Has Missile damage gotten way out of hand. (in General)

Example
Time hit The Grid with Platypus Phlegm [427445] vs 410AC AND a TOE

The Grid tapped Ever I with Boomstick [64839] vs 420AC and NO TOE

The Elb is x10,000 and my MH is x12,000.

Time's Str is 1.2 million while The Grid's str is 2.4 million.

Yes, I do not have BL instead I use evasion, however even with the extra 60% damage that would make it about 100k damage.

Question to the peanut gallery:
Has ranged damage gotten way out of hand?

It seems to me that Beleg's give archers the BL ability in missile given the 3% extra damage per +, while generic melee tanks have to sit and get shot waiting to do their damage.

yes it has, my fights goto melee about 2% of the time... My MH is obsolete now, =/

Can we get some averages? Single data points aren't really that informative now, are they? *smile*

But yes, even with averages I anticipate the ranged damage being crazy-huge in comparison to melee. I don't understand either.

Here is another battle:

Time shot The Grid with Platypus Phlegm [733719]
Time hit The Grid with Platypus Phlegm [522659]
Time hit The Grid with Platypus Phlegm [775897]

VS

The Grid beat Ever I with Boomstick [189975]
Saw Your absorbs damage [50194]
The Grid draws strength from his weapon! [27956]
The Grid tapped Ever I with Boomstick [58440]
Saw Your absorbs damage [50194]
The Grid draws strength from his weapon! [1649]
The Grid fractured Ever I with Boomstick [165662]
Saw Your absorbs damage [50194]
The Grid draws strength from his weapon! [23093]

That is typical of all my battles.

It's been like this for months PM. Where have you been? ;)


I had an x1000 ELB, and a x1750 Morg. The ELB, along with about 1.2 mill strength and +11 Belegs was doing about 1.2 million per strike. The Morg meanwhile, was only doing a comparably pitiful 300k per strike against the same opponent.


The other ranged weapons don't offer quite the same bang for the buck as the ELB however. It's only that monster that does these things......

Novice found that my large bone at x1700 was doing about 20% of the damage of an ELB at x1200 against the same minion. A bone should deal the largest amount of damage, I would think. It's far from it.

WoW,

I think we all knew about this for a while. However March is changemonth. Perhaps changes are in order?

You have to take in effect the arrows and thier multipliers, i mean slayer are 15 right, so a 6x15 = 90 damage, x10000 is pretty high. Then you have to take into consideration the BG's, +15 bgs give you +45% damage! So if you take those into effect, then i dont see how it is rediculously over damaged.

Now the fact you have ToE and 410 AC brings it to a wierd angle, that should lower it quite a bit, but considering his bow ona regular minion could easily do 4+m damage, 700k damage isnt much.

Just my 2 cents

From ranged with my ELB 2.5 mil NW:
Dam Tank hit Kano-san [94253]

From melee with my 42 mil NW MH:
Dam Tank beat Kano-san [192637]

Cant get too much more information since my whole fightlist goes no further than round 6....

evasion is, and has been the answer to this for a long time

yes ranged damage is huge, but so are the options for avoiding it

did free switch his ToE, cause he had one last time I looked...

o yeah, btw, im using BL too....

Time skewered Microchips with Platypus Phlegm [4346209]
Time cries "Is on My Side - yes it is!"
Time struck deep into Cloudscape with Platypus Phlegm [2501491]
Time struck deep into Cloudscape with Platypus Phlegm [2487924]
Time struck deep into Cloudscape with Platypus Phlegm [3232704]
Time skewered Cloudscape with Platypus Phlegm [2873545]
Time cries "Is on My Side - yes it is!"
Saw Your's explosive shot hit Prophecies [84], The Grid [0]
Face hit Prophecies with This is a SoD [61]

Vs my low AC enchanters

And if you think evasion is the answer:

Ask Sut. He gets hit in the first round of missile with an evasion over 1.5M effective.

I tried using my +201 DB's and guess what? I did worse. Why? My AC dropped to about 330 and therefore I took over 1.3M damage per hit from 1-2 hits vs 600k from 2-4 hits.

"evasion is, and has been the answer to this for a long time "

Not really. When I fight Caramon, if he misses all 4 ranged attacks because of my evasion, I win the entire battle after 10 rounds or so. When he hits only once, just one single time, he deals over 600k damage and wins. This is an example of a win/loss cusp I am on with another player (as opposed to win/draw, draw/lose, etc). I did some calculations, and the amount of evasion necessary to avoid these hits altogether (because the solution is not lowering from 3 hits to 2, or 2 to 1... you have to get to zero) is extraordinary. DBs are the only answer, and there's only one person with +200 or more DBs.

My last post overlapped with PM's post. To elaborate, DB will only do something if you can drop the hits to zero.

My take:

Yes, ranged damage is nuts. But it's been that way since the first x26 elb back in cb1. I don't know that there's any solution aside from starting cb3.

New Rule: No mentioning CB3...

Yeah, Evasion works OK (EoD often still misses entirely in first round ranged)...

But how is saying "Evasion is the answer" addressing the ranged/melee disparity? How is making the damage done UNGODLY an answer to totally missing due to Evasion? That's not the right comparison. That would be like saying, "Hm, tanks have to deal with Evasion, so let's give them greater magic resistance... One has nothing to do with the other.

In fact, it's more than that -- what is the difference between using Evasion to reduce a tank to a single hit (instead of four hits) when that one hit still does 3 million HP damage? Dead is dead.

Finally, to get back to the melee vs ranged aspect, Evasion works in melee too. Granted, it doesn't have the multipliers, but PM has told me he misses me quite often even in melee. So, melee weapons are still affected by Evasion too, and doing one-fifth the damage?

