM EST

I just wanted to make this known.

IndependenZ February 3 2007 6:19 AM EST

How come?

QBJohnnywas February 3 2007 6:21 AM EST

Yeah, don't leave us hanging lol. Please explain. ;)


I happen to agree with the statement btw, but I want to know what prompted it.

Nerevas February 3 2007 6:43 AM EST

1)There's alot of experimental potential for mage strategies that just doesn't get attention.

2)You don't have to be rich to be effective.

3)You can focus your $$$ into a much smaller range of items. Can you imagine a mage with the same 300mil+ networth as some of the top10 players, except all into a single item like a pair of DBs?

4)You automatically get Awesome Points™ for playing a mage strategy.

5)Mages are the underdogs. Being the underdog makes victory that much sweeter.

6)The game is alot more fun when you back off the hardcore competitive play style and play a strategy that's cool and unique for you.

Underage Drinking February 3 2007 7:28 AM EST

sounds like what you are saying is that if you cant beat a mage in a fight your strategy is worthless

muon [The Winds Of Fate] February 3 2007 7:35 AM EST

Yup, that's what he's saying.

lel February 3 2007 7:36 AM EST

not really. If you look at PM's old strat he was unbeatable

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] February 3 2007 7:48 AM EST

Nerevas, it is true that there are advantages to using a mage and I do agree with the points you've made.

However the main debate on the subject seems to be whether a mage can realistically beat a tank with equal PR.
It's this question that seems to convince most that mages are simply weaker.

In my opinion the answer is not relevant.
There is far more importance on other deciding factors that should be considered, the main deciding factors are player experience, intelligence and last (and least) NW.

However to put it bluntly, yes tanks pack a little more brute force. A crude tank strategy will beat a poor mage strategy.
Although if you have any real expectation of achieving any particular goals (like for example reaching the top ten) then it's no longer a matter of choosing the most powerful strategy but the best strategy for your particular situation. For example if you're in the mid to high PR ranges and most people happen to have tanks, and likewise strategies to counter tanks, a mage will be far more successful than a tank.

In conclusion, a tank is tougher but this point shouldn't even be a consideration in deciding your strategy at any point.

Underage Drinking February 3 2007 8:20 AM EST

a mages short fall is that they dont have a use for weapon allowance, given you can go to town and have a weapon but it does squat.

Reignmaker [Battle Royale] February 3 2007 9:50 AM EST

1. Can you give us an example?

2. Yes you do.

3. No one has said that mage had weapons, they would upgrade linearly like tank weapons. But since mages do have only a few items they can upgrade, they smash into the expensive curve very, very quickly and that is why statement #2 is wrong.

4. Purely opinion. It seems to be you get more like "Get Your Butt Handed To You" Points.

5. Eh, I guess that's true for some people.

6. There's no shortage of mages. If you're a mage chances are you're not unique. Hell, even the ToA + ELB + CoC idea isn't unique anymore.

QBRanger February 3 2007 10:00 AM EST

1) Mages always hit. No need to worry about dex.

2) Mages can spend their cb2, after upgrading their AG and COI to an appropriate level, on DB to counteract tanks PTH.

3) As I have always said "You cannot dodge a FB", mages always hit. (yes, I said this twice, but it is a key point of a mage strategy)

4) Mages DD spells are typically far far higher than your opponents AMF, so you will do more damage than your getting back.

5) Evasion rocks. Just ask Sut. Tanks need to use archery or BL to be effective. Yes, one can use UC or Evasion on a tank, but they are 2nd tier skills for successful tank.

6) Using a TOE with a mage makes AMF backlash almost laughable, and the same applies to GA as well. Tanks typically need a TOA to stay competitive with dexterity so they take tons of GA damage.

7) Mages have the only attacks that hits every minion on your opponents character-FB and COC. While COC is still a poor choice, it does effect all minions.

8) While tanks have a Weapon Allowance (WA), they still need to spend tons of CB2 upgrading their weapons. Mages can get by with less cb2 investment. Some people persist to say that a mage is lagging behind since they do not get to use the "free" WA given. What a crock. Mages have their own built in weapon allowance-their spell.

