The Idiot Strategy (MrC, you've done it again) (in General)


MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] March 1 2007 8:56 PM EST

I figured I'd kill two birds with one stone by making this post; I'd get ideas on further improvements and I'd get people thinking about different strategies too. That and I get to claim my self appointed title as CB's mad genius... the mad part anyway.

I've tried out a somewhat... different strategy which has seen my score shoot up 300k (and that's quite impressive considering my PR dropped 60k).

Single Minion Melee Tank

HP: Base
ST: 25%
DX: 37.5%
Evasion: 37.5%

Equip:
BoNE or SoD or ELB

AoM
MCM
EC
EG
EB
HoE

Weak against: Mages and GA. Not so much weak as "when you see them, run and hide".
Strong against: Tanks of all shapes and sizes.

This was the plan.

However I have run into something of an obstacle, one I really should have seen coming. ToA PTH.

I can overcome almost any PTH with my evasion, I however cannot overcome weapon PTH and ToA PTH.
The obvious answer is to beat opponents in ranged, the problem here is that I rely on a decent ST whereas melee gives me much, much more time to kill opponents so focusing on melee means less need for ST and more EXP for DX/Evasion. So, any ideas?

P.S.
Got a mentee who's getting poor fight rewards? Get 'em to train a base FB and beat up MrC! :)

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] March 1 2007 9:04 PM EST

The other obstacle will be if teams on your list with an E train fb. That will leave you with single tanks only.

QBOddBird March 1 2007 9:05 PM EST

Agreed, you're a mad genius!

=D

[T]Vestax March 1 2007 9:06 PM EST

Maybe give up some DX for more Evasion?

Nerevas March 1 2007 9:10 PM EST

Honestly if you're looking for a strategy where you mostly only kill tanks, you might as well go something like this:

1) ToA Tank with SoD and 100% into hp, with bg/hoc/aoi/ebs
2) 100% into EC with corn
3) 100% into EC with corn
4) 100% into EC with corn

You'll drop -any- tank to 0 stats. You'll kill most mages. Lots of pluses here.. you'll still be weak to GA.

QBOddBird March 1 2007 9:10 PM EST

I think his problem will be the Evasion curve. =P After so high, it starts taking more and more to block another point of PTH...

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] March 1 2007 9:12 PM EST

Rubberduck, if they do that just to beat one opponent, that's their loss.

I'm quite content to train a set amount of HP to keep them on my fightlist. It'll be awful expensive for them to get me off their back.


Vestax, that's not a bad idea actually. I get double hits against most people anyway and dropping back to one hit per round is no real loss if I use up a little more of my weapon allowance (currently using a 7mil MH with over 50mil WA).

I'm trying the ranged weapon thing because the sacrifice of a little evasion in order to finish some fights in ranged may be worth it. A x1000 ELB is doing a little over 100k a hit, 400k first round, 200k second and 200k on the third. Not as bad as I thought but it'll never finish a whole character, especially if I do drop back to one hit per round.

[T]Vestax March 1 2007 9:14 PM EST

True, but it should be assumed that the ToA PTH stacks on Weapon PTH in the same type of curve. If not, then Jon broke the game.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] March 1 2007 9:16 PM EST

I'm wondering how bad the curve could be, clearly it's steep but with any luck all the DX bonuses will make up for it.

QBRanger March 1 2007 9:17 PM EST

A big problem is the fact that people only have to train a small FB or a small GA to beat you.

Once you start beating someone, this is all they have to do to beat you.

[T]Vestax March 1 2007 9:25 PM EST

Thanks for the reminder PM.

Dear Mr.C,

The xp was delicious.

With Love and Fireballs,
Vestax

QBOddBird March 1 2007 9:25 PM EST

And if it is worth taking the extra EC, you could dump an AoF on there in place of the AoM for a huge boost to the Evasion.

