Two Skills on One Minion? (in General)


Fanta [Fanta's Forge] February 26 2007 11:55 PM EST

I think allowing two skills to be applied on one minion would open much more variety and strategy to this game.

For example -

Mage: Junction + Evasion
Monk: UC + Archery, UC + BL
Tank: Evasion + Archery, Evasion + BL
Enchanter: Junction and PL

And whatever other (logical) combination.
I didn't put Archery + BL or because that'd be overpowered IMO.
UC + BL would be nice though :)

QBsutekh137 February 27 2007 12:03 AM EST

Sounds awfully tank-heavy...

Evasion + Junction isn't really all that helpful for a mage, unless it is a single-minion mage. Otherwise you are learning Evasion on a minion that is really just a tattoo holder (because your "real" mage is wearing a CoI). I suppose the tattoo holder _could_ be made to take advantage of the Evasion, but not nearly to the extent that a tank could benefit from Archery plus Evasion...

My opinion, anyway.

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] February 27 2007 12:26 AM EST

Although it could seem like a tank bonus, it could also benefit mages if tanks started training evasion along with BL or Archery...

[T]Vestax February 27 2007 1:16 AM EST

Saying a benefit for Tanks helps Mages is sort of like saying nucular missiles for Korea helps Japan.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] February 27 2007 1:21 AM EST

Whoa! Vestax returns!

[T]Vestax February 27 2007 1:24 AM EST

Oh, yea.. hi.

By the way small1... your off topic again.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] February 27 2007 1:27 AM EST

"Saying a benefit for Tanks helps Mages is sort of like saying nucular missiles for Korea helps Japan."

Tanks training more EXP into a stat that doesn't have any effect vs mages and having higher scores from fighting other tanks is bad for mages, how?

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] February 27 2007 1:29 AM EST

Archery + BL would be an ugly combo for anybody but the person using it, who it would obviously extremely help! There, topic enough? =P

[T]Vestax February 27 2007 1:38 AM EST

Good point.

The real question what is how much xp would actually be tossed into Evasion. The truth is, next to nothing compared to now. People would rapidly realize that just because you could have a BL-Evasion Tank, doesn't mean you should. It's a waste of xp on a minion that already spreads itself thin.

What would really happen is tanks would train both BL and Archery instead. Both are cost effective for the xp you spend and spells big trouble for all mages out there.

So yeah, I'd still say it's a benefit that favors Tanks most.

Shelingar February 27 2007 5:00 AM EST

Oh I don't know ... archery plus evasion on a single minion tank would be nice ;)

That aside, I think it would be better not to allow this. The whole point now is to make a decision as to what you want... its about trade offs - the advantage of archery for ranged OR do more damage in melee OR take evasion to try and live longer vs tanks and so on.

Now if there was some kind of penalty for taking two skills (a bit like having a shield and a two handed weapon) then perhaps something like this could be made to work.

"Tanks training more EXP into a stat that doesn't have any effect vs mages and having higher scores from fighting other tanks is bad for mages, how?"

Personally I'd probably try evasion / archery. Since my biggest weakness at the moment(vs comparable MPR) is single minion evasion mages/tanks, the addition of the archery bonus would perhaps allow me to smack down some of the people I lose against now ... including single mages.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] February 27 2007 5:05 AM EST

Picture this:Single Evasion/Archery tank with ToA, HoC, Belegs, big EBS, huge ELB.
Small tanks have no chance in hitting that and the tank will kill a 4 minion team in 3 rounds.
Now lets place that VS a single mage with, SF HoC, AGS, EBS and Evasion/junction.

Which one will win it?


MMM nice balance.

muon [The Winds Of Fate] February 27 2007 6:33 AM EST

Henk: Easy, the tank will win. The ToA gives enough PTH that the tiny tiny evasion that the MM mage is training will not count for anything. At the moment, a tank with such a setup (training either BL or Evasion instead of both) against a MM mage training Junction will still win. Even if it trains evasion (wasted XP against the mage), it still does PLENTY of damage thanks to the weapon allowance ;-)

With the HoC and bloodlust, and with a BUNCH of networth into the Elbow (need less strength) the tank manages to kill both the mage and the steel familiar in the first round of archery. OUCH!