I dislike every single change on range weapon and range combat.

Cause Fear anyone?

Down with ranged damage. I mean I think it's clear a change is in order... just look at how many single archers there are! Clearly the favored strat in CB right now. Aside from data points or whatever, this alone makes it obvious a change is needed!

Ranged has 3-4 rounds.

Melee has 22 rounds. That's plenty of time to make up for any extra damage a bow may have.

You've just got to survive long enough to make use of it. I've done this many different ways, 20hp enchanters + familiar, EC to nuke their ST/DX, or evasion to dodge their hits.

I'll admit that some of the top characters could beat your average evasion in ranged but for most people evasions multiplying effect will be enough to dodge.

And PM *I* can make it to melee against you. Surely Sut can too or do you not use all of your equip for defending?

With that said, the top characters have ridiculous NW and are prone to breaking things... the rest of CB isn't broken, just your corner of it.
Unless people at the top pull apart their strategies right back to using 20hp enchanters or fire a couple minions and try my idiot strategy, it's going to be awfully difficult to overcome these weapons.
The problem here is that people invest into their weapons so heavily that the weapon should be doing what it's doing but at the same time the other people with top chars who don't put USD into the game want to compete too...

You come up with the answers, you're in a far better position to do so than I am, just throwing in my three cents.

Lower WA.
Lower ranged damage.

"With that said, the top characters have ridiculous NW and are prone to breaking things... the rest of CB isn't broken, just your corner of it. "

Mr C, couldn't have said it better myself. In fact, I may just put that on my imaginary Johnnywas t-shirt. That's twice you've done that around here today. Good to have you back!


Meanwhile....

ELBs have always been hugely powerful. After a bit of thought - it's not the ranged damage that is the problem. It's the Belegs. Tone down that 3% per + and ranged and melee become a lot more even.

A couple of things MrC. How large is your WA? How big an ELB could you use to 'break things' with a small character.

As for the 3/4 round versus 21/22 of Ranged to Melee, Ranged sohuld never, ever do the *most* potential damage, as it goes first. Having 20 rounds to catch up means squat if you don't live long enough.

"How large is your WA? How big an ELB could you use to 'break things' with a small character."

Good point.

I guess even at a low MPR you could have a huge weapon which may throw things out of balance, that's on of the problems with having so much WA.

The only thing that bothers me is you are referencing the biggest Elb in the game. There is a reason it does so much. What happens when you hit a smaller one?

I am comparing the largest ELB and the largest MH in the game.

Both close to each other in x-10k vs 12k

In fact my minions str is 2x End of Days.

Also, I have a TOE backing my AC up.

Therefore how does an elb do over 7x damage over a MH given the fact my str is 2x, my MH is x2k more and I have a TOE. True, my AC is only 410 compared to his 420.

I think it's a combination of the Beleg 1.5% Damage increase per plus and Ammo's 1% Damage increase per 'X'.

That's like BL for Archers! ;)

Beleg's Gloves: an additional 3% damage per enchantment +

Elbs are designed to provide a quick and powerful punch, and then you discard it in favor of a melee weapon, such as the MH's, they get used for more rounds than an elb. So in theory, they should be better for the few rounds they get used in.

Have you mentioned how good SOD"s are yet? I didn't see any nerfs there. Half the NW and you're killing people faster than I am. We just haven't seen their full power yet, because they aren't as big as some of the Elbs in the game.

I certainly think missile weapons are to nasty right now. I'd like to see some SERIOUS penalties for early round shots. Perhaps in addition to the reductions already in place reduce damage in the first round of ranged by about 90%, then rising up to the over-the-top damage in the last round of ranged. A missile focused team is SUPPOSED to have a hard time against a large team, having an almost impossible time taking out all four minions before melee. Right now, with the insane damage, it's almost given that with a big ELB and HoC (or SoD and Explosive shots), 4 minions will bite it before melee.

Bows got nerfed then. 20% off an ELB is a big chop. Did it make things better?

"Have you mentioned how good SOD"s are yet? I didn't see any nerfs there. Half the NW and you're killing people faster than I am. We just haven't seen their full power yet, because they aren't as big as some of the Elbs in the game."

I seem to remember you thinking they were overpowered at one point, no PM? Until you started using one yourself.

http://carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001xQg

Of course, nobody is using one to undermine your strat right now are they?

Sorry, meant to add I agree with you Mikel, who I quoted there. ;)

Of course the SOD is too powerful.

But to combat those using ELB's I had to get some sort of missile weapon myself.

Compare an ELB's damage with a BoNE the same size and we'll see if the damage nerf was enough. =) I have always thought those two should do about the same, being the kings of their respective rounds.

Drizzt Do'Urden struck deep into blackmage's familiar [372226]
Drizzt Do'Urden struck deep into blackmage's familiar [387691]
with an An Elven Long Bow [6x715] (+73) 12.5 mil nw
Drizzt Do'Urden dislimbed blackmage's familiar [458756]
Drizzt Do'Urden decapitated blackmage's familiar [465920]
After one round of melee with 60% BL and a A Blacksword of Nan Elmoth
[92x1700] (+102) 29.4 mil nw

Not quite the same nw but that still shows that ranged still does more damage.

"Elbs are designed to provide a quick and powerful punch, and then you discard it in favor of a melee weapon, such as the MH's, they get used for more rounds than an elb. So in theory, they should be better for the few rounds they get used in."

I do partially agree, however when the ELB can take out my whole character before I even get a chance to attempt some melee combat, we have a problem. And not just my character, any 4 minion character.