[T]Vestax March 1 2007 9:27 PM EST

I was thinking the same thing OddBird. If you're going to specialize, then go all out.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] March 1 2007 9:32 PM EST

Glad you told me that. I thought AoF only effected enchantments.

That will be a big help. :)

QBOddBird March 1 2007 9:33 PM EST

Another suggestion that came up whilst talking in Chat.

1) Adding a small DM couldn't hurt, so people can't just train a tiny GA to nerf you.

2) Take that strategy, make it 2 minions and make one a solid HP/PL/MgS/TSA guy. Allows for 1 or 2 extra MM rounds and keeps FB mages off your back.

Better yet, it'd still be fun! Just a thought. =)

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] March 1 2007 9:41 PM EST

OB,

1: Yeah, I may do that but I figure sooner or later someone will make me train some HP so a tiny GA may not be any concern but DM is a good alternative.

2: The problem with that is that PTH would quite easily outrun my evasion.
Also I'm way too cheap to spend either 3mil or 8mil on hiring another minion. ;)

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] March 1 2007 9:47 PM EST

Big DB. I doubt you can afford these so if not you obviously need some EB.

Also warning - don't try this strat if you are in a clan :)

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] March 1 2007 10:06 PM EST

Rubberduck,

Yeah, using this in a clan might get a little messy. I think you'd be kicked out on sight.

As for the DBs, I can't afford them now, no. But I've no objection to sitting back and forging for a while, however I figured EBs would be more effective. It looks like my evasion will end up even bigger than I thought and this makes the EBs continually more effective, DBs however have a more static effect, they add say +75 with my evasion as it is, and they'll do the same when I've doubled it's effect. They only add X evasion but EBs give a higher and higher amount of evasion the higher my evasion gets.

Oh and for the record, without full equip (and a lot of it lower levels than I'd like) at 680k PR and 640k MPR I've got Evasion: 1,132,595/826,712 (117).

Xenko March 1 2007 10:31 PM EST

"[DBs] only add X evasion but EBs give a higher and higher amount of evasion the higher my evasion gets."

You need to look at it from an experience/level point of view:
With 1 evasion effect - +5 DBs are only a slight XP gain (say 10k exp)
With 100 evasion effect - +5 DBs are a huge XP gain (>100k? exp)

I'd have to look into the math real deep to see which one is actually more beneficial in terms of evasion, but I'd guess DBs...

EBs, on the other hand, would boost your DX, Evasion and AC....

Xenko March 1 2007 10:33 PM EST

Never mind the previous post, I just read the wiki a bit more carefully, and my thoughts on how DBs and evasion stack was completely incorrect.

[RX3]Cotillion March 1 2007 10:34 PM EST

I thought the DB's level of Evasion was broken down to EXP and then added onto your actual skill. So +20 DB's would add how ever much exp was required to get to that level on top of your skill. That's the way I always thought of it, someone correct me if I'm wrong. And I think PTH from ToA and Weapons should stack like Evasion and DB's should.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] March 1 2007 10:37 PM EST

Kultur, I take it you're saying +5 DBs will take 100 evasion to 105?

That doesn't seem to be the case. - According to the wiki and according to my results testing with +50 DBs (thanks to vestax for loaning me the DBs).

I'm honestly not noticing any difference. For example, Gun's character Bob hits me once every couple of fights without DBs and with DBs he hits me just as often. It's not like I've done a great deal of testing, but you'd expect +50 evasion to be pretty obvious.

My guess is that it's adding 50k to my evasion's level which quite probably is giving me 118 effect.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] March 1 2007 10:40 PM EST

"My guess is that it's adding 50k to my evasion's level which quite probably is giving me 118 effect."

I too should read the wiki more closely. ;) More likely they're adding just over 100k.

[T]Vestax March 1 2007 10:47 PM EST

Yeah, when it comes to mixing DBs with Evasion, all that matters is how much NW you sunk into the DBs. That being said, I'm afraid that two and a half mil doesn't amount to much XP. EBs are much better at building up a synergy between your NW and your XP.

