Reasonable Mage Change Suggestions (in General)
February 28 2007 12:42 PM EST
Well, we're certainly all tired of the dead rotting corpse of that horse known as tank-hating so I, in spirit of change month, have decided to try and get some REAL ideas for mages. I'm just going to shoot a bunch out there... and I think these are reasonable.
1.) Slightly lower WA (... quiet tanks! this is a mage post! that will help us)
2.) Give a chance to have AoI's trump seekers/slayers (maybe a % that they miss) or
2b.) Make seekers do slightly less damage or maybe make them un-upgradeable or nameable (I know that won't happen)
3.) An AMF reducing item (other than ToE) or any sort of mage specific item that maybe reduces physical damage (MgS style or even EH style have it reduce over ranged rounds because these single archers are running wild)
4.) A skill? (prob not gonna happen as junction is considered a mage skill, so I won't bother suggesting one)
5.) Make CoC viable... somehow. I don't care how.
Well, I wanted to add more... but I forgot my really good ideas that prompted me to write this post. Anyone else?
** Disclaimer **
No flames allowed. This is not an anti-tank post so tanks please do not add why you think a suggestion is stupid or whatever. Mages, no attacking tanks just put your suggestions so we can try and make something happen for change month!
February 28 2007 12:53 PM EST
Erm, instead of lowering WA... maybe just make it non-linear, with the end result being the same at the top (sort of like the DD-nerf where lower DD-levels did less damage but then became normal at higher levels)
Coding realities aside, CoC might be made viable again if it gave a % chance of "freezing" your opponent(s) for the next round, negating that attack. Of course, you still have to live long enough to get to melee, but it would make for a new strat.
I guess one idea that I can think of would be to let the Aol be upgradeable where each plus on it gives a better chance of avoiding seekers arrows. Not sure it this is a good idea or not though.
Rather than adjust WA, which would be an acceptable solution and I run a tank, I think it would be better to roll weapons under the same umbrella as armor, providing a PR boost based on +s and Xs.
And toning archery down a bit would be nice. Some of the damage out there is a bit over the top for the characters PR. The ONLY defense against archery right now is a large evasion (or maybe 4 minions + familiar if you arrange them just right and his archer does not have a decent hand weapon too).
February 28 2007 1:30 PM EST
Archery/Evasion update: Mikel is up to hitting me 40% of the time, and the arrow hits (with seekers) are very near 2 million damage per.
Be aware, we are talking about a 75 million dollar bow here, no small potatoes!
-- We are also talking ROUND ONE of ranged. He will soon be at the point with an HoC (he only needs a 50% chance) that my mage, the largest minion in the game, will be dead in _one_ _round_, even though I have the highest Evasion in the game (the obvious foil to Archery, as I understand it).
-- We are talking about a team that, even now, over his WA, has less than half my total PR.
-- The specific minion has less than half the MPR of my large mage.
-- My mage has AC that should reduce damage by around one-third...his hits are still approaching 2 million per hit.
Like I said, though -- 75 million dollar bow. I'd like to think that is an aberration, but as the game goes on, the number of bows north of that NW will only increase (that's the thing about weapons -- they only get bigger). My Evasion? Can't grow a whole lot more...at least in no way that can pace to weapon +, ToA +, NW growth, etc.
I actually don't think the bow + is the biggest problem -- that stuff's expensive and non-linear, just like learning Evasion or wearing DBs. But the pth inherent to the ToA that just keeps growing... Tack that on and I don't see how a ToA archer can be stopped? Then there's the damage. Sure, ranged is only three rounds, but with the HoC (with round one re-target), doing that much damage with a single shot makes that fact moot. Throw in a bog-standard wall (mage-specific or not), and I guess the only other solution will be EC? Or massive GA and pray for no DM?
February 28 2007 2:05 PM EST
My thoughts, (as if anyone really cares anymore):
1) Instead of changing the WA, why not just make it completely like armor.
The PR it gives is based solely on the using minions total xp. The PR weighting may have to be tweaked since there are uber weapons out there, but something can be done to make it equatable.
