Interesting Mage vs. Tank Comparison (in General)

Relic February 22 2007 2:13 AM EST

Round one of Ranged between my single minion FB Mage and Mikel's single minion Tank.

Gebil's Fireball hit Sting [985256]
Gebil cries "You're on fire!!"
R.I.P. Sting

Sting hit Gebil with The Bow of Mikel [1166423]
Sting struck deep into Gebil with The Bow of Mikel [1300417]
Sting cries "I'll always be King of Pain!"
R.I.P. Gebil

At the time of this battle my MPR was 1,560,260 and Mikel's was 678,574, less than half my MPR.

His tattoo is larger than mine, but his is capped somewhere I would guess very close to my own Tattoo level. (Around 2.1 million)

I have an evasion of 668,691/526,529 (93) and a FB of 3,518,302/3,169,642 (445,078).

His PR rating stands just over 1 million, while my own is just over 2.1 million.

I have more than double the MPR and PR and still we draw. Maybe the NW allowance could stand a slight correction, because it appears that he is gaining a tremendous benefit from his ELB, while paying no PR price for its benefit. The PR added to each of us lies mainly in our Tattoo NW.

If I put the same NW that he has in his weapons into EB, DB, or AG my PR rating would suffer tremendously as a result. Perhaps mages need an armor allowance (pure mages that is) to help combat the NW allowance?

I am not trying to stir up trouble, just bringing a few things to light and get a healthy discussion to take place with objective and well thought out ideas.

Flamey February 22 2007 2:17 AM EST

His Max tat should be around 1 mil, because.

Max tattoo: 1,386,394 and my MPR is 915k.

He was beating me at less than half my MPR, but you know what NW does. He put money into the game and now he's getting something out of it. But I agree, Mages can't pump that much NW into anything and get no PR gain, please do not say DB they'll raise your PR. though they work and are a great money sink.

Nerevas February 22 2007 2:30 AM EST

Something to note:

Mikel has 675k hp. You overkill him big time with a single hit.

You have 1.5mil hp. He needs the double hit to kill you. Your dispel is wasted versus him. Your evasion is worthless in this case because its too low and he overpowers it by a large degree. Very simply put, as far as your strategy versus his, he's got your frickin' number man. His networth just lets that shine sooner than later.

Nerevas February 22 2007 2:31 AM EST

Whoops, I meant to add: If your evasion was higher or you had some DBs to reduce him to a single hit- you would be beating him. At least for a while.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 22 2007 3:07 AM EST


"You have 1.5mil hp. He needs the double hit to kill you. Your dispel is wasted versus him. Your evasion is worthless in this case because its too low and he overpowers it by a large degree. Very simply put, as far as your strategy versus his, he's got your frickin' number man. His networth just lets that shine sooner than later."

That can be applied to every single Strat in this game, as, as a single Archer with just Archery and the Intrinsics, nothing is wasted. Ever.

So we go back to CB1's Single ELB using Archer dominance.

Weee.... Great fun.

AdminNightStrike February 22 2007 3:34 AM EST

MPR: 737,666 Max tattoo: 1,107,099

AdminNightStrike February 22 2007 3:37 AM EST

Glory, how much MPR does your DM add? Remember that your actual PR in this battle against Mikel is not what's displayed on your home screen.

QBJohnnywas February 22 2007 3:37 AM EST

Weapon allowance. Weapon allowance. Weapon allowance.

It affords Mikel a huge invisible PR.

But also, Belegs and ELB are just incredibly good.

Too good some might say.

noneedforthese February 22 2007 4:21 AM EST

I don't think single ELB archer will ever dominate, as long as AoI exists.

I can beat mikel, i know it's nothing great considering i'm 1 mil MPR, but i'm not even wearing a tat, and the only worthwhile item i've got is an AoI.... our PRs are even similar ;)

If I had my old junction/HoC, that means I'd have shot 9 MMs before he killed all my minions... 70k~ damage from each, and bam we got a stalemate (i'm not even going to count my GA here)

Uh, mind you he can kill alot more tasty targets than i can.