Reignmaker [Battle Royale] February 3 2007 10:06 AM EST

About the ToE, that's hogwash. I've run multiple mage teams and I've tried ToEs on all of them. ToE definitely doesn't make AMF and GA laughable. And you've forgotten about MGSs, EHs, and seekers. And to make evasion good to dodge attacks at a really high level it has to be high, which means less into DD and HP and more getting hurt from backlash.

muon [The Winds Of Fate] February 3 2007 10:21 AM EST

"1) Mages always hit. No need to worry about dex."

Yeah, but tanks usually hit a few times per round... And they can buy chance to hit.

"2) Mages can spend their cb2, after upgrading their AG and COI to an appropriate level, on DB to counteract tanks PTH."

And you have your MgS and EH... I don't quite see how this argument flies. The money spent on AG/CoI is, due to the exponential upgrade curve, always going to be "constant" in that after a certain point, it is not cost effective to upgrade. Whereas, it is _always_ cost effective to upgrade certain tank items (especially weapons). Now, if it were "we have one item (DB), you have one item (say, MgS)" then fine. But, unfortunately, this is not the case... indeed, you have a whole "free skill" (experience wise) in terms of your weapon allowance. Sure, in order to be successful, a tank _has_ to spend a _lot_ of money to "train" that "weapon allowance skill", but you take my point - this is USD territory.

"3) As I have always said "You cannot dodge a FB", mages always hit. (yes, I said this twice, but it is a key point of a mage strategy)"

And, as I said before, you always hit 3 times; except against other tanks (or some really huge DB's - but doesn't a really huge MgS do the same for tanks vs mages?).

"4) Mages DD spells are typically far far higher than your opponents AMF, so you will do more damage than your getting back."

Hehe. Right, nice argument PM. No offense, but that is profoundly provincial. That's just like me saying "Well, usually your damage output is higher than opponents' GA, so you will do more damage than you're getting back." The argument doesn't fly, for two reasons: the previous statement is true, and mages have to content with AMF and GA! Heh.

"5) Evasion rocks. Just ask Sut. Tanks need to use archery or BL to be effective. Yes, one can use UC or Evasion on a tank, but they are 2nd tier skills for successful tank."

Yup, no argument here. This is one point where mages come out one ahead (although I guess you could consider evasion and AMF to be balancing factors for each other to some some extent).

"6) Using a TOE with a mage makes AMF backlash almost laughable, and the same applies to GA as well. Tanks typically need a TOA to stay competitive with dexterity so they take tons of GA damage."

Hehe. No. Tanks don't need a ToA to stay competitive. That's like saying that all mage teams need a SF to stay competitive - in which case we'd take heaps of both GA and AMF damage.

"7) Mages have the only attacks that hits every minion on your opponents character-FB and COC. While COC is still a poor choice, it does effect all minions."

Whoa... SoD with explosive shots anyone? And you admit that CoC is basically a negative use of experience.. but FB I agree. It's nice. But, you can't upgrade it infinitely with nothing more than USD...

"8) While tanks have a Weapon Allowance (WA), they still need to spend tons of CB2 upgrading their weapons. Mages can get by with less cb2 investment. Some people persist to say that a mage is lagging behind since they do not get to use the "free" WA given. What a crock. Mages have their own built in weapon allowance-their spell."

Haha. No. I disagree with your last point. Simply because the WA "skill" if I can use such a term can be "maxed" by spending USD. The "built in weapon allowance" as you put it... well, no. It has a _hard cap_ for any given MPR.

------------------

But, while I disagree with most of your arguments, the end result I do agree with: for people like myself who do not wish to spend USD on the game, the mage is the better option. From what I can tell, you are correct in saying that to be a competitive tank, you pretty much have to spend lots of money.

And, furthermore, the game is balanced so well that even though it is the better choice to go tank if you have the money, the truth is that it isn't a whitewash. It is still close, and mage teams can be _very_ competitive.

So, yeah, we don't really have it that bad.

And, for mine, I think that if people are willing and able to spend large sums of money on the game, all power to them (so long as it doesn't get to the point where to be competitive I would _have_ to spend money - which, I am happy to say, I don't see happening any time soon).

Well, it was fun...
Cheers,
muon

QBOddBird February 3 2007 10:28 AM EST

"Yes, one can use UC or Evasion on a tank, but they are 2nd tier skills for successful tank."


Whhaaaaaaa??

UC is king, it's no 2nd tier skill.

>.<

AdminNightStrike February 4 2007 8:51 PM EST

"Mages can get by with less cb2 investment."