It used to be where an archer could only take out 3 of the possible 4 minions on a character. In fact, TAB was 3 minions for quite a while. I hired a 4th partially to make sure my tank stayed alive to melee. Now, it is very possible for an archer to take out a 4 minion character before melee. Therefore before I have a chance to use my MH for the 20 or so rounds that I possibly could.

And about the SOD, yes, ex shots are very very powerful. IMO too much damage. But, contrary to the tone of prior posts in this thread, I have certainly stated that in the past. As I stated before in this thread, I just have to have some sort of missile damage to compensate for the fact mages get 4 free rounds on me, as do archers. You know the old saying-If you cannot beat them.....

the ELB has been able to take out heavy tanks for a long time now, there was just no one using it (properly) against you PM...

Personally I think damage should have been left alone, and Cause Fear brought back in ranged rounds for both physical and magical damage. Since apparently the massive power of the evasion option wasn't attractive enough to you.

Well novice:

Then a heavy tank is not really an option now is it?

Since with all the heavy armor, ones evasion skill takes a massive penalty.

And I guess you also believe that bloodlust is now a useless skill since a heavy tank must use "the massive power of the evasion"

I have no problem with the elb taking out my enchanters and doing some damage to my heavy tank. But to be able to completely take out: 2.4M HP, 410AC, 3.5M TOE is ridiculous. While I do less than 150k damage to a 420 AC Wall with NO TOE in melee.

I am guessing you loved CB1's massive ELB's and your last statement was based up that game.

It seems that this game is slowly evolving into 2 types of characters: Mages vs Archer. The bloodlust tank is dead.

It's not Mage v Archer PM, it's Ranged V Ranged. ;)

no one said you had to train evasion on your tank, or that you had to run a heavy tank...

We've seen examples of flying evasion walls that could very possibly hold off a real powerful ranged attack with TSA/MCM EC EG DB HoD, but that's not how you chose to set yourself up, you've got half measures against everyone and want them to be endlessly effective, accept that the game has gotten interesting enough that you can't win against everyone and play, your self serving complaints just serve to tarnish whatever image you had left.

A wee bit harsh don't you think?

Gee novice,

What side of the bed did you not get up on?

Your repeated attacks on people who do not agree with your point of view is getting rather old and very poorly received. Best to crawl back into that hole you call Bitter Hollow.

So you do not think it is unbalanced when TOA archers using DM to neutralize GA can beat an entire 4 minion character before that character even has a chance to attack. Very much reminds me of the complaints people have had with CoC. But I guess you are a fan of CoC just the way it is. The fact CoC does not fire till melee (well that changed a little with the new changelog) does not bother you at all?

As I stated, even Sut with his massive evasion cannot evade elb's the entire missile combat. So why the hell would I try a "flying evasion wall" when 1 or 2 hits from a massive elb will completely do me in. Or did we forget the extra PTH a TOA gives. Just 1 hit a round in the last 2 rounds would do my "evasion" wall/tank in.

Compared to my hitting a 0 AC minion with my MH only doing 1M damage at most. Yes my MPB is with a freaking x2001 SoD using base ex shots. And only the first hit is counted to the MPB, not the entire splash damage.

Yes, the game has gotten very interesting. It is now ranged vs ranged. I am bring up a point that nearly everyone in chat is acknowledging-Ranged damage is far too much.

But, since I am trying to show how unbalanced something is I must be self-serving.

Mmm bitterness....

"So you do not think it is unbalanced when TOA archers using DM to neutralize GA can beat an entire 4 minion character before that character even has a chance to attack. Very much reminds me of the complaints people have had with CoC. But I guess you are a fan of CoC just the way it is. The fact CoC does not fire till melee (well that changed a little with the new changelog) does not bother you at all?"

Thus why we have the option of having 5 minions now, or EC, or eva or anything else your under using and expecting things to cooperate with you, and you alone.
CoC does it's job well, and now does it even better. What I can't take is you complaining, getting what you wanted, and still complaining.

"As I stated, even Sut with his massive evasion cannot evade elb's the entire missile combat. So why the hell would I try a "flying evasion wall" when 1 or 2 hits from a massive elb will completely do me in. Or did we forget the extra PTH a TOA gives. Just 1 hit a round in the last 2 rounds would do my "evasion" wall/tank in."

He has 1.2 mil invested, you could afford to drop 2 mil in, which become MASSIVE in early ranged rounds, combined with your dbs (which don't match the PTh of the elb + ToA anyway, and therefore need to be upped) you should see thousands of dollars of equipment rendered useless, completely. I'm all for another minus to PTh slot, lets have the AoI upgradeable in a similar manner to the other amulets.

"Compared to my hitting a 0 AC minion with my MH only doing 1M damage at most. Yes my MPB is with a freaking x2001 SoD using base ex shots. And only the first hit is counted to the MPB, not the entire splash damage.

Yes, the game has gotten very interesting. It is now ranged vs ranged. I am bring up a point that nearly everyone in chat is acknowledging-Ranged damage is far too much.

But, since I am trying to show how unbalanced something is I must be self-serving."

You refuse to use the natural counters to a strat and complain, that's self-serving.
You're using your stature to make a case for ranged being over powered, when in fact the counters to it are plentiful and effective, that's self serving.
I'm the pot calling the kettle black, but to be fair, the kettle is awfully black.