That aside, moot point - if you've got kill slots, single ELB wil still struggle to beat you, you've got 3 rounds of grace! of course, if you're CoC you're still screwed, but that's a whole another story :)

And just to stay on topic - yea, weapon allowance seems a little unbalanced

noneedforthese February 22 2007 4:22 AM EST

wait, he's using seekers, my GA is the only thing giving me the win haha

Nerevas February 22 2007 4:26 AM EST

If anything it could be argued the weapon allowance is too high, but not that it shouldn't exist. Otherwise why have weapons at all? Why not, like mages, we just have "strength" be a tank's weapon? Because different is good. A tank needs xp (strength), AND networth (weapon) to create offense. A mage just needs xp. So clearly there is a required networth amount for any given pr that a tank's weapon *MUST* have for damage to meet an equal level mage's damage whereas the mage needs no networth for it. And if you put more into your weapon than that, you will begin to exceed mage damage. So we see that a character's power comes from experience+networth. Your networth is nonexistent.

Kong Ming February 22 2007 4:29 AM EST

I do agree that nw allowance for weapons should be trimmed down to size ;)
Imagine if he hires another 3 minions later on, he'll have more kill slots and will eventually win against most teams except for a few.

QBJohnnywas February 22 2007 5:14 AM EST

NW and weapon allowance has given me much higher rewards than I would have gotten as a similar sized mage. Because so much more of your PR is invisible.

Adminedyit [Superheros] February 22 2007 5:19 AM EST

didn't a thread like this just die?

Flamey February 22 2007 5:32 AM EST

"That aside, moot point - if you've got kill slots, single ELB wil still struggle to beat you, you've got 3 rounds of grace! of course, if you're CoC you're still screwed, but that's a whole another story :) "

Look at my team, 4 minions, RoS/AS, he kills me in 3 rounds.

>>> HoC <<<

yep, doing 1 mil a hit, it doesn't really matter, HoC allows him to retarget in round 1, so he kills off two of my minions with round 1, round 2 kills my 3rd, round 3 kills my Tank. Mind you these are with quad hits or whatever, most probably triple.

Adminedyit [Superheros] February 22 2007 5:41 AM EST

Too many of these threads lately is like Beating A Dead Horse

QBJohnnywas February 22 2007 5:45 AM EST

yeah, Ed, it's the dead horse

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] February 22 2007 7:44 AM EST

Yes, I think the WA is a bit big.

BTW Mikel's defensive arrows are [11x14] (+21) costing about 205 cb$ each!

Mikel February 22 2007 7:52 AM EST

Ok. Several things aren't being taken into consideration.
First the Elb is a +101 (and named), my seekers are a +21 and my ToA is capped at slightly less than 1 mil. The Belgs are +13 and named which allows me to get away with a smaller trained ST. My dex is over 1 mil with the ToA equipped.
Almost all of my WA is in my Elb, if you get me into melee, it will take me a while to beat you down because the weapon is small and my ST is small as well. With out the ToA equipped, you win and my DB's are useless against you. Even if I put all of my ac on (TSA, MgS, EC) my dex is still above one mil and you still win. So with all of that said, it's the bonus PtH from the ToA that does you in.

Relic February 22 2007 10:05 AM EST

Just a few more pieces of data to consider.

My max tattoo is 2.6 mil, which is way over my 2.2 mil tattoo.

His tattoo is indeed being capped at around 1 mil.

Dispel Magic: 389,005/394,929 (311,204). Not that much exp trained into DM.

The example I gave above of a two hit kill against his minion Sting, is rare, he usually kills me in one hit. He is in effect taking out a character twice his size in one hit, that has a tattoo double the relative effect of his own.

From my standpoint, the Weapon Allowance seems to more than make up for any tattoo capping that is occurring in his case.