What you are missing is that mages have no choice with respect to spending cash. I have boatloads upon boatloads of cash. I made the comparison once that I could dump $175m into mage gear to equal some big tank (Dawg?) that had a $175m weapon. However, it would not do anything remotely near the boost that something that big should -- one point to the DD % boost, perhaps. Sure, I could put it into a set of DB, but the discussion at the time was in regards to increasing damage output. A mage has no available option to increase damage output faster than a tank can increase damage output.

Therein lies the real crux of the matter that no one ever acknowledges, despite how often I bring it up (except Sut, of course) -- that is, regardless of anything else going on, this game is not about the size of your character, but the *rate* of *growth* of your character. That's important to understand. Until people start grasping that concept, these discussions over balance become ambiguous.

The take-away is that when building a character, you need to grow faster than the characters around you. I'm currently a running mate, if you will, with kevin. He started his NCB a few days before me, so we're on par. He's a mage and I'm UC. I'm growing faster than he is, however, and so we both acknowledge that I will eventually overtake him.

When things get down to the wire, a mage certainly can be on top of a tank -- but he can't hold it, as a tank will always grow faster. Given enough time, the mage will lose ground and sink. THAT is what needs to be addressed. THAT is the argument that requires discussion.

Show me how a mage can increase his damage output faster than a tank. Please. I want to know. I sincerely do.

Flamey February 5 2007 12:31 AM EST

You say that rate of growth matters, If so why don't you just be bigger than your opponent Tank? be higher in MPR or PR, beat them like that.

I believe that argument is moot.

It's balance not growth, equal PR a Generic Single Tank will most probably beat a Generic Single Mage.

But, I agree with the fact Mages cannot boost there damage output.

I don't know, but I still see a Mage team beating a Tank team. (without a wall)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 5 2007 3:10 AM EST

No Flamey, it's growth.

You can't just be bigger than your opponent. Even if you have a larger MPR and PR as a Mage than the Tank team you face, how can you know what thier PR actually is (to make a valid comparison) when they have 40 Million or more NW of PR hidden by the Weapon Allowance.

Also, conisder being equal. You both gain the same amount of XP, and have the same MPR.

As a Mage you can *not* artificially inflate your PR through cash as easily or as fast as a Tank. Linear Weapon 'X' made sure of that.

Flamey February 5 2007 4:29 AM EST

Okay, that makes sense.

Kong Ming February 5 2007 4:43 AM EST

I just tried my NCB character (for the fun of it) and I notice mages have a tough time in lower ranks unless you go multi minion early. Even so, a tank is able to fight "higher" up than a mage. My PR is a lot lower than those that I'm fighting and I slaughter mages that are twice my PR.

QBsutekh137 February 5 2007 10:26 AM EST

Yeah, funny, and I thought the WA was there to make sure tanks on the smaller end of the scale could compete. Sounds like they are doing just fine.

Why does the WA need to be so large again? Anyone? Not only are tanks able to do fine, they are able to fight higher up and get better rewards. That is the part that is irreversible and unacceptable. Then again, I suppose I should just wait to see how well Mikel does on this newest NCB -- maybe targets will get tougher to find and growth will slow in a month or so...

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] February 5 2007 10:39 AM EST

NS, Sut etc, its pretty simple - tanks are for USD spenders/ traders, bankers etc, they do better at more cost, mages are for the rest and can compete, just not quite so well but without the large amount of CB$ ;)
What I would really like to see is how they compare on the same bankroll with the same person running 1 of each simultaneously.

QBsutekh137 February 5 2007 11:13 AM EST

I have been asking for ideas on what a bankroll would have to do with anything on a mage for more than a year now. The answer is always "DBs".

So, assuming much of the cash in a tank vs mage team scenario would go into similarly-sized walls/PL sinks (which has nothing to do with the tank vs mage discussion), you then have the remaining cash being pumped in the weaponry for the tank, and DBs for the mage (once AGs and CoI are as high as they can reasonably go). The mage cannot increase damage output using cash once his AGs and CoI are at a certain level (in fact, damage output based on MPR will be more expensive as well, following the natural exponential increase that all training involves). Additionally, the mage has no offense-supporting enchantments he can use, while the tank can use GS and Haste (why do you think so many mages end up punting with DM? There is simply nothing else to reliably invest in, even as a "gravy" option).