Ranged is good how it is... don't change it... change melee. In real combat you can't take 5 arrows (or 20 shots with a huge hammer) without dying... Not anywhere near that amount... so, in this game we have magic and great armor, making these extra hits we're taking seem more reasonable... But still... with HoC and (we'll just say...) 3 shots a round in ranged... If they all hit, that's 12 arrows sticking out of you... if you are still alive, that's insane, I don't care what sort of magic you've got... This is the same in my mind with melee... You can't be hit with a Morgul Hammer (or huge real life equivalent) ANYwhere on you body without going down for the count... So, taking 20 rounds and (we'll just say...) 3 hits a round... That's 60 smashes with a hammer... even with great armor, that'd be tough... Melee should be pumped up, I think. Magic armor < Magic Weapon in all fantasy... Meh?

Not sure how this will affect this argument but I have an evasion wall with an evasion level of 1,754,223/1,038,002 (142) which does help against some tanks. Though against some it does not help any against. Those that use ToA's or seekers are usually able to defeat my team easily.

Novice,

Your a fool, simple as that.

If I drop 2M in evasion I am left with a tank that has only 400k hp or 400k str. Or if I mix that is 1.2M str and 1.2M HP. Not nearly enough to live vs GA and/or MM/FB.

Lets talk EC for a min. How much EC would it take to take out a TOA's Str. Massive amounts. I have 1.3M levels now and it does not touch TOA tanks.

I do use Freed vs me since we have similiar setups with him being TOA archer and me TOE tank. And our main weapons are very similar in NW and stats.

Now you really have to stop attacking people personally. I am stating my opinion in a thread and you start in attacking me.

And CMM,
How would we change melee when vs TOA archers there is a great chance you will not even get to see melee?

I hope I am able to have an opinion on things (contrary to Novice's thoughts on this matter) but apparently I am not.

Make melee stronger... make one hit with a huge weapon a fight ender... that's it... don't change ranged because a great archer > great tank when the fight starts at 100 yards apart! But of course, the archer < tank when the fight gets close... Honestly... if a (modern day) tank with a foot of front armor gets shot by a german 88, 12 times, before it can get close enough to shoot back, it's gonna burn.

Well, Moosh, you have to assume that someone with 400 armour is
really well armoured. (duh) - so those arrows and MH hits aren't
straight to the noggin, they're mostly being absorbed by the armour.
I guess AS is something like the personal shield generators from the
Dune movie (if you've seen that) so the hits to that aren't getting
through at all.
Consider also, a palestinian suicide bomber - that thing goes off and
the bomber is your 0 AC enchanter taking a hit from PM's MH. He's
gone. Some unprotected nearby is going to suffer too, but someone
behind a wall or in an armoured vehicle is going to fare much better.

Wouldn't that remove the HP stat, Damage multiplier on weapons, Strength stat, along with multiple other things? -.-

I wasn't suggesting putting evasion on your tank I was suggesting something similar to what Jayuu had for a while, my point is that you're complaining about things being unbalanced without using the very attributes and items that exist to balance it.

"I am bring up a point that nearly everyone in chat is acknowledging-Ranged damage is far too much. "

The most powerful weapon in the game just took a 20% cut in damage. That's actually one hell of a nerf. What would it take to stop it being 'far too much'?

JW, that's so easy to answer even a fool can do it, it's enough when PM is confident he has an unfair advantage...

it's posts like this I miss our old malevolent lord and master

Yes, Jayuu has an evasion "wall".

He later changed it since it was not working for him. The Pth of the TOA combined with the massive damage of the elb pretty much makes the game one of Ranged vs Ranged.

Well the ELB just saw a 20% cut in damage. Just look how many archers get to melee? Not many.

Is archery a skill designed to let someone win in missile all the time, or a skill designed to "soften" up an opponent to finish them in melee and give your opponent at least some semblance of a chance?

If it is the former, I stand corrected and let the ELB wars of CB1 begin/continue.

Was the 20% reduction enough? How are equal sized ELBows with Beleges fairing versus non BL Bones of equal size?

Why should the BoNE match the output of the ELB, that's rather arbitrary if you ask me.

I agree with Novice.

I do agree the ELB has to do more damage than the Bone/MH etc...

However, the damage done is multifold over what a melee weapon does in melee.

Some middle ground is needed, at least let generic tanks make it to melee.

The real question here is not is ranged damage too hard though is it? The real question here is should somebody be able to get past the biggest ToE in the game and over 400 AC.

Lots of people start talking about balance and choices. Well, I like the fact that ranged being as strong as it is allows people the choice of running a single minion tank and making it a viable strat. For far too long 4 minions has been the only real way to be successful. Now with an ELB, and a HoC you can run a single minion into the upper echelons.

So yes I think ranged is strong. I don't think it's out of hand though. And I don't think the biggest ToE and over 400 AC should make you invulnerable. That would really make the game unbalanced.


And Nov, I can't be getting evil around here. Would tarnish my reputation as a nice guy. ;)

Of course we can't actually make a sensible decision here. I don't envy Jon the task of trying to balance out things when there are monster weapons around that in the normal scheme of things would take years to build up.

When I was running the sole heavy tank in the top 20 and I suddenly fell victim to someone using an ELB to decimate my strat from half the PR, I was told to stop whining, as there were options I wasn't using. I don't think PM deserves any less for these posts...

The ELB has counters, if you're not using them, don't complain.

PM even has options he could use WITHOUT changing his setup, and has stated as much. If every point of AC reduces damage by 50k, and your only getting hit for 500k, doesn't seem like the answer is that hard, instead we get to have another epic thread about how unbalanced things are, couldn't you have stuck with seeker threads?

WoW,

A 400 AC and TOE has not made me invulnerable.

In fact, when Jayuu was playing just a couple weeks ago, I could not beat him with is TOA/MH setup. But then again, battles lasted at least 10 rounds giving both of us a chance.