Yes, I could probably throw on some huge DB, but then I would lose a lot of DX afforded by my Evasion and my PR would force my rewards to nil.

QBsutekh137 February 22 2007 10:25 AM EST

I don't know who should beat whom, that's a tough one, especially considering single-minions (it's hard to really tell one-on-one...)

All I want is for Mikel's true "power" to show.

Weapon Allowance allows too much, meaning tanks get better rewards. It's an imbalance.

And I, for one, will keep beating the dead horse every chance I get. The horse is getting killed and beaten for a reason, edyit -- each passing day means NCB/NUB tanks are getting better rewards than mages, and that's an imbalance.

Change the WA.

QBsutekh137 February 22 2007 10:28 AM EST

Actually, to be more calm and empirical, can anyone show me an up-and-coming NCB mage with a score PR ration close to Mikel's? By "mage", I mean mage team. Doesn't have to be single...

I tried doing a similar comparison at the top, but the results were pretty much crap. I don't keep my eye on the up-and-comers enough, so if anyone can compare score/PR ratios of teams using magic for offense vs. tames using physical damage, that would be great. It is the rising-through-the-rank folks that are the ones to watch anyway, since that is where the rewards are being harvested and offering such huge growth.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] February 22 2007 10:34 AM EST

Mikel is a good example of why score snap shots can be misleading. Sure he can hit up very well and hits some chars with a score way above his PR but he uses a defensive set up with ToA and upgraded ammo which can skew his score quite a bit at times.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 22 2007 10:46 AM EST

Mikel, just one question. Why do you drop your armour for a ToA on defense? Is it because you can kill nearly as well without the ToA and dropping the increased PR from the Tattoo gives you better rewards, while the increase to PR means very little to the rewards you get on defense from people attacking you while you're not fighting?

Relic February 22 2007 10:49 AM EST

All the things that Mikel is doing is fine by me. Good on him for getting such great rewards and fighting up. However, I along with Sut think that his "real" PR should be the basis for his rewards. Either we should reduce (fix) the WA or possibly calculate PR based on current NW modifiers as well as possible average damage per round?

A tank that can quad hit two separate minions for 1 mil each hit in the first round should imo, have a higher PR than a mage that can hit those same two minions for only 800k per hit. The effect is the same, but the damage capabilities are not even close.

I am not certain this could be coded effectively or fairly for that matter, but it is something to noodle on.

QBsutekh137 February 22 2007 11:09 AM EST

Glory, tanks can also miss, though. The largest ELB in the game being shot by a decent-sized tank misses my mage minion (most times) with seekers. Evasion is a wonderful thing. *smile*

Trying to base PR off of some sort of dynamic battle log would be very hard to code and would be like Jonathan dictating strategy. If someone has a strategy particularly suited to beating someone else, they should get credit, not have their total PR artificially changed to reflect it.

There are two parts to total PR: MPR and NW. And there is one exception to total PR: the weapon allowance. Just lower the weapon allowance to reflect the true "power" of weaponry, and then left folks play on an equal-reward field. *smile*

QBRanger February 22 2007 11:25 AM EST

Yes Sut,

But... The largest ELB is on a minon with archery not fully trained. I believe it is about .40 or so, far from the 1.0 max it can be.

Just wait till it is maxed out, you will be hit and destroyed in the first round.

The missile/elb vs melee damage discrepancy is for yet another thread, but when the largest elb at less x then the largest MH does over 3 times as much damage with normal arrows, something is a bit overpowered with missile combat.

QBsutekh137 February 22 2007 11:48 AM EST

I don't disagree, PM, but I can hardly expect to NOT be destroyed by a team with nearly 900 million NW, can I?

I can always train more Evasion...probably won't pace with the capabilities of his NW, but then that is an entirely different dead horse that has been regularly beaten too. *smile*

TheHatchetman February 22 2007 12:30 PM EST

"Look at my team, 4 minions, RoS/AS, he kills me in 3 rounds." --Flamey

If you expect to have a successful melee-based team, a wall of some sort is almost necessity...

