Question about evasion and EC? (in General)

QBRangerFebruary 26 2007 3:17 PM EST

Now we all know that evasion is lowered by EC.

But in missile rounds, is evasion first multiplied then EC applied, or is EC applied and then the resultant level is subject to the missile round multiplication?

TalionFebruary 26 2007 3:38 PM EST

I would imagine that EC is applied before Evasion is multiplied because it is listed before the fight even starts. Since the Evasion multiplier varies from round to round, it would make sense that EC is applied directly on the actual Evasion level and not on the multiplied level.

However, I have absolutely no way of proving this theory.

horseguy001February 26 2007 3:45 PM EST

I agree with Talion on this one, since the EC effects stats before the battle begins. So when you actually enter the battle I would guess round three of range would be calculated (Evasion - EC) * 3, and similar for the other 2 rounds of range.

MiandritalFebruary 26 2007 5:54 PM EST

I disagree.
I believe that first Ethereal chains is applied to the trained Dexterity (including item effects). Then, evasion-granted dexterity is added to the previously mentioned dexterity on a per round basis.

Why?
Because evasion is recalculated for each round in ranged. The evasion effect varies for the ranged rounds, so it doesn't make sense that "(Evasion - EC) * 3" would be the formula unless EC is also applied per round, which I don't believe it is. Also, believe it has been previously stated by Jon that defensive dex is added directly to the actual dex, which is why the negative dex values are shown, despite the fact that they are treated as 0 (or 1 or 20, who knows?). This would imply that ethereal chains is only calculated once, and evasion is applied afterwards.

If that is confusing to you, don't worry. I can't really understand it myself.

horseguy001February 26 2007 7:16 PM EST

Well what I meant by (Evasion - EC) * 3 was just an example for the first round of ranged.

Say you have a trained evasion level of 200 with some arbitrary effect, that gives you a defensive dex of 600 in the first round of ranged.

Now since EC casts before that battle actually starts, say 100 in this case, wouldn't it make sense that your evasion level is now 100 pre-battle and defensive dex is 300 in the first round of range?

QBOddBirdFebruary 26 2007 7:23 PM EST

With the same logic, you could say it is just (Evasion formula) - EC. No matter the round - and this involves no extra recalculating, as that would be done within the parentheses.

smallpau1 - Go Blues[Lower My Fees]February 26 2007 7:24 PM EST

Why does my tank always miss in melee to Herbstwind's NCB? That is all he has trained on that minion, but should it really be enough for my tank to miss every melee shot?

MrC[DodgingTheEvilForgeFees]February 26 2007 8:15 PM EST

"That is all he has trained on that minion, but should it really be enough for my tank to miss every melee shot?"

Yep.

90% EXP into defensive DX vs what I assume is less than 30%, I'm no good with numbers but I'm pretty sure that'll have you missing every round.

It's a pretty big sacrifice to train nothing but evasion on a minion. If he's going to do that then the advantage of being able to beat characters like yours is entirely reasonable.
If it's so important to beat him, train your DX high enough to score one hit on him per round, the EXP cost will be far less to you than it is for him.

smallpau1 - Go Blues[Lower My Fees]February 26 2007 8:33 PM EST

right now its about 50% DX, its just my armor gear raises my STR very high

smallpau1 - Go Blues[Lower My Fees]February 26 2007 8:34 PM EST

maybe around 2/5, it is s alittle less than 50%

QBOddBirdFebruary 26 2007 8:43 PM EST

*shrugs* That's still a lot less exp devotion.

smallpau1 - Go Blues[Lower My Fees]February 26 2007 8:55 PM EST

i just looked again, and yea you were right, its is about 30% exp into my own DX, =X

[T]VestaxFebruary 27 2007 1:23 AM EST

small1, you are a bit off topic.

My best guess is that Evasion is first reduced by EC and then multiplied. This guess is based on how Jon tends to do calculations for other similar situations.

AdminNightStrikeFebruary 27 2007 1:44 AM EST

"I disagree.
I believe that first Ethereal chains is applied to the trained Dexterity (including item effects). Then, evasion-granted dexterity is added to the previously mentioned dexterity on a per round basis."

This is correct. EC reduces DX first to some number (possibly negative.) Evasion then raises that by a certain amount each round.

If it didn't work this way, then you wouldn't have to train EC as high as you do to hit in ranged.

AdminQBnovice[Cult of the Valaraukar]February 27 2007 3:42 AM EST

EC takes dex into the negs, which acts as a minus to the defensive dex granted by evasion.

TalionFebruary 27 2007 2:19 PM EST

I hate Evasion... LOL!

Well, this will definitely make me reconsider how I use EC. I always thought the EC penalty was applied before the fighting started. Well, it is, but not the in way I thought. Sigh!

Still, EC is a powerful thing when you reach combat rounds. Since it also helps you reach those combat rounds against tanks because of the ST reduction, I don't have to adjust my strats too much.

bartjanMarch 1 2007 9:44 AM EST

I doubt Evasion is affected by EC. If it was, then Tank Killer would do melee hits against me, as his Ec has a higher effect than my Evasion (if I unequip the amulet). But no, he fails to land a single hit in melee against my 20DX (-700k after EC) enchanter.

miteke[Superheros]March 1 2007 9:53 AM EST

That may be because of your AxBow reducing MY dex.

bartjanMarch 1 2007 10:00 AM EST

You're right. D'oh!

You did 9 hits in 6 melee rounds. My Evasion is 614k (90), and you targeted minions with base DX. I also was wrong in my previous post about my Evasion being lower than your EC (I forgot the negative effect of my AoF).

bartjanMarch 1 2007 10:02 AM EST

miteke, against a 20DX opponent with no evasion, how much melee hits per round do you expect?

AdminNightStrikeMarch 1 2007 10:41 AM EST

"Now we all know that evasion is lowered by EC. "

I do not agree with this statement. EC affects DX and ST, which indirectly relates to the defensive DX granted by Evasion. But to say that EC reduces evasion implies that EC reduces not just the defensive DX, but also the PTH reduction. This is not the case, I do not think.

QBOddBirdMarch 1 2007 3:41 PM EST

Right, NS, but isn't this whole conversation speculation? I've seen little factual basis, just opinion.

Now I have seen a lot of that opinion presented as though it WERE fact....could we get some links to back up claims? I'm interested in the answer to this question, but not in everyone's opinion as to what the answer probably is.

AdminNightStrikeMarch 1 2007 5:30 PM EST

Enchant Offense
Ethereal Chains
Training cost 91
Decreases targets' ST and DX. Besides the obvious advantages when they attempt to strike you, EC can help your own Minions achieve double or triple strikes thanks to the EC-caused DX gap.

From the Train page.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0022Vr">Question about evasion and EC?</a>