2) About seekers, my views on them are well known. Abolish them. IMO, they have no place in cb land. If we keep seekers, let's make a mage item or spell that targets the minion with the highest str or hp or dex. Or even the highest Archery/BL skill level, etc...
3) There already is an AMF reducing item-the TOE. If you do not use it, then please do not cry there is no AMF reducing items for mages. There is a choice to have it, if you use a SF or FF, you have made your choice.
4) About a mage skill-I am against it. Mages always hit and MM/FB mages can get uber benefits from the HoC. Yes, archers do also, but evasion is tripled in the first missile round making it less powerful.
And Junction is not really a mage skill as enchanters should be the only minion using that skill. Mages do indeed have a very nice skill they should use-evasion.
5) CoC, unless you change the AMF backlash % will not be viable. 2 suggestions to make CoC a nice spell.
A) Since it does not fire till melee rounds, how are seekers going to know which minion is the highest mage. Therefore CoC is invisible to seekers.
B) Cut the AMF backlash for CoC in 1/2.
February 28 2007 2:11 PM EST
While your evasion is in fact the largest in the game, its not that big. For example.. Mikel, while being about 1/3 your MPR (which is actually more than a 3x experience gap mind you), has dex equal to your evasion skill. Given that the single toa archer strategy is completely and utterly focused on maximizing hit chance in ranged, you're going to need more than your current evasion to avoid all those hits. Personally, I find the whole HitChance vs. Evasion thing to be very well balanced. Perhaps you should invest in DBs..?
Now, as for ranged weapons being overpowered in DAMAGE.. I think we can all agree on. There's no reason they should hit for so so so so much more than what mages or even melee weapons can produce.
1: WA is too big. On my new char I can have 53mil WA at 740kMPR without increasing PR one bit. In CB1 I had 10mil at this MPR... I usually have less NW than most but this is ridiculous.
2: I don't care. They paid good money for those seekers, the ought to achieve something. Taking into account that you'll be generating much more money from fights than they will, I can't see how you've got the short end of the stick here.
2b: "that wont happen"
3: If it would make people finally admit CoC is an effective DD, sure! ... but that line of thought is perhaps not in the best interests of the game so I'll leave this one for someone else to answer.
4: Sure, why not.
I'm not going to dignify that with an answer.
February 28 2007 2:43 PM EST
Why not make arrows 10x1 and seekers 7x1? That would make seekers vs normal arrows a choice. As is stands, seekers have seeking AND higher damage.
i always thought anti-magic field was something to protect you from magic right but it does damage that it prevent i think a slight change in the way it works would be good
(1) lets say it loses 50% of the reflect damage and gains 50% in the blocking portion
(2) lose the reflect and gain a massive boost in damage reduction
or and my favorite
(3) make it "drain" the magic power of the mage like DM does to DE so the mage would just be in an "anti-magic field"
1. Make mages train 3 stats and sink $$ into an item to do damage.
2. I like the make seekers do less damage than normal arrows idea.
3. The ToE already reduces AMF backlash. It's the only item that does. If you were to add another item that did it would be too much of a reduction IMO.
4. Why if you had a mage you'd want to take exp away from your DD i don't know.
5. Let CoC fire like a cone. 1st minion takes the brunt of the damage and it lessens as it goes back. This will effect all the AoI wearers that have their minion hidden in the front. And since it seems to suffer the most from AMF and doesn't fire until melee then maybe give it a reduction in AMF backlash. Just the backlash though not the reduction.
February 28 2007 4:24 PM EST
Nerevas, DBs don't make a whole lot of difference -- they don't increase Evasion that much because the curve get's very, very steep at high levels. That's why I stopped training Evasion where I did. I have the _highest trained skill in the game_, (that means ALL skills, and I top the Junction list as well), and you're telling me it isn't that much of a comparative investment? Ridiculous. It's more than what anyone else is doing, so feel free to compare THAT. *smile*
PM, OK, I should use the ToE for damage reduction... So, I should also say that there should only be one armor item for magic damage reduction. There should only be one way for a tank to increase stats. There should only be one way to reduce strength of an opponent. There should only be one way to reduce dexterity in an opponent... I'm totally fine with ToE being the only AMF-backlash reducer -- as long as you make all of these other things have only one choice as well (and make sure it burns a tattoo slot, no less). That is just about the silliest thing I have ever heard you say, PM. You are basically saying there doesn't need to be any choice.