Mikel February 22 2007 6:47 PM EST

Let's back up here, do you really think it's fair that you just put exp into DD and you should rule? My Elb is my DD, so I've put more money into mine than you have your DD, so I should get more bang for the Buck, otherwise we'd all be playing a mage team of some sort.

GL, If you caught me wearing armor, then you just have bad timing, I switch between my RoE + Normal Arrows and ToA + Hyped up Seekers and that is all. Wins on defense are free xp for me, if I had used my RoE I would've probably been beaten anyways, so I use the ToA and try to overwhelm players, you have to realize that players that hit me are 1.9 mil and up in score, so having 1 mil PR isn't much of a factor in my rewards that I get from them.

QBsutekh137 February 22 2007 7:15 PM EST

Mikel, I never said I should rule (if you are talking to me). My "campaign" has always been about proper representation of "power". Put all the cash you want into it. Just don't expect special, subsidized rewards because your total PR appears to be smaller than it actually _is_. That's my point, not world domination... I'll leave that to you and Ranger. *smile*

Relic February 22 2007 9:13 PM EST

Never once have I said, that I should beat you Mikel. I understand what putting major amounts of USD into items is all about. However, I feel that if you are able to beat me, logically it could be argued that the WA is too high, or the PR effect of big weapons (specifically ranged weapons) is too small. Just asking for a little more balance in the PR department and rewards departments that is all.

muon [The Winds Of Fate] February 22 2007 10:40 PM EST

Sutekh, to answer your response about a score to PR ratio similar to Mikels during NUB...

well, I wasted most of my NUB. But in the last two weeks, i had an MPR of about 260k with a PR of about 360k (if I remember correctly) and had a score upwards of 1.2 million at one point (though usually at about 900k - 1mil) - with character Atrix Nemoir.

For a period of about two days, Mikel was on my fightlist when he had about 220k mpr (i think, not certain; in any event his score was the same as my own at that stage - look it up on his graph if you can be bothered). And I had greater than a 90 percent win rate against him.


AS - AoF, MCM, etc
AS with some Junction - AoI, HoC, SF (260k levelish)
DM - AoF, etc
GA - nothing (leathers, that's it).

My networth was about 6 mil at the time (I can't afford to buy corns or ags or anything nice like that ;-)

So, five minions, pretty much in my first round, I did a fair bit of damage to him and he killed my SF thanks to seekers. During the next couple of rounds my GA mopped up.

So, I mean, with my strat, I was getting about 3xscore to PR, which is similar to Mikel, I guess. And I wasn't spending huge amounts of money on equipment.

But, of course, my strat - while useful against single archers like Mikel - has a major downfall: DM. But meh, no such thing as a perfect strat.

As for rewards, well, I've never been rich but that's because I wasted my NUB.


AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 23 2007 3:13 AM EST

"GL, If you caught me wearing armor, then you just have bad timing, I switch between my RoE + Normal Arrows and ToA + Hyped up Seekers and that is all."

Thanks mate! ;) I just wondered. Never considered swapping out a diff tat for defense.

It makes sense, the RoE adds nothing to your PR while a big ToA would. Which really makes no difference on being attacked.

QBJohnnywas February 23 2007 3:21 AM EST

While the WA is part of this, it's also the ToA PTH, and physical damage. I was doing this with Diabolik. At the same MPR I hit 2 million score (check my graph for proof), with an x1000/+15 ELB and +11 Belegs. None of which were named. I was hitting an average of a million per hit. What gave me the edge on score was my evasion, which let me take on much bigger tanks, because obviously they couldn't touch me.

With a ToA and an ELB you don't actually need archery to do well......

QBJohnnywas February 23 2007 3:23 AM EST

Sorry, just looked at the standings; Mikel's just edged over the score I had. But my PR was much smaller, (blow my own trumpet! LOL) because of the WA and my much smaller bow..

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