So, once we reach that "saturation point" where both teams have the same supporting PL and/or walls and/or tattoos (probably a familiar for the mage and ToA for the tank) and the mage has pumped up everything he can, it boils down to weapon vs DBs. In ranged, the mage will have the edge, since Evasion and DBs can be used to almost nullify round one of ranged and make rounds two and three be a shot-for-shot exchange (because of the Evasion multiplier there). But sadly, once melee hits, the mage is done. DBs alone cannot keep up vs weapon plus and ToA pth (that ToA pth tacked on the top is absolutely killer), and the defensive dexterity from Evasion can't pace with a tank's dexterity once the multipliers are gone. The tank will start getting two hits per round (at least), one from the pth and one from the dexterity, and will be hitting as hard as the mage (with no MgS or EH to reduce his style of damage, unlike the poor mage).

Both teams have the ability to fire off an enchantment to reduce the other: AMF vs. EC. But only the tank has the advantage of casting something that actually harms/kills the mage (AMF backlash) -- another disadvantage to mages. High enough AMF can make an SF/FF/IF almost useless, as it kills itself rather quickly.

Just FYI, recently Crisis has gotten to the point of landing arrows on me in Roune One of ranged (I have removed him from my fight list), so Hubbell is pretty much a done idea soon (that's with an Evasion of level 1.5 million, effect 132). Without going to a conventional, high-AC wall structure (which simply won't work for Hubbell because the supporting minions are too small, and I haven't got the NW for it), Hubbell will not survive. Moving kill slots to the front doesn't help because the HoC allows two kills in one round (these arrows hit for 1.8 million damage against 138 AC), not to mention that means capitulating to my MM enemies who are laying down extreme damage back to front. And adding minions doesn't really help because I cannot train anything on them to support my offense. All I can do is become a mage-buster (switch to all AMF), a tank-reducer (by going all EC), or RoS/ED-buster (stick with DM). Meanwhile, a big tank/wall doesn't have to choose -- he can beat everything because he can use USD to make the sky the limit.

So, Hubbell has reached that "saturation" point -- DBs are the only thing left to buy. Of course, I tried to buy DAWGs big boots (I bid all the cash I had), but Popsicle Man wasn't going to allow that (he isn't even wearing them on his main character last I checked), so I can't even adequately play the USD game unless I am prepared to take out all the stops and spend thousands (which I am not going to do). If anyone else has a better idea for my current character (I am not going to start an NCB and try all this again), I'm all ears.

AdminNightStrike February 5 2007 11:17 AM EST

"how they compare on the same bankroll"

Rubberduck, you need to understand that we have been down this road before. If I took all of my 200+m cash and dumped it into mage-boosting gear, I would not be able to increase my damage output as much as can a tank. The race in this game is damage output -- who grows it, and how fast. I don't know how to relay that anymore.

Sut, tag me out....

Darkwalker [Jago] February 5 2007 11:22 AM EST

er.... maybe... it just means that everyone should be a tank?

QBsutekh137 February 5 2007 11:23 AM EST

Ye gads, what a whiner! Sorry, folks, I just re-read that, and I didn't mean for it to sound so plaintive. Basically, I was agreeing with Rubberduck in the fact that USD is a tank-specific thing. But at the same time, I want to dispel the myth that a USD mage can compete with a USD tank (all other expenditures being equal). Sure, a mage team that spends a million dollars on a 500 AC wall will be able to beat tanks, but if the tank team also spendsa million dollars on a 495 AC wall and the rest of the cash in weapon +, he would win.

So yeah, tanks are in the USD playground, and that is cool with me. There's still other fun stuff to do and participate in, and the NCB has really fired up a lot of people (which is great!) So, again, I apologize for my previous post being so whiny, that wasn't its intent! *smile*

QBsutekh137 February 5 2007 11:24 AM EST

NS, already took the tag, just didn't type fast enough -- I am with you 100%, and have the battle scars to prove it on Hubbell.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] February 5 2007 11:32 AM EST

I agree with you, at the top end with the rather silly imo amounts of money being spent a mage cannot compete even with equal USD expenditure. However at the other end say I took a ncb tank and mage char up from scratch with no bankroll which do you think would end up more powerful?