I have an idea. Let's make one weapon, one piece of armor, one type of bow, and a single stat (just call it "Power") and play that way! Hey, as long as there is a way to accomplish the various game mechanics, why do we need more than one?
There is absolutely no reason why there shouldn't be multiple, balanced ways of AMF backlash reduction, especially considering that backlash can kill a mage (an imbalanced facet for which tanks have no counterpart). PM, you yourself go on to say CoC is no good with backlash being so high, just a few lines after saying ToE backlash reduction should be all that people need. How does that make any sense? We have an entire DD spell that is useless because of backlash, yet you say we don't need any additional discussion about backlash. *scratches head* What?
** Disclaimer **
No flames allowed. This is not an anti-tank post so tanks please do not add why you think a suggestion is stupid or whatever. Mages, no attacking tanks just put your suggestions so we can try and make something happen for change month!
Sorry, but, AoI doesnt stop DD, so why should it NOT stop "some" ammo that actually seeks its target...? Slayers, ok i guess thats alright, but not seekers...
to add: If seekers couldnt see past AoI anymore, seekers would then be pointless, as most AoIs are on mages....
February 28 2007 5:28 PM EST
I wasn't flaming anything. I was asking for consistency. If one way of stopping ToE backlash should suffice, then one way of doing everything else should suffice too.
If you want changes made, one thing I know works wonders in making such requests is consistency. *smile*
So sorry, I guess I WAS flaming inconsistency. *smile*
Just for the record, I love tanks! One reason I wake up each day and still log in to CB is to see how King of Pain is coming along. Just today I re-ran the numbers for Mikel so he would know how his build stacks up against the highest Evasion in the game. It's good times!
February 28 2007 6:28 PM EST
There are 2 ways to lower AMF backlash.
Higher DD spell or a TOE.
And if your having problems with TOA tanks, why not raise your evasion 1 million more and lower your DD spell 1 million.
You do have a choice.
Now people consistently complain that AMF can do damage back to you while EC does not. Well DD spells are free. That is they cost no CB money. While a tank has to use cb to get his weapons up (except for UC, but we all know how bad UC is compared to the same level weapon). That is the choice one makes.
Go free damage and take amf backlash or pay for your damage and do not take backlash.
Having played a mage and a tank, I personally think it is well balanced in that respect.
If you're going to make an AMF-reducing piece of equipment, might as well make it a power shield/cloak/body armour, since apparently anything would probably be too much.
I'm all for giving mages a boost (especially CoC), because it might actually make me rethink my strategy, which will be fun.
Sure, lower WA. I don't care, with the right strategy, size doesn't matter.
A % chance that seekers/slayers will miss won't help much, since they'll still be doing eleven billion damage a pop anyways.
Go mages go!
February 28 2007 6:58 PM EST
And there are how many ways to enhance tank STR? Yeah, a lot more than 2. Even if I count AGs and CoI for a mage, that's only 4 ways. I'm pretty sure there are more than four ways to enhance tanks strength.
As far as backlash goes, are you claiming to understand why Jonathan designed AMF backfire the way he did? Attributing it to net worth? Come on, we have no idea why it is constructed that way. If that's your. opinion on why it should stay that way, that's fine.
I guess we can use the "because tanks pay for it" argument for pretty much anything. Why don't we just remove mages from the game then... I mean, the tanks pay for the privilege to pay, right? Who needs mages!
I could just as easily reverse that argument and say the fact that tanks CAN use cash to increase stature is the reason mages need a break, not a hassle. Tanks can be enhanced with USD -- a phenomenon entirely outside the realm of Carnage Blender, and having nothing to do with strategy, diligence, or longevity. Augmenting a mage minion with USD is entirely impossible (once AGs and CoI are at a certain level) save for DBs. Meanwhile, a monthly stipend of USD could be devoted to weapon damage, making a comparable tank untouchable without the tank user really being any "better" at CB (if such an adjective can even really be used).