And against other tanks, the "bonus" evasion helps.

So, while there are both advantages/disadvantages given to each, it would put the boot firmly into mage teams, imo.

Cheers,
muon

Phrede February 27 2007 6:38 AM EST

I think three skills aught to be allowed but only for Tanks :)

muon [The Winds Of Fate] February 27 2007 7:05 AM EST

Hehe.

But, on a more serious note, perhaps the two skills allowed thing would work, if each of the two skills suffered a smallish (say 5% each) penalty to trained experience. That way there are two disadvantages: xp dilution and lowered xp effectiveness.

This provides the player with the choice of a more diverse strategy at the cost explained above - thereby sustaining balance whilst increasing diversity.

Perhaps?

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] February 27 2007 10:18 AM EST

maybe allow 2 skills, but require one to be junction, so that junction is not a mage only skill

QBsutekh137 February 27 2007 10:23 AM EST

Just so folks understand how large Evasion has to be to be effective, I'll use Mikel and myself to illustrate...

I have an effective Evasion of level 1.5 million and counting, and effect of (133).

Mikel has an ELB worth 40 million (nothing to sneeze at, but also not uncommon). He has Archery, uses a ToA, and a lot of that bow NW is in pth.

He hits me around 15-20% of the time in round one of ranged. That's the round where Evasion gets the biggest multiplier, and where most other tanks can't even touch me.

He doesn't hit me lightly, either. I have so-so armor for a mage, and his arrows (they were seekers when I tested) hit me for 1.5 million damage. As soon as Mikel can last two rounds, he will me able to take out the largest minion in the game with two shots, against massive Evasion multiplied by the ranged factors. The MPR of his team currently is about one-third that of mine, and less than half of the MPR on my mage.

I don't think a 40 million-dollar ELB is all that aberrant. Indeed, Mikel is a great tactician (his x/+ distribution on the bow is just about perfect, I reckon), and I am not saying any of this to detract from that. But Evasion has very real limits against a smartly-upgraded bow, archery, and ToA, even in the rounds it has huge multipliers helping it out. I anticipate in a month or so he will be able to hit me around half the time in round one, with blows nearing 2 million damage. With the HoC in play, that means my mage (largest minion in the game with largest Evasion) will be dead in one round.

muon [The Winds Of Fate] February 27 2007 10:28 AM EST

It's all fun and games until seekers get involved ;-)
Good points Sutekh, and well made.

QBsutekh137 February 27 2007 10:37 AM EST

Aw, come on, Pit...mages can't have a single thing that is more exclusive to them? I'll make you a deal... Mages will share Junction if tanks will more-effectively share:

Haste
BL
Archery
VA
GS
exbows
axbows

as well as these anti-mage-specific items:

MgS
that TSA replacement I can't think of the name of right now...

You get on that, and I'll campaign for Junction being more equitable for tanks. OK? *smile*

muon [The Winds Of Fate] February 27 2007 10:42 AM EST

Elven Hauberk is the name of it. On a related note, flamewind's character F1Test uses a Trollskin Armor on his SMFBM. Interesting idea...

QBsutekh137 February 27 2007 11:17 AM EST

Yeah, TSA is great for making up for AMF damage... My problem with it was that when you get hit by blows doing 1.5-2.0 million damage (and multiples), making back 100K HP doesn't mean a lot. *smile*

QBOddBird February 27 2007 11:51 AM EST

Then perhaps it is time for the 470 AC CoC mage with a PL battery! =D The future of mages!


oh wait, VBs.

QBRanger February 27 2007 11:53 AM EST

Too bad AC does not lower AMF backlash as that is a major problem using CoC, even with a PL battery and a huge TOE.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] February 27 2007 12:36 PM EST

there's one difference between all of those and junction sut, all of those are negateable where junction isn't.