However, vs Freed, there are battles I do not even make it to melee.

I am almost certain vs Hubbell, if he had a set of 151 DB's on, I would never hit him in melee due to his evasion. Then his MM would chop me to bits unless AMF did him in.

There are plenty of ways to counter any strat. However with the high damage of the elb, I suspect the TOA/ELB/DM strategy will trump them all. It does too much damage to leave anything alive in its wake.

PM, Freed has nearly TWICE your PR. Why shouldn't he be able to stomp everyone around with that much power? Why are you even bothering expecting a fair fight there? That's almost the same as me expecting a fair fight with your char.

Freed has 2x my NW you mean. A lot of his NW is on his other minions, in the form of other weapons which my EC makes useless.

I have 50% more MPR.

Our PR can be the same. Especially since if he had my MPR, his WA would be much higher and therefore his PR would likely be a bit lower.

However, I will state this yet again.

I am using Freed as a comparison due to the fact our main weapons are almost exactly the same, we both have 410/420 AC minions/wall and he is using archery to my TOA generic tank.

If this is not a good comparison, I have no idea what is.

We haven't even mentioned that with the recent changes, you could easily equip an EXbow and in a single hit eliminate his str, or any of the other tens of options you have, or the fact YOU'RE STILL BEATING HIM MOST OF THE TIME! This is worse than you leaving and abandoning TAB when it was likely Jayuu was going to be beating you with Crisis.

Sry, mistyped one sentence above.

He is using a TOA archer to my TOE generic tank.

even using PR, his is 150% of yours, are you saying you shouldn't be obliterated by someone with 1.7mill pr more than you?
I do think that ELB damage is too high but to use that as an example is just plain silly.

"This is worse than you leaving and abandoning TAB when it was likely Jayuu was going to be beating you with Crisis."

Novice,

Are you on drugs?

I left TAB since I was burned out on CB2. That, and I got fed up with some of the admins at the time.

I do not think anyone thinks I left due to Jayuu and/or Crisis. I think at the time I was beating Crisis fairly easy.

Again, another baseless attack on me personally. Tsk Tsk.

Zog,

If I equipped all my weapons at once, my PR would be close to 5M.

Using PR is not a good way to compare people.

Freed could easily lose 1M possibly 1.5M PR and still beat everyone he already does.

PM, the overwhelming truth of the matter is that if Freed and his ranged attack was so overpowered he would beat you all the time.

And yet from your fight logs:

Koyaanisqatsi (Battle Royale) The End of Days Fight Add Koyaanisqatsi 9 2:40 PM EST
Koyaanisqatsi (Battle Royale) The End of Days Fight Add Koyaanisqatsi 11 2:39 PM EST
Koyaanisqatsi (Battle Royale) The End of Days Fight Add Koyaanisqatsi 11 2:39 PM EST
Koyaanisqatsi (Battle Royale) The End of Days Fight Add Koyaanisqatsi 12 2:38 PM EST
Koyaanisqatsi (Battle Royale) The End of Days Fight Add Koyaanisqatsi 12 2:21 PM EST


Not one of those is a loss on your part and all of them go well into melee. Where's the overpowered range thing happening here?

It looks to me like there is no overpowered ranged attack happening at all. In fact I'd say melee was winning out.

"PM, the overwhelming truth of the matter is that if Freed and his ranged attack was so overpowered he would beat you all the time."

Freed's MPR: 1.65m
PM's MPR: 2.38m

Just a little note...

Yes,

I do beat him most of the time. However, what will happen when Freed equips a melee weapon on his tank.

However it is at the cusp of me winning. Most battles I have less then 700k hp left. That is 1 missile hit. Vs me doing all of 150k damage to his 420 AC wall without any TOE.

If I change my HOD for a HOC, guess what, I lose.

If I lower my tanks AC below 400, I lose.

So the only way for me to win vs all that elb damage is guess what, a massive AC tank/wall.

But my initial post was to address the damage done by the elb. I still feel, when an archer can almost take out a 410AC tank with a TOE in missile something is amiss.

I am almost certain, in the lower MPR's the archery uberness is just as pronounced.

"the only way for me to win"

That's an out and out lie, I've listed any number of possible solutions, and there are many many more. You yourself stated that upping your AC cuts damage very well, and yet you're still here claiming that the ELB is the problem, and not your lack of intelligent adaptation. Bleh.

Mikel is a good example of how strong the ELB setup is. Nothing against Mikel, he's a great player at this game... but if the goal of CB in terms of fairness is to keep your score at or near your PR, then I think that's a great way to see if a certain strat is way out of hand.

High AC shouldn't make you invulnerable. We're already had that conversation and it was started by Novice, back when he had a huge AC. So how else should we defeat a high AC minion? Get a big VB? I wonder what would happen in that fight if Freed used one of those.

Novice,

Your personal attacks on me are getting too old.

Your posts are nothing more then bitterness wrapped by bile.

If you disagree and want to attack me more, please start your very own "I hate PM and all he stands for" thread.

You had Conundrum and could not make it work. And you want me to take strategy advice from you? Sort of like asking a blind man to drive your brand new car. Not something I will be doing anytime soon.

And yes, this was in reaction to your attacks on me.

You know... that has me thinking, Mikel.... has anyone checked to see if maybe there's a bug in the system with regards to AC and the ELB? Does 400 AC really give a 0.21% reduction per point? I'd be interested to see if perhaps a mistake was made somewhere along the line, and the ELB is avoiding a portion of AC.

Interesting NS.

Here is a typical hit in melee when Freed uses his elb.