Holy cow, a mage power shield is a great idea!
an Arcane Buckler +40
the reduced AMF backlash by a %, can't be worn with a ToE so it won't turn single minion mages into gods. the TSA was nice in theory to regain AMF damage, but the 10% penalty on it is just too ugly to be viable since the reduction of DD level increases your vulnerability to AMF.
February 28 2007 7:25 PM EST
Let us just take one and only one example of tank vs mage.
You vs me.
Almost the same exact MPR.
In fact I even have a much higher tattoo.
I am the only one who can beat you consistently right now. And I have to have a massive NW to do it. While you have almost no NW.
Without my +201 MH I will not at all be able to hit you. With my +166 VB, I miss you about 1/3 the time in melee.
Yes, I choose to use a TOE and a heavy tank. But if I went TOA tank, like Jayuu, your FB would destroy me in 2 round like it does him. And if I went conventional tank with more dex trained I would have much less hp and also lose to you.
You have a perfect low NW mage strategy. Only a very high NW team with a TOE can have a chance vs you.
So let me get this right. You want another way to further reduce AMF backlash aside from a TOE. So you can take less damage from those .20 or less AMF's out there. Or you want a skill to help mages do even more FREE damage?
Yes, you keep on typing that Mikel with is massive elb and a TOA can hit you in the first round of missile. Darn right he should. If you have problems, adapt like I have done numerous times. Untrain your MM and boost your evasion. 1 Million more evasion should easily help you evade the highest ELB and TOA/archer combo in the game. In fact, I would like miss you in melee with that much evasion.
So, how are mages underpowered compared to tanks?
February 28 2007 7:52 PM EST
Ok. Sut and PM to your corners. Sut, you're turning this into an anti-tank thread. PM, you're feeding him! Now if you both don't stop I'm going to turn this THREAD AROUND!!
Speaking of turning this thread around, let me do just that.
I guess I wasn't specific enough with my disclaimer.
I really just want people to post ideas for REASONABLE MAGE CHANGES. Yeah, thats it. Nothing else. I don't want ANYONE talking about another characters strategy or comparing this to that. Just constructive criticism on the suggestions found here. Having said that...
I suggested an AMF-reducing item OTHER than the ToE because maybe I don't want to use that tattoo. Here's my ideas for such an item:
Make it a power shield, body armor, cloak (someone has already said this, sorry I'm too lazy to go back). That way single mages can't use it with a tattoo (I don't know why). This item doesn't have to be all-powerful either. This item doesn't have to give AC and can just reduce a % based on (+). I don't see how this would be such a great advantage, I mean other than CoC mages... do any mages die solely from AMF backlash?
And if it is too powerful let the + take alot of NW to upgrade. That way mages can have an extra NW outlet and a fun new item. Or... maybe not this item. Maybe some other item that I can't think of that would be cool. Does anyone have any REASONABLE SUGGESTIONS? =)
perhaps give the mages a skill which basically doubles their damage but has a percentage based upon they dd level to use the spell, like 1mil fb needs a 200k xp into said skill to get a 75 percent chance to do double damage, 25 percent chance to not be able to use spell
February 28 2007 8:00 PM EST
Like a mage BL? Never gonna happen. However, a critical strike chance? Cool idea.
February 28 2007 8:04 PM EST
Only way I would think a AMF reducing item would be good is if it were either a cloak, helm or gloves.
That way a mage would have to decide on using the "new item" or the standard COI/AG/HoC.
Making it a power shield will be far too powerful. Aside from single mages, no mage wears a tattoo. They all use a COI. Meanwhile tanks do use tattoos, namely the TOA.
Again, if a mage wants AMF reduction, use a TOE.
When Koy was a mage, one key decision I had to make concerning my strategy was just that. To use a TOE or use a SF. I chose a TOE. Choices are great.