QBsutekh137 February 5 2007 11:38 AM EST

With the current amount of power the WA hides, I would say I'm not sure. Tanks get better rewards, so that is a bonus right there.

Also, there is no such thing as an NCB "from scratch". If you are starting an NCB, you likely have some weapons, armors, etc. at your disposal, making it all the easier to leverage a tank's (partially hidden) power. If you are talking NUB, then I would still say "I don't know" because a NUB gets a lot of cash to play with inherently.

Adminedyit February 5 2007 4:25 PM EST

I like Rubberduck's point. Say that Sut and I were to each start a character tomorrow from scratch. You go mage, I go tank. We can only use the $ we make from rewards from fighting. No USD, no loans, no gear from previous characters. Using just the $ from rewards. Taking USD out of the picture the mage should (note I say should) be stronger. The tank will have to spend its rewards buying and upping gear, weapons, and buying BA. The mage will only have to spends its rewards buying and upping its gear and buying BA. This should equate to the mage being more powerful.

QBsutekh137 February 5 2007 4:42 PM EST

I think they would be quite even at first... For a lot of reasons. First off, each would be able to find decent targets up high to beat, assuming the same amount of work and expertise goes into that.

Starting with no cash and only using reward cash on an NCB would mean one thing for both teams: no BA buying. You wouldn't be able to afford it, except maybe, just maybe, if you fought 24x7 outside of the BA purchases.

After a while, the same effects seen with USD would affect two "pure" characters, it would just take longer (as NS has already said in other threads). Eventually, the mage would have nothing to spend money on other than DBs, while the tank could keep upping + and x.

QBRanger February 5 2007 4:53 PM EST

Hmmm,

I see to remember a mage character named Koyaanisqatsi that competed with all the top tanks. And beat all but stalemated Jayuu.

Hire 2 more minions Sut and then continue to post.

Until then stop.

Even a 2 minion tank team is not as good in most cases as a 4 minon mage team of equal MPR.

Also, about those DB's I have. It was a great deal and I do use/need them if Jayuu does things different. My old set of +151 NW 44M were available for 22.5M and you passed on them.

QBRanger February 5 2007 4:56 PM EST

Or hire a wall and spend all that CB2 upping its armor. Then go TOE. Nobody except those with a high VB could even kill that wall.

QBsutekh137 February 5 2007 5:55 PM EST

Sorry, PM. I'm not going to stop posting.

What was Koy's net worth when he competed so well? Oh yeah, a lot.

As I have been telling CMers all morning, it isn't the offense as much as the wall. Believe me, if I had Koy's wall at my back, I would already be owning the top five, at the very least. My MM can't get through it, so there are a bunch of mage teams that can beat me now that would no longer be able to.

And since I apparently need to stop posting (rude much?), why don't you tell me what you would do with one monster minion and three smaller minions, each with a single, 800K level capability. Exactly what good would an 800K-HP wall do? Last I checked, your wall had THREE TIMES that level of HP.

Not sure why some folks have trouble understanding -- I'm not going to build a wall because I haven't the net worth to waste on protecting a measley 800K in HP.

And PM, I don't have a problem with you buying the boots. It was a job well done, and I have no doubt you will use them (I just said you weren't using them now, that's all). And I find it inconsistent at the very least least and braindead at worst that you tell me (nay, demand as a requirement to further posting!) to buy two minions in one breath, but chastise me for not spending 22.5 million on your lesser DBs... Which is it dude? Unlike you, I'm not going to just keep on spending money. I am concentrating on the minion-buying right now, and don't have a spare 22.5 million just sticking out of my back pocket.

In summary, instead of simply telling me to stop posting, why don't you tell me what you would do with the extra minions and a limited amount of net worth. With buying two more minions, that would make my minion expense ALONE be right around 90 million. You then have the audacity to tell me I need to build a WALL out of one of them? To protect 800K in HP? Your wall costs 70 million in NW. No, that's not what it would cost to get there with instas, auctions, etc., but it would still be likely 30-40 million...another 30-40 million _I don't have_.

Stop using USD entirely and remove any gear that you got via USD PM and then continue to post.

Until then stop.

QBRanger February 5 2007 6:06 PM EST

Let us clear up one point.

My wall at 380 AC did not cost an arm and a leg. I forget how much the NW was but I think your have close to it right now.