QBsutekh137 February 27 2007 12:49 PM EST

Archery is able to be negated? (see my post above about Mikel)

BL is able to be negated? BL is simply free damage. There is not direct foil to BL other than the standard tank foils. Notice I didn't talk about EC and such because I didn't bring up the biggest mage foil of all: AMF. You know what Junction does against AMF? Not much. Makes the familiar kill itself quicker in some circumstances, in fact. Tanks don't have to worry about suicide -- there is nothing suicidal in ANY tank foils (a huge imbalance, IMO).

So no, Junction cannot be directly negated, but the abilities it transfers can be. One wouldn't expect there to be a direct foil for Junction when EOs already take care of applying to all enemies.

In other words, if you want to fight Junction, learn a tad more AMF. There's your answer.

Not to mention, there are still no direct foils for MgS and EH, and there are NO tank-busting equivalents for those items that a mage can use. It astounds me that anyone can complain about tanks being short changed on ANY front: tattoos, skills, enchantments, items, WA... Oh my, poor tanks! Ridiculous! Tanks have the most choice as far as EVERY aspect of the game goes.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] February 27 2007 12:53 PM EST

ok ok, archery and bl cant be negated, but for all intents and purposes they are required for tanks. Some mages do use haste to help cut down # of hits from tanks. And while there are more choices for tanks, there are also more detriments to tanks. And GA is harmful to tanks, mine dies to it a lot, but it also affects mages. But then ToE helps quite a bit as far as preventing a mages suicide.

muon [The Winds Of Fate] February 27 2007 12:53 PM EST

They pay for the privilege, but you are correct, imo.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] February 27 2007 12:58 PM EST

thats the balancing factor imo, more choices, but more detrimental factors as well

muon [The Winds Of Fate] February 27 2007 12:58 PM EST

Pit: you're correct, but your argument is somewhat flawed.

ToE cuts down on AMF backlash (and damage taken in general), but tanks can also use ToE and receive useful damage reduction (without having to worry about AMF backlash).

GA hits tanks, but it also hits mages.

EC needs to be _huge_ in order to be useful against tanks, AMF is always useful.

Archery and BL can't really be negated (huge DB's and huge MCM's in each case; doesn't really cut it imo).

I mean, wherever you can point to a mage advantage, you can point to a tank advantage that equals or betters it. You cannot say the same about tank advantages and being able to find a mage advantage to match every one.

The only thing that adds balance here is NW. Tanks pay for their advantages, Mages don't require that input of USD.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] February 27 2007 1:02 PM EST

i would argue that, but i dont want to hijack fantas thread, and due to the fact that it's been unresolved in other threads as well.

QBsutekh137 February 27 2007 1:04 PM EST

Good points, yes, they have to pay...

As far as tank-detrimental things...here they are:

Evasion: Huge bane for tanks, boon for mages. No argument from me. Evasion is far more useful for mages, IMO, and I think that is totally awesome and warranted.

# of hits: Mages always hit, but only once. Tanks can miss entirely, but hit many times when they do hit. Again, I am going to side with the mages on this one. When it comes to good strategies, the guaranteed hit often means more than the no-hit/mult-hit tradeoff for tanks. Maybe I am only saying that because I can afford a very large Evasion, I'm not sure. But missing an entire round as a tank is not only negating a lot of stats, it is potentially negating a lot of net worth.

However, sometimes I hear tanks complain that aren't really tanks. Like the ToE tank teams. Sorry, ToE folks, but if you are trying to be a tank, or use DEs to be a strong tank, then I have no pity for you. If you are doing that then you are trying to do it all, trying to beat everyone. That's a luxury I don't even have, mainly due to PL, MgS, and EH -- those things eat me up!