Remember that only dex takes a hit when a missile weapon is used in melee:

Time shot The Grid with Platypus Phlegm [46722]

I do know Beleg's only work in missile but this is a large difference in damage.

"I do know Beleg's only work in missile but this is a large difference in damage. "

That'd be another good test. Try with and without BG and see if they give 3% per point.

....creeps back in and throws a custard pie.


Maybe you're right PM, ranged damage has gotten out of hand. Especially now it's possible to take out FIVE minions in ranged.


Koyaanisqatsi (Battle Royale) NWO Fight Add Koyaanisqatsi 4 3:59 PM EST


creeps back out again and slips on a banana skin.......

Wait, how can you take out 5 minions in ranged w/o spread damage?

I see you agree with me now that missile damage is out of hand.

Especially since I can take out NWO with a x2001 SOD and base ex shots. People can post that numerous times and it will back up my statements about missile damage. Like I said, I have to use a missile weapon of some sort to "Keep up with the Joneses".

But about 5 minions:

So, you think due to archery everyone has to use a familiar? I tried that earlier to day and guess what? Just please guess?

I did much worse. Yes, my tank made it to melee unscathed and then without a TOE backing him up, got shot to death by Freeds ELB in melee.

So, in conclusion, you are saying that I HAVE to use a familiar to survive through missile at least just to make it a kill slot. Hmmmm, what familiar would help? Hmmmm. A SF/FF/IF? seekers destroy those in range 4 of missile before it even gets a chance to cast 1 spell. I could unlearn and retrain a junction to let my DD familiar get 1 cast off. What about a HF? A bit underpowered at this level would you not agree.

I always thought people wanted more choices. You seem to make it that people have less choices: Use a familiar or die in missile.

CoC Archer! *grins*

PM, thanks for putting words into my mouth.


Can you point out to me exactly where I said you need a familiar to last through ranged?


In fact, where has anybody said that in this thread?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meanwhile, I've been playing as bow wielding tank for most of the past year in one shape or form. And yes, it's powerful. Very powerful. No doubt at all in my mind. Give me low HP single minions and I can work magic with a bow and my score/pr/mpr ratio.

But it can also be beaten. You're doing it now. Too big a GA and I'm toast, although if I used DM I probably wouldn't be. Too high an EC and my bow is a useless piece of junk. Too much evasion and my bow is a useless piece of junk.

And your particular battle with Freed and his bow is not representative of the rest of CB. Too much cash in those weapons in too short a time to be an accurate representation of what should be happening.

It's not ranged vs ranged that is too powerful. It's USD bought cash injection that's too uber.

Personally my view is if you're playing a game using cheat codes you cannot claim overpowered anywhere.

And if you say you're doing it for the good of the game I will say: whose game? Because it's not for the good of mine, or any of the other ELB users.

"And if you say you're doing it for the good of the game I will say: whose game? Because it's not for the good of mine, or any of the other ELB users."

Yes, I would expect ELB users to want to keep the advantage they currently have.

It would be simple for me to get an elb and fire away, esp with my NW reserve and my MPR. But I choose to try to point out a problem that I see with the game.

You, it seems, want the status quo in order to keep your advantage.

Amen, brother Johnny, amen! I've been gathering my thoughts since yesterday, trying to refine what I wanted to say, and you just said it more perfectly than I could have hoped to.

A x2001 SoD? Yes, that's just as relevant to the vast majority of CBers as the rest of the insanely upgraded weapons being used as examples here......</sarcasm>

PM, if that were really true then I wouldn't be vocal about the weapon allowance for instance, which I think is ridiculous in the amount of power it hides.

No, what I'm not for is cries of overpowered, when there is enough evidence that something isn't. Cries of overpowered when the person making them is actually carrying out worse examples - which is why I mentioned you being able to kill FIVE minions in ranged. No archer is capable of that.

Perhaps if you'd used your own strat as evidence of overpowered I might be more inclined to give your opinions a fair chance. But as it is, most of these posts smell of somebody looking over their shoulder and realizing their position isn't as solid as they would like.

Johnny,

Believe what you wish.

The purpose of my post was to point out an inequality in the damage archers do.

I was using Freed and me as examples since our weapons are very similar in size and out walls/tanks are similar as well.

If you think my posts are of someone looking over their shoulder, your far from the truth.

But how can you say the ELB and archery are not overpowered when my examples of damage show otherwise. How can someone using an elb similar in stats to my MH that does over 7 times the damage in missile then I do in melee not be overpowering? And my wall/tank is backed by a huge TOE to boot!

I do indeed believe the SOD is far overpowered now, but I need it to make sure I beat one person in particular.

Ever notice the title of my post was Missile damage instead of ELB damage?

I'm with johny here, not that there's a vote going or anything ;P

I'm with PM. 7x damage is too extreme. 2x damage would be reasonable. That way after 8 rounds it evens out. Actually less than that would be better since its a pretty solid gamble that most battles won't last out past 8 rounds. Oh! and I forgot the archer is still doing damage in melee, so that means it actually would take until round TEN or so before a bloodlust tank came out even at only 2x damage. At 7x damage.... Well you can go the entire 25 rounds of combat and your BL tank still hasn't done the damage the archer did in the 4 ranged rounds!

"Cries of overpowered when the person making them is actually carrying out worse example"

(PM, correct me if I'm wrong here..)

PM has been making it clear that the SOD deals way more damage than is logical.

He's using a big SOD because he isn't stupid.

The point of this thread is that you need to fight in ranged, and you need to do serious damage in ranged, and that isn't healthy for the game. PM is doing that with a SOD; others do it with an ELB. Just because he's doing it doesn't mean he doesn't want it to change. He's doing it because he _has_no_choice_.