My wall also had only 800k hp at most. My wall now is my main tank which I am trying a different strategy. Just before we had free untraining/retraining my wall only had 500k hp. Phantom Link is a wonderful skill.

O yes, 20M was enough to bid on my 44M NW DB's but not 22.5M. Stop whining, they were a steal even at 22.5M.

My NW when I was fighting Jayuu and Freed was about 1/2 theirs. I had an artificially elevated NW since I still had a 60M NW axbow sitting around on my character doing nothing from the days of TAB.

Either buy DB's and use your money there, or buy 2 minions.

Right now you have 1 super minion and 1 nice minion. 2 more minions would be lesser ones. Exactly what i had on Koy when it was a mage.

Since you want a strategy spoon fed to you here it is:

Hire 2 more minions.

Keep your top minion as it is.

Make your 2nd best minion all AS.

Make your 3rd and 4th minions a wall with all hp and your last minion AMF with HP on it. A wall backed by a TOE only needs about 360 AC to beat most characters, just ask Little Devil. Who has limited funds the last I heard and is doing very well.

Use a TOE, rent AC like LD does. Learn PL on your AS and AMF minions.

OR....
Buy DB's and upgrade the crap out of them. If you want to borrow my new set, please feel free, just ask and you can see if they will help. When I ran Koy I did not need DB's except to protect vs seekers.

But do NOT say a mage cannot compete at the top vs tanks, since I have proven they can with 1/2 the NW. If I did not waste money on excess stuff, I would have done it with 1/3 the NW.

There is just one caveat... seekers. They are the unbalance in the whole game. But your evasion should take care of all but perhaps 1 or 2 characters.

QBRanger February 5 2007 6:18 PM EST

Also,

If not for seekers, i would still be running Koy as a mage.

I had gotten its NW down to 176M and still beat everyone but Jayuu who stalemated me. And of that 176M, over 70M was from my tattoo.

I could have gotten my NW down to 145M but would have lost to 3 people, beaten everyone else.

I fail to see your point about things. Done right a mage can compete at the top, or at least compete equally NW for NW. However it is almost a requirement now for a mage that is not a single FB mage to use a wall to give yourself enough time to blast through your opponent.

Mages have it very nice in that only the + on armor works vs the magic damage AND DD spells always hit.

Dark Dreky February 5 2007 6:38 PM EST

::applauds while taking notes::

QBsutekh137 February 5 2007 6:41 PM EST

With all due respect, I think your ideas would not necessarily work with my minion setup, and I think you still do not understand how truly wimpy my extra minions are. That's not even mentioning the understanding of the fact that I simply haven't got the cash, especially after minion buying.

Here's point by point:

================

---->Since you want a strategy spoon fed to you here it is:

I never asked to be spoon-fed, and IIRC you pride yourself on being a great community persona, clans-person, mentor. Is there a reason you would not offer ideas to me like you offer to others?

---->Hire 2 more minions.

OK. As soon as you give me 10 million dollars, I will by two minions. Until then, I have only the cash for one. I am more than 10 million short, actually, for a second. But yeah, I need minions. Thank you for that spoonful of nourishment. Yum.

---->Keep your top minion as it is.

That is what I would like to do, and need to do, and the very lynch-pin of what causes the new minions to be that much less useful. But I do agree. Joe needs to stay as-is.

---->Make your 2nd best minion all AS.

Hm, a 1.2 million level AS. So, we are disregarding DM as a threat, apparently, and not worrying about the fact that my current 1.2 million level DM helps me add several people to my fight list? OK. Any more you can put on the spoon to assure me that a direct exchange from DM to AS will give me net victories? I.e. what leads you to believe it would work better for me?

---->Make your 3rd and 4th minions a wall with all hp and your last minion AMF with HP on it. A wall backed by a TOE only needs about 360 AC to beat most characters, just ask Little Devil. Who has limited funds the last I heard and is doing very well.

Funny you mention Little Devil. How well do you think Little Devil will do when I pile on an additional 1.2 million DM, entirely neutralizing all of his DEs? I'm asking because I honestly don't know. He's still going to be tough as nails, even at that point.

Third minion a wall...yeah, we've been over this. You are still talking about cash _I don't have_, and even if I didn't buy BA, would take many, many months to accrue.

Fourth minion, sure, that's all gravy at that point. I'd probably go GA instead of AMF -- I am decent at beating mages just because of my size.