CoC is another matter. A TOE, even at the MTL, cannot handle the AMF backlash. So either reduce the AMF backlash from CoC or make the TOE be able to handle more of it, only for spells/CoC. Contrary to what others type, I am not showing a double standard. I think everyone agrees CoC needs a major boost, especially due to the AMF backlash it takes.
I have a great idea. In fact a perfect one. Let mages have their AMF reducing item. Just let tanks have a PTH increasing item as well. Let us make this new PTH increasing item a power shield as well.
February 28 2007 8:17 PM EST
Lol...DD, don't turn the thread around... I thought I just said I loved tanks above (I meant it...)...?
PM, you have very good points, and you keep telling me how close I am to beating you. But I know that simply isn't true. It takes me two tries to beat you, and on the second try, it takes me 4-5 rounds most times (seriously, think about the damage my team, unhindered by AMF can lay out in three ranged rounds)! That seems like an awful lot I am needing to pump into you for the battle being so "close". That's totally fine in any case. I don't think I should beat you, and nothing on this thread has made me look like I am saying that.
I pointed out Mikel on this thread, not you. And for the record, AMF backlash does not cause me to lose against anyone I think I should otherwise beat. In fact, I WANT AMF backlash when it comes to my FF! I want the poison pill! Once again, this is a case of someone assuming that just because I mention something, I am mentioning it only to help benefit my team. That is not the case. I was mentioning Mikel's awesome power (with more to come) to point out how powerful archery is becoming (a concern I thought, perhaps wrongly, that you shared).
Next: you are not the only team that can consistently beat me. Oxcha can beat me, every time. And Lorenzo, before GB had to quit him, could beat me (every time) with a not-all-that-expensive setup. End of Days can beat me consistently too, but he needs explosive shot to do it. The way I crawled my way to beating the final 5-6 people on my fight list (after I bought my final minion) was because I invested cleverly in DM. That gave me Crisis (consistently, finally), NWO, Dixie Cousins, Tezmac, Kaiser, and a shot at Critters. I exploited a big weakness in the Top Ten -- ED dependency (just say "no", kids!). I'm not even sure why I am addressing this (other than to point out a mistake in your post) -- I don't care about who I can, should, or would beat. I am happy with my fightlist, currently, and purchasing my last minion let me beat the team I have had my eye on for what seems like an eternity.
To reiterate, I don't even have a problem with Mikel! Here's what _really_ happened: Someone pointed out Evasion. Someone else mentioned something about mage investment. Well, it just so happens I have Evasion, and I have invested more in it than anyone else. So, I weighed in with a pro/con style post. Pros? He has a huge bow. Rock on. Ask him yourself, I congratulated him, sincerely, in chatmails just earlier today. Its a fantastic setup and he is engineering is far more masterfully than I ever could! Cons? The fact that one shot can kill a huge minion in round 0.5 (first half of HoC-doubled round 1.0) against the very mechanism meant to foil such things trained to highest level in the _game_. Like I said, I thought you shared my concerns about physical ranged damage from other posts and such, but apparently I mis-interpreted as per usual... It's been one of those days...
As far as Mikel owning Hubbell when he gets up here? Oh, gods yes he will. *smile* Think "wall sandwich" with an archer as the meat, an archer the same size as my mage Joe and a 100 million-dollar bow! */me bows* My only regret in that scenario is that Battle Royale clan ties won't let me see him beating the top-scoring character to perdition as well. *wink*
Did I mention clans are stupid? *smile*
Sorry for all the trouble, I won't post on this thread again.
February 28 2007 8:27 PM EST
'Like I said, I thought you shared my concerns about physical ranged damage from other posts'
Please, pretty please, show me where I said anything about the DAMAGE portion of ranged combat.
I completely agree ranged DAMAGE is far too much. The ability to hit or not is a completely different matter.
I have no problem with the ability to hit evasion in missile, however, the damage done is too much.
February 28 2007 8:31 PM EST
Just a few things.
1) Ranged weapon damage is too high. Everyone seems to agree on this.