Whenever I try to check balance, I _always_ compare a full out mage (that means CoI, AGs, HoC) to a full out tank (ToA, ranged weapon, HoC). I am not sure how any other comparison can...compare. And when I compare those two things, I see King of Pain coming up the ranks. I'll let you know as soon as he starts beating be. I can almost guarantee that he will be able to beat me even when he has a fair amount less total PR than me. The bow will hide in the WA, and he'll probably build some mage walls to truly ruin my day (without having to train a lick of AMF). The MgS exemplifies it all, pretty much: name a single item that can be used by a mage to specifically negate tank damage (even to the point of forgoing the need for EC)?

muon [The Winds Of Fate] February 27 2007 1:09 PM EST

Good point ;-) Sorry fanta.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] February 27 2007 1:16 PM EST

sut: how about dbs

Karn [Hell Blenders] February 27 2007 1:39 PM EST

I borrowed PM's +201 dbs once and put them on my mage and Mikel was still able to hit him once doing over 1 mil damage using seeker arrows.

QBsutekh137 February 27 2007 1:48 PM EST

Karn covered it... DBs, even the largest in the game do not do that much better than just a big evasion (because the curve gets steep around an effect of 130). DBs do, however, help in melee. Not sure what good that would do when Mikel kills my huge mage in round one, though...

And let's be clear here...those huge DBs cost a whopping 87 million. If I wear them and they help, then they SHOULD work. That is a huge NW that doesn't get to hide in the weapon allowance (though the PR weight is at least lower than other armors...).

Adminedyit February 27 2007 4:24 PM EST

Another WA argument :( OK Tanks _NEED_ weapons. No getting around that. Tanks also need to train a minimum of 3 stats HP, ST, DX, all of which add to PR. Mages only _need_ to train 2 stats HP, DD, which also add to PR. Now if I have to train 3 stats which add to PR why should I get added PR for a weapon which I _must_ use?

(My apologies Fanta for being off topic)
As for 2 skills. Almost any skill (PL being the exception IMO) needs a good sized amount of exp to be useful, why dilute it by having 2 skills.

TheHatchetman February 27 2007 4:29 PM EST

I'm surprised nobody mentioned how with the ability to train 2 skills, the AoF would quickly become the most valuable item in the game...

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] February 27 2007 4:30 PM EST

compared to how much nw in mikel's weapon? dbs cancel out weapons of equal to higher nw cause the weapon needs x as well as + whereas the dbs only need +. just because they don't work in a few extreme examples, doesn't mean they don't work

Godpanda February 27 2007 4:39 PM EST

Sorry, unless you want to give mages two skills first, then this is, quite simply, unfair. That was the problem all along with BL and Archery. They -don't- dilute a tanks exp. They channel it. Sorry, but two skills is just ridiculously unfair.

Then, taking into mind how Junction and Evasion are the two most expensive skills, you can't say it really -helps- mages, and you definitely can't say it helps is out the same amount as it would help tanks and walls.

Just my 7 BA.

QBsutekh137 February 27 2007 5:14 PM EST

I didn't say they didn't work. I said they aren't all that much more effective than high Evasion and decent EBs (and a LOT cheaper).

And edyit, once again I am not saying the WA need be abolished. I said it is a place where tanks get to hide total PR, meaning they get better rewards, and I don't think that's fair. All I want is for the WA to be reduced so that a tanks true "power" is realized when it comes to the "their score"/"your PR" reward ratio.

muon [The Winds Of Fate] February 27 2007 6:30 PM EST

Personally, I'd be happy if seekers were abolished and that was the only change made. Remove seekers, and the status quo is returned.

Tanks can "seek" other tanks using ax/exbows, mages can hit everyone using FB/CoC. Tanks can't seek mages (no seekers), mages can't seek tanks (ever seen a mage try to use an axbow?)

Other than this, I think the various things are balanced quite well. Precariously, to be sure, but well.

<kicks the dead horse one more time> "Gallop, damn you!" ;-)

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] February 27 2007 10:27 PM EST

Okay, I already said specifically that Archery and BL would be too strong.

Ban that combination, and I see no real imbalance here...

And Godwolf, it's not like mages _need_ two skills. IMO, pumping Evasion is good enough, really.

But I do agree that mages might need something, like AMF backlash reduction, as a skill. I think as of now most mage teams use ToE's for this purpose, considering there's really no other way to reduce it.

QBsutekh137 February 27 2007 11:30 PM EST

AMF backlash reduction! NOW you're talkin'! *smile*
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