---> Use a TOE, rent AC like LD does. Learn PL on your AS and AMF minions.

There's the crux...switching to a ToE. I can't remember if Koy, back in the day, was just a single mage for offense or not. Was there also a tank in there? I'm not sure you realize how slow things get killed when all I have is my one mage. A mage not wearing a CoI, no less (or are you saying I depend only on ToE aura?) The SF does a tremendous job on cleanup, and would utilize the AS more effectively, no?

I see your point, I really do. But it depends on some things I am not convinced of (and don't have the resources to test -- again, don't have a lot of extra cash, not even for things like transfer fees, etc.): using EDs and using ToE. I fear DM, because I see what my DM can do to other teams that depend on it. And yeah, a ToE would be nice, but I lose a lot of offense (especially if I wear it on my mage), and my tattoo isn't as big as yours -- it gets overwhelmed that much easier.

============================================

I am confident that a Junction/HoC/AG minion is the best choice for my next move, leveraging what I already have, not costing me much. Maybe I will think about making minion four a wall, but that would take 30-40 million more than the money I already have, plus the 10 million I already lack for a fourth minion. In other words, I am 50 million away from a decent wall, and am still skeptical of it's effectiveness.

The DBs are always an idea, again, limited by cash flow. I don't need to borrow your boots, I know how well the 150s worked.

Sorry, I posted again.

QBRanger February 5 2007 6:51 PM EST

Background on Koy.

Mantra played this character as a single FB mage to about 750k MPR then hired minion 2. At the end of trhe NUB, about 1.25M MPR hired minions 3 and 4. Mantra used a FF during his run with it.

It was a FB mage until I bought it, and made it CoC.

Then during the first free retraining, at the urging of Little Devil, I tried MM and was shocked at how well it worked, but after Jon made changes to it.

Until the most recent free retraining, Koy was never a tank based character. I did have a minitank/major wall as we all know.

Now recent activity on Koy:

During the latest free retraining I tried many things. But remember I tried them all using a wall. I still believe a wall is the key to a successful mage. Vs NWO's strategy which is awesome in its own right.

First i tried the Junction/HoC/AG/SF thing. Much worse then the TOE. Lost to about 8 people I used to mop up.

Then tried the SF without the Junction and used the xp from junction on GA. Lost to about 5 others I used to beat.

Then last tried the SF thing with pumped up AS. Lost to about 5 others.

IMO, the TOE is uber for mages. Especially with a wall.

However, once NWO gets his Junction minion with a HOC and AG, I will be very closely watching how he does.

Arorrr February 5 2007 7:29 PM EST

Umm.. why does everyone keep arguing? Can't they remember the first few months of CB2 when mages with CoBF owned the biggest and badest tank? We don't want to go back to that era.. eh?

Nerevas is right. Mages don't have it that bad...

muon [The Winds Of Fate] February 5 2007 7:39 PM EST

Arorr, you may be right (I wasn't around back then), but that isn't the point.

You are saying "We don't want to go back to it being massively unbalanced" and I agree with that sentiment.

I think that is why this argument is occuring; because a few people (myself included to some extent *cough seekers*) think that there is an imbalance in the game mechanics, that tilts toward tanks playing with USD.

I'm not sure that the discussion seeks to _achieve_ anything other than to get opinions on the mechanics from other players - and discussion is never a bad thing.

If Jon sees it as a problem, he will tweak. Otherwise, he will leave it as it is.

QBsutekh137 February 5 2007 8:35 PM EST

I am watching NWO too, and NWO is one reason I went with DM (Tezmac, Kaiser, Dixie Cousins, etc. were others.

On closer inspection, I was interested to see how little DM is being used. I didn't realize I had the second highest DM in the game, and that DM is far less than the number one. No wonder there is so much AS up here!

As I have stated before, I dislike AS/PL/4-minion teams the most, just as some sort of irrational dislike. Comes from those lesser minion days when any old AS/GA team could beat me by simply existing. I'd love to make it so that such a team can't exist in the Top Ten. A weird goal I suppose, but those teams remind me of CB1 (including the team I ran there -- had the number 1 and 2 AS spots for a time), and I don't want this to be CB1.

The ToE is going to have to be something I consider at some point, but the wall would come before that. The rentals point is a very, very good one, and one I always forget.

Thanks for your input, Popsicle Man.
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