Tyriel [123456789] March 1 2007 10:56 PM EST

Yummy, yummy specialization. :)

Yeah, you'd probably do better with _some_ kind of HP. As somebody said earlier, a strategy like what Forge Hog, and now I have would be just as effective, and possibly even more effective, at dealing with tanks.

Lots of XP in EC, several MM/Ranged kill slots (to last you to melee), and ToA tank, with either BL or Evasion. It would do basically the same thing as you do now, with less of a threat from PTH, since you're completely obliterating their tank's ST and DX, making them even more likely to miss/do very little damage.

Throw in some nice, juicy DBs, or Evasion and EBs, and you'll have plenty of whiffs coming your way.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] March 1 2007 11:14 PM EST

Tyriel, yep that'd be equally effective against DX and more effective against mages.

I however am lowering their PTH quite a lot with my evasion. DBs would do this too, but not nearly as effectively.

You can take a lot more hits than I can though.

If I can overcome their PTH (and I think I can), mine will be superior against tanks. If I can't (where I'm at right now) and you can always lower their DX to 0 then yeah there's a pretty good chance you're better against tanks. Mages too.

We do however have different goals, I want to beat every tank (except maybe those in the top 10... they look kinda tough ;)) and for that I've got to drop their PTH to 0.

Tyriel [123456789] March 1 2007 11:40 PM EST

I'll probably be changing my BL to Evasion as soon as I get some decent money for EBs and other stuff.

If I can't nuke their DX, and I can't nuke their ST, the least I can do is nuke their PTH and beat down their DX a little more. :P

All I need are 3 Corns, EBs, EGs, a HoE, and an AoI and I'll be good. =)

Nerevas March 1 2007 11:55 PM EST

Seriously, why not massive EC? 3 minions of a 4 minion team training EC, all with corn. You'll reduce *any* size tank of similar level to 0 str/dex. No need to evade 0 damage.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] March 2 2007 12:09 AM EST

Good point.

I'll stick with the single minion option though, I'm curious to see what it can do with full equipment.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 2 2007 3:07 AM EST

Mr C, I don't find the AoF to be good for Tanks. Sure, it could pump your Evasion, but if you face EC it increases the EC you take by the same amount, which will lower your STR, DEX and Evasion by more...

QBJohnnywas March 2 2007 7:31 AM EST

That last tank of mine, Diabolik, was an evasion tank. My original plan with him was to take the idea of UC but give it real weapons. Worked really well, although I boosted damage to much higher proportions.

Against several opponents I was taking zero damage, which did lead me to lower my overall HP. I never had the guts to try it with nothing but base HP though! Nice one!


No real way to get past ToA PTH. At a certain level against an evasion/uc minion it will supply a pretty much guaranteed hit per battle, providing dex isn't an issue.

"Per battle? JW, don't you mean per round?" I mean per battle. A single evasion minion with 800k HP has to worry about a single guaranteed hit - if that hit is for about 800k damage.

Never mind someone with only 21 HP. They only need to hit you once boss!


DBs work to a point, but that costs. Evasion starts to get expensive per point of XP. Dex can help. Best way to try and get round it is by wearing a ToA. Frees you up to spread your XP a little further, gives you some of that bonus PTH as well, which increases your strike rate, enabling you to take down opponents at a faster rate.

Lol, I love this. ;) Thanks for drumming up some enthuasism this Friday.


Drakon(DS) [Guardian Bros Inc] March 2 2007 7:48 AM EST

all i have to say is RoBF+PL yup yup

QBJohnnywas March 2 2007 7:51 AM EST

Oh, that's good. Not only has MR C come up with a strat that is 'silly' despite being an effective use of xp in a specialist situation; he's also come up with an opponent for RoBF tattoo wearers of all sizes!

Finally a use for that tattoo!!!!


Well done!!!
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