2) Many players, many tanks included, seem to agree seekers are the biggest problem and should be nerfed/removed.
3) Sut, you're wrong about DBs. You would benefit massively from them.
February 28 2007 8:47 PM EST
Nerevas - he is not wrong about DBs.
To begin with, DBs don't stack linearly with Evasion. The increase is not nearly so great as you must think it is...as he said, the curve rapidly starts going up. It is as though you are adding the level which would be proportionate to the effect of the DBs to the Evasion level, which won't help much when there's an enormous curve going on to the Evasion level itself.
Second, DBs don't affect the ranged bonus portion of Evasion - which is the part Sut is attempting to rely on to keep from being hit by Mikel. EBs do affect this, however, and so are a far better choice.
Third, DBs don't add to the Defensive DX portion of Evasion. EBs, again, boost the skill and thus also the Def. DX portion.
The only time the DBs could be helping more would be in melee. Even so, isn't Sut stating that he's being hit in RANGED rounds with that enormous Evasion? =)
February 28 2007 8:49 PM EST
Oh, and I totally agree with your first point.
I also think seekers are a huge problem, but certainly not the biggest. *smiles*
I also agree, ranged damage is too much and i am now worried cuz i really won't be able to use my 42 mil NW MH, cuz 9.5/10 of my fights don't even touch melee...
March 1 2007 9:03 AM EST
You want things more balanced between tanks and mages?
OK, AMF is a problem, but AMF was always a problem. Even when we were Mage Blender. Some means of reducing it other than the ToE would be good; as it stands if you want to make a long lasting mage the ToE is the only real option.
Seekers? They're not really a problem; not enough people use them; and those that do are paying a lot of money to stay equipped. Point is: it costs, so if they are paying, let them have the result they're paying for. Mages don't have to pay for much at all, including evasion and ec. There's balance there of sorts.
The biggest things that should be changed though, to balance tanks and mages is:
WA and physical damage.
The weapon allowance lets you have a huge invisible PR. Then the weapons let you do insane damage (ELBs in particular).
Example: I've just started an NCB. It started as a two minion Magic Missile/ToE mage and a wall. At about 10k MPR (I know it's small but the same is just as true at higher levels) I switched the ToE to a ToA and chucked on a composite bow from the store and a very low level VB.
Damage doubled. Score nearly tripled. PR stayed the same. MPR actually lowered due to the retrain. Rewards went from a 10% challenge bonus to a 100% challenge bonus. So then the team is growing faster as well...
All the rest is gravy really. Tanks have toys, mages don't need them but want them. But in the end the Power is what counts. And tanks on the whole are a lot more powerful than mages of a similar size for a lot more reward.
Tone down the power somewhat and wait and see how many posts appear about how overpowered mages are again....;)
March 1 2007 6:04 PM EST
Hijacking my own thread... oh yeah...
It seems there is a general consensus that WA is large. How about instead of WA have it be EA (equipment allowance). Have it include NW from ALL items equipped on your character (except tattoo maybe?) ...
if thats not good enough, lower it some more o.0 ?
Make CoC damage vorpal. We know that it's an effect worth waiting until the melee rounds to get.
March 2 2007 1:38 PM EST
There is already a "Vorpal-style" DD spell. It's called Decay. It doesn't even suffer as badly from AMF backlash (caster cannot die from AMF backlash).
There is already a spell (a few, in fact) that do non-vorpal damage. That doesn't mean that there can't be another, especially if they work in different ways.
March 2 2007 2:01 PM EST
I've listed this before...
Skill - Spell Focus
If the investment into the skill exceeds a certain percentage of the opponents collective AMF, then the backlash is doesn't occur. The reduction to the spells damage would be unaffected.
I'm personally in favor of more skills. They, of all things. Really help you personalize your minion. I've come to the conclusion that skills are quite possibly my most favorite set of Character Attributes.
March 4 2007 3:28 PM EST
I like the Vestax idea.More skills=more strategy.I think their should also be just a little more weapon/armor variety.Nothing more powerful just some more in between stuff.
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