You can say that a given piece of the game is overpowered, and use it to prove it. You can also say it and look at others using it to prove it. He's doing both, mainly because if he doesn't, he'll start losing. There's a post somewhere up above that says something to the effect of "can't beat em, join em". That's important.

If I started my NCB over today, you can bet your life that I'd make it a single TOA ELB-wielding DB-wearing Archer, and with my cash, I'd dominate. I'd use it as a platform to show how overpowered it is. I'd also use it to get to the top and stay there.

People have often used certain strats to prove their weakness (PM did it with CoC on several occasions, completely switching his setup to show that CoC doesn't work, and taking the MPR hit in the process.) What we are showing here is that PM is also using a certain strat to prove its dominance. Why is one different than the other?

"He's using a big SOD because he isn't stupid."

To clarify this here, ranged damage is overpowered. Ranger wants it to change. Until that happens, he *HAS* to make use of it, because *everyone else* is. No one should expect him to throw away his number one position just out of spite for the overpowered ranged damage.

I'm with PM and NS on this. NS, great posts... that's exactly what I've been thinking the whole time. PM gets accused of being self-serving because he uses his own fights as reference to why Missile damage is overpowered ... how else can he make his point? Buy tickets and sit in on other peoples fights with a paper and pencil? Anyways...

As I said before, if there wasn't a big advantage to single ToA ELB characters there wouldn't be so many (NUB's and NCB's alike). This shows that experienced characters are realizing that there is ELB's to take advantage of... and new characters are being advised to take advantage of this advantage...

Um, yeah... that sounds stupid.

I always saw change month as a way to balance out the game. And no better place to look for changes than the most popular strats, right? This is a good indicator that _something_ is overpowered whether its the ELB, Beleg's, or the ToA's PtH bonus.

Go ahead tear me up.

I won't even mention seekers... oh wait. Nevermind.

:p

PM may have said 'has missile damage gotten way out of hand', but to use his own words: 'The purpose of my post was to point out an inequality in the damage archers do.''

See that? Not SoD's, 'archers'.

PM isn't stupid. I'll never say that. But he has a history of railing against items that threaten his strat/position.

He didn't start this post with 'look what my SoD does, takes out five minions in ranged', instead he pointed out what damage an ELB does. Read the original post. This was never about ranged, it was always about archers vs melee tanks. It can be twisted all you want, but if it was about ranged why not use the most extreme example going? Several times in the post PM makes the point of Freed and other HoC archers being able to take out four minions in ranged. Meanwhile he can take out five. MM and FB can take out four minions in ranged as well.

But no mention of those. No, this was always about the ELB and archers.

Don't believe me? Read back through the post. The SoD was never mentioned in this post until I brought it up.

Interesting thoughts WoW.

However just to disprove what your typing:

I have said in numerous posts in the past that the SOD is far too powerful. The title of this post was missile not just the ELB. But if it will make you feel better, I will agree the ELB was the main focus. But agree that I have stated in quite a few past posts the SoD especially with ex shots is way overpowered also.

Since I already discussed the SoD and how it can destroy an entire team with 1 shot, I thought those reading this thread would remember that. But, alas, I am wrong. Seems people have very short memories or selective memories now-a-days.

NS is 100% correct as is DD in that I am using my own battles as reference since it is what I am seeing and can copy/paste. But numerous others in chat give the same type of numbers.

MM and FB can indeed take out 4 or 5 minions in ranged, however the damage they do is proportionate to their level and to the respective MPR of their characters. The missile damage is certainly not.

The "history" of railing against items that threaten my position is just utter crapola. Pure and simple. These items are unbalanced and most people see it.

Please do not tell me or anyone that using missile that does 7 or more time the damage of the same x melee weapon is good for the game.

Gee Johnny, wonder why your NCB is a TOA ELB using archer. Could it be that you know how utter overpowered they are? Are your posts self serving in that you want to keep the huge advantage TOA/ELB using tanks have? The dial points both ways my friend.

And, even though I have a large VB, I still believe they are far overpowered but again, that is well known and not for this thread.

BTW, I have "railed" against seekers from well before I was a mage, in fact when I was running TAB which as you know was a large TOA tank.

One point that I feel is being overlooked that I thought I made earlier (I might have been thinking it and not posting it) is that if you're going to scale ranged damage against melee, you should do it versus the bone and not the MH. I'm really hoping that I don't have to explain why that is the case.....

Lol, do you know why I run a ToA archer?

The ToA gives me PTH, which makes up for the fact that I simply cannot afford to up the PTH on my weapon, without losing out on damage or extra AC. I also use it because I'm too lazy to train on anything but a single stat if I can.

I've been using an ELB for over a year and a half, in fact since the archer tank was nerfed back in 2005. Back when it became a bit of an underdog.

I'm not running a mage team because, frankly, I find them too weak. I like physical damage. You'll also notice my guy isn't an archer or a bloodlust or anything. He's the most generic type of tank you can get. Just happens to use a bow. So I'm not even using him to his full potential.

Quite the picture of somebody looking to be 'uber' I think.

No, the reason I take the opposite side on this one is because I think 'overpowered' threads are overpowered.

I've seen so many 'overpowered' threads but generally they all boil down to this: His toys are better than my toys.

Not if it can fight up above it's weight. All my characters have punched well above their weight from mage to tank. UC is capable of fighting well above it's MPR. A few people did say it was overpowered, which was funny because a few weeks before everyone said how weak it was. But I couldn't beat everyone with it. Mikel may be able to fight up using an ELB, but I'm pretty sure he could fight up as well using bloodlust, or a mage team.

But he can be beaten. Freed can be beaten. So can the other archer teams in the top twenty. By mages and bloodlust tanks at that. The teams that according to you are further down the foodchain because ToA Elb archers are so good.

If somebody can come up at half your MPR with an average ELB and knock you off your top slot then I'll agree that ranged damage is overpowered. But if Freed can't do it with equipment that takes him way past your PR it doesn't look overpowered to me. And if it doesn't look overpowered or walk overpowered then as far as I'm concerned it's not overpowered.

And one last thing. Look through the character standings listings. Check out the top five chars for 1,2,3,4 minion types.

Physical damage in ranged has been this powerful since September. Six months. That's quite a long time in CB land. And yet the majority of those tanks in those standings are not using ELBs, are not archers.

So really the only evidence we have that ranged damage has gotten out of hand is Freed's huge ELB and PM's ability to kill five minions in four and sometimes three rounds.

Like I said, you're looking for balance for somebody. But isn't me, nor the vast majority of players in CB.

So unless someone can beat me, the item or skill set in question is not overpowered?

What rubbish!!

I live vs ELB's since I have a 410 AC/TOE combo.

Like I stated before, what is the balance where an elb can do millions of damage where a MH that is bigger cannot even do 1M damage?

Let us look at a character far less then 1/2 my MPR close to 1/3 my MPR:
The King of Pain, Str 500k, ELB x5400
Most Powerful Blow: 3,467,852

My MPB using my MH is 1.35 million or there abouts with a Str of 2.8M at the time.

But if you believe that it is appropriate that an elb does at least 7 times the damage of a comparable MH or Bone then nothing i can post will change your mind. If that is the way CB is leaning, I will again adapt or at least try to .

But... we have certainly got away from the main point I was trying to show. Missile damage is far too much, at least in my opinion.

Sry,

King of Pain's MPB is with a TOA therefore his str is about 1.4M or so.

I just want to say one thing about PM's points...

Yes, maybe it seems like he is "ranting" about things other than his own strategy...just belittling everything else so as to exalt his own stance...

But let's think this through. PM is a great tactician and strategist. I'll go ahead and say it if no one else will (but they will). So, that means, having weathered all kinds of attacks, PM has come up with an optimal, balanced solution to be Top Dog (and I don't mean DAWG).

So, it stands to reason that if he comes out against something, it is against imbalance. In other words, because he has faced a lot of varied stuff, when he "complains" about something it is BOTH something that causes him discomfit AND something that may be a tad bit out of whack (at least).

PM has not gotten where he is by game-created favors. Not to my knowledge, anyway. Jonathan says things like "good catch" and "fixed" when PM finds stuff. PM is not talking out his proverbial backside.

But when you are the best, it seems so. It seems like you are just talking against all that is not yourself when you are in such a position. Yeah. That's by definition. You would have to be. Just like the only people PM can fight are the people below him. Should we all give PM crap for picking on people below his score? Of course not. He can't help that. Again, it's by definition.

Is that a "blank check" for PM to say whatever he wants? No. I'll make sure he doesn't spout nonsense, for one. That's where the community comes in. But we all need to realize there aren't any "defaults". PM isn't just railing for the sake of railing. Novice isn't being abrasive just because he can. And Sutekh, like always, might very well be rambling after having one drink too many. But it's what we do, and none of us should be dismissed out of hand for it.

In other words, "can't we all just get along" _almost_ gets it right. The real phrase is: of course we should get along -- there's no real reason not to. Just relax and let it flow. Time and reason will level pretty much everything.

You can use me for an example, but please make sure that you don't leave off the details. First off, MPB is with an AoM, Tattoo, Named BG's +13, and pumped Seekers on defense and more than likely against little to no AC. <br><br>The BG's alone increase my damage output by 40%. I'm tailored 100% to Archer not Melee. I've played a Melee warrior, Evasion is not nearly as strong in Melee so you can hit more because the penalties are less.Also, my Minion is a single minion, no xp dilution amongst several minions, which makes me stronger and more capable of putting out more damage than teams my size in MPR.

Understood Mikel.

And you raise yet another point:

Archers and all missile weapon users can have a set of "boosted" ammo to use for defense while the melee tanks have nothing similar. Similar to the defensive seekers that I "rail" so much against.

But to compare apples to apples: My MPB was using my HOE, TSA, TG. All strength boosting items where my strength was over 4.3M. And still it was only 1.3 million. Of course mine also was vs a 0 AC minion on a non-TOE character just like yourself.

Also, your single minion has about as much xp in total as my largest minion-my tank.

So is it not disheartening for me to see someone 1/3 my MPR have a MPB 3 times my own? Just imagine when your MPR is 1/2 mine or even 2/3 mine.

Yes, before I stated my str was 2.8M at the time of my MPB. I just did the same with str of over 4.3M and my MPB did not raise much at all.

With the MH it is about 1.4M or so.

With my ToA on, giving me 750k ST.

Sting shot The Grid with Tennis ELBow [43547] Sting hit The Grid with Tennis ELBow [34094]

The Grid pulverized Sting with Boomstick [839767] The Grid draws strength from his weapon! [110167] The Grid crushed Sting with Boomstick [1175756]

vs your 410 AC and ToE. I didn't scratch you.

Even with a VB I didn't do all that much to you.
Sting scratched The Grid with An Electrum Lightsaber [33957] Sting scratched The Grid with An Electrum Lightsaber [32815]

Looks like I would do more damage in Melee with my VB than I would with my Elb, if they were of a